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#1501 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 00:59

I'll go out on a limb and speculate that Montezemolo's "not experienced enough" comments about Perez were because Ferrari was eyeing Kamui to replace Massa in the event Massa was let go.

I like this thinking and would love this to happen, but I don't think it will :well: . I might be making an assumption here, but I don't think the 'not experienced enough' comments are limited just to race starts. Perez is only 22 and still doesn't have the life experience or driving experience of others. Take Di Resta for example, only 2 more races than Perez but has plenty of experience from consistently challenging for the DTM title - which isn't easy to do. So who knows, perhaps Kamui is in with a shout.

Kobayashi is not necessarilly out of Sauber, if I read Kaltenborn correctly. She merely thinks that knowing his potential, which they do, will influence their decision and is more important than a single (good) result. Cool business talk; no problem with that.

Noticed your edit later, but when Kaltenborn was interviewed by Brundle and Herbert (I think) her demeanour suggested that Kamui would no longer be with them next and not even his performance in Suzuka would change that. Meaning you can read it two ways, either he already has a drive lined up or as his comments suggest he really has no idea what he's doing next year :| . I hope it's the former.

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#1502 DanardiF1

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:19

How in the hell is this guy's job in jeopardy? The grid is littered with underperforming drivers, and this is not one of them.


It's crazy. One of the most exciting drivers of the last 3 years, and is potentially out on his arse for next year. The thing with Kamui is that I think people have an inbuilt stereotype of a Japanese driver, in that they are very fast, but they crash a lot and aren't particularly reliable. Now I don't subscribe to this (mainly because if you look at any country's driver output you can pick and choose enough who fit that bill), and Kamui's performances are as far from this idea as possible, but is it possible that some people in the paddock are still looking at Japanese drivers with an element of the 'crash-happy fast driver from the East' stereotype?

If so, that's very sad.

Koba is clearly one of the more mature drivers on the grid. Insanely risky sometimes, but those risks are very highly calculated, as evidenced by how often a pass he attempts comes off. He is also very good at executing complicated strategies, which was odd in that Perez seemed to get the better run of Sauber's strategy calls this year, despite Kamui doing some great things over the 2 preceding years. Qualifying is sometimes a struggle, but he seems to have worked on that this year.

#1503 mich

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:57

It's crazy. One of the most exciting drivers of the last 3 years, and is potentially out on his arse for next year. The thing with Kamui is that I think people have an inbuilt stereotype of a Japanese driver, in that they are very fast, but they crash a lot and aren't particularly reliable. Now I don't subscribe to this (mainly because if you look at any country's driver output you can pick and choose enough who fit that bill), and Kamui's performances are as far from this idea as possible, but is it possible that some people in the paddock are still looking at Japanese drivers with an element of the 'crash-happy fast driver from the East' stereotype?


Japanese stereotype? It's just Sato, isn't he?
He showed many overtakes in exchange for so crazy run and so many easy mistake that you thought Japanese driver was danger.
In my memory, Kazuki Nakajima in F1 was too slow to do something crazy and impress you "he might do something!?";but in Le Mans this year he was so crazy that he attacked Nissan Delta...
He dropped out in Q1 or Q2 against Q3 of his teammate Rosberg, started with heavy fuel tank, ran around P10-15 without a dog fight, and finished no points.

Anyway, Kamui Kobayashi is the best driver in Japanese.
More important things are not how many people think he was danger like Sato but how many people believe he is as fast as Checo and think the difference between them were just lucky or unlucky.

Edited by mich, 09 October 2012 - 03:57.


#1504 Craven Morehead

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:51

I would be very, very disappointed if Kobayashi wasn't on the grid next year. Would really piss me off actually.

#1505 sofarapartguy

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:58

I would be very, very disappointed if Kobayashi wasn't on the grid next year. Would really piss me off actually.


Something will be very wrong with F1 if Koba doesn't get a drive next year.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 09 October 2012 - 06:58.


#1506 Peat

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:39

I would be very, very disappointed if Kobayashi wasn't on the grid next year. Would really piss me off actually.


Yep, me too. I'm usually of the 'hard luck sunshine' opinion, but it would be criminal not to have him on the grid. Fast, agressive, delivers and now has a decent amount of experience under his belt. He's a keeper.

As for Toyota links - he never raced in Japan in junior formulae as he came to Europe very young. Thus he has no current relationships/ties. Can't see there being much trouble developing those though.

#1507 Bocmax

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:59

Kamui is awesome and can become a major contender, that's been clear from the start. Now a big Japanese company like Rakuten who are trying to internationalise would do well to give Kamui some money.

#1508 Sakae

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:04

Nissan-Renault has Infiniti logo on RBR, but Japan, having their own son representing his nation accross the Globe would not be a such bad idea, nor I would see conflict of interest should the automaker support him as well.

Edited by Sakae, 09 October 2012 - 08:05.


#1509 Talisman

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:48

Nissan-Renault has Infiniti logo on RBR, but Japan, having their own son representing his nation accross the Globe would not be a such bad idea, nor I would see conflict of interest should the automaker support him as well.


Does Infiniti want to project a strong Japanese identity on their brand globally? I'm not sure they do.

Unfortunately I don't see Kamui getting Japanese sponsorship. Despite the great crowds at Suzuka its difficult to appreciate that F1 is a minority interest in Japan. I think the behaviour of the fans at Suzuka is more due to the Japanese trait of having one or two interests that you're really into and REALLY getting into them and shouldn't be taken as a broader interest in the sport across the country. Also because of Japan's legendary support for Senna its again easy to overestimate the level of current support. No Japanese driver has ever come close to having similar levels of fame as the Brazilian within Japan.

In a sense its similar to American support for F1. I doubt Austin will have much difficulty filling its stands with truly passionate American crowds but only a fool would believe therefore that F1 is well known let alone followed in the US.

I'm posting this on Tuesday morning London time. I've just checked the Asahi Shimbun online edition in Japanese, sports page (this is one of the main Japanese papers). Looking at the headings there's still a London 2012 Olympics tag alongside football, baseball and high school baseball. F1 is not there to be seen unless you dig much deeper which reveals a grand total of five articles on Suzuka, two of which are about businesses running promotions there. There just isn't much interest.

This should put things into perspective and it makes Autosport's myth that Honda started Aguri because it feared a backlash from Japanese fans from sacking Sato look even more bizarre.

My family have tried to support young Japanese drivers coming to the UK in lower formulae in finding sponsorship but its very difficult as most of them are not keen on looking outside the expat Japanese community for backing (and there isn't much free money there either). If Kamui is to find sponsorship he'd be much better off trading on his reputation for being exciting than on his nationality. Maybe Red Bull would be a good fit?;)

Edited by Talisman, 09 October 2012 - 08:49.


#1510 Sakae

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:10

Does Infiniti want to project a strong Japanese identity on their brand globally? I'm not sure they do.

Unfortunately I don't see Kamui getting Japanese sponsorship. Despite the great crowds at Suzuka its difficult to appreciate that F1 is a minority interest in Japan. I think the behaviour of the fans at Suzuka is more due to the Japanese trait of having one or two interests that you're really into and REALLY getting into them and shouldn't be taken as a broader interest in the sport across the country. Also because of Japan's legendary support for Senna its again easy to overestimate the level of current support. No Japanese driver has ever come close to having similar levels of fame as the Brazilian within Japan.

In a sense its similar to American support for F1. I doubt Austin will have much difficulty filling its stands with truly passionate American crowds but only a fool would believe therefore that F1 is well known let alone followed in the US.

I'm posting this on Tuesday morning London time. I've just checked the Asahi Shimbun online edition in Japanese, sports page (this is one of the main Japanese papers). Looking at the headings there's still a London 2012 Olympics tag alongside football, baseball and high school baseball. F1 is not there to be seen unless you dig much deeper which reveals a grand total of five articles on Suzuka, two of which are about businesses running promotions there. There just isn't much interest.

This should put things into perspective and it makes Autosport's myth that Honda started Aguri because it feared a backlash from Japanese fans from sacking Sato look even more bizarre.

My family have tried to support young Japanese drivers coming to the UK in lower formulae in finding sponsorship but its very difficult as most of them are not keen on looking outside the expat Japanese community for backing (and there isn't much free money there either). If Kamui is to find sponsorship he'd be much better off trading on his reputation for being exciting than on his nationality. Maybe Red Bull would be a good fit?;)

Thanks for insightful and probably more accurate assessment then from rest of us. My time in Japan was focused on integration with the land and its people (full time job if done properly), thus F1 was really down on a priority list. A few of my office colleagues knew about my passion, and they pleased me in our conversations. I do agree that Kobayashi-san could do no better than strive for consistency in his performance first, and exhibit flashes of greater potential. Results would follow.

#1511 Peat

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:20

As for Toyota links - he never raced in Japan in junior formulae as he came to Europe very young. Thus he has no current relationships/ties. Can't see there being much trouble developing those though.


aaaaand i just remembered that it was Toyota who gave him his debut. Whooops.... :blush:

#1512 Bocmax

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:25

Does Infiniti want to project a strong Japanese identity on their brand globally? I'm not sure they do.

Unfortunately I don't see Kamui getting Japanese sponsorship. Despite the great crowds at Suzuka its difficult to appreciate that F1 is a minority interest in Japan. I think the behaviour of the fans at Suzuka is more due to the Japanese trait of having one or two interests that you're really into and REALLY getting into them and shouldn't be taken as a broader interest in the sport across the country. Also because of Japan's legendary support for Senna its again easy to overestimate the level of current support. No Japanese driver has ever come close to having similar levels of fame as the Brazilian within Japan.

In a sense its similar to American support for F1. I doubt Austin will have much difficulty filling its stands with truly passionate American crowds but only a fool would believe therefore that F1 is well known let alone followed in the US.

I'm posting this on Tuesday morning London time. I've just checked the Asahi Shimbun online edition in Japanese, sports page (this is one of the main Japanese papers). Looking at the headings there's still a London 2012 Olympics tag alongside football, baseball and high school baseball. F1 is not there to be seen unless you dig much deeper which reveals a grand total of five articles on Suzuka, two of which are about businesses running promotions there. There just isn't much interest.

This should put things into perspective and it makes Autosport's myth that Honda started Aguri because it feared a backlash from Japanese fans from sacking Sato look even more bizarre.

My family have tried to support young Japanese drivers coming to the UK in lower formulae in finding sponsorship but its very difficult as most of them are not keen on looking outside the expat Japanese community for backing (and there isn't much free money there either). If Kamui is to find sponsorship he'd be much better off trading on his reputation for being exciting than on his nationality. Maybe Red Bull would be a good fit?;)


That's why I think it makes sense for one of the few outward looking Japanese companies like Uniqlo or Rakuten to align themselves with Kamui. Could be a big win/win there.


#1513 Jimisgod

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:06

It's a bit annoying that Japanese manufacturers and companies were intent to slip vaguely qualified drivers into an F1 seat since about the late 1980s, and then all but evaporated after 2009. Now a lot of people remember the Inoues, Ides, Yamamotos and even Kazuki Nakajimas and likely apply the same thinking to Kamui.

Katayama had years of support from the Japanese wing of Mild Seven. Nakajima Snr. brought Honda engines to Lotus where he did little of note. Nakano did not very much in a Prost drive he was mooted to have because of Honda connections.

Now Kobayashi shows regular speed greater than that of his team mate, has actually achieved more than any other Japanese driver did in his 3 short years and looks like one of the top 10 on the grid - and the sponsors seem to not be helping him in the least. If Sauber does not renew his contract I will get no greater satisfaction than seeing Sauber score zero points in 2013.

And I am aware this might sound culturally insensitive to expect Japanese sponsors to act in a certain way, but the F1 grid in the midfield is now determined to a degree by the nationalist money coming in from Mexican, Venezuelan, French and Brazilian backers anyway.

Edited by Jimisgod, 09 October 2012 - 10:09.


#1514 KinoNoNo

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:19

I'd rather have Kamui have a crack at LMP than have him down in the back of the grid ghetto.

Damn first we lose Kubica and now it looks there's no place for Kamui :mad:

#1515 muramasa

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:29

Does Infiniti want to project a strong Japanese identity on their brand globally? I'm not sure they do.

it's shame coz if it is a right era, he's no doubt a competitive driver that needs no sponsor or manufacturer backing to survive in F1 and earn at least decent seat like Sauber, FI or Lotus.

Unfortunately I don't see Kamui getting Japanese sponsorship. Despite the great crowds at Suzuka its difficult to appreciate that F1 is a minority interest in Japan. I think the behaviour of the fans at Suzuka is more due to the Japanese trait of having one or two interests that you're really into and REALLY getting into them and shouldn't be taken as a broader interest in the sport across the country. Also because of Japan's legendary support for Senna its again easy to overestimate the level of current support. No Japanese driver has ever come close to having similar levels of fame as the Brazilian within Japan.

Yeah, and it was sad to see empty white boards on pit building (just Pirelli stickers), that dont look good.
There was huge F1 boom in Senna/Prost era, but F1 has been minority in Japan for long time actually.
Even in UK F1's not that popular and common is it? I never really felt any F1/motorsport culture in UK (altho I know there indeed is), and none of my friends there have deep interest in F1. Almost sure that Football/cricket/etc are far more common and popular there. Also F1 TV rating is falling there isnt it?
As for Japan, even without Senna or japanese manufacturers/drivers, F1 has been "ok" here, but, overall, suffering from internationally common phenomenon - diversifying interest that is. (I imagine UK too to quite a degree)

Maybe I have to point out that I cannot help but feel Senna's popularity in Japan is quite overrated by non-Japanese tbh. Senna's popularity was worldwide, and Japanese/Asians tend to be crazy about western actor/actress/athletes/musicians/etc, like Beckham, Johnny Depp, Tom Cruise, Beatles, and so on. So in perspective it's understandble or not that much special to Senna.
Or, to put it another way, NO foreign athletes ever got such level of enthusiasm in Japan. Senna's popularity was synergy created by 1.his heroic, mysterious and passionate yet benevolent character/attitude/look, 2.invincible Honda engine, 3.penetration of F1 at that time since start of Japan GP at Suzuka in 1987. There were every single factors required to enable such exponential boost. IIRC TV hadnt started showing every race until as late as circa 1990, F1 had only 15 or so races a year, once 2-3 weeks unlike baseball etc, and of course japan GP is only once a year... in such situation, Senna became popular that much in a space of just few years here. Such thing never happened in Japan and will never happen.


In a sense its similar to American support for F1. I doubt Austin will have much difficulty filling its stands with truly passionate American crowds but only a fool would believe therefore that F1 is well known let alone followed in the US.

I'm posting this on Tuesday morning London time. I've just checked the Asahi Shimbun online edition in Japanese, sports page (this is one of the main Japanese papers). Looking at the headings there's still a London 2012 Olympics tag alongside football, baseball and high school baseball. F1 is not there to be seen unless you dig much deeper which reveals a grand total of five articles on Suzuka, two of which are about businesses running promotions there. There just isn't much interest.

Mojor newspapers like Yomiuri, Asahi and Mainichi had never reported F1 (even in 00s and 90s) in detail (just mention it very short), and that's nothing to do with level of public interest. It's just that it's been like that. (Only Chunichi sports shimbun report in decent detail)
But many online news outlet report F1, and news on Kamui's podium made headlines at major web portals and news congregation sites.
Also as for TV, only Fuji network (that has F1 licence here) report on F1, other tv stations never ever have reported F1 here.
I dont know what the reasons and rules are for these.. are there any contract that only allow Fuji TV to report F1? Using F1 footage and pics is too expensive? I'm not sure.
Positive news is that number of audience increased this year from last year, and it looks there are alot of new, younger age fans.

anyway,

This should put things into perspective and it makes Autosport's myth that Honda started Aguri because it feared a backlash from Japanese fans from sacking Sato look even more bizarre.

exactly, that's TOTAL BS and myth that EVERYONE here seems to believe. "established/informed/knowledgable" media and jorno saying that is really embarrassing.

My family have tried to support young Japanese drivers coming to the UK in lower formulae in finding sponsorship but its very difficult as most of them are not keen on looking outside the expat Japanese community for backing (and there isn't much free money there either). If Kamui is to find sponsorship he'd be much better off trading on his reputation for being exciting than on his nationality. Maybe Red Bull would be a good fit?;)

I hoped honda and toyota continued driver program...
After Lehman shock, many Japanese companies are opting to focus resources on cost cutting and development (of green technology esp), so they're spending less on ads. Also they are facing this harsh global low cost competition, besides 311 didnt help either.
Many ad boards used to fill Suzuka circuit, but this year it was really scarce, even pitlane ad spaces were empty, only Pirelli stickers as i mentioned earlier...it's very sad.
As Bocmax implied, I think supporting Kamui can be good global publicity boost for companies like komatsu, canon etc. There's still stereotype view towards him as "japanese driver", which i always criticize, but at the same time I can see Kamui's not only liked but also genuinely recognized as "F1 driver" and rated high by general, broader F1 fans. Of course I take such reputation for granted coz Ive been watching his performance closely and know he's good already, but still glad to see that. Supporting driver like him cannot be bad PR, I think they are wasting good opportunity.


#1516 Icicle

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 13:05

Sauber and F1 needs a driver like Kobayashi.

#1517 UPRC

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 13:16

It's very telling when there's pretty much 100% universal agreement that a driver shouldn't be dropped by his team for the following season.

Stay with us Kamui, you're a fan favourite for all the right reasons. :up:

#1518 Vickyy

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 13:25

it's shame coz if it is a right era, he's no doubt a competitive driver that needs no sponsor or manufacturer backing to survive in F1 and earn at least decent seat like Sauber, FI or Lotus.


Yeah, and it was sad to see empty white boards on pit building (just Pirelli stickers), that dont look good.
There was huge F1 boom in Senna/Prost era, but F1 has been minority in Japan for long time actually.
Even in UK F1's not that popular and common is it? I never really felt any F1/motorsport culture in UK (altho I know there indeed is), and none of my friends there have deep interest in F1. Almost sure that Football/cricket/etc are far more common and popular there. Also F1 TV rating is falling there isnt it?
As for Japan, even without Senna or japanese manufacturers/drivers, F1 has been "ok" here, but, overall, suffering from internationally common phenomenon - diversifying interest that is. (I imagine UK too to quite a degree)

Maybe I have to point out that I cannot help but feel Senna's popularity in Japan is quite overrated by non-Japanese tbh. Senna's popularity was worldwide, and Japanese/Asians tend to be crazy about western actor/actress/athletes/musicians/etc, like Beckham, Johnny Depp, Tom Cruise, Beatles, and so on. So in perspective it's understandble or not that much special to Senna.
Or, to put it another way, NO foreign athletes ever got such level of enthusiasm in Japan. Senna's popularity was synergy created by 1.his heroic, mysterious and passionate yet benevolent character/attitude/look, 2.invincible Honda engine, 3.penetration of F1 at that time since start of Japan GP at Suzuka in 1987. There were every single factors required to enable such exponential boost. IIRC TV hadnt started showing every race until as late as circa 1990, F1 had only 15 or so races a year, once 2-3 weeks unlike baseball etc, and of course japan GP is only once a year... in such situation, Senna became popular that much in a space of just few years here. Such thing never happened in Japan and will never happen.



Mojor newspapers like Yomiuri, Asahi and Mainichi had never reported F1 (even in 00s and 90s) in detail (just mention it very short), and that's nothing to do with level of public interest. It's just that it's been like that. (Only Chunichi sports shimbun report in decent detail)
But many online news outlet report F1, and news on Kamui's podium made headlines at major web portals and news congregation sites.
Also as for TV, only Fuji network (that has F1 licence here) report on F1, other tv stations never ever have reported F1 here.
I dont know what the reasons and rules are for these.. are there any contract that only allow Fuji TV to report F1? Using F1 footage and pics is too expensive? I'm not sure.
Positive news is that number of audience increased this year from last year, and it looks there are alot of new, younger age fans.

anyway,

exactly, that's TOTAL BS and myth that EVERYONE here seems to believe. "established/informed/knowledgable" media and jorno saying that is really embarrassing.


I hoped honda and toyota continued driver program...
After Lehman shock, many Japanese companies are opting to focus resources on cost cutting and development (of green technology esp), so they're spending less on ads. Also they are facing this harsh global low cost competition, besides 311 didnt help either.
Many ad boards used to fill Suzuka circuit, but this year it was really scarce, even pitlane ad spaces were empty, only Pirelli stickers as i mentioned earlier...it's very sad.
As Bocmax implied, I think supporting Kamui can be good global publicity boost for companies like komatsu, canon etc. There's still stereotype view towards him as "japanese driver", which i always criticize, but at the same time I can see Kamui's not only liked but also genuinely recognized as "F1 driver" and rated high by general, broader F1 fans. Of course I take such reputation for granted coz Ive been watching his performance closely and know he's good already, but still glad to see that. Supporting driver like him cannot be bad PR, I think they are wasting good opportunity.


Great insight :up:


#1519 Fourjays

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 13:29

I consider around half of the grid to be currently occupied by mediocre drivers that are just wasting valuable seats... Kobayashi certainly isn't one of them so I really hope he keeps his seat next year or finds another at a decent team.

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#1520 dau

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 13:56

Does Infiniti want to project a strong Japanese identity on their brand globally? I'm not sure they do.

I'm pretty sure they want the exact opposite. Distancing themselves from their Japanese ancestry was one of the main reasons why they were created in the first place, right?

But what about all those domestic companies? They could use Kamui and F1 to advertise on the Japanese market. Like America Movil does with Perez for example. Or Katjes with Hulk. Ok, the former is probably less comparable because the South American market is much larger than the Japanese one, but i could still think of a linkup with a telco. "Internet as fast as F1" or something like that, it's been done before. Or fashion companies, watchmakers, F&B etc. Maybe one of those high tech toilet makers - those things look more complicated than an F1 wheel already. Just kidding.

I don't know how much interest there is for F1 in Japan and how many viewers Fuji TV gets per race. But Japan has twice the population of the UK, so sponsoring racing drivers could be sustainable even if the relative interest is much lower than in the UK or the rest of Europe. It seems to work in Formula Nippon and Super GT and i'm not sure those series are more popular than F1. So how can they get their sponsors when Kamui just has a medical company and a 60-employee manufacturer of scale figures?

I agree though that he should look outside Japan as well. But i think even then he will have to rely on his nationality rather than his reputation. He's still pretty much unknown to most F1 fans, so he would probably be only interesting to companies trying to set foot on the Japanese market. How many of those are there?

#1521 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:18

I have some lucid, unbiased thoughts:

1. Kamui is actually a "popular" driver in the grand scheme of things. Both amongst the F1 fans and in Grand Prix driver circles. A positive for him.

2. He doesn't bring sponsorship, inspite of his "popularity". A negative for him when it comes to "getting a seat".

3. Kaltenborn just said that part of the points gap from Checo-to-Kamui is explained by relative grid positions where Checo has benifited from tyre/pitstop gambles that paid off in cases where Koba out-qualified Checo.

Ok...so whilst it's true that Koba out-qualified Checo in those cases, it's also true that Checo made those gambles work with his driving.

4. Autosport "Driver Ratings" (which you have to take with a 'grain of salt' (obviously)), in the aggregate, has Perez in the Top 1/3rd...but Koba is in the Bottom 1/3rd.

So whilst there have been some "under-performing" drivers that have done a worse job than Kamui, he too, it would seem, has "under-performed".

I'm sure it would be easier for Sauber to keep Koba if he came with some decent money...but perhaps they feel that someone else could:

A) Do as good a job whilst bringing money; OR...

B) Do a better job. Period.

I too would like to see Kamui in F1. But he doesn't seem like Ace material like, for instance, McLarens think Perez might be.

It could be that Perez could be "the next Vettel, the next Hamilton" in the right car. If that's the case, then Koba isn't a bad candidate for a 'Number 2' somewhere.

Unfortunately there are A LOT of quality drivers on the grid in this era: Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Webber, Button, Rosberg, Perez himself...and lots of others like Hulkenberg, di Resta waiting in the wings. Not to mention proven race winners like Massa and even Maldonado (who though silly can be blindingly fast at times). Throw in the pay drivers and where does Koba go?

So eventhough Kobayashi isn't out of Sauber yet, I do believe that he hasn't done a "very good job" in 2012. Lucky for him that Perez has now gone...and that means Sauber may need someone they know to provide a "baseline" for development.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 October 2012 - 15:19.


#1522 KinoNoNo

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 17:06

I too would like to see Kamui in F1. But he doesn't seem like Ace material like, for instance, McLarens think Perez might be.


Is this the same Perez that was passed over by Ferrari?

Basically Perez was the flavour of the month (like Di Resta was before him) when it became clear to McLaren that Hamilton was jumping ship.

But hey who's to say if the dice had fallen differently for Kamui, he could've ended up at McLaren instead.
It's been Kamui not Perez that's put his Sauber in the front 2 rows in qualifying, so who's the quicker guy?


#1523 KavB

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 17:11

It's nice to see Sauber are of the opinion that Kamui's podium is the one won by pure pace. That gives me hope for his future.

#1524 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 18:27

Is this the same Perez that was passed over by Ferrari?

Basically Perez was the flavour of the month (like Di Resta was before him) when it became clear to McLaren that Hamilton was jumping ship.


This is the same Ferrari that has kept (by all accounts, an under-achieving) Felipe' for two years too many. This is the same Ferrari that haven't fixed their wind tunnel-to-track correlations for well over a year.

Perez has been the flavour of the month for about a year and a half.

Hey, I did say "...McLaren think..."

I didn't say "...I think..."

Anyway, i'm sure both Sauber and McLaren have way more hard data than either of us and, as a result, they know more than anyone on here.

Even those on these boards will generally agree with the Autosport 'Rankings' which has Perez materially higher than Koba-san for 2012.

I'd love to see Kamui stay at Sauber or move to Williams or to Force India than be left without a ride...so, basically, i'm on your side on this one.

Good luck to Kamui.

:up:

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 October 2012 - 18:32.


#1525 TFLB

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 18:40

Kaltenborn's words made me wonder whether Sauber actually rate Kobayashi higher than Perez. Why else would she effectively say that Perez's podiums were down to luck?

#1526 tarmac

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 18:43

Hulkenberg put car on pole and still was dropped..

#1527 XOR

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:04

Anyway, i'm sure both Sauber and McLaren have way more hard data than either of us and, as a result, they know more than anyone on here.


* ...Who said "Telmex"?...

#1528 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:06

Kaltenborn's words made me wonder whether Sauber actually rate Kobayashi higher than Perez. Why else would she effectively say that Perez's podiums were down to luck?


Then why isn't Kaltenborn telling us all that they value Koba and he's got a 2013 seat with them?

Ya, there was an element of 'luck' in Perez's podiums. But he made it happen. 3 times. Once or twice is luck...but 3 times?

It's that old saying about "creating your own luck...", etcetera.



#1529 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:08

Hulkenberg put car on pole and still was dropped..


That was partly due to money (Maldonado's bag of Venezualan pesos or whatever) and Barrichello getting more points.

In this case, Perez has delivered more (points) than Koba.

That doesn't mean that Koba won't out-score Checo by the end of the season.

5 races to go. Still a lot to play for for Kamui.


Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 October 2012 - 19:11.


#1530 Collective

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:20

Then why isn't Kaltenborn telling us all that they value Koba and he's got a 2013 seat with them?

Ya, there was an element of 'luck' in Perez's podiums. But he made it happen. 3 times. Once or twice is luck...but 3 times?

It's that old saying about "creating your own luck...", etcetera.


Actually only Canada and Monza can be argued that way (luck). In Malaysia PER actually made Q3 (P10, to KOB's P17) and raced pretty much the same strategy as the big boys (his change to full wets being off by only two laps).

Edited by Collective, 09 October 2012 - 19:21.


#1531 Collective

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:22

* ...Who said "Telmex"?...


Only Sauber, that is keeping the sponsor for 2013.

#1532 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:34

Actually only Canada and Monza can be argued that way (luck). In Malaysia PER actually made Q3 (P10, to KOB's P17) and raced pretty much the same strategy as the big boys (his change to full wets being off by only two laps).


Sure.

As I said, 3 times is more than 'luck' only.

Before Suzuka, there was a big gap in points from Checo to Koba-san.

It was significant.

Based on pre-Suzuka form/points/subjective ratings, Checo had a meaningful edge on Koba...and that's what McLaren had to go on.

All credit to Koba for Suzuka, though. He out-qualified and out-raced Checo fair and square. If he can keep this up for 3 out of the last 5 races, then he'll be on the 2013 grid on merit.



#1533 Sakae

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:43

Then why isn't Kaltenborn telling us all that they value Koba and he's got a 2013 seat with them?

Ya, there was an element of 'luck' in Perez's podiums. But he made it happen. 3 times. Once or twice is luck...but 3 times?

It's that old saying about "creating your own luck...", etcetera.

I am hoping you heard that Sauber actually rates from system point of view result in Japan to be best one of four. I can understand that, because it was good weekend when strong quali and strong race came together. No flukes, or inherited podiums because of misfotunes of others. This one was a straight fight, and Sauber and Kamui won it in their own class as a small team facing big boys.

Having said that, I am not sure what Kalterborn is up to and why. Maybe 55 starts and this one result is not enough; we will see.

Edited by Sakae, 09 October 2012 - 19:43.


#1534 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 20:04

I am not sure what Kalterborn is up to and why.


Simple. They're trying to get the two best drivers they can in their car.

One of them could still end up being Koba!

The other angle is that they are trying to get more money in the door, including via increased financial support of Koba by sponsors who would like to see Koba continue. Perhaps Sauber strategy here is to get some corporation to "back" Kamui...and they're doing it this way because guaranteeing him the seat without financial strings attached means that they might leave potential money on the table.

Why guarantee someone a seat when you're in the "driver's seat" so to speak (no pun intended)? Sauber's in the stronger positon. Koba's in the weaker one.

So, I say, it's a game of poker to maximize the potential for Hinwil.



#1535 sofarapartguy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:21

That might be just about time for Koba.

Honda may be back in F1

#1536 qczhao

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:29

That might be just about time for Koba.

Honda may be back in F1


That looks like its not set to happen for a few years yet. But in the meantime maybe they could sponsor Kobayashi.

Here's hoping.

#1537 Jimisgod

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:51

That might be just about time for Koba.

Honda may be back in F1


Dammit, you gave us Sato and Ide for god sakes, you could at least sponsor the best Japanese driver ever Honda.

#1538 dau

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:51

Sure.

As I said, 3 times is more than 'luck' only.[...]

Getting the better one out of split strategies is having luck, regardless of how often is happens.

Regarding the big points gap, it should be noted that even with Checo's two second place finishes (=36pts), he is only 16 points ahead.

#1539 sosidge

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:56

That might be just about time for Koba.

Honda may be back in F1


I believe a Sauber buyout is the only reasonable course for Honda to take. And they should take it NOW, sod the WTCC.

Honda, if you are listening, if you keep KK in F1, I promise to buy a Honda again when my SEAT fails its MOT. Even though the new Civic is a ridiculous car. Deal?

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#1540 dau

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:04

But Kobayashi is a Toyota kid, i doubt he will want to jump to Honda.

#1541 sofarapartguy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:14

But Kobayashi is a Toyota kid, i doubt he will want to jump to Honda.

Don't think there are still any connections - Toyota is barely watching F1 today.

#1542 KinoNoNo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:09

Having said that, I am not sure what Kalterborn is up to and why. Maybe 55 starts and this one result is not enough; we will see.


The thing is it only been this season that they've got a car that's capable of running at the front.

In context of where Sauber has come from in the last few years, whose to say whether Kamui's 7th at Valencia '10 or his 5th in Monaco '11 was just as important to the team.

I know that you are only as good as your last race, but it's rather disingenuous to say that he has underperformed since joining the team and only now coming good.

If only at Valencia this year the team didn't have that slow first stop putting Kamui back in the one stoppers or if Kamui was a touch more patient in passing Senna they had the pace to win that race. A good result there would of changed everything, but as Murry Walker would say F1 is if spelt backwards.

My reading of Kalterborn statements, is in a perfect world they don't really want to lose Kamui as he's an important member of the team. But for the first time in a long while they've got drivers knocking on their door wanting to pay for a drive. It's probably wishful thinking on my part, but Sauber can afford to wait until the end of the season and see if they can overhaul Mercedes and that would be worth a lot in prize money for next year.



#1543 sofarapartguy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:46

I believe a Sauber buyout is the only reasonable course for Honda to take. And they should take it NOW, sod the WTCC.

Honda, if you are listening, if you keep KK in F1, I promise to buy a Honda again when my SEAT fails its MOT. Even though the new Civic is a ridiculous car. Deal?


Now that is what I call a pure support :lol:

#1544 mich

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:52

I believe a Sauber buyout is the only reasonable course for Honda to take. And they should take it NOW, sod the WTCC.

Honda, if you are listening, if you keep KK in F1, I promise to buy a Honda again when my SEAT fails its MOT. Even though the new Civic is a ridiculous car. Deal?


There is some possibility for Honda but also Toyota to supply 1.6 turbo engines from 2014, because with the 24 Hours of Le Mans coming up, an announcement is expected to come stating new regulations for the 2014 season.
And now Toyota is challenging Le Mans prototype series and they have a good hybrid system(KERS).
I think it's easier for toyota to join to F1 than Honda.

I hope these Japanese manufacturers have a secret conversation and support in "Saber Club 1" for coming back F1 and supporting Kobayashi.

#1545 Baddoer

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:53

But Kobayashi is a Toyota kid, i doubt he will want to jump to Honda.

As soon Honda returns, so will do Toyota

#1546 Bunchies

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 00:13

Kamui has also proved that he delivers the finishes to produce points under pressure. He was the one who scored the points in Brazil 2011 to move Sauber up a place in the WCC.

#1547 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:49

Kobayashi and his sponsorship troubles

In some ways I understand his point, but in others I don't: what's wrong about a driver being so valuable that the attracts personal sponsors which he brings to the team? I may be sad for the state of F1, if this is a prerequisite for a drive, but it does not go against a driver's honor, IMHO. (I mean, in his books Lauda talks about the very same thing being required in 1971/72, it's nothing new and was not dishonorable to him)

What I find curious is that it seems to be so hard for Kamui. He's the first competitive Japanese driver in ages, he is likable and seems marketable certainly within Japan (the crowds in Suzuka after his podium!) and even beyond. Even with an economic crisis going on, Japan is not a Caribbean island nation or something. Why is it so hard to find a sponsor?

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 11 October 2012 - 09:52.


#1548 showtime

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:09

Is he managed by someone? As you say, the only representative from a country with F1 (and racing in general) tradition shouldn't have problems to find some sponsors.

Edited by showtime, 11 October 2012 - 10:09.


#1549 Don_Humpador

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:11

Interesting comments. I really admire that he wants to make a career for himself just based on talent and his ability, that deserves some plaudits, I think. Whether it's ultimately naive or not, he obviously is happy with the fact that he has so far done it 'his way'. The only assistance he's had is that he was with Toyota when Glock got injured, but beyond that, he's done everything himself, based on his ability, it's something I love about him. He has made the most of one chance in his career.

However for his sake I really hope that he is actively looking for some assistance in staying in F1, whether it's sponsorship or something else, like a new team that is willing to take him without sponsor's money. He deserves to be on the grid and he deserves to be in a competitive car like Sauber.

But, you also have to realise, if he has his own ideals about how he goes racing, then you have to respect that. If he feels he doesn't want to be in F1 on the whim of a sponsor's cheque then I can definitely respect him for it :up:

Come on Koba, stay in F1 for 2013, we need you. :)

EDIT :

Take a look :

We are missing how a driver really has to be, thinking about the car. This is part of the driver's job. But now it looks like it's more about sponsorship. It's not a way a driver has to be.

Drivers should be thinking about the car and what to do with the car as that's their job, but now it's complicated by a lot of sponsoring and what they can bring. That is the way a driver has to be.


Those are quite different quotes...

Edited by Don_Humpador, 11 October 2012 - 10:18.


#1550 XOR

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:27

Monisha is about to make a huge mistake.