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#1901 Crazy Ninja

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:24

Its a bit early to criticise Sauber so heavily before we've even seen Gutierrez have a single race. Formula 1 is a business and if they needed the money then so be it. Im a big Kobayashi fan, it'll be a shame if he's without a seat next year, but after 3 seasons maybe Sauber think he's reached his potential. Add that to the money Gutierrez brings and his promising results from junior categories and you can see why the decision was made.

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#1902 Wander

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:27

I wonder what Kamui is going to do next year. Could he have a career in Indycar like Sato? I don't remember if he said something about whether he'd be interested in driving other series.

#1903 One

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:36

Should Chances arrives, taking test role at Lotus would be Koba's best option for 2013, I believe.

#1904 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:36

Gutierrez is quick but doesn't have the class that Perez so obviously showed in his GP2 seasons. He'll score the odd point, but Sauber will look back at the WCC table at the end of '13 and wonder where half of their points have gone... Hiring Hulkenberg is good as he'll score bucket loads, but so would Kobayashi...

#1905 SonnyViceR

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:40

Better to just take off and head to sportscars. Maybe see if Toyota is interested in hiring another Japanese pilot for Le Mans (rumours saying three cars for LM which would open more seats) and/or WEC... he's their ex-employee too

Edited by SonnyViceR, 23 November 2012 - 14:42.


#1906 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 14:52

Better to just take off and head to sportscars. Maybe see if Toyota is interested in hiring another Japanese pilot for Le Mans (rumours saying three cars for LM which would open more seats) and/or WEC... he's their ex-employee too


I think he'd be great in WEC, but I also think he's still got a lot to give to F1, that some other drivers can't provide...

#1907 SonnyViceR

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:11

I think he'd be great in WEC, but I also think he's still got a lot to give to F1, that some other drivers can't provide...


Agreed, but a factory seat on Toyota - with the possibility of winning the biggest and most important motor race in the world - is FAR better option than going after seat in backmarker F1 team, or being useless reserve driver.

#1908 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:14

Agreed, but a factory seat on Toyota - with the possibility of winning the biggest and most important motor race in the world - is FAR better option than going after seat in backmarker F1 team, or being useless reserve driver.


That's true... I do think he'd give some of the WEC guys a damn good thrashing as well. Would love to see Kamui stuffing a Toyota up the inside of an Audi at Arnage or Tertre Rouge...

#1909 KinoNoNo

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:18

I wonder what Kamui is going to do next year. Could he have a career in Indycar like Sato? I don't remember if he said something about whether he'd be interested in driving other series.


To be honest I think Indycar is a deadend series.

Pre-split Indy racing was on the up as a decent single seater alternative to F1, but now it's a shadow of former glory.

There does seem to be a buzz about WEC at the moment though.


#1910 UPRC

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:25

:down:


'nuff said.

#1911 amarelo

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:36

Agreed, but a factory seat on Toyota - with the possibility of winning the biggest and most important motor race in the world - is FAR better option than going after seat in backmarker F1 team, or being useless reserve driver.


That seems the best option. Another one if there isn't a free seat at Toyota, is to get a connection with Honda, they are rumored to get back to F1 in 2014, and in the mean time KK could do some factory racing in Super GT and some semi-factory racing with JRM/Muscle Milk in the HPD LMP1 while eying a F1 Honda seat in 2014.

#1912 qczhao

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:38

There are still a few avail seats

Lotus - if they don't want Grosjean or Force India, if they don't want Sutil.

#1913 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:40

There are still a few avail seats

Lotus - if they don't want Grosjean or Force India, if they don't want Sutil.


Why would FI want Sutil back? Di Resta has a seat there, and they could get better than Sutil, who is a known quantity.

Lotus will keep Grosjean as Total want him there, and he's scored a shed load of points this year for a 'rookie', despite his mistakes along the way.

#1914 One

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:42

Kamui can have a good manager, too.

#1915 SonnyViceR

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:09

That seems the best option. Another one if there isn't a free seat at Toyota, is to get a connection with Honda, they are rumored to get back to F1 in 2014, and in the mean time KK could do some factory racing in Super GT and some semi-factory racing with JRM/Muscle Milk in the HPD LMP1 while eying a F1 Honda seat in 2014.


Depending how things go in LMP1, Honda might also switch the current customer program into full factory effort after the new regs come into effect. Which would make signing up with those teams you mentioned pretty handy.

Anyway I cannot see Audi (nor especially Porsche in 2014) signing him up as the house is already full, so if Toyota is interested it'd be the safest option. There's obviously GTE and LMP2 too but he'd probably be better off in top class

Edited by SonnyViceR, 23 November 2012 - 16:10.


#1916 Bocmax

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:29

This is devastating for F1 that this shit happens. Kamui is a potential race winner, at least as good as Nico Rosberg, and this is F1 at it's slimiest. I understand teams need money, but this confirms it's become a joke. Kamui deserves to be on the grid. He would do wonders in a Williams, but oh yeah, he doesn't have the $$$$$$$$. What a bizarre sport this has become. Imagine if only the shittest athletes were allowed into the olympics because they brought the money.

#1917 Anja

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:33

What a bizarre sport this has become. Imagine if only the shittest athletes were allowed into the olympics because they brought the money.

You know, some people say that F1 isn't a sport :)

Edited by Anja, 23 November 2012 - 16:34.


#1918 UPRC

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:45

What a bizarre sport this has become. Imagine if only the shittest athletes were allowed into the olympics because they brought the money.


I need to immortalize that quote. It's sad how much truth there is to it. :down:

#1919 Bocmax

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:53

You know, some people say that F1 isn't a sport :)


Apparently it isn't

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#1920 MrFondue

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:59

Imagine if only the shittest athletes were allowed into the olympics because they brought the money.


Already happening ( well, they're not the shittest, but neither is gutierrez). And even in countries like Germany.

#1921 Collective

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:05

This is devastating for F1 that this shit happens. Kamui is a potential race winner, at least as good as Nico Rosberg, and this is F1 at it's slimiest. I understand teams need money, but this confirms it's become a joke. Kamui deserves to be on the grid. He would do wonders in a Williams, but oh yeah, he doesn't have the $$$$$$$$. What a bizarre sport this has become. Imagine if only the shittest athletes were allowed into the olympics because they brought the money.

Curiously enough, the dynamics you criticize are exactly what gave Kamui a F1 chance. His pre-F1 results were nothing to be thrilled about, but he had connections with Toyota.

If you draw a parallel with your Olympics example, Gutierrez's results (champion BMW Int series, champion GP3, 4 GP2 wins and best ranked driver who had not spent 4+ years in the series) are clearly better arguments than anything Kamui did before being brought to the "Olympic" level.

#1922 KinoNoNo

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:12

Seems to me that the romance of an unheralded guy making a spash in F1 has died.





#1923 olliek88

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:13

Curiously enough, the dynamics you criticize are exactly what gave Kamui a F1 chance. His pre-F1 results were nothing to be thrilled about, but he had connections with Toyota.

If you draw a parallel with your Olympics example, Gutierrez's results (champion BMW Int series, champion GP3, 4 GP2 wins and best ranked driver who had not spent 4+ years in the series) are clearly better arguments than anything Kamui did before being brought to the "Olympic" level.


:up: I don't rate Esteban but he's got more pre-F1 pedigree than Koba did when he came into F1. (via a driver academy based massively on his nationality! :drunk: )

#1924 Don_Humpador

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:14

Curiously enough, the dynamics you criticize are exactly what gave Kamui a F1 chance. His pre-F1 results were nothing to be thrilled about, but he had connections with Toyota.

If you draw a parallel with your Olympics example, Gutierrez's results (champion BMW Int series, champion GP3, 4 GP2 wins and best ranked driver who had not spent 4+ years in the series) are clearly better arguments than anything Kamui did before being brought to the "Olympic" level.

Yet he managed to survive in F1 for 3 years without any kind of backing.

No doubt he gained his chance through Toyota and Glock's misfortune ; but he grabbed his opportunity with both hands in a way that very few drivers do. I have always liked that about him.

#1925 Bocmax

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:19

Curiously enough, the dynamics you criticize are exactly what gave Kamui a F1 chance. His pre-F1 results were nothing to be thrilled about, but he had connections with Toyota.

If you draw a parallel with your Olympics example, Gutierrez's results (champion BMW Int series, champion GP3, 4 GP2 wins and best ranked driver who had not spent 4+ years in the series) are clearly better arguments than anything Kamui did before being brought to the "Olympic" level.


Yes understood F1 is a business. Kamui's 'chance' came in filling in for another driver and nobody could argue that he impressed. He fought JB first race with maturity and speed. Sure there's a big yearly selection of GP2 drivers but occasionaly real talent comes through and KB is one of them. KB reminds me a lot of of Jean Alesi, yet he's being booted out. Disgusting.

#1926 KinoNoNo

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:29

Curiously enough, the dynamics you criticize are exactly what gave Kamui a F1 chance. His pre-F1 results were nothing to be thrilled about, but he had connections with Toyota.

If you draw a parallel with your Olympics example, Gutierrez's results (champion BMW Int series, champion GP3, 4 GP2 wins and best ranked driver who had not spent 4+ years in the series) are clearly better arguments than anything Kamui did before being brought to the "Olympic" level.


But this is different though, if it wasn't for unusual circumstances Kamui wouldn't of had the opportunity to prove whether he was good enough. It wasn't as if Toyota's board was demanding Kobyashi get a race seat or they're going to pull funding (ironic I know after they quit 2 races after KK debut).


#1927 XOR

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:33

anything Kamui did before being brought to the "Olympic" level


Wasn't he GP2 Asia champion against Perez, Petrov, Hulkenberg (4 races) and Valsecchi?

#1928 Bunchies

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:35

Wasn't he GP2 Asia champion against Perez, Petrov, Hulkenberg (4 races) and Valsecchi?


Yes, he absolutely was.

He has impressed in a largely eurocentric sport.

Seriously, being Japanese is a hindrance in a sport like F1.

#1929 sosidge

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:40

Yes, he absolutely was.

He has impressed in a largely eurocentric sport.

Seriously, being Japanese is a hindrance in a sport like F1.


Another irony is that for 20+ years corporate Japan forced a string of hopeless drivers on European teams. Yet when the best Japanese driver ever needs a little funding to keep an F1 seat - nothing.

#1930 Talisman

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:48

Perez and Sauber are shit. Really no class. I really hope karma will talk next year.


Perez has no class I agree. No respect for his teammate.

He really confused me in Canada when he said his podium was great to cheer up the team since they hadn't scored any points since Sepang. I was sure that wasn't true. Of course Sauber had scored points since, but it wasn't Sergio but Kamui so presumably they didn't count in Perez' head. I've never heard him say (unlike just about every other driver) I had a bad race but congratulations to Kamui on his good performance today. Again thats a sentiment that never entered his head.

McLaren have a big job ahead of them if they are going to turn him into a decent product.

As for Sauber, I think they've actually worked hard to keep Kamui given the circumstances they're in. Also their final PR statement about his leaving is much warmer than other releases have been for other drivers, and that includes for Perez.

They need money, thats obvious. Hulkenberg is a no-brainer, quick, reliable and brings cash. For their second seat they resisted the richest guy in the world for a month to give Kamui time to bring enough money to match Gutierrez. Unfortunately he didn't manage to do so but we shouldn't forget that Sauber gave him the opportunity to do so.

There will likely be a race in Mexico in 2014, signing a Mexican driver makes absolute sense for Sauber, it gives them a fighting chance to get more Mexican sponsors who are non-Telmex connected. Gutierrez is going to have to be extremely poor indeed to make his signing not make commercial sense for Sauber.

Much as I like Kobayashi he and his management should have realised how important financial backing was going to be regardless of his ideals.

As Frank Williams said, F1 is a business that only turns into a sport for 2 hours on Sunday afternoon. Those who forget that do so at their peril.

#1931 Talisman

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 18:26

on "kamui support" donation
-it happened because there were really many requests and rapidly increasing demands by various people for such things
-wanted to do it earlier, but all those things like tax and many other things are quite complicated
-not targeting tens of millions dollars, but it's part of many efforts to raise funds to secure seat
-not meant to be an anouncement of determination, deflect some fans anxiety or hidden sign or message to possible sponsors, but in order to race in F1 in 2013
-for him to be in F1 is means to race and fight and win, not just to "remain" in F1. he wants to race in competitive team, not backmarker team.


Thanks for the link.

Thought it was interesting that one problem he had with corporate sponsors was that when they asked "so what team will you be driving for?" he was unable to give them an answer, hampering his efforts. This means he knew he was probably not driving for Sauber for a while.

I think he would be best served by targetting RBR and Pirelli's test driver slots. Webber will be moving on soon I'm sure so its a good time to let RBR know his skills especially as Riccardo and Vergne aren't setting the world alight. Alternatively Pirelli will mean he will keep his driving skills up to scratch even if he doesn't race next year, keeping him in the frame better than a dead end seat at Caterham or Virgin.

#1932 Disgrace

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:49

Depending how things go in LMP1, Honda might also switch the current customer program into full factory effort after the new regs come into effect. Which would make signing up with those teams you mentioned pretty handy.

Anyway I cannot see Audi (nor especially Porsche in 2014) signing him up as the house is already full, so if Toyota is interested it'd be the safest option. There's obviously GTE and LMP2 too but he'd probably be better off in top class


No doubt, and in a factory squad to boot otherwise he could be as forgotten overnight as Heidfeld.

#1933 fisssssi

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:59

Posted Image

#1934 Boxerevo

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 23:04

Another irony is that for 20+ years corporate Japan forced a string of hopeless drivers on European teams. Yet when the best Japanese driver ever needs a little funding to keep an F1 seat - nothing.

Scary. :up:

#1935 Dolph

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 23:30

Another irony is that for 20+ years corporate Japan forced a string of hopeless drivers on European teams. Yet when the best Japanese driver ever needs a little funding to keep an F1 seat - nothing.



Ha-ha so true

#1936 muramasa

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 00:29

As for Sauber, I think they've actually worked hard to keep Kamui given the circumstances they're in. Also their final PR statement about his leaving is much warmer than other releases have been for other drivers, and that includes for Perez.

right. actually I think this weekend is the best timing to announce Gutierrez for Kamui's advantage in negotiating with teams - not too soon not too late. Also it seems there's absolutely nothing bitter b/w team and Kamui.

They need money, thats obvious. Hulkenberg is a no-brainer, quick, reliable and brings cash. For their second seat they resisted the richest guy in the world for a month to give Kamui time to bring enough money to match Gutierrez. Unfortunately he didn't manage to do so but we shouldn't forget that Sauber gave him the opportunity to do so.

There will likely be a race in Mexico in 2014, signing a Mexican driver makes absolute sense for Sauber, it gives them a fighting chance to get more Mexican sponsors who are non-Telmex connected. Gutierrez is going to have to be extremely poor indeed to make his signing not make commercial sense for Sauber.

Much as I like Kobayashi he and his management should have realised how important financial backing was going to be regardless of his ideals.

As Frank Williams said, F1 is a business that only turns into a sport for 2 hours on Sunday afternoon. Those who forget that do so at their peril.

true. Also Sauber is the team who gave F1 opportunity to Kobayashi at the end of 2009 in the first place. They dont deserve bashing. And they have lives of 100+ workers at factory + their respective family members at stake. Whatever decision team makes to survive should be respected.


#1937 whitevisor

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:46

Kabayashi and his management had a 3 year chance to get their stuff together so I don't blame Sauber and Monisha one bit.

For how Kobayashi takes the news though, I can see why he is not too downhearted because 3 years as an F1 driver was sure better than 3 years making sushi at his dad's restaurant.

#1938 muramasa

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:52

For how Kobayashi takes the news though, I can see why he is not too downhearted because 3 years as an F1 driver was sure better than 3 years making sushi at his dad's restaurant.

No. That's because his mentality is very strong, he's highly motivated and is working hard to secure F1 seat for 2013.

Ironically or coincidentally, opinions like yours is exactly what Kamui has been dismissing and disagreeing with clearly and squarely long time - most recently during Thursday's interview; http://www.f1-stinge.../23/042596.html

-to "remain" in F1 means nothing to me. I want to race, I want to win, that's the point of being in F1. There's no point in driving in backmarker team. Settling in such situation is like giving up achieving good result in race. If you give up from beginning, nothing starts in the first place.
-others might regard it as selfish. some people actaully say to me "what are you unhappy about, driving F1 is special thing , doesnt matter whatever team or situation" or sth like that. But that's not what I race for.
-people say many things but that's not what I started racing for. Race is there to be won. But step to win in F1 is more than just racing, unfortunate but i'm aware of it. Might be selish, but to me, meaning of the race is to win.


#1939 Bunchies

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 06:17

No. That's because his mentality is very strong, he's highly motivated and is working hard to secure F1 seat for 2013.

Ironically or coincidentally, opinions like yours is exactly what Kamui has been dismissing and disagreeing with clearly and squarely long time - most recently during Thursday's interview; http://www.f1-stinge.../23/042596.html

-to "remain" in F1 means nothing to me. I want to race, I want to win, that's the point of being in F1. There's no point in driving in backmarker team. Settling in such situation is like giving up achieving good result in race. If you give up from beginning, nothing starts in the first place.
-others might regard it as selfish. some people actaully say to me "what are you unhappy about, driving F1 is special thing , doesnt matter whatever team or situation" or sth like that. But that's not what I race for.
-people say many things but that's not what I started racing for. Race is there to be won. But step to win in F1 is more than just racing, unfortunate but i'm aware of it. Might be selish, but to me, meaning of the race is to win.


There's a clip on youtube of Kamui when he was a young boy. http://www.youtube.c...gMeGTvi4#t=108s

He mentions something about Senna, and I can't help but think of how Senna-like this shows his mentality to be.

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#1940 eronrules

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:47

found this clip ... koba vs hulk vs grosjean vs buemi in 2007 ... romain forces hulk out :p

http://www.youtube.c...ature=endscreen

Edited by eronrules, 24 November 2012 - 08:48.


#1941 SonnyViceR

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:39

I can already see his future


Hopefully, it doesn't end the same way as with Nakajima

#1942 Wander

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:21

Come on Kamui. Do a good performance this weekend. That's all there's left to do.

#1943 Don_Humpador

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:48

Come on Kamui. Do a good performance this weekend. That's all there's left to do.

Yep. :up:

#1944 dau

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:13

I don't get this donation thingy. Why only in Japanese? Why not go all out on a crowd-funding site like Indiegogo? I mean, i don't expect anything to come out of this anyway, but limiting it to Japan doesn't really help.

Also hoping for a nice result here. It would be great if he can help Sauber beat Merc. But looking at their performance, they really need rain.

#1945 Talisman

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 16:57

I don't get this donation thingy. Why only in Japanese? Why not go all out on a crowd-funding site like Indiegogo? I mean, i don't expect anything to come out of this anyway, but limiting it to Japan doesn't really help.


Because thats how Japanese think, they can be very insular even if they suffer for it. My parents tried helping Japanese drivers get sponsorship while driving in junior British categories and they cannot even imagine approaching non-Japanese companies for money while living and racing in the UK. Needless to say most of them didn't get money.

I didn't realise Kamui's manager was Japanese, unfortunately I think that only makes things difficult for him due to a lack of connections and possibly a language barrier.

#1946 Bunchies

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 17:05

Because thats how Japanese think, they can be very insular even if they suffer for it. My parents tried helping Japanese drivers get sponsorship while driving in junior British categories and they cannot even imagine approaching non-Japanese companies for money while living and racing in the UK. Needless to say most of them didn't get money.

I didn't realise Kamui's manager was Japanese, unfortunately I think that only makes things difficult for him due to a lack of connections and possibly a language barrier.


Very interesting, a lot of Asians tend to be that way, though not to the extent that Japanese (and some Koreans) are.

Anyway, I'm sitting here with paypal/credit card in hand, ready to donate. I have rudimentary understanding of Japanese, but I am ready to donate as soon as I know what I'm getting into.

#1947 Bunchies

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 17:05

Because thats how Japanese think, they can be very insular even if they suffer for it. My parents tried helping Japanese drivers get sponsorship while driving in junior British categories and they cannot even imagine approaching non-Japanese companies for money while living and racing in the UK. Needless to say most of them didn't get money.

I didn't realise Kamui's manager was Japanese, unfortunately I think that only makes things difficult for him due to a lack of connections and possibly a language barrier.


Very interesting, a lot of Asians tend to be that way, though not to the extent that Japanese (and some Koreans) are.

Anyway, I'm sitting here with paypal/credit card in hand, ready to donate. I have rudimentary understanding of Japanese, but I am ready to donate as soon as I know what I'm getting into.

#1948 Longtimefan

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 17:14

Sometimes F1 does my head in.

Grosjean and Maldonado have seats, Kamui is out.

The sponsors should be ashamed of themselves.



#1949 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 17:21

I can already see his future


Hopefully, it doesn't end the same way as with Nakajima


Well Nakajima won the Formula Nippon championship this year so you could do worse than that ...

Regarding Kamui. Good, but hasn't shown anything extraordinary and he has been outshone by his team mate. If you don't perform spectacular and don't have a budget you always put yourself at risk to be replaced by decent or good drivers with a budget. Nothing new in F1 really.

I must say I think it's worse to see Heikki out of the sport but it is what it is.

#1950 Bunchies

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 17:32

Regarding Kamui. Good, but hasn't shown anything extraordinary and he has been outshone by his team mate.


Hardly. Only if you look at the results I guess. His podiums came from tire strategy due to being knocked out in Q2.

I follow the live timing every single race, and these two are about as close in performance as teammates can be. It's just that Perez gets the better strategy on race day because he has tended to be worse in qualifying.