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#2101 Les

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 15:14

Lost in translation?

The website he linked to is jokey and the the comment from Murray Walker was a 'Murrayism', it's funny because it's a clearly ridiculous mistake. Nobody is seriously comparing, lol.


Indeed that's true and its pretty funny. Obviously that's what I was getting at in case anyone else didn't understand.

Being all serious though I would have to say that I agree that Kamui is the best Japanese driver ever.

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#2102 muramasa

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 16:04


ah, ok, cheers.


I always find this "japanese driver" thing annoying, so.
I've never seen anyone saying "xxx is best Belgian/Mexican driver", "can xxx be the best spanish driver?", etc. In fact it would be quite strange to ask "who's best british/french/brazilian driver", or refer to Lewis or Jense or Vergne or Fisi or whoever in a such context.
When Sato came, people said "best japanese driver" and refering to Nakajima sr, Suzuki, Ukyo or Tora.
When Nakajima jr came, people were referring to Sato, Ukyo, Suzuki, Nakajima sr.
When Kobayashi came, people were referring to Nakajima jr, Sato, Ukyo, Suzuki, Nakajima sr.
To me that's nothing but puzzling, I hope this nonsense stop soon. That autosport article bothering to mention all Japanese point scoring drivers is funny indeed to me. Usually I never think of Mansell, JB, Hill etc when evaluating Lewis, never think of Alonso etc when evaluating Alg, just as I never think of Sato, Suzuki etc when evaluating Kobayashi.


#2103 Don_Humpador

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 17:04

ah, ok, cheers.


I always find this "japanese driver" thing annoying, so.
I've never seen anyone saying "xxx is best Belgian/Mexican driver", "can xxx be the best spanish driver?", etc. In fact it would be quite strange to ask "who's best british/french/brazilian driver", or refer to Lewis or Jense or Vergne or Fisi or whoever in a such context.
When Sato came, people said "best japanese driver" and refering to Nakajima sr, Suzuki, Ukyo or Tora.
When Nakajima jr came, people were referring to Sato, Ukyo, Suzuki, Nakajima sr.
When Kobayashi came, people were referring to Nakajima jr, Sato, Ukyo, Suzuki, Nakajima sr.
To me that's nothing but puzzling, I hope this nonsense stop soon. That autosport article bothering to mention all Japanese point scoring drivers is funny indeed to me. Usually I never think of Mansell, JB, Hill etc when evaluating Lewis, never think of Alonso etc when evaluating Alg, just as I never think of Sato, Suzuki etc when evaluating Kobayashi.

I agree.

I think it's because Japan is outside of Europe. You never hear about each German driver that comes along, or British, or Italian..

If Gutierrez starts doing crazy things, people might compare him to Perez.. but again, it's outside Europe..

#2104 Wander

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 17:08

It's also simply a question of how many drivers you actually get from different countries. I think the Finns get compared to each other a bit, surely a new guy from Russia would get compared to Petrov etc.

They don't compare the Brazilians, Germans, Italian and British drivers so much, cause there's been so many of them.

Edited by Wander, 12 December 2012 - 17:08.


#2105 KinoNoNo

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 18:09

I'm pretty sure that Schumacher when he first came on the scene was compared to the great German drivers of the past.

Hell when Vettel arrived he was being toted as the next Schumacher from the start, even though there was other German drivers around.

You can bet if a promising driver came through from the States, he'd be forever compared to the likes of Mario Andretti, Phil Hill or Dan Gurney.

#2106 Craven Morehead

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:59

Yep. If Checko has a great season next year, people will compare him to Pedro R.

#2107 Sakae

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:44

Irritating as it may, I don't think reference to Kobayashi's nationality was meant in pejorative manner. Many other drivers are identified on pages of Autosport by their nationality as well, and I would not lose any sleep over that. I think Kamu earned his respect in paddock and by fans, despite some silly rhetoric when adrenalin was at high level during last incident, but that has nothing to do from where you are.

If I may add, he has my sympathy for enduring his life outside Japan. I am not certain how well he could communicate when he moved to Europe, but in reverse situation I know what I went through arriving to Japan without being fluent in Japanese language. Add massive cultural differences, food, etc. and I can imagine that he must have been constantly under a lot of pressure unrelated to racing; I gather he was also without female companionship. Considering then whole picture, he has performed extremely well IMO. Kamu communicates in English, but that is not official language in Switzerland; add therefore German and French encounters outside Sauber's garage, and one gets the picture how his life evolved on daily basis. I wish him well, and hoping it's no end for him in F1, and somehow he will find his way back. If not, life goes on, and he can be proud over what he has achieved.


#2108 Don_Humpador

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:04

If I may add, he has my sympathy for enduring his life outside Japan. I am not certain how well he could communicate when he moved to Europe, but in reverse situation I know what I went through arriving to Japan without being fluent in Japanese language. Add massive cultural differences, food, etc. and I can imagine that he must have been constantly under a lot of pressure unrelated to racing; I gather he was also without female companionship. Considering then whole picture, he has performed extremely well IMO. Kamu communicates in English, but that is not official language in Switzerland; add therefore German and French encounters outside Sauber's garage, and one gets the picture how his life evolved on daily basis. I wish him well, and hoping it's no end for him in F1, and somehow he will find his way back. If not, life goes on, and he can be proud over what he has achieved.

Nicely said. :up:

He might not have had female companionship, but he did have a dog in Paris called Alfred.

But he lost him. :|

Edited by Don_Humpador, 13 December 2012 - 09:05.


#2109 mich

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 20:58

ah, ok, cheers.


I always find this "japanese driver" thing annoying, so.
I've never seen anyone saying "xxx is best Belgian/Mexican driver", "can xxx be the best spanish driver?", etc. In fact it would be quite strange to ask "who's best british/french/brazilian driver", or refer to Lewis or Jense or Vergne or Fisi or whoever in a such context.
When Sato came, people said "best japanese driver" and refering to Nakajima sr, Suzuki, Ukyo or Tora.
When Nakajima jr came, people were referring to Sato, Ukyo, Suzuki, Nakajima sr.
When Kobayashi came, people were referring to Nakajima jr, Sato, Ukyo, Suzuki, Nakajima sr.
To me that's nothing but puzzling, I hope this nonsense stop soon. That autosport article bothering to mention all Japanese point scoring drivers is funny indeed to me. Usually I never think of Mansell, JB, Hill etc when evaluating Lewis, never think of Alonso etc when evaluating Alg, just as I never think of Sato, Suzuki etc when evaluating Kobayashi.


It's just because Japanese(also Asian) has no winner in spite of big achievement of Japanese manufacturer, Honda, Bridgestone and etc. Kobayashi is just a 3rd Japanese driver who got a podium for two decades, isn't he? Asian drivers making bigger impact in F1 have been very very rare. I think people said "Can xxx be the best Japanese" meaning "Can xxx be the first Asian winner?".

#2110 Richard T

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 16:40

1 353 922 GBP as of Dec 14

#2111 Sakae

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 20:18

Can he, and will he keep the money, if his F1 career vanishes?

#2112 beute

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 21:34

Can he, and will he keep the money, if his F1 career vanishes?


no.
the money will be returned in the case he doesnt land a seat in F1

#2113 George Costanza

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 21:44

If Räikkönen is considered as a top driver, surely he would have been kept over Alonso.

If Prost is considered as a top driver, surely he would have been kept over Senna.

If Schumacher is considered as a top driver, surely he would have been kept over Räikkönen.

If Hill is considered as a top driver, surely he would have been kept over Frentzen.


This makes no sense...

Damon Hill back in '99 was already near retirement.

Schumacher back in '06, was probably "burned out", but I feel that he was not given the chance to stay at Ferrari.

Kimi and Alonso? Kimi didn't "want" it at the time back in '08-'09.

Prost and Senna? We all know that story.

#2114 DanardiF1

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 23:47

ah, ok, cheers.


I always find this "japanese driver" thing annoying, so.
I've never seen anyone saying "xxx is best Belgian/Mexican driver", "can xxx be the best spanish driver?", etc. In fact it would be quite strange to ask "who's best british/french/brazilian driver", or refer to Lewis or Jense or Vergne or Fisi or whoever in a such context.
When Sato came, people said "best japanese driver" and refering to Nakajima sr, Suzuki, Ukyo or Tora.
When Nakajima jr came, people were referring to Sato, Ukyo, Suzuki, Nakajima sr.
When Kobayashi came, people were referring to Nakajima jr, Sato, Ukyo, Suzuki, Nakajima sr.
To me that's nothing but puzzling, I hope this nonsense stop soon. That autosport article bothering to mention all Japanese point scoring drivers is funny indeed to me. Usually I never think of Mansell, JB, Hill etc when evaluating Lewis, never think of Alonso etc when evaluating Alg, just as I never think of Sato, Suzuki etc when evaluating Kobayashi.


It's the Euro-centric nature of F1 that gives drivers who come from further afield (and due to it's rich motoring history, Japan was the first major force from outside Europe and the Americas) an aura of mystery. So naturally the established lot want to compare the newest arrival from the Far East to the last driver who raced. In the late 80's, Satoru Nakajima was a trailblazer for Japanese motorsport, and as he was supported by Honda there was this attitude of 'let's see what the Japanese have brought along', which then came up when Suzuki, Katayama etc etc all the way through to Kamui came through to F1.

Japan survives with a very healthy but isolated motorsport industry, and it's only natural that when someone breaks out of that they are viewed as something more special. I see it as they are being treated with respect for coming to Europe from the possibility of a very good, but perhaps easier, career racing SuperGT or FNippon back in Japan.

#2115 fisssssi

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 00:06

I hope Grosjean's victory in the ROC doesn't affect Kobayashi's chances... I think he would be awesome in the 2nd Lotus and I'm still wishing for it to happen.

#2116 muramasa

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:45

no.
the money will be returned in the case he doesnt land a seat in F1

no. as posted in this thread before, the money wont be returned whatever happens. 

He wont keep it either (Most likely it will be donated to some charity if the worst happens)

As I said before, everything will be disclosed and there will be tax auditing so there can be no chance they will cheat with the money.



#2117 Sakae

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:21

I am sorry for raising question of money again, but obviously I haven't followed whole thread closely. It actually makes sense what muramasa is explaining.

Edited by Sakae, 17 December 2012 - 09:22.


#2118 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:49

I hope Grosjean's victory in the ROC doesn't affect Kobayashi's chances... I think he would be awesome in the 2nd Lotus and I'm still wishing for it to happen.


I like Koba but Grosjean has more potential.

#2119 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 10:43

I like Koba but Grosjean has more potential.

I agree with you. I've been critical of Grosjean this year but I want him to succeed, he has too much potential to waste away. If he calms down a little then he can become a WDC challenger, Valencia this year shows he can overtake (and be overtaken) without issue.

I wonder if Koba can be creative with the money and say, "I'll use the money to fund an Indycar driver in 2013, hoping that I'll be successful and hope to win a seat back in F1 from that in 2014."

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#2120 Lord_Shaitan

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:20

I like Koba but Grosjean has more potential.

This :up: . GroGro is a damn fast and manages tyres very wisely. With more focus on his driving (on the first laps especially) he is capable of matching and beating "the Big Boys".

Kamui is a nice guy and as a racing driver he has the ability of making some exciting manouvres, his speed is OK but in my eyes he has no ability to become a spectacular driver as Ham, Alo, Vet, Raikk are, GroGro has IMO.

#2121 Wander

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:34

Damon Hill back in '99 was already near retirement.


96.

#2122 XOR

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 13:01

This :up: . GroGro is a damn fast and manages tyres very wisely


the F1 grid consists of 22 damn fast drivers
but "to finish first, you must first finish"


#2123 MattPete

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 14:07

I think it's fair to say the Kobayashi is a better racer than Grosjean, and may always be.

#2124 balage06

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 14:49

I think it's fair to say the Kobayashi is a better racer than Grosjean, and may always be.

I don't think so. He was a better racer than Kobayashi in junior categories.

2006 F3 Euro Series:
8. Kamui Kobayashi - ASM Formule (20 races, 0 wins, 3 podiums) - 34 pts
13. Romain Grosjean - Signature Plus (20 races, 0 wins, 1 podium) - 19 pts

2007 F3 Euro Series:
1. Romain Grosjean - ASM Formule (20 races, 6 wins, 12 podiums) - 106 pts
4. Kamui Kobayashi - ASM Formule (20 races, 1 win, 7 podiums) - 59 pts

2008 GP2 Asia Series:
1. Romain Grosjean - ART Grand Prix (10 races, 4 wins, 5 podiums) - 61 pts
6. Kamui Kobayashi - DAMS (10 races, 2 wins, 3 podiums) - 22 pts

2008 GP2 Series:
4. Romain Grosjean - ART Grand Prix (20 races, 2 wins, 6 podiums) - 62 pts
16. Kamui Kobayashi - DAMS (20 races, 1 win, 1 podium) - 10 pts

2009 GP2 Series:
4. Romain Grosjean - Barwa Addax (12 races, 2 wins, 3 podiums) - 45 pts
16. Kamui Kobayashi - DAMS (20 races, 0 win, 1 podium) - 13 pts

Edited by balage06, 17 December 2012 - 15:10.


#2125 MattPete

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 18:06

Grosjean: 7 retirements
Kobayashi: 4 retirements (1 caused by Grosjean!).

#2126 Diderlo

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 18:20

Grosjean got the Lotus seat for 2013.
I'm a bit sad for Kobayashi, but maybe he'll find some other seat.

#2127 KavB

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 18:38

Guess no seat for Kamui now. :(

#2128 One

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 19:20

WHo gets into the FI?

#2129 Louis Mr. F1

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 19:30

WHo gets into the FI?


most likely Sutil.
i really wanted Kobayashi to get the Lotus seat. :|

#2130 Juan Kerr

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 19:57

I don't think so. He was a better racer than Kobayashi in junior categories.

2006 F3 Euro Series:
8. Kamui Kobayashi - ASM Formule (20 races, 0 wins, 3 podiums) - 34 pts
13. Romain Grosjean - Signature Plus (20 races, 0 wins, 1 podium) - 19 pts

2007 F3 Euro Series:
1. Romain Grosjean - ASM Formule (20 races, 6 wins, 12 podiums) - 106 pts
4. Kamui Kobayashi - ASM Formule (20 races, 1 win, 7 podiums) - 59 pts

2008 GP2 Asia Series:
1. Romain Grosjean - ART Grand Prix (10 races, 4 wins, 5 podiums) - 61 pts
6. Kamui Kobayashi - DAMS (10 races, 2 wins, 3 podiums) - 22 pts

2008 GP2 Series:
4. Romain Grosjean - ART Grand Prix (20 races, 2 wins, 6 podiums) - 62 pts
16. Kamui Kobayashi - DAMS (20 races, 1 win, 1 podium) - 10 pts

2009 GP2 Series:
4. Romain Grosjean - Barwa Addax (12 races, 2 wins, 3 podiums) - 45 pts
16. Kamui Kobayashi - DAMS (20 races, 0 win, 1 podium) - 13 pts

Kobayashi is far better at handling F1 cars, these stats are from different series, Kobayashi clearly has better judgement of the limits of an F1 car whereas Romain's strategy is to always drive over the limit hoping he might underestimate and stay on the track now and again!

#2131 swerved

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 20:33

Guess no seat for Kamui now. :(



He's given up for 2013, maybe Grosjean getting the seat was the nail in the coffin.


ETA: Link


http://www.kamui-kob...ontents/?p=7716

Edited by swerved, 17 December 2012 - 20:34.


#2132 Anja

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 20:40

Sad news, I just hope that he will indeed be back in 2014.

#2133 David Lightman

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 20:46

Thank God we still have the excitement of watching Di Resta light up the track to look forward to next year.

o_O

#2134 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 20:54

To All the fans,

Thank you for the big support. I am very appreciated that many of you have donated and trying to make donation.

I must mention this that since the donation started, it has become quite big news in Japan. And because of your big support, it gave huge influences to some of Japanese companies and I started receiving good support from them.

And I was in the position to bring a budget of 8 million Euro at least. If you could imagine the time I had, it was overwhelming reaction and it shows there still is a great potential from Japanese companies.

Unfortunately, the time was still short and I am not able to secure the seat with competitive F1 team for 2013. I have to admit that it is very sad and feel sorry for fans and Japanese companies who supported me. But I am still confident to make it happen in 2014.

I would like to stop the donation for now and while I will save all the money for 2014, I start to look what is the best option for 2013 and also 2014. My main priority is to secure the competitive F1 seat in 2014.

I have no interests to race any other categories.

I will make an announcement as soon as I make a decision for 2013.


So, please wait and really looking forward your support for coming year, too.

All the best,

KAMUI KOBAYASHI

Tokyo, Japan

December 18, 2012

I'm getting mixed messages here, 'no interest in racing in other series' but he'll make an announcement later what he'll do next year? I wonder if Lotus (a competitive seat) was what he was hoping for most, but has Caterham/Force India as a back-up to choose. Otherwise he's just going to announce he resting on his sofa for a year, which would be odd :well: .

#2135 Sakae

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 21:07

I am hoping to see Kamu back in 2014, despite it might be a difficult task, but as a fighter it will strengthen his determination.

頑張ってください 

#2136 MrFondue

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 21:08

I'm getting mixed messages here, 'no interest in racing in other series' but he'll make an announcement later what he'll do next year? I wonder if Lotus (a competitive seat) was what he was hoping for most, but has Caterham/Force India as a back-up to choose. Otherwise he's just going to announce he resting on his sofa for a year, which would be odd :well: .

Maybe he'll try to secure a position as a 3rd driver (like Hülkenberg did)

#2137 KavB

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 21:09

Perhaps the best he can hope for is a Force India test seat with practice sessions.

#2138 One

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 21:11

Kamui do not want to drive Caterham. Should this be a good decision? I think yes.

Do Catherham build new chassis for 2013 or should they recycle 2012 with new aero package?

#2139 stillOrange

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 21:11

Stay close Kamui.

I'll miss him.

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#2140 KavB

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 21:13

Kamui do not want to drive Caterham. Should this be a good decision? I think yes.

Do Catherham build new chassis for 2013 or should they recycle 2012 with new aero package?

Kovalainen is finding it difficult to stay in F1 despite impressing last year. You need a car which can score points to move up the grid. It's sad but true.

#2141 One

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 21:16

Kovalainen is finding it difficult to stay in F1 despite impressing last year. You need a car which can score points to move up the grid. It's sad but true.


I agree.

Kamui to be back in a good garage. Now where? Hope Williams replacing pastor. (cash...)

Edited by One, 17 December 2012 - 21:17.


#2142 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 21:34

Nice to hear that Kobayashi is looking at 2014, but I doubt he will land a seat by that time as well. Teams will forget about Kobayashi, he's nothing special really. At least not better than other drivers in the midfield group.

Lotus won't take him, not good enough. Can't really see Sauber taking him back either if Gutiérrez fails to impress. And he was never a candidate at Force India, only by the media.

#2143 Longtimefan

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 21:36

Sad to hear this. I find it disgusting that someone like Kamui is out of F1 yet crash kiddy Grosjean has his seat.

idiocy


#2144 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 21:38

Sad to hear this. I find it disgusting that someone like Kamui is out of F1 yet crash kiddy Grosjean has his seat.

idiocy

Has his seat? Kobayashi was never a candidate at Lotus, so how can Grosjean have his seat then? :drunk:

#2145 rijole1

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 21:41

I'm gonna miss Kamui, hope he finds a seat to next year :|

#2146 Shiroo

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 22:11

Has his seat? Kobayashi was never a candidate at Lotus, so how can Grosjean have his seat then? :drunk:

Seems like he was. Coz right after Gro announcment same day he makes his announcment that 8mln wasnt enough

#2147 midgrid

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 22:13

A third driver role seems like the best option, but which team offers the best chance of returning to racing action in 2014? My first instinct is Force India.

On another note, 2013 will be the first time in 30 years with no Japanese drivers, teams, or engine suppliers. The end of an era; hopefully Suzuka will remain on the calendar for many years to come.

Also, €8 million bodes well or the future, if he can maintain this kid of momentum. And if Hülkenberg and perhaps Sutil can return after a year's absence, then there's no reason why Kobayashi can't emulate them.

Edited by midgrid, 17 December 2012 - 22:15.


#2148 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 22:16

He's never racing in F1 again, so does he keep all the donated money?



#2149 midgrid

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 22:19

He's never racing in F1 again, so does he keep all the donated money?


The press release states that the money will be used in his efforts to secure a 2014 seat.

See also muramasa's post above.

Edited by midgrid, 17 December 2012 - 22:20.


#2150 XOR

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 22:20

therefore, no reason to watch the 2013 season