Jump to content


Photo

Kobayashi Thread


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
2248 replies to this topic

#2201 Spillage

Spillage
  • Member

  • 911 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:13

Koba seems to have been dealt with in the same way Adrian Sutil was. A good, established driver, but teams aren't looking for those; they're looking for future champions, and I don't really see Koba achieving that. Whilst a few years ago drivers like this (Trulli, Panis, Heidfeld etc.) were able to find seats, in the increasingly money-orientated world of F1 all of the midfield teams are looking for backing, so its difficult for these 'midfield' drivers to find seats.

Advertisement

#2202 handel

handel
  • Member

  • 416 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:13

I am still perplexed by Force India not showing interest in Kamui, 8million euros + decent speed definitely deserves a seat. How ironical what 6 point difference has led to, one got arguably the best seat and other is out of F1.
Cruel world indeed!


Depends how Sutil left I suppose. Plus he has Medion sponsorship doesn't he which is a decent amount. Who do we reckon's getting that seat again?

#2203 XOR

XOR
  • Member

  • 83 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:14

How ironical what 6 point difference has led to, one got arguably the best seat and other is out of F1.

you still think that the points was the reason?
Koba and Checo was the closest teammates (91%) right after McLaren pair.

#2204 Vickyy

Vickyy
  • Member

  • 189 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:25

you still think that the points was the reason?
Koba and Checo was the closest teammates (91%) right after McLaren pair.


No, I meant for on-paper comparison, no denying that Mexican thingy hand.

#2205 Wander

Wander
  • Member

  • 2,279 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 18 December 2012 - 14:57

Some people apparently don't realize that Kamui fans are indeed disappointed mainly because an another driver who is as good as Kamui, but no better, got the best seat around while Kamui was left without a seat at all.

It's just disappointing. That's all. Especially when Kamui is the more exciting driver to watch.

#2206 Bunchies

Bunchies
  • Member

  • 1,500 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 18 December 2012 - 15:20

:lol:

No shit, what is you point with your defensiveness :lol:

Japan is a way more important market for manufacturers than Mexico. McLaren doesn't sell squat in Mexico :)


That's the point.

If you don't understand this, then I don't even want to share this Earth with you.

#2207 TF110

TF110
  • Member

  • 856 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 18 December 2012 - 20:07

You know Perez is backed by THE richest man in the world? That's a HUGE deal. Kobayashi meanwhile is backed by mostly loyal Japanese followers. This is a corporate world we live in. I hope for Kobayashis sake that Perez is a bust. If not, you'll just see McLaren will let him down like they did Hamilton multiple times this year. How is Perez rated better than Kobayashi when they were separated by 6 points? It would have been advantage Kobayashi had Grosjean not taken him out @Spa. Looking at it that way you can't deny the personal backing had something to do with Perez getting a McLaren seat instead of Kobayashi. Or Grosjean over him.

#2208 selespeed

selespeed
  • Member

  • 1,059 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 18 December 2012 - 20:20

It would have been advantage Kobayashi had Grosjean not taken him out @Spa.



:confused: :confused:

#2209 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 2,665 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 18 December 2012 - 20:20

How is Perez rated better than Kobayashi when they were separated by 6 points? It would have been advantage Kobayashi had Grosjean not taken him out @Spa. Looking at it that way you can't deny the personal backing had something to do with Perez getting a McLaren seat instead of Kobayashi. Or Grosjean over him.

Kobayashi was Grosjeaned at Spa, but Perez was also affected by this crash (it is not written in stone that Kamui would've finish in front of him in that race, he didn't have a good start off the line) + he was Maldonadoed 2 times losing big haul of points.
The biggest difference maker here is that Perez is less experienced and younger than Kobayashi. So while he has matched Kamui without big problems from the beginning (last year he outqualified him more often than not and scored the same amount of points in those races in which they were participating together), he is expected to be a better bet for the future.

And you can't say Grosjean only got a seat over Kobayashi only due to personal backing. 1 year is too little to write off such a quick guy. Lotus would be mad to waste 1 year with him and not give him another after he has shown such a great speed. Many drivers are becoming much more complete packages in their 2nd or 3rd F1 seasons.

