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#1601 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 04:27

anyone else hate pay drivers? you should get a drive in F1 on merit not cause someone pulls your purse strings...

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#1602 Jimisgod

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 04:32

anyone else hate pay drivers? you should get a drive in F1 on merit not cause someone pulls your purse strings...


Damn right. The cruelest joke would be if Senna gets a drive and not Kobayashi. I might just stop watching such a pathetic joke of a series then. Even in the days of dozens of pay drivers the midfield usually had enough seats for the most talented dozen drivers on earth. Not any more I guess.

#1603 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 04:39

Damn right. The cruelest joke would be if Senna gets a drive and not Kobayashi. I might just stop watching such a pathetic joke of a series then. Even in the days of dozens of pay drivers the midfield usually had enough seats for the most talented dozen drivers on earth. Not any more I guess.


problem is it also ruins the feeder series like GP2/GP3/FR3.5, so you can't even be sure anymore that people coming through are really the best out there or just have the most sponsors who like them or whatever.

imo the FIA need to sort shit out and crack down on it.

#1604 muramasa

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:13

The head protection logos on the McLaren vary race to race - I believe they are often Vodafone business customers who win a competition, but in this case NTT DoCoMo and Vodafone have joint interests/strategic partnership.

Cable&Wireless worldwide (another Vodafone company/partner) were on the car just for Singapore.

It's all part of the Vodafone package and not the individual companies contributing themselves.

cheers, that's sth i didnt know. I just checked and found out Docomo and vodafone started alliance to provide mobile phone service for international enterprise customers, just 1 year ago. Bit surprised coz vodafone had long time relationship with Softbank (Vodafone used to be in Japan, by acquring J-Phone. After that Softbank bought Vodafone jp).

But docomo have history of screw-ups, like failed attempt to expand i-mode mobile platform to worldwide, failed acquisition of mobile companies outside Japan, etc etc, so i automatically thought it was them being silly again, but, fine this time they had good reason.

(DoCoMo is another japanese company that's failing to expand beyond border even tho they have resource and capability. If they did cleverly, DoCoMo could become global company like T-Mobile or Vodafone..how shame)

#1605 Bunchies

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 14:38

And Kobayashi shows again that he has all the performance that his mclaren teammate does, and sometimes more.

He thoroughly deserves the seat with the Sauber that he developed. Who knows where that sauber would be without his input?

#1606 KinoNoNo

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:41

problem is it also ruins the feeder series like GP2/GP3/FR3.5, so you can't even be sure anymore that people coming through are really the best out there or just have the most sponsors who like them or whatever.

imo the FIA need to sort shit out and crack down on it.


The problem with Gp2 is that it's turned into a nice little money making scheme for the organizers of the championship.

Gp2 and Gp3 (along with a theoretical Gp1) are owned by the Formula 1 group (i.e. Bernie's lot). The FIA tried to rectify the situation with F2 and F3, but it can't get any traction because lack of exposure.




#1607 pingu666

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:27

people arent interested in racing where they cant buy performance too
there probably is about a dozen pay drivers in f1 now..

#1608 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:40

And Kobayashi shows again that he has all the performance that his mclaren teammate does, and sometimes more.

He thoroughly deserves the seat with the Sauber that he developed. Who knows where that sauber would be without his input?

Engineers and designers develop the car.

#1609 Collective

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:09

anyone else hate pay drivers? you should get a drive in F1 on merit not cause someone pulls your purse strings...

Well Kobayashi hardly had the credentials, yet being a Toyota boy landed him his golden chance.

The old fashioned Yuji Ide-esque pay driver no longer exists. Which pay drivers are in the line? Don't think any of the mentioned would look ridiculous in F1.

#1610 Collective

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:10

Well, Senna does look kinda bad!

#1611 Velocifer

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:27

Kobayashi deserves to stay on at Sauber, especially now that he's wet his duck and showed he's not afraid of success.

#1612 DracoN

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:06

damn damn damn

#1613 onewingedangel

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:10

Goodbye Kamui.

See you in the WEC next year.

#1614 Don_Humpador

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:14

Well, he made a bad mistake, I'd like to see if he had anyone behind him, because Button and Rosberg didn't give any space, presumably because they didn't realise it was 3 abreast, Kamui was trying to go through a tiny gap more than braking crazy late

#1615 sofarapartguy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:16

Thank you, Kamui...

