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#1651 Bunchies

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:21

That's not only inflamatory, but also most likely inaccurate. Gro has a mentor in EB (sort off), who, like Renault, would like to fill vaccum that was created when there was no French representation in F1 on driver side. Kamui doesn't has that, thus his driving needs to do talking. Unfortunately it might come to basics like that.


Inflammatory, perhaps.

Did you hear the things that Brundle/co were saying during the broadcast? It's like they took some sort of sick pleasure in tearing down Kobayashi.

They mentioned nothing about his achievements and could only say negative things, despite performance pointing to the contrary.

Brundle started to give the benefit of the doubt and mentioned that he wanted to "see more replay angles" before making a decision. But they were very quick to jump on someone just because JB said so.

It's unbelievable, and for whatever reason they seem to value him less than equivalent drivers who are crashing way more.

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#1652 FenderJaguar

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:31

Why, then, do the commentators make all sorts of snide remarks all throughout the race about "clean racing, no contact" if not to try to tear another driver down? There is no reason to do that to a driver who is hardly the cause of any accidents, and before seeing the replays.


hardly the cause of any accidents? I don't watch BBC but if anyone takes out a British driver at the start I'd expect them to be pretty worked up about it no matter who the driver is.

#1653 muramasa

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:50

facepalm...this is just not true

it's true.
Sato's overall incident rate was pretty much average, but the word "Sato" is pretty much synonim of crashy or laughingstock.
Nakajima jr had way less accident rate than average, but as soon as he had first accidents, people were quickly calling him clashajima. He is widely regarded as crashajima and even said to have lack of spacial awareness. When his perfectly explainable collision with Nissan Deltawing at LeMans 24 this year happened, there was outburst of "cahajima", "simply no good for driver", "spacial awareness" etc on various forums incl this one, even by some forumers who I regarded highly, even by some guy (forgot who, but seemed ex-f1 mechanic or driver or sth) at the track being interviewed. Funny thing is that in that race 4 DIFFERENT AUDI DRIVERS crashed or spun in ways that are more amateurish than Nakajima, but pretty much no one laughing them.

Compare that to Lewis, Gro, Maldo, Liuzzi, etc who had WAY more crash than him.

he went into F1 thanks to Toyota and did good and has since then been driving for Sauber for 3 years. that's a better opportunity than most drivers wanting to get into F1 ever will have

I've been actually very very critical to what Japanese manufacturers did about introducing Japanese drivers to F1 as well as how JP companies threw money into F1 in the past, but fact of the matter is that manufacturer route has been the only way for Japanese drivers to get into F1.
Also pay driver is not exclusive to Japan at all, look at past minardi or jordan drivers from south america and europe, many drivers got in by money/backing and driver program such as Red Bulls etc.
And no western agency/manager/manufacturers bother to check junior racings in Japan nor pick young japanese talent to put in european series. It's not that they have unlimited resources either, so they have no incentive to look beyond proven markets ie europe and south america.
And for Japanese young drivers to go, continue racing, and gain experience in Europe, you need huge money. No one can afford such amount of money.

Edited by muramasa, 14 October 2012 - 16:53.


#1654 Slowinfastout

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 17:08

From a fan's perspective I can see why it would suck to see Kobayashi go, he's a likeable guy and he did some pretty memorable stuff since he arrived in F1.. but at the end of the day you have to look at what the teams want; I think that the results and the points tally are respectable, but what I think is harming Kobayashi's chance to stay at Sauber or even land elsewhere is that he's not the kind of guy to be a team leader and maybe on a technical/feedback level he's not good enough.

It's hard to see him do what Kovalainen and Glock did for their respective teams, and if you can't play that role then you have to bring money because the other seat in the team is a pay-driver seat.

I think that's why his future is in question at Sauber and why he's unlikely to rebound elsewhere, a few weeks ago this would have been internet forums folklore, but now I think it should be considered seriously because there's a pragmatic reason to explain what's happening.

#1655 muramasa

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 17:27

From a fan's perspective I can see why it would suck to see Kobayashi go, he's a likeable guy and he did some pretty memorable stuff since he arrived in F1.. but at the end of the day you have to look at what the teams want; I think that the results and the points tally are respectable, but what I think is harming Kobayashi's chance to stay at Sauber or even land elsewhere is that he's not the kind of guy to be a team leader and maybe on a technical/feedback level he's not good enough.

how can you come to such conclusion? No one outside team can tell for sure such things. And other guys can be a leader? Compare what you say with how some people defend Gro, they say "more protection and care from team and he'll overcome his issue", "media shud stop pressure him, it's not doing goo on him" etc. Excuse me, Gro has love and support from team and backers. And it's HIS conduct that brought pressure, not the other way around.

Being able to know and evaluate Kamui's personality by his (our) native language ie Japanese, I can say with full confidence that he's strong, smart, positive and witty as anyone would dream to be.
Also at Malaysia 2012 - his rear dumper slowly failing from FP3, but it wasnt "completely" broken, most of the time working but occasionally not working, so team couldnt identify it. Kamui insisted sth was wrong in the rear, but team didnt/culdnt do anything in/during sessions. In fact they tweaked setting alot to "suit" the failing dumper. And, after quali, Kamui still kept insisting, strongly, that sth was defo wrong in the rear, for several hours, which is why they could finaly find the rear dumper issue. If Kamui wasnt strong, he most likely wouldve raced with failing dumper and who knows when they wouldve noticed it. This anecdote tells me he's no short of technical feedback ability, rather than the opposite.

It's hard to see him do what Kovalainen and Glock did for their respective teams, and if you can't play that role then you have to bring money because the other seat in the team is a pay-driver seat.

I think that's why his future is in question at Sauber and why he's unlikely to rebound elsewhere, a few weeks ago this would have been internet forums folklore, but now I think it should be considered seriously because there's a pragmatic reason to explain what's happening.

explanation of whats been happening.
http://forums.autosp...p;#entry5961485

Edited by muramasa, 14 October 2012 - 17:29.


#1656 Slowinfastout

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 17:35

Maybe you're a bit too emotional about this, my point was that Kobayashi's results and points are respectable compared to his yardstick who is getting a McLaren drive.. so there has to be another reason why Sauber are considering dropping him and getting two new drivers, one of which (Hulk) even having less points in a comparable-ish car.

There's a reason why Sauber does what they're doing and I kindly provided my interpretation of the situation.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 14 October 2012 - 17:35.


#1657 repete

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 17:49

is there a video of that?

yes, on my tv. KK gets between Button and Nico right before the braking zone. Nico moves left right as he begins braking bumping into KK's right front. Breaking his wing and sending him on a crash course into button on his left.

I saw another instance of cause going 3 wide into that turn, with no incident. The difference? No body moved under braking, they all stayed strait.

#1658 muramasa

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 18:02

Maybe you're a bit too emotional about this, my point was that Kobayashi's results and points are respectable compared to his yardstick who is getting a McLaren drive.. so there has to be another reason why Sauber are considering dropping him and getting two new drivers, one of which (Hulk) even having less points in a comparable-ish car.

There's a reason why Sauber does what they're doing and I kindly provided my interpretation of the situation.

which was bolded part, right? so I said no one outside team can know such thing and counter argued citing other driver and Kamui's anecdote, but no way meant to say I'm 100% right, so.
emotional? quite opposite, I presented facts and analysis only, instead of crying out loud. I also wrote before that one cannot curse Sauber for whatever they choose to do.
anyway i know what you meant in other parts, and you didnt mean offence either. I just pointed out the part I didnt agree with you about, that's all.


#1659 DS27

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 18:15

Jeez, there's some ridiculous comments in this thread. Anyone would think drivers like Maldanado and Grojean haven't been criticised by the media.

Johnny Herbert was rabidly calling for Grojean to be sacked live on air at the last race for crying out loud. Talk about a blinkered view, and seeing things that aren't there. KK has generally been very popular with the media.

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#1660 eronrules

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 18:19

i see no light at the end of the tunnel TBH ... whatever momentum kobayashi had going for after suzuka is gone in 1 misjudged incident. i really wanna see kamui sticking in with the F1 roster ... but the hope is fading like RBR front right tire. :|

#1661 muramasa

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 18:48

Jeez, there's some ridiculous comments in this thread. Anyone would think drivers like Maldanado and Grojean haven't been criticised by the media.

Johnny Herbert was rabidly calling for Grojean to be sacked live on air at the last race for crying out loud. Talk about a blinkered view, and seeing things that aren't there. KK has generally been very popular with the media.

You compare Kamui with Gro/Maldo in terms of accident, seriously??? It's not much different from comparing Alonso/JB with them (in terms of accident), really.

Gro and Mald deserves criticism. But I'm against such rabid thinking and excessive bashing, of course. I never participated in such campaign, and am equally vehemently against excessive and absurd labeling and dissing towards any drivers.

But, while Gro and Maldo is getting silly rep among fair and right criticism, they are still getting enough credit and support. I mentioned Gro, as well as Sato, Nakajima jr etc, in prev posts, just to give perspective and prove Kamui's reputation/bashing is so inaccurate and very unfair.


#1662 Sakae

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 18:54

Inflammatory, perhaps.

Did you hear the things that Brundle/co were saying during the broadcast? It's like they took some sort of sick pleasure in tearing down Kobayashi.

They mentioned nothing about his achievements and could only say negative things, despite performance pointing to the contrary.

Brundle started to give the benefit of the doubt and mentioned that he wanted to "see more replay angles" before making a decision. But they were very quick to jump on someone just because JB said so.

It's unbelievable, and for whatever reason they seem to value him less than equivalent drivers who are crashing way more.

They do that to Schumacher as well; maybe not all the time, but more often than not. It was often that I thought there were nacionalist undertones in their comments, but then I got used to it, and have them on ignore button for very long time. Kamui is likeable guy, and he could have used mentor and some guidance. I know how difficult time I had when I arriwed first time to Japan (received a culture shock), and I have today no problem to understand Kamui how he might feel in inverse conditions; he is under immense pressure in such competitive environment, lacking home-like comfort od fellows Japanese. What has bothered me is that when Vettel called NK cucumber, noise was all over the place, while Button uses terms like idiot, and nobody blinks or raises an eyebrow over it, yet with all probability this might have been a racing accident. The uneven scale how media treat different drivers is appauling.

#1663 Bunchies

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:00

No, I didn't mention any results because it's out there for everyone to see. You mentioned GP2 Asia as it would have some kind of relevance when everyone knows that the important one is the real championship that goes for much more races.


In reality, neither of those matter anymore, but I humored you since you brought it up.

His results in Formula 1 are solid, and his performance is every bit a match for that of his teammate, who seems to be highly rated and moving on to mclaren.

GP2 results are irrelevant in the F1 world. Drivers develop, people grow. Nothing stays static, and it's clear that KK has the performance and speed for Formula 1.

Edited by Bunchies, 14 October 2012 - 19:01.


#1664 One

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:00

Maybe you're a bit too emotional about this, my point was that Kobayashi's results and points are respectable compared to his yardstick who is getting a McLaren drive.. so there has to be another reason why Sauber are considering dropping him and getting two new drivers, one of which (Hulk) even having less points in a comparable-ish car.

There's a reason why Sauber does what they're doing and I kindly provided my interpretation of the situation.


Interesting reading. I would like to pose dsome thoughts on this:
1. Formula One currently is more abot Business than pre racing. Perhaps Koba needs to be more business like and aim to make money out of his racing capability? In doing so he should make use of Sauber team, and bring thems ome profit?
2. Sauber in principke acts lie League2, meaning they provide a bigger team new talent and sell them and makes money. Koba was two year there and his team mate was 'sold' earlier therefore the team now lookingelsewhere to make more money by two new bloods?
Personally I do think that Kobayashi is an exciting talent in formla One racing, His over taking, his racing should be remain visible on the 2013 grid. Hope he gets right assistance from his management to cover his business done!

#1665 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:12

i see no light at the end of the tunnel TBH ... whatever momentum kobayashi had going for after suzuka is gone in 1 misjudged incident. i really wanna see kamui sticking in with the F1 roster ... but the hope is fading like RBR front right tire. :|

I fear his only hope of staying in F1 will be if Heikki has enough of Caterham and they decide to take a punt on Kamui rather than retain Petrov.

What has bothered me is that when Vettel called NK cucumber, noise was all over the place, while Button uses terms like idiot, and nobody blinks or raises an eyebrow over it, yet with all probability this might have been a racing accident. The uneven scale how media treat different drivers is appauling.

Idiot is a rather general insult. Cucumber is quite a baffling one, as it's an insult in German language/slang and seems a little perplexing to us Brits. It's a bit like Rafa Benitez and his 'sour milk' analogy from Spanish of the Liverpool owners :confused: . Even now I STILL don't know what the hell he meant.

2. Sauber in principke acts lie League2, meaning they provide a bigger team new talent and sell them and makes money. Koba was two year there and his team mate was 'sold' earlier therefore the team now lookingelsewhere to make more money by two new bloods?

I think this is probably true. Kamui has been there since 2010, so that's three years. The only Sauber driver to last longer was Heidfeld, who started there, moved on and rejoined when it was re-badged as BMW Sauber. They're a feeder team, but not exclusively for Ferrari, I think.

Edited by TheUltimateWorrier, 14 October 2012 - 19:12.


#1666 adam1312

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:21

poor mental driver but he can be good ie suzuka

#1667 Talisman

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:22

Inflammatory, perhaps.

Did you hear the things that Brundle/co were saying during the broadcast? It's like they took some sort of sick pleasure in tearing down Kobayashi.

They mentioned nothing about his achievements and could only say negative things, despite performance pointing to the contrary.

Brundle started to give the benefit of the doubt and mentioned that he wanted to "see more replay angles" before making a decision. But they were very quick to jump on someone just because JB said so.

It's unbelievable, and for whatever reason they seem to value him less than equivalent drivers who are crashing way more.


To be fair last weekend when Kamui outqualified Perez they tore into the Mexican too, bringing up his poor qualifying record and belittling his podiums as being due to strategy.

Thats the nature of TV commentary I'm afraid, there isn't time to have a nuanced discussion about pros and cons before moving onto the next incident.

Grosjean hasn't been 'forgiven', just wait till the next time he has a first lap incident regardless of who's at fault. Ultimately what Grosjean has of course is Total sponsorship and a manager who happens to run the team he drives for.

I don't see Kamui's problems as being of a racial nature at all.

Thinking back to some of the comments made by Monisha and him I think he's out of Sauber next season and I think part of that is due to naivety/poor management on Kamui's part especially if he only found out in the past week that his drive was dependent on sponsorship.

I agree with whoever said Sauber rarely keeps drivers for more than three seasons. Part of their business strategy is to pick up cheap unproven drivers like Kamui and turn a small profit when a bigger team comes knocking on the door. Thats more likely with Hulkenberg than Kamui and the German is even more attractive now he has $10 million in his pocket.

#1668 FenderJaguar

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:26

His results in Formula 1 are solid, and his performance is every bit a match for that of his teammate, who seems to be highly rated and moving on to mclaren.


Without going further into this I'd say I don't think he is a solid driver in F1. The mistakes might not be that many, but going for gaps like in Valencia or today is something he tends to do too often for my taste. So we disagree about if Kobayashi belongs in F1 or not and that is fine with me.

#1669 Talisman

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:31

Without going further into this I'd say I don't think he is a solid driver in F1. The mistakes might not be that many, but going for gaps like in Valencia or today is something he tends to do too often for my taste. So we disagree about if Kobayashi belongs in F1 or not and that is fine with me.


Without going further into this he's been rated highly enough by Sauber that he's survived as being the only non-paydriver in the midfleld for 3 seasons now on yearly contracts. Do you think that would have been the case if he didn't belong in F1?

#1670 Jejking

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:41

If Schumacher got a penalty for shoving his Merc up Vergne's ass, so should Kobayashi. Double standards, I reckon.

#1671 BillBald

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:45

A lot of nonsense being said here.

Kamui is very popular in UK, everyone was celebrating his perfomance in Suzuka.

He really messed up in Korea turn 3, Perez was also thinking of doing something rash but showed better judgement in backing off.

Even if Nico had stayed on the right, Kamui was coming from behind, trying to brake later than 2 guys who were trying to outbrake one another, there's no way it would ever have worked.



#1672 midgrid

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:54

If Schumacher got a penalty for shoving his Merc up Vergne's ass, so should Kobayashi. Double standards, I reckon.


Kobayashi was penalised, and served his penalty before retiring later in the race.


He really messed up in Korea turn 3, Perez was also thinking of doing something rash but showed better judgement in backing off.

Even if Nico had stayed on the right, Kamui was coming from behind, trying to brake later than 2 guys who were trying to outbrake one another, there's no way it would ever have worked.


Pérez was actually very lucky to avoid damaging his car or Hulkenberg's car with his own braking misjudgement at Turn One.


#1673 KinoNoNo

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 20:48

As Kimi would say "Shit happens", but Kamui really shot himself in the foot with this one.

Hopefully he can bounce back at the next race, if he's given the opportunity.

I'll hate the last memory of him in F1, is him careening over the back of two other competitors.

Edited by KinoNoNo, 14 October 2012 - 20:59.


#1674 muramasa

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 20:53

I don't see Kamui's problems as being of a racial nature at all.

no, I dont think anyone here saying it's "racial" matter at all, but more a perception. In a word, it's just that "some things are not fair apparently", and that's it really, no more, no less (And of course I'm equally against any such unfair, excessive, simple-minded bashing towards any drivers). One cannot deny some tendency, bias and stereotype here (eg if you go to Alonso threads there're alot of strawman and silly bashings going on there and some spanish forumers are busy dealing with them. As for Japanese drivers, the existence of this reckless/crash/inconsistent stereotype is undeniable, unfortunately), but not generalizing things and no way going for racial route and bashing UK as a whole. I tend to end up picking up negative things only, but of course realize he's liked by many and people are generally fair in praising anyone's achievements not just his.

(For a record, Japanese of course have many issues regarding perception of other cultures, oftentimes being brutally ignorant and racial, and I'm being far more critical and harsh at Japan(ese) in Japanese forums/etc regarding such issues.)

I didnt want nor mean to make things go into "racism" direction, which is the last thing I wish, and I tried to be careful about it and be fact-based as much as possible, but I apologize if I came across as being offensive.

Thinking back to some of the comments made by Monisha and him I think he's out of Sauber next season and I think part of that is due to naivety/poor management on Kamui's part especially if he only found out in the past week that his drive was dependent on sponsorship.

nah, sponsor etc is what fans are wishing and talking about, not Kamui. Just talking about reality and nothing more.
Needless to say, Kamui himself is the one who knows situation very well, far more than anyone, and what he needs and wants to do, ie do and give his best each race.


#1675 kyriakos75

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 21:35

Kobayashi was penalised, and served his penalty before retiring later in the race.


His drive-through "penalty" was farcical because his race had already been destroyed by the extra pit stop, even if he hadn't retired.

He should receive a grid penalty, but apparently these are reserved for the "old man" who has the nerve to race against the boys...

#1676 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 22:12

Pérez was actually very lucky to avoid damaging his car or Hulkenberg's car with his own braking misjudgement at Turn One.

That was not a misjudgement. that was a late dive bomb badly calculated. Extremely lucky to get away with it

#1677 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 22:17

His drive-through "penalty" was farcical because his race had already been destroyed by the extra pit stop, even if he hadn't retired.

He should receive a grid penalty, but apparently these are reserved for the "old man" who has the nerve to race against the boys...

that's how the rules are..you can't receive the penalty in the same race if you DNF before it's handed to you so it carries over to the next one.

#1678 jeze

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 23:11

* Cold tyres

* Extremely heavy cars

* Huge slipstream effect

Lap 1 in Korea is a fatal accident waiting to happen. Blame the decision to put the pits where they put it instead of after where Turn 3 is for that...

As for the move... well it was stupid and deserving of a black flag + grid penalty since he took out two. Unlike Grosjean at Spa, he didn't put anyone's life in danger but it was still a big f*ck up at this level to brake at least fifteen metres later than the drivers in front... He probably underestimated the slip stream and dirty air effect though, just as Kimi outbraked himself at Suzuka taking out Alonso.

A huge shame for Button and Rosberg, but luckily for them they weren't in the WDC contention anyway.



#1679 911

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:10

Lap 1 in Korea is a fatal accident waiting to happen. Blame the decision to put the pits where they put it instead of after where Turn 3 is for that...


Interesting comment because I thought the same thing, too. I certainly hope that never happens...

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#1680 XOR

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:44

I certainly hope that never happens...

"Be careful what you wish for because it might come true"

#1681 mich

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:02

Esteban Gutiérrez and Nico Hulkenberg are going to be in Sauber, and Massa will stay in Ferrari.
It's difficult to go to FI or bottom 3 teams because he doesn't have enough sponsors.

Where Kobayashi should be at 2013?
3rd driver of Ferrari?
WEC Toyota during a Pirelli test driver?
Indy? NASCAR? WRC?

What do you think about?

#1682 Jejking

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:10

Kobayashi was penalised, and served his penalty before retiring later in the race.




Pérez was actually very lucky to avoid damaging his car or Hulkenberg's car with his own braking misjudgement at Turn One.

The races were already wrecked. The point in having an ontrack penalty is: none. I call for same treatment for everybody instead of executing two drivers (Grosjean, Schumacher) to control the group.

#1683 dau

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:20

His drive-through "penalty" was farcical because his race had already been destroyed by the extra pit stop, even if he hadn't retired.

He should receive a grid penalty, but apparently these are reserved for the "old man" who has the nerve to race against the boys...

No, those are reserved for drivers who can't serve their penalties in the race.

Edited by dau, 15 October 2012 - 11:19.


#1684 Jon83

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:24

So was there anything in Ted Kravitz's suggestion that Koba may not finish the season?

#1685 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:35

As for the move... well it was stupid and deserving of a black flag + grid penalty since he took out two. .........

He probably underestimated the slip stream and dirty air effect though, just as Kimi outbraked himself at Suzuka taking out Alonso.

Not that I agree with the similarity between them but Kimi didn't get a black flag and/or any kind of penalty for that.

What is the catch? :) Why is everybody so harsh on Kamui?

#1686 Sakae

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:43

So was there anything in Ted Kravitz's suggestion that Koba may not finish the season?

As much as I absolutely hate the idea of losing Kobayashi, however if Sauber is considering promoting Esteban Gutiérrez to full time driver, they might perhaps want to test him in last two or three races, before giving him final nod. From business point of view it makes sense, from human interest point of view it merely confirms, that life could be cruel sometimes.

#1687 Jon83

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:57

As much as I absolutely hate the idea of losing Kobayashi, however if Sauber is considering promoting Esteban Gutiérrez to full time driver, they might perhaps want to test him in last two or three races, before giving him final nod. From business point of view it makes sense, from human interest point of view it merely confirms, that life could be cruel sometimes.


I think it would be very harsh on Kobayashi. I did wonder about them putting Gutierrez in the car for some of the practice sessions, initially in place of Perez (although I presume the sponsors wouldn't allow that)

Monisha Kaltenborn seemed quite forceful in her denial about Gutierrez having his picture taken in race overalls ahead of the 2013 season when asked by the BBC about it. However, it may just have been the specific question that she was denying.

If Kobayshi is going, it does make sense but it just seems to lack a bit of class, especially after all they say about the work he has done to help develop the car. It is a cut-throat world though!

#1688 Jimisgod

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:00

I think it would be very harsh on Kobayashi. I did wonder about them putting Gutierrez in the car for some of the practice sessions, initially in place of Perez (although I presume the sponsors wouldn't allow that)

Monisha Kaltenborn seemed quite forceful in her denial about Gutierrez having his picture taken in race overalls ahead of the 2013 season when asked by the BBC about it. However, it may just have been the specific question that she was denying.

If Kobayshi is going, it does make sense but it just seems to lack a bit of class, especially after all they say about the work he has done to help develop the car. It is a cut-throat world though!


And after the Renault people babied all over Grosjean, the most they can do is treat Kamui like shit after he couldn't find the cash.

If they dump Kamui I will get no greater satisfaction than seeing Sauber crash out of every race next year. They lost a fan, and hopefully the leader gets the sack ASAP.

Edited by Jimisgod, 15 October 2012 - 14:14.


#1689 One

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:07

Williams kept their "secret" driver card in the FP1 role this year. If EG is such a cardm then the choice for a longer term is clear to me. If EG is not ready then nothe the team and EG will sink down the grid.

Hulkenburg choice is interesting if it put next to Kobayashi.

Sauber is being tested if they can achieve title sponsor in TELMEX by keeping their grid position as high as possible. This should be achieved by ... as you knoe ... both Koba and Nico on race seat and gioving EG a FP1 role.

#1690 One

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:08

And after the Renault people babied all over Grosjean, the most they can do is treat Kamui like shit after he couldn't find the cash.

If they dump Kamui I will get no greater satisfaction than seeing Sauber crash out of every race next year. They lost a fan, and hopefully the leader gets the sack ASAP.


Donne if Renault is behid of Boullier is personally behind the crash boy. I do think it is the latter.
Koba is not a crash boy, vis a vis, he is a great over taking talent! :smoking:

#1691 Sanman59

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:21

Williams kept their "secret" driver card in the FP1 role this year. If EG is such a cardm then the choice for a longer term is clear to me. If EG is not ready then nothe the team and EG will sink down the grid.

Hulkenburg choice is interesting if it put next to Kobayashi.

Sauber is being tested if they can achieve title sponsor in TELMEX by keeping their grid position as high as possible. This should be achieved by ... as you knoe ... both Koba and Nico on race seat and gioving EG a FP1 role.





Agree - Sauber will decide to keep Gutiérrez in GP2 for one more year and run him in FP1 to prepare him for a race seat 2014.

:cool:


#1692 Sakae

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:43

I think it would be very harsh on Kobayashi. I did wonder about them putting Gutierrez in the car for some of the practice sessions, initially in place of Perez (although I presume the sponsors wouldn't allow that)

Monisha Kaltenborn seemed quite forceful in her denial about Gutierrez having his picture taken in race overalls ahead of the 2013 season when asked by the BBC about it. However, it may just have been the specific question that she was denying.

If Kobayshi is going, it does make sense but it just seems to lack a bit of class, especially after all they say about the work he has done to help develop the car. It is a cut-throat world though!

I am lost over what kind of business model Kaltenborn is subscribing to. Is this suppose to be a racing team for the pleasure of the ownership, and financing is written off as an advertising campain, or is it an enterprise whose primary objective is to make profit? Her current moves are somewhat confusing, unless some devillish scheme is going on behind the scene.

Edited by Sakae, 15 October 2012 - 18:44.


#1693 Jejking

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:14

Donne if Renault is behid of Boullier is personally behind the crash boy. I do think it is the latter.
Koba is not a crash boy, vis a vis, he is a great over taking talent! :smoking:

Cough cough, Bouillier is the manager of Grosjean. (Yeah, i wasn't aware of that either before saturday) ;)

#1694 superdelphinus

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:19

i think the very fact that the boullier/ grosjean relationship is allowed to happen goes someway to suggesting that f1 is more of a business than a sport (if such a suggestion was needed). Can you imagine sir alex ferguson being allowed to be wayne rooney's agent, as well as the team's manager? such an obvious conflict of interest shouldn't be allowed

#1695 FenderJaguar

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:33

very difficult to understand what he thinks he will gain here


#1696 One

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 22:29

very difficult to understand what he thinks he will gain here


Guys like your opinion admits little about racing incidents and taking chances. Meaning Alonso's acidemt against Kimi is due singularly Alonso.

Edited by One, 15 October 2012 - 22:29.


#1697 One

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 22:30

i think the very fact that the boullier/ grosjean relationship is allowed to happen goes someway to suggesting that f1 is more of a business than a sport (if such a suggestion was needed). Can you imagine sir alex ferguson being allowed to be wayne rooney's agent, as well as the team's manager? such an obvious conflict of interest shouldn't be allowed


:up:

Boullier says Romain is on the right course. :rotfl:

#1698 BillBald

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 23:06

very difficult to understand what he thinks he will gain here


Kamui is anxious to stop his team-mate from overtaking him, especially since Perez got the McLaren drive, which Kamui probably thinks he deserved more.

I don't believe he was thinking rationally at that point.



#1699 baddog

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 23:35

I would suggest he made an error in his braking point because he got himself between two cars and had no clear sight of the track-edge. He was trying to pick his braking based on Jenson and Nico, but they both braked late and he got it wrong. Wholly his error, but just that, an error.

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#1700 Sanman59

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:06

Gutierrez has not been entrusted with any Friday practice time this year. In GP2 he has shown himself able to win 3 races but he's been largely outperformed by his team-mate James Calado and has made too many mistakes. He is not ready for the Sauber drive, even if he has potential. This year we have seen drivers making too many errors early in their F1 careers and the the last thing that's required is another hothead on the grid too soon. Kobayashi's potential to deliver points coupled with his input which helped Sauber design such a good car this year would make him the sensible choice to remain for 2013. Gutierrez could then build up Friday practice experience alongside another year in GP2 or WSR in preparation for a race seat in 2014.

:rolleyes: