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#1151 BRG

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:38

Kamui gave us yet another masterclass in how to overtake cleanly and fairly in modern F1. The man is a breath of fresh air.

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#1152 harrypitts

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:40

got some on my first video attempt

youtube clip

try minutes 2:46, 3:01 4:36, similar moves to the inside under braking

#1153 harrypitts

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:43

No, not a fan of any of them. Saw that move plenty of times, and I don´t like it no matter who pulls it.


Just saw this sorry. Well I guess you have an issue with the rules of the sport then? Because I didn't notice and stewards enquiries or driver complaints about the overtakes? Or am I mistaken about this fact?

If so, you are entitled to your own opinion, but considering the direction F1 took in terms of bringing in fake drs overtakes, maybe we should treasure these moments under braking.

#1154 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:45

got some on my first video attempt

youtube clip

try minutes 2:46, 3:01 4:36, similar moves to the inside under braking


I never said he was only one doing it. I said I don´t like it, no matter who does it. It´s exactly the same move Sato tried on Trulli in Suzuka 2005, and he was smashed by the other drivers. It´s exactly the same move that Piquet did into the Canada hairpin in 2008, and he was smashed by other drivers.

You look cool if the other guy gets out of the way, but you don´t if he gives you only the room you deserve, and that has nothing to do with your driving.

#1155 repete

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:48

It was nice for KK to get a good race in again. Some nice overtakes as usual.

#1156 repete

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:50

I never said he was only one doing it. I said I don´t like it, no matter who does it. It´s exactly the same move Sato tried on Trulli in Suzuka 2005, and he was smashed by the other drivers. It´s exactly the same move that Piquet did into the Canada hairpin in 2008, and he was smashed by other drivers.

You look cool if the other guy gets out of the way, but you don´t if he gives you only the room you deserve, and that has nothing to do with your driving.

The move is a legit move, and if you do it right, its the other guys fault if they hit you. He pulls out late so they cant setup for a proper defensive line. And essentially makes them have to alter their line away from the apex and out wide.

#1157 harrypitts

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:56

I never said he was only one doing it. I said I don´t like it, no matter who does it. It´s exactly the same move Sato tried on Trulli in Suzuka 2005, and he was smashed by the other drivers. It´s exactly the same move that Piquet did into the Canada hairpin in 2008, and he was smashed by other drivers.

You look cool if the other guy gets out of the way, but you don´t if he gives you only the room you deserve, and that has nothing to do with your driving.


I see what you are saying. If I could make the rules clearer they would be something along these lines: "If a car is halfway or further alongside a car, when crossing an imaginary line 4 car lengths from the apex, then they have the rights to the inside of the corner, but yet must allow a car width on the outside at the exit of the corner if the outside car is alongside."

This would remove any ambiguity.

This is something similar to what is used in sailing.... I don't know why the don't make it clear like this in F1.

#1158 keiichi

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:57

I think the moves on Button and Rosberg were absolutely brilliant. I would love to see this guy in a trully competitive car just to see him pulling these overtakes more often, even though this year is getting difficult to establish wich is/are the trully competitive car(s).

#1159 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:58

Just saw this sorry. Well I guess you have an issue with the rules of the sport then? Because I didn't notice and stewards enquiries or driver complaints about the overtakes? Or am I mistaken about this fact?


You´re right. I have an issue with the way they handle this.

I don´t like that if the other guy gets out of the way it´s a cool pass... but if he gives you just the room you deserve, and you trip over him, you´ re considered to have caused an avoidable incident and punished. Even if the attacker has done exactly the same.

I´ll repeat: I don´t say it´s ilegal, nor asking for penalties. I just think it must be terribly annoying as a driver to have KK behind you knowing he does this so often.

If so, you are entitled to your own opinion, but considering the direction F1 took in terms of bringing in fake drs overtakes, maybe we should treasure these moments under braking.


Actually F1 is going the other direction. Yeah, passes like Grosjean on Rosberg are sad, but you can pass even between 7-8 and Campsa, which I had NEVER seen before. Stunning racing today everywhere on the circuit.


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#1160 Wander

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:07

In Finnish broadcast Mika Salo also complimented Kobayashi's overtake over Button saying that if you have to make contact, that's the right way to do it without compromising the race of yourself and your competitor.

The move was perfectly judged.

E: Salo's point was that you can touch with rims like that without causing an accident, while it's more dangerous if you get something like a contact of front wing into side pod.

Edited by Wander, 13 May 2012 - 22:10.


#1161 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:14

In Finnish broadcast Mika Salo also complimented Kobayashi's overtake over Button saying that if you have to make contact, that's the right way to do it without compromising the race of yourself and your competitor.

The move was perfectly judged.

E: Salo's point was that you can touch with rims like that without causing an accident, while it's more dangerous if you get something like a contact of front wing into side pod.


Brundle said the same in Canada 2008. He said Piquet didn´t hit square on tyre to tyre accidentally, that you aim for that in dive bomb moves. I don´t like these moves though.

And I have nothing against Kamui, he´s a nice guy and a stunning driver.


#1162 One

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:23

Wel done Kamui for today's race. We all lives his charging style and The touch likt this can BE à part of It. Gavins said That It could happened to J
Kamui as well so should be a fair play. I do think that it was ok today.

#1163 mich

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:05

I never said he was only one doing it. I said I don´t like it, no matter who does it. It´s exactly the same move Sato tried on Trulli in Suzuka 2005, and he was smashed by the other drivers. It´s exactly the same move that Piquet did into the Canada hairpin in 2008, and he was smashed by other drivers.

You look cool if the other guy gets out of the way, but you don´t if he gives you only the room you deserve, and that has nothing to do with your driving.


Kobayashi's line was perfect!
He didn't turn widly and rock-up his tyre.
Everything was different from Sato in 2005 Suzuka!

#1164 tabovilla

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:06

one of the best overtakes I've seen

#1165 Doughnut King

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:07

Good day for Kobayashi, some good non-DRS moves.

#1166 mclarensmps

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:09

Kamui's race put a huge smile across my face (along with Lewis' overtakes).

Just some fantastic racing from Kobayashi... he has to have the highest percentage of clean, ballsy overtakes in the current grid!

#1167 fisssssi

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:30

At the moment, Kobayashi's passing is the only thing sane about the F1 world.

Maldonado winning, Mark Webber not finishing in 4th... in such a bizarre race, seeing Kobayashi pull of those nice moves was almost nostalgic.

BTW, he's just 3 points off Perez now :up:

#1168 jj2728

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:37

Kobayashi is one balls out racer that's for sure.

#1169 HP

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 00:38

You´re right. I have an issue with the way they handle this.

I don´t like that if the other guy gets out of the way it´s a cool pass... but if he gives you just the room you deserve, and you trip over him, you´ re considered to have caused an avoidable incident and punished. Even if the attacker has done exactly the same.

I´ll repeat: I don´t say it´s ilegal, nor asking for penalties. I just think it must be terribly annoying as a driver to have KK behind you knowing he does this so often.

It's always annoying being overtaken :p No matter the style. If Kamui is behind a driver then that other driver must know that he has to cover the inside or else he's simply a fool or incompetent as a driver. Being generous we might agree on saying that the other car wasn't quick enough to keep Kamui behind..

Actually F1 is going the other direction. Yeah, passes like Grosjean on Rosberg are sad, but you can pass even between 7-8 and Campsa, which I had NEVER seen before. Stunning racing today everywhere on the circuit.

The more passes of any style are being possible, without making it too easy is fine with me.

In any case, well done Kobayashi-San.


#1170 turssi

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 00:47

Any vids on Koba's overtakes on Button & Rosberg?

#1171 KavB

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 02:51

At the moment, Kobayashi's passing is the only thing sane about the F1 world.

Maldonado winning, Mark Webber not finishing in 4th... in such a bizarre race, seeing Kobayashi pull of those nice moves was almost nostalgic.

BTW, he's just 3 points off Perez now :up:

I thought after Malaysia that Kobayashi would struggle to get anywhere near Perez in the standings! He's been consistently scoring though so it's not too surprising.

#1172 aray

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 04:22

pity,despite being such a consistent performer he seems to no top team's radar.....

#1173 MinardiSpeed

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 05:06

what a joy to watch, i hope the sauber can stay competitive so we can see more of these performance from koba-san.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

#1174 muramasa

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:27

Koba clearly didn't get the 2012 overtaking memo that all overtaking maneuvers must be performed under drs and completed well before the corner /sarcasm

It was a decent effort and some nice maneuvers where they weren't expected.

actually it was more a forced choice. At Barcelona Sauber somehow couldnt use DRS zone at home straight. KK's time was faster than JB/NR but he just couldnt get close to the car in front despite DRS activated. So he had to find somewhere else to try overtaking. Maybe looking at pace drop of JB and NR after the pass, he wouldve passed both eventually more easily, but that's only hindsight, the racing is about "go for it".


You´re right. I have an issue with the way they handle this.

I don´t like that if the other guy gets out of the way it´s a cool pass... but if he gives you just the room you deserve, and you trip over him, you´ re considered to have caused an avoidable incident and punished. Even if the attacker has done exactly the same.

I´ll repeat: I don´t say it´s ilegal, nor asking for penalties. I just think it must be terribly annoying as a driver to have KK behind you knowing he does this so often.

Racing this guy would make me nervous. He goes for passes that are impossible and barges people off the way. He goes down the inside even if he the can´t hold his car near the apex during the corner.

Basically you can only let him go or crash out of the race without doing anything wrong.


I havent seen KK's overtakes this race yet, even replays (because both passes happened to happen when I left my seat to get some food and do some choirs), but was it any more uncomfortable than other drivers? Rosberg's move is often daring, Webber's defense is often cruel, Lewis, Shumi, ...I can think of many. Yet how often Kamui actually make incidents? I've simply no idea what you mean by let him go or crash. He's one of the drivers who make fewest number of incidents.
With DRS, so many passes happening, quite afew bits and pieces of car bodywork flying around and quite a few incidents occuring, but Kamui is involved in none of them. Also, "he does this so often"...does he? I dont remember any move that was "close" by him, and actually I cant recall any memorable passes by him recently.


Edited by muramasa, 14 May 2012 - 19:27.


#1175 KinoNoNo

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:28

The pass on JB reminded me of how bike racers often pass.

As the guy is about to reach the apex they slot their bike into the space forcing the guy to stand his bike back up, or they start rubbing farings.



#1176 DracoN

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 18:33

"Rim Kiss" is kobayashi style. Nice clean overtakes from him.

#1177 Afterburner

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:08

Basically you can only let him go or crash out of the race without doing anything wrong.

Sort of like a Kobayashi Maru scenario, then? :p

#1178 midgrid

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:49

Who needs DRS? Good to see Koba solidly back in the points.

#1179 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:05

...but was it any more uncomfortable than other drivers? Rosberg's move is often daring, Webber's defense is often cruel, Lewis, Shumi, ...I can think of many.



Good points buddy. I´m also scared sometimes but some idiotic stuff these guys do from time to time, yet I didn´t complain :lol: . But this was not meant to be an individual attack on Koba or anything. Just stating the fact that having him behind me would make me nervous. He attacks from a terribly long way, in situations the guy in front can might not even looking in the mirrors not feeling under any threat... and if you see it comming all you can do is get out of his way. :lol:

Yet how often Kamui actually make incidents? I've simply no idea what you mean by let him go or crash.


True. He isn´t getting into too much trouble actually :well: Drivers like Grosjean are doing less spectacular stuff but looking much less safe.

"Letting him go or crash" means that if you fight him in a fair way -giving him room, but only a car´s width- you´ll get crashed into. You either give him an enormous gap on the inside to avoid him drifting wide into you, or get hitted. But he is very smart, when he attacks even if it is a far try he always manages to get fully alongside and contact isn´t dangerous, he doesn´t ever put half a nose in there and spin people.

[Also, "he does this so often"...does he? I dont remember any move that was "close" by him, and actually I cant recall any memorable passes by him recently.


Well, he does divebomb lots of times, that´s for sure. I remember a handful of moves on the Suzuka uphill hairpin that were like this ones in the very same race. Not even in range for a reasonable attack, he gets brave, launches it down the inside, and barges people wide.

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#1180 pingu666

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:24

I think he pops it far enough alongside that its fair, sure he surprises the other driver, but thats the point, partly :)


#1181 Cavani

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:32

the problem with kobayashi is that one race he qualify 5th or 6th and then finishes 15th or worse , another race he starts way down and comes charging for a great finish. the same problem with perez , consistency is very important but neither of the two seems to get it

#1182 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:33

I think he pops it far enough alongside that its fair, sure he surprises the other driver, but thats the point, partly :)


I agree. That´s the key for the success in these moves from him.

If he gets fully alongide, there´ll be less danger in case of contact, and also the other guy will be more ready to go as wide as Koba pushes him: in the outside and with a perfect overlap, if you get pushed wide then you have no option but to stop turning. If he falls short and ends up half alongside, he´ll spin people, the others won´t give him the big room he needs when he starts drifting wide.

#1183 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:35

the problem with kobayashi is that one race he qualify 5th or 6th and then finishes 15th or worse , another race he starts way down and comes charging for a great finish. the same problem with perez , consistency is very important but neither of the two seems to get it


I actually see them both as good drivers. Luckily Sauber built a good car and they can fight near the leaders, so being stuck on sauber isn´t exactly a problem now...

#1184 pingu666

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 04:34

I think its just as much a visaul thing aswell, part way alongside and the other guy my well not notice your there...

#1185 muramasa

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:31

Good points buddy. I´m also scared sometimes but some idiotic stuff these guys do from time to time, yet I didn´t complain :lol: . But this was not meant to be an individual attack on Koba or anything. Just stating the fact that having him behind me would make me nervous. He attacks from a terribly long way, in situations the guy in front can might not even looking in the mirrors not feeling under any threat... and if you see it comming all you can do is get out of his way. :lol:

Again, when and how often Kamui did like that and is it exclusive to Kamui?

"Letting him go or crash" means that if you fight him in a fair way -giving him room, but only a car´s width- you´ll get crashed into. You either give him an enormous gap on the inside to avoid him drifting wide into you, or get hitted. But he is very smart, when he attacks even if it is a far try he always manages to get fully alongside and contact isn´t dangerous, he doesn´t ever put half a nose in there and spin people.

He seldom do it and never actually caused accident. Try to dive inside and, 1.go wider and push others off, either abit or quite, but succeed, or 2.overshoot too much and re-overtaken by X line, happen often every GP. Just common sight and not exclusive to Kamui.


Well, he does divebomb lots of times, that´s for sure.

nope, that's a complete false. I'd even call it a lie.

I remember a handful of moves on the Suzuka uphill hairpin that were like this ones in the very same race. Not even in range for a reasonable attack, he gets brave, launches it down the inside, and barges people wide.

um that Suzuka was 2010. now it's 2012. Sure he does this oh so often..

I said many times but that Suzuka overtakes were nothing but logic/physics/science. For corners like hairpin, usual line is to go round the corner using the track width as wide as possible and take out-in-out without riding on curb. And there's another way to approach, that is go straight into the apex and make a sharp turn and exit the corner at deeper point. The former is overall faster, but if you focus on first half of the corner the latter approach is way faster as going straight / sharp turn allows you make significantly later and harder braking compared to "round" line. This way you can slip in and line up alongside the competitor way before apex, so that the competitor can see (he's watching apex so he cannot miss it).
It's just a variation of "normal" overtakings. In fact you're more likely to cause accident at faster and "normal" corners because it's more difficult to get enough speed difference to go side-by-side. When one car comes inside of another car gradually, the car in front is less likely to notice, and both cars are more likely to "leave it to others" and either shut the door or stay there stubbornly.
Moves like Kamui's at Suzuka 2010 look daring and barging another car wide from outside but actually it can be explained by logic instead of sth like "oh jeez it was nearly, wth he's doing".



#1186 muramasa

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:36

the problem with kobayashi is that one race he qualify 5th or 6th and then finishes 15th or worse , another race he starts way down and comes charging for a great finish. the same problem with perez , consistency is very important but neither of the two seems to get it

get the impression like that because you're not looking at what's going on closely.
They never did poorly mysteriously or for no reason. Every time they've done poor, there's good and obvious reasons.



#1187 Bunchies

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 14:51

get the impression like that because you're not looking at what's going on closely.
They never did poorly mysteriously or for no reason. Every time they've done poor, there's good and obvious reasons.


True Kobayashi and Sergio are both very consistent in their performance. If one of them is having an issue, it's usually a car/tire problem.

#1188 repete

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 18:50

Very, very risky! We've seen this year with Kimi and others that it is easier than last year to lose position. Vettel was SO close to going off the cliff apparently, and had the SC not come out, he would have certainly been 2nd, or even 3rd if JB had it in him.

Vettel was racing Alonso, respectful and brilliant.

Can you really imagine the same further down the field. What about KK? What I am trying to say is that when you are racing such an opponent as Alonso you know you have a driver who will respect you, yet punish you. With KK you have a driver who will punish you, or drive into you. If I was one-stopping I would not like to be in the situation of the latter. People easily get greedy at Monaco.

1 stopper? TBH I cant see it happening, then again I am not a strategist

i stole this post from the mclaren thread.

If by KK punishing you, you mean passing you if you leave the door open then yes. if you mean crashing into you and taking each other out, you are mistaken.

#1189 Bunchies

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 05:50

i stole this post from the mclaren thread.

If by KK punishing you, you mean passing you if you leave the door open then yes. if you mean crashing into you and taking each other out, you are mistaken.


It looks like none of those guys really watch the way he races. I think his racecraft is top driver quality. Certainly a cut above the other drivers in the midfield.

Edited by Bunchies, 20 May 2012 - 05:50.


#1190 Nemo29E

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:34

The important thing with those passes is he gets his car in front and on the inside, its risky as he leaves it late (he seemed down on top speed so had to pass like this) but as long as he judges it as he has been there is no issue. As the guy on the outside can clearly see he must give the space as the corner is already gone. Someone mentioned it, its much like the block passes in Motogp.

Anyway until he gets it wrong I do not think anyone can have a go as he has done nothing wrong, bitch when he tags the rear of someone when not enough alongside.

#1191 Bunchies

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 15:21

Yes, since his debut, none of the other drivers have ever said anything about his racing. They know that he races very hard, but he is also fair. He's not reckless, and every move he makes is well judged. He definitely thinks about the things he is doing.

#1192 muramasa

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 17:47


Maybe PNSD was talking about KK pushing off Sutil last year at Monaco, but both escaped and finished the race still collecting good points anyway. To find another example of KK making rough contact with other cars in a battle, you have to go far back to Suzuka 2010, the first overtaking attempt against Alg at Hairpin (the other 2-3 passes at the same corner were totally fine).

Neither cases he caused no fatal damage to either his car nor opponent's car anyway. So, in his entire F1 career, he caused opponents retire or damage that requires pitstop only once (Nakajima jr at Brazil 2009), and never retired himself, due to his fault in a close battle.

Just offhand, to get perspective, JB-Alonso collision at Canada last year resulted in Alonso retiring...JB just few races back run into the back of HRT, which significantly ruined JB's race...Alonso certainly is fantastic, I cannot recall any incidents by him offhand, yet if it's allowed to go back to 2010, he damaged JB's rear at the start of Monza (iirc). About Lewis and Massa for last year, i guess I dont need to say anything. What's irony is, to borrow PNSD's words, even JB respects you less than Kobayashi does.


#1193 midgrid

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:22

Edd Straw: Kobayashi would be the ideal short-term replacement for Massa.

Straw argues that, although Kobayashi may be slightly lacking in ultimate pace compared to Alonso, he is more than capable of jumping in at the deep end and producing decent results without becoming overwhelmed or overawed, as demonstrated by his Toyota drives in 2009. Smacks of damning with faint praise to me.

Early days get, but Kobayashi and Pérez both seem to have good pace so far around the streets of Monaco.

#1194 sofarapartguy

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:32

Edd Straw: Kobayashi would be the ideal short-term replacement for Massa.

Straw argues that, although Kobayashi may be slightly lacking in ultimate pace compared to Alonso, he is more than capable of jumping in at the deep end and producing decent results without becoming overwhelmed or overawed, as demonstrated by his Toyota drives in 2009. Smacks of damning with faint praise to me.

Early days get, but Kobayashi and Pérez both seem to have good pace so far around the streets of Monaco.


Well Koba really looks like a driver who's aggressive driving style with a lot of sliding allows him to drive around any car's balance, what leads to much less time for adaptation. But why sould he go to Ferrari when Sauber is comfortably at the front of the grid? Move to Ferrari can leave him without a seat for 2013, so no way he will go for that I believe - he is no "Ferrari is a legend" kind of person.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 24 May 2012 - 10:32.


#1195 Talisman

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:48

Edd Straw: Kobayashi would be the ideal short-term replacement for Massa.

Straw argues that, although Kobayashi may be slightly lacking in ultimate pace compared to Alonso, he is more than capable of jumping in at the deep end and producing decent results without becoming overwhelmed or overawed, as demonstrated by his Toyota drives in 2009. Smacks of damning with faint praise to me.

Early days get, but Kobayashi and Pérez both seem to have good pace so far around the streets of Monaco.


Interesting article where Straw repeatedly says that Kobayashi is several tenths off the pace compared not to Alonso but to Perez, Maldonaldo and di Resta. Although I agree with other aspects of what he says, I simply don't see this huge gulf in pace between Kamui, his teammate or other rising stars.

#1196 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 14:40

Interesting article where Straw repeatedly says that Kobayashi is several tenths off the pace compared not to Alonso but to Perez, Maldonaldo and di Resta. Although I agree with other aspects of what he says, I simply don't see this huge gulf in pace between Kamui, his teammate or other rising stars.

di Resta is a rising star just because of his hype. Can't really compare the impact Kamui had in F1 to that of di Resta...from a sporting perspective

#1197 tarmac

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 15:56

Has anyone ever hit that barrier on turn one?

#1198 pingu666

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:30

im sure they have before, hope the team change the suspension bits



#1199 Skinnyguy

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:48

im sure they have before, hope the team change the suspension bits


Sure, he´ll be allowed to, it´d be unsafe for him and the rest to start with it damaged in any way.

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#1200 midgrid

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 00:11

Has anyone ever hit that barrier on turn one?


Senna and Herbert have both hit the barrier there, but as a result of losing control under braking. Surer also hit that section of barrier due to a collision with Warwick in 1983.