#1616 Bunchies

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:37

Announcers talking a lot of shit. He was given no space, but the announcers are towing the line, despite other drivers causing way worse incidents.

Unbelievable and insulting.

#1617 FenderJaguar

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:43

problem is it also ruins the feeder series like GP2/GP3/FR3.5, so you can't even be sure anymore that people coming through are really the best out there or just have the most sponsors who like them or whatever.


Koba was really poor in GP2 and got his chance through Toyota.

#1618 sosidge

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:30

Disappointed to see that mistake from KK.

He may say that there was no room and that the others braked early, but to be honest, when both Button AND Rosberg brake at the same point, it looks like KK was the one braking too late. Looking at the replay, KK had no pressure from behind or to the side, he just went in too hot.

#1619 ensign14

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:31

Even though he was using Rosberg and Button as a brake Kamui still didn't stop before the corner...

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#1620 Sakae

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:37

I haven't seen the incident (has anyone a link?), thus I cannot comment on it, but one incident shouldn't influence his standing with Sauber. Driving well of course would be however helpful in his personal marketing campain.

頑張って下さい。

#1621 repete

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:38

Disappointed to see that mistake from KK.

He may say that there was no room and that the others braked early, but to be honest, when both Button AND Rosberg brake at the same point, it looks like KK was the one braking too late. Looking at the replay, KK had no pressure from behind or to the side, he just went in too hot.

the collision was not caused by nico/button slowing down, it was caused by the slight jerk to the right nico made in the braking zone.

#1622 fatd

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:45

Disappointing KK, but just as MK said, one good race shouldn't be taken too much into consideration, hopefully so does one off day.

#1623 Don_Humpador

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:51

Silly day today. He will lose his seat next year, Kaltenborn has shown little patience for mistakes. Unfortunately the idea is cemented in the minds of F1 media and circus that he is "another crazy Japanese" and I don't think he can shake this stigma off, despite he is very clean usually.

#1624 Jimisgod

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:05

Even though he was using Rosberg and Button as a brake Kamui still didn't stop before the corner...


Yeah, because blind Brittany Rosberg moved over on him and wiped his wing off. Pretty hard to stop with a wig jammed under the car.

#1625 Rurouni

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:48

At first glance, I believe the accident today was Kobayashi fault, but after hearing his comment, I would like to see an overhead/helicopter shot of the accident.

#1626 King Six

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:52

Funny how after his podium everyone is like "he's a shoe-in for next year" then he has a crash now everyone is "well, that's him gone", I just find the yoyo from the circus/media/fans funny

Reminds me of that time when someone said you're only as good as your last race or something.

#1627 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:58

the collision was not caused by nico/button slowing down, it was caused by the slight jerk to the right nico made in the braking zone.

is there a video of that?

#1628 KinoNoNo

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:17

I ran the contact with Button back and for. It's hard to see but the front wing does look broken and under the car before he hits button's front wheel.

Edit Scratch that he clobbered Button's back wheel on the way through.

Edited by KinoNoNo, 14 October 2012 - 10:22.


#1629 Jimisgod

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:26

I ran the contact with Button back and for. It's hard to see but the front wing does look broken and under the car before he hits button's front wheel.

Edit Scratch that he clobbered Button's back wheel on the way through.


The wing definitely gets knocked off from the Rosberg side though, there is a very small gap, but watch from the front and the wing is off and under before he even touches Button.

#1630 Tonka

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:36

The wing definitely gets knocked off from the Rosberg side though, there is a very small gap, but watch from the front and the wing is off and under before he even touches Button.



Rubbish. He lost the wing when he hit Button.



#1631 DracoN

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:10

IF Koba is out of F1 drive, maybe he follows Naka path. Super Gt and when hes ready then he gets Toyota LMP1 drive.

#1632 BillBald

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:43

the collision was not caused by nico/button slowing down, it was caused by the slight jerk to the right nico made in the braking zone.


I think you are referring to the fact that Rosberg moved slightly to the left, but there was no overtaking opportunity there anyway.

Both Rosberg and Button braked as late as they could, I actually saw an interview with Kamui on BBC, he complained that they 'braked very hard'. :stoned:



#1633 Sakae

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:48

Notwithstanding events of today's race, rumor is intensifying that Sauber has decided on different direction. What's next for Kamui? I am not sure that he should hook up with someone from the group of last four, because that could spell very much end of his F1 career. Perhaps he could emulate Kimi's choices. Take sabattical, ride in different series, get proper agent, and try return in 2014.

Edited by Sakae, 14 October 2012 - 13:52.


#1634 muramasa

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:05

I dont know how long these videos stay, but at 00:26, there are big gap b/w Nico and JB. Nico and Kamui had more speed than JB, it's not really reckless to go for that space.


then he first touch (actually was touched by) Nico, who swerved to the left as you normally do to take right hand corner, then lost control and grip, so couldnt slow down so inevitably hit JB


If Nico hadnt swerved to the left like that, everything wouldve been fine for sure. Maybe Kamui shudve been careful but even then it's not much worse than one of those things at all.

#1635 BillBald

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:18

I dont know how long these videos stay, but at 00:26, there are big gap b/w Nico and JB. Nico and Kamui had more speed than JB, it's not really reckless to go for that space.


then he first touch (actually was touched by) Nico, who swerved to the left as you normally do to take right hand corner, then lost control and grip, so couldnt slow down so inevitably hit JB


If Nico hadnt swerved to the left like that, everything wouldve been fine for sure. Maybe Kamui shudve been careful but even then it's not much worse than one of those things at all.


I'm fairly sure that Nico was fully ahead of Kamui when he moved left, so Kamui should have recognised that there was no longer an overtaking opportunity.

TBH I think it was because Kamui was side by side with his team-mate (the one who just got a prime spot at Macca while he got nothing), that's why he got the red mist.



#1636 muramasa

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:23

Silly day today. He will lose his seat next year, Kaltenborn has shown little patience for mistakes. Unfortunately the idea is cemented in the minds of F1 media and circus that he is "another crazy Japanese" and I don't think he can shake this stigma off, despite he is very clean usually.

this is really nasty PR spin pundits and the media is doing.
this is the first accident he had in after-the-start multiple cars dog fight, and consequence was bad but actually it wasnt really reckless at all. That's what anyone shud think if you are rational, but wth.

What makes it even funnier is how they seem to forgive all Grosjean has done now. This is farce.

#1637 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:35

Silly day today. He will lose his seat next year, Kaltenborn has shown little patience for mistakes. Unfortunately the idea is cemented in the minds of F1 media and circus that he is "another crazy Japanese" and I don't think he can shake this stigma off, despite he is very clean usually.

Silly day indeed from Kamui, it was a bit like GP2 with that collision with 4 cars all vying for the one corner. I don't think Kaltenborn has little patience as her previous interviews suggest, but perhaps after 3 years with the team, Sauber feel that they can do no more with Kamui unfortunately.

The only option he has really for F1 is hoping that Caterham don't resign Kovalainen and take a punt on him. Otherwise like others say, it's probably LMP1. If I were the head of Indycar though, I'd seriously try and force one of the teams to sign him. It may take him some time to adapt, but he'd be a star in Indycar imo.

#1638 One

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:42

Silly day indeed from Kamui, it was a bit like GP2 with that collision with 4 cars all vying for the one corner. I don't think Kaltenborn has little patience as her previous interviews suggest, but perhaps after 3 years with the team, Sauber feel that they can do no more with Kamui unfortunately.

The only option he has really for F1 is hoping that Caterham don't resign Kovalainen and take a punt on him. Otherwise like others say, it's probably LMP1. If I were the head of Indycar though, I'd seriously try and force one of the teams to sign him. It may take him some time to adapt, but he'd be a star in Indycar imo.


now is it?
Kamui say that he was pushed by someone from behind.
The differences toi Pere is naturally Perez comes with Slim money. obviously. It is not about Kamui's performance, but the money that worries Sauber team. Blaming driver is a silly thing to do. Sauber needs to up their performance to bringup sponsors so that they can act like a real formula One team.

#1639 muramasa

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 15:00

Silly day indeed from Kamui, it was a bit like GP2 with that collision with 4 cars all vying for the one corner.

3 or 4 cars were vying for that corner at front pack as well, some cars were touching each other as well. That's how things get like there, right after start.

And as I explained, Nico-Kamui were going faster than JB, and Kamui was looking to pass JB, not Nico. and there was big space opening up between Nico/JB. Besides it's not Kamui's late, nor reckless, brake or Nico/JB's early brake that caused collision, but it's his positioning to Nico and JB that was the cause. Kamui couldnt react to Nico's swerving and as a result touched and lost control. Had Nico not swerved to the left, everything wouldve been just fine (not saying Nico's fault at all). Kamui couldve settled for going behind Nico, but that's all, it was not that silly at all. But how pundits in UK TV bashed and exaggerated out of this is really appalling, to say the least.

I don't think Kaltenborn has little patience as her previous interviews suggest, but perhaps after 3 years with the team, Sauber feel that they can do no more with Kamui unfortunately.

So many people saying so similar things, but, I wonder, is that what you think or what pundits/media (that's so biased) made you think?


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#1640 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 15:30

3 or 4 cars were vying for that corner at front pack as well, some cars were touching each other as well. That's how things get like there, right after start.

And as I explained, Nico-Kamui were going faster than JB, and Kamui was looking to pass JB, not Nico. and there was big space opening up between Nico/JB. Besides it's not Kamui's late, nor reckless, brake or Nico/JB's early brake that caused collision, but it's his positioning to Nico and JB that was the cause. Kamui couldnt react to Nico's swerving and as a result touched and lost control. Had Nico not swerved to the left, everything wouldve been just fine (not saying Nico's fault at all). Kamui couldve settled for going behind Nico, but that's all, it was not that silly at all. But how pundits in UK TV bashed and exaggerated out of this is really appalling, to say the least.

Don't forget Perez on the outside too, there was never going to be a simple outcome. Perhaps optimistic rather than silly is the more apt word. A bit of patience and it could've been different, like you say. It is overboard but being involved in an incident with BBC's favourite boy Button isn't going to win you any admirers, unfortunately :well: . I'm just disappointed because after such a great result last week, it's a bit of a frustrating race today.

So many people saying so similar things, but, I wonder, is that what you think or what pundits/media (that's so biased) made you think?

Not from the media really, but the more I thought about it and the comments Monisha has made. It just seems like Sauber have decided Kamui's been with us for 3 seasons, we can't get much more out of him. Comments on his future at Sauber where Monisha says isn't dependent on conditions, like money or results, suggest to me that he'd be going if they released him or he signed for a new team. Also looking at Sauber's driver history, aside from Nick Heidfeld, most drivers last at most for 3 seasons.

#1641 Bunchies

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:01

Koba was really poor in GP2 and got his chance through Toyota.


He was 2009 GP2 Asia champion, over Vitaly Petrov and Nico Hulkenberg.

#1642 Bunchies

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:03

Silly day today. He will lose his seat next year, Kaltenborn has shown little patience for mistakes. Unfortunately the idea is cemented in the minds of F1 media and circus that he is "another crazy Japanese" and I don't think he can shake this stigma off, despite he is very clean usually.


It's because the F1 circus is very euro-centric, and honestly, a little racist when it comes to Japanese drivers.

They will never admit it of course, but it is clear to see for anyone who pays attention. Complete BS.

#1643 Bunchies

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:05

this is really nasty PR spin pundits and the media is doing.
this is the first accident he had in after-the-start multiple cars dog fight, and consequence was bad but actually it wasnt really reckless at all. That's what anyone shud think if you are rational, but wth.

What makes it even funnier is how they seem to forgive all Grosjean has done now. This is farce.


Yeah it's absolutely disgusting. And what is the reason?

Kamui is Asian. Romain is white.

#1644 muramasa

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:05

Don't forget Perez on the outside too, there was never going to be a simple outcome. Perhaps optimistic rather than silly is the more apt word. A bit of patience and it could've been different, like you say. It is overboard but being involved in an incident with BBC's favourite boy Button isn't going to win you any admirers, unfortunately :well: . I'm just disappointed because after such a great result last week, it's a bit of a frustrating race today.

yeah, optimistic shud be right word.
Note that Perez played little to no effect to the accident really, plenty of room for Kamui and Perez throughout, and Perez went half car length on the left side of JB too. Some posters said above that Kamui had no longer overtaking opportunity, but such view is very funny, coz neither Perez had such opportunity really. Plus, even with no firm overtaking opportunity you sniff chance exactly like that, by putting your nose into space, it's such common racing scene.
And at the front even more intense and closer battle was going on, and at 2nd back straight Alonso and Webber (iirc) so close to each other, almost touching each other. Kamui's positioning may have been bit optimistic but nothing reckless at all, he had space that was no way too narrow, and, again, had Nico not swerved to the left like that everything wouldve been just fine. It was more in the vein of Alonso-Kimi at Suzuka and MS/Gro at Monaco. Sometimes timing and positioning result in collision. That's racing.

Not from the media really, but the more I thought about it and the comments Monisha has made. It just seems like Sauber have decided Kamui's been with us for 3 seasons, we can't get much more out of him. Comments on his future at Sauber where Monisha says isn't dependent on conditions, like money or results, suggest to me that he'd be going if they released him or he signed for a new team. Also looking at Sauber's driver history, aside from Nick Heidfeld, most drivers last at most for 3 seasons.

fair enough.
we never know what's going on in each team, one can only guess, and cannot really blame Sauber for whatever they do if they need money or whatever, they have hundreds of workers at stake you know, cannot really curse them for what they choose to do, in order to survive. That is fine by me, but I'm pissed by how media, especially UK media and pundits, make so much buzz about it. They spread biased and totally incorrect reputation and assssment about Kamui, and ask Monisha about next years plan race after race, but they dont do it to other teams principals. Sauber is rather hot topic but still they meddle things way too much.

Edited by muramasa, 14 October 2012 - 17:05.


#1645 FenderJaguar

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:07

He was 2009 GP2 Asia champion, over Vitaly Petrov and Nico Hulkenberg.


you can at least be honest about it and mention his results in the real GP2 series. He was driving for a good team like DAMS and was 16th in 2008 and 16th in 2009


#1646 FenderJaguar

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:10

Yeah it's absolutely disgusting. And what is the reason?

Kamui is Asian. Romain is white.


facepalm...this is just not true
he went into F1 thanks to Toyota and did good and has since then been driving for Sauber for 3 years. that's a better opportunity than most drivers wanting to get into F1 ever will have

#1647 Bunchies

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:10

you can at least be honest about it and mention his results in the real GP2 series. He was driving for a good team like DAMS and was 16th in 2008 and 16th in 2009


You're the one being dishonest here, man. GP2 Asia still has a GP2 label on it, does it not? He still raced against other GP2 drivers, right?

And once they got to F1, he turned out to be the most exciting of the GP2 graduates, including Hulkenberg and Petrov, did he not?

Who else would powerslide so close to the wall of champions and run out in the soaking rain in Silverstone? The man is simply much better to watch than any of the other drivers.

#1648 Sakae

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:13

Kamui is Asian. Romain is white.

That's not only inflamatory, but also most likely inaccurate. Gro has a mentor in EB (sort off), who, like Renault, would like to fill vaccum that was created when there was no French representation in F1 on driver side. Kamui doesn't has that, thus his driving needs to do talking. Unfortunately it might come to basics like that.

#1649 FenderJaguar

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:14

You're the one being dishonest here, man. GP2 Asia still has a GP2 label on it, does it not? He still raced against other GP2 drivers, right?


No, I didn't mention any results because it's out there for everyone to see. You mentioned GP2 Asia as it would have some kind of relevance when everyone knows that the important one is the real championship that goes for much more races.

And I don't find it exciting that a driver can't control himself in tight racing situations after 3 years with Sauber.


#1650 Bunchies

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:16

facepalm...this is just not true
he went into F1 thanks to Toyota and did good and has since then been driving for Sauber for 3 years. that's a better opportunity than most drivers wanting to get into F1 ever will have


That has nothing to do with how our Asian friend was treated in the media, and how Romain has suddenly been forgiven despite having first lap incidents in HALF of the races he started this year.

You don't see how many incidents Romain has caused? Do you see how few Kobayashi has?

Why, then, do the commentators make all sorts of snide remarks all throughout the race about "clean racing, no contact" if not to try to tear another driver down? There is no reason to do that to a driver who is hardly the cause of any accidents, and before seeing the replays.

So if you take Grosjeans worse performance into account, and combine it with the better treatment he gets in the media, one can only conclude that they are biased against Kobayashi for one reason or another. And aside from the relevant incident count (of which KOB has nearly none), the only difference is in the color of their skin.

They CHOOSE not to give the viewers any sort of perspective. Anyone who doesn't know better might actually believe them about Kobayashi, when the stuff they say is simply not true.

Edited by Bunchies, 14 October 2012 - 16:18.