#2210 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 18 December 2012 - 23:49

Koba needs much stronger branding. He suffer in selling strong points and nailing his position IMHO. New strategy therefore.

#2211 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,577 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 December 2012 - 00:19

Koba needs much stronger branding. He suffer in selling strong points and nailing his position IMHO. New strategy therefore.


I agree. He doesn't have much of an brand image that top teams look for because they can use it with their sponsors. Perez seemingly does for the Mexican and Latin American market and that's what helped him get a seat with McLaren, as Vodafone and other sponsors would like to use a McLaren driver to tap into that particular market.

In that sense Koba is very 'pure', he only seems to be about the driving, which whilst very noble isn't something that's really going to cut it in modern F1. What I always found interesting though is how McLaren and Mercedes managed to utilise Kimi Raikkonen in that area during his time there... he appeared in a lot of Mercedes advertising despite not having much brand image.

However, Kimi has cultivated an almost 'extreme sports' image for himself, with his attitude, social life and off-duty pastimes. Coca-Cola might've seen this hence why they got on board with Lotus and their Burn brand... aligning a brand with Kimi's 'cool factor' really gives them something to work with.

For Kamui it was a bit unfortunate that he was driving for Sauber, a team with not the most exciting image. A team that more aggressively markets, along with his driving skill, could've helped a lot more.



#2212 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 2,769 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:02

I think they missed the K-pop or J-pop style market for Kamui. That Asian market will be the biggest growth area with the most increase in disposable income in the next few decades.

It would be a good way to branch into the youth population of Asia, which is where F1 is definitely losing to MotoGP. It's accepted fact that MotoGP will likely have an Indonesian race and 2nd Malaysian race in the next 4 years, if not more races in SE Asia.


#2213 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,577 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:10

I think they missed the K-pop or J-pop style market for Kamui. That Asian market will be the biggest growth area with the most increase in disposable income in the next few decades.

It would be a good way to branch into the youth population of Asia, which is where F1 is definitely losing to MotoGP. It's accepted fact that MotoGP will likely have an Indonesian race and 2nd Malaysian race in the next 4 years, if not more races in SE Asia.


Is the J/K-pop market relevant to the F1 market though? I think you'd be marketing a driver in one way for a sport that doesn't really fit that image, though if that is what is needed to generate interest in that region, I suppose you have to try what you can!

#2214 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 2,769 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:20

Is the J/K-pop market relevant to the F1 market though? I think you'd be marketing a driver in one way for a sport that doesn't really fit that image, though if that is what is needed to generate interest in that region, I suppose you have to try what you can!


They marketed Senna with a focus on his quasi-religious leanings because, I assume, that was popular in the Latin American market.

Even go back to Clark and his "humble farmer" image was stressed because a lot of Europeans and Americans like the idea of the modest farm boy coming good and beating the wealthier "playboys" (who were also a stereotype the media ran with).

#2215 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,577 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:37

They marketed Senna with a focus on his quasi-religious leanings because, I assume, that was popular in the Latin American market.

Even go back to Clark and his "humble farmer" image was stressed because a lot of Europeans and Americans like the idea of the modest farm boy coming good and beating the wealthier "playboys" (who were also a stereotype the media ran with).


Good points. Maybe there should be a Kobayashi manga/animé where he takes on the F1 field? To be honest, with the growth of manga and animé worldwide, that would be a good idea for building a global brand for Kamui!

#2216 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 774 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:38

They marketed Senna with a focus on his quasi-religious leanings because, I assume, that was popular in the Latin American market.

Even go back to Clark and his "humble farmer" image was stressed because a lot of Europeans and Americans like the idea of the modest farm boy coming good and beating the wealthier "playboys" (who were also a stereotype the media ran with).


I don't think Senna Sr or Clark were 'marketed' at all. Senna's religious beliefs were just that, his religious beliefs which he happened to be happy to talk about. The Latin American market was not important back in the 80's and 90's with the Brazilians especially being hard hit by economic problems.

I think driver choices are increasingly influenced by nationality and that is where Kamui and others are weakest. Japan is a stagnant market and there is the additional negative aspect that some other major markets like China are hostile to strong Japanese branding, therefore why would anyone want to hire a Japanese driver from a marketing perspective? I'd add that Eurozone, especially G1erman and British drivers (through oversupply) are increasingly hampered by their nationality too, apparently Di Resta was not on McLaren's radar at all because they wanted to diversify their driver nationalities to increase sponsorship opportunities. I'm sure Mercedes will welcome going from an all-German to a German/British line-up next year for the same reason.

Essentially drivers from BRIC economies (or those related to them like Mexico and Venezuela) are going to be more attractive because those countries are associated with substantial room for growth and therefore sponsorship opportunities. Also Mexico itself is a major investment target for automotive companies so that brings some sponsorship synergy if you have a Mexican driver.

In that sense McLaren's decision to take Perez makes absolutely perfect sense and I'd be surprised if guys like Maldonaldo don't have very long careers within F1 while arguably better 'old world' drivers from Europe and Japan come and go.

Edited by Talisman, 19 December 2012 - 10:38.


#2217 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 1,248 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:00

Why not give the donators their money back, go to Japan and walk into a Nippon/SuperGT drive and actually earn a living from it?

Beats going to work in yer Dad's sushi restaurant......

#2218 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 3,055 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 19 December 2012 - 13:14

I think driver choices are increasingly influenced by nationality and that is where Kamui and others are weakest. Japan is a stagnant market and there is the additional negative aspect that some other major markets like China are hostile to strong Japanese branding, therefore why would anyone want to hire a Japanese driver from a marketing perspective?

True. Actually if I were one of board members in Canon, Nikon, Honda etc, I might hesitate pushing Japan image forward now. Japan government and media are unnecessarily, stupidly and naively provoking China and Korea over territorial dispute and doing really bad spin domestically about China and Korea as well as Russia, and instigating anti-China/Korea sentiment among Japanese so much, and to my greatest disappointment many Japanese take the spin seriously.

In Japan after Meiji restoration (circa 1870), bureaucrats, not politicians, have been holding the real power over all domestic issues and controling the country and media. So, in that sense Japan is not a genuine democratic country yet. And, making/keeping Japan a subordinate country to the US is how they retain their domestic power after WWII. Right now Japan beaurocrats are kind of people who happily kiss the US's ass and sink the Japan ship in order for their interest only, rather than work for and aspire Japan's prosperity.

We need to strip beurocrats of the ruling power and wake up and be truly democratic. That was nearly happening 3 years ago when in the prev major election the long ruling LibDem was overturnedand, and Japan Democratic Party took mojority in lower house. The prev government tried to build deeper alliance relationship with China and make Japan play centric role in Asia and actively contribute to economics and peace in this region, and oust the US base from Okinawa and build equal relationship with the US, but media gave huge bashing to JP Dem Party and eventually squashed it.
New LibDem led cabinet and PM Abe, elected in major election jst last week, is miserable right wingers and really dangerous and imcompetent. Abe is pathetic chicken tho, weaker dog bark louder.. Also his wife is into sort of spiritual thingies..omg
This anti-China campaign is doing real harm to many Japanese companies operating in China especially and wanting to go global. they are losing huge opportunities in Chinese market. Maybe Japanese government/media and people want Japanese companies to lose huge money/opportunities and want to be poor together. This naive and exclusive mindset, lack of broader perspective and independent thinking is one huge weakness of modern Japanese.

Back to Kamui, he'd had to drive and impress in F1 in such situation. Many things are out of individual's control. If Japan politics has leadership, things might have been hugely different to many people not just Kamui.
Japanese motorsport suffers too, F-Nippon and SuperGT has potential to go pan-Asia and evolve into really dynamic series in the whole Asia region that can then compete and interact with European series. How exciting that would be. Actually organizers are aspiring so and making efforts, but there're too many obstacles that are totally out of their control. Such shame.



#2219 TheUltimateWorrier

TheUltimateWorrier
  • Member

  • 836 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 19 December 2012 - 13:37

I'm surprised that no one like Caterham is interested, especially with the 8 million kitty, or perhaps Kamui isn't. If I were his manager, I'd tell him 'take the money and go to Indycar, we will win the title in 2014. Then hope Honda want their engines and you, Kamui, in F1 in 2015.' If he can't win a competitive seat for 2013, then sitting on the sidelines for a year won't change that for 2014 surely.

Advertisement

#2220 quidam

quidam
  • Member

  • 188 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 19 December 2012 - 14:20

Koba don't have this 8 millions in cash; only 1,6 and 5,xx in promises sponsoring.

#2221 alain_sl

alain_sl
  • Member

  • 70 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 19 December 2012 - 15:54

I'm surprised that no one like Caterham is interested, especially with the 8 million kitty, or perhaps Kamui isn't. If I were his manager, I'd tell him 'take the money and go to Indycar, we will win the title in 2014. Then hope Honda want their engines and you, Kamui, in F1 in 2015.' If he can't win a competitive seat for 2013, then sitting on the sidelines for a year won't change that for 2014 surely.

i think i read somewhere in an interview given to f1-stinger.com that he is not interested in Caterham.

#2222 Don_Humpador

Don_Humpador
  • Member

  • 2,223 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 19 December 2012 - 16:02

i think i read somewhere in an interview given to f1-stinger.com that he is not interested in Caterham.

Yeah, he said he only wanted to drive for a competitive team.

I think he's right to choose that path. I mean look at Kovalainen and Glock, they went to bad teams because they thought it would be better to be in the sport than out of it. But the problem is, they get stuck there and can never move back out.

I hope Kamui follows in Hulkenberg's footsteps, get a reserve driver role, show a team what you can do on Fridays, then continue to find sponsorship and approach teams in 2014.

#2223 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 774 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 19 December 2012 - 21:18

True. Actually if I were one of board members in Canon, Nikon, Honda etc, I might hesitate pushing Japan image forward now. Japan government and media are unnecessarily, stupidly and naively provoking China and Korea over territorial dispute and doing really bad spin domestically about China and Korea as well as Russia, and instigating anti-China/Korea sentiment among Japanese so much, and to my greatest disappointment many Japanese take the spin seriously.

This anti-China campaign is doing real harm to many Japanese companies operating in China especially and wanting to go global. they are losing huge opportunities in Chinese market. Maybe Japanese government/media and people want Japanese companies to lose huge money/opportunities and want to be poor together. This naive and exclusive mindset, lack of broader perspective and independent thinking is one huge weakness of modern Japanese.


It takes two to tango.

Some of China's threats, like articles in mainstream newspapers demanding that the Chinese government nuke Japanese cities or declare economic war over the islands are way in excess of what is reasonable. Also burning Japanese factories and banning exports of essential metals to Japan sends an aggressive message that puts off foreign investment into China just when their economy is becoming a lot less productive and attractive compared to rivals like Indonesia and Mexico. Not only that but China claims territory from just about every neighbour going and is happy to use force or threaten it to take it. Seen in that light I think Japan's actions have been restrained.

While Japanese brands may be viewed negatively in China (doesn't stop them from buying Japanese products by the billion) they are viewed very positively in a lot of other parts of SE Asia like Vietnam and Thailand, in fact a Thai friend of mine studied Japanese as a child on his own merely so he could read Japanese comics and play Japanese games before his friends and I think part of that is because of Japan's attitude in resisting China (as well as exposure to Japanese stuff from childhood). I'd rather Japanese companies invest in non-aggressive countries like Indonesia or India and sell more products there than rely on China.

There are other rising economies in the region like ASEAN, as these countries become wealthier and are pro-Japanese the scope for Japanese sportsmen like Kamui being attractive for promotions in that area increase. It'll be too late for Kamui but for any other successors thats a market to keep an eye out for, if they can think outside the box enough to look outside Japan for money.

#2224 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 19 December 2012 - 21:34

The power of One good idea is that it obviously turns everything negative into huge potential. That is what Kamui need.

Mind own business, that is what Kimi said and showed,
Young aggressive (and who does mistakes mistakes) Perez actually got a lot of followers, who may profit from his success,
New German cool boy, that is Hulkenburg (and not Nico),
Mad Grosjean got huge potential for France, who is actually a Swiss,
Petrov got the whole Russian money including premier Putin behind him,
Jens is a woke up playboy genius who Frank rated very high early,
Lewis was so convincing that Ron paid all his costs,
Alonso is actually a human being with emotion who does not make mistakes,

and so on...
So who is Kamui? I am convinced his management must thing and promote and apply to the practice...

#2225 TF110

TF110
  • Member

  • 856 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:39

Kobayashi was Grosjeaned at Spa, but Perez was also affected by this crash (it is not written in stone that Kamui would've finish in front of him in that race, he didn't have a good start off the line) + he was Maldonadoed 2 times losing big haul of points.
The biggest difference maker here is that Perez is less experienced and younger than Kobayashi. So while he has matched Kamui without big problems from the beginning (last year he outqualified him more often than not and scored the same amount of points in those races in which they were participating together), he is expected to be a better bet for the future.

And you can't say Grosjean only got a seat over Kobayashi only due to personal backing. 1 year is too little to write off such a quick guy. Lotus would be mad to waste 1 year with him and not give him another after he has shown such a great speed. Many drivers are becoming much more complete packages in their 2nd or 3rd F1 seasons.

I DIDN'T say that. Reread what the comment says. Koby got the raw end of strategies for how many races? He mostly raced himself into his positions. Why try to discredit him? No one said Perez didn't have issues with incidents none his own doing. People like to point to his podium as special reason McLaren took him. Look deeper and see Koby had a podium as well, and possibly another at Spa. Why didn't McLaren take him? The reason becomes quite clear.

#2226 charly0418

charly0418
  • Member

  • 1,215 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:52

I DIDN'T say that. Reread what the comment says. Koby got the raw end of strategies for how many races? He mostly raced himself into his positions. Why try to discredit him? No one said Perez didn't have issues with incidents none his own doing. People like to point to his podium as special reason McLaren took him. Look deeper and see Koby had a podium as well, and possibly another at Spa. Why didn't McLaren take him? The reason becomes quite clear.


Perez beat Kobayashi 6-1 on qualifying the last races. I'm not saying Perez is amazing, just that Kobayashi fell in a black hole at the end of the season

#2227 XOR

XOR
  • Member

  • 83 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:08

Ironically, in the Formula Pirelli, the harder you try, the worse you get. Kobayashi beats Perez 25:0 on the last 6 races.

IMO we just can't use "raw speed" term anymore.

#2228 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:48

At twenty-six, Kamui will need to do some soul searching about his chances returning to F1, or whether to continue racing elsewhere. Contracting of the field cannot be ignored, and after Gro retained his seat, legitimate question is then, what is there left which is worthwhile to consider? Under normal conditions I do not detect any dramatic changes in 2014 either. Notwithstanding that admittedly I am having difficulty calling FI a good choice, at the end it might be the only shot available. I am not clear on their preferences, but F1 official site still has blanks on driver side, and FI does not seek, allegedly, a pay-driver.

Edited by Sakae, 20 December 2012 - 15:44.


#2229 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:12

Well I do think that Kamui is good for all teams, he is popular, perhaps the most popular of the paddock, he is brave in going public and mighty proved that he can accumulate backing in no time. Kamui can outscore his team mate big time as we have seen in the second half of the season. He is from the land of technology.

IMHO, Kamui represent brave challenge and achieving a dream.

His way to come into Formula One with Toyota was just one very fine example. Armchairs including some serious analysts stated that Toyota made huge commercial decision to take someone who is not worthy. Kamui mighty convinced his spedd and racing skill and quickly convinced the professional critics.

Kamui's way of manifesting skill to overtake, especially at Suzuka where truly incredible. While the rest of cutting drivers chose to go after someone in front in order not to lose his position for points, Kamui truly boldly opt to over take and go racing not only that Kamui showed that he has what it takes.

Kamui's way of taking 'lead driver role' at Sauber in his second year was successful, IMHO he gave too much away to Peres from his knowledge and made Peres look to good. I wished back then Kamui to get racing advise from his people that to control the information so that his personal assets for his speed should be distinguioshed from team's interests.

In any case Kamui is no shy to do anything. And he succeed.

Only stupid thing is his fans in Japan. Japan seems to neglect success of Kamui and start to pulling his foot instead of forming group top support him. I know there are lots of next generation, but Kamui so far is best Japan has got. So get behind him and support him. Kamui's failure is Japan's failure in the formula one track.

#2230 billm99uk

billm99uk
  • Member

  • 2,939 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:13

Yeah, he said he only wanted to drive for a competitive team.

I think he's right to choose that path. I mean look at Kovalainen and Glock, they went to bad teams because they thought it would be better to be in the sport than out of it. But the problem is, they get stuck there and can never move back out.

I hope Kamui follows in Hulkenberg's footsteps, get a reserve driver role, show a team what you can do on Fridays, then continue to find sponsorship and approach teams in 2014.


I wonder what decent third driver options are left now though? Everyone seems to have a "bright young thing" standing by these days (see Frijns at Sauber). But then the "Hang around a couple of years on the sidelines, then give up and get a sportscar drive" option like di Grassi isn't particularly attractive either. I'd agree that that the likes of Glock don't seem to have done anything for their career though, unfortunately.

#2231 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 3,055 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:24

It takes two to tango.

Some of China's threats, like articles in mainstream newspapers demanding that the Chinese government nuke Japanese cities or declare economic war over the islands are way in excess of what is reasonable. Also burning Japanese factories and banning exports of essential metals to Japan sends an aggressive message that puts off foreign investment into China just when their economy is becoming a lot less productive and attractive compared to rivals like Indonesia and Mexico. Not only that but China claims territory from just about every neighbour going and is happy to use force or threaten it to take it. Seen in that light I think Japan's actions have been restrained.


true, but situation in China should also be considered. It's big country, difficult to govern, and anti-Japan is one of tools to divert people's dissatifaction towards the chinese communist party and about inequality, and glue its people together. Poverty, poor working condition and inequality, rather than anti-Japan sentiment, is the true driving force behind the riot.
Japan self-claims as well as are regarded as more mature, civilized country, so they couldve done alot better. But it was Japan who first broke the mutual agreement with China made in 1972 to not to touch on and make disputed Senkaku islands as issue without mutual consent but still keep letting Japan control the islands, by naively declaring possesion of Senkaku.
China is party-ruled country, so saving face is crucial. Giving up or being soft to outside means showing weakness to inside, so they have no other choice but to take stiff and strong attitude (Russia has similar circumstance too). Japan could be aware of their internal situation, be shrewd and take advantage of their situation but didnt choose to do so. (being "shrewd" isnt bad thing at all). All because being closer to China/Russia and taking more independent stance and more centric role in Asia means going away from the US and getting out of US umbrella, which is jp beaurocrats's inconvenience.

While Japanese brands may be viewed negatively in China (doesn't stop them from buying Japanese products by the billion) they are viewed very positively in a lot of other parts of SE Asia like Vietnam and Thailand, in fact a Thai friend of mine studied Japanese as a child on his own merely so he could read Japanese comics and play Japanese games before his friends and I think part of that is because of Japan's attitude in resisting China (as well as exposure to Japanese stuff from childhood). I'd rather Japanese companies invest in non-aggressive countries like Indonesia or India and sell more products there than rely on China.

There are other rising economies in the region like ASEAN, as these countries become wealthier and are pro-Japanese the scope for Japanese sportsmen like Kamui being attractive for promotions in that area increase. It'll be too late for Kamui but for any other successors thats a market to keep an eye out for, if they can think outside the box enough to look outside Japan for money.

yeah I reckon one of Japan's strength is that, after WWII, Japan has been immune from military and mostly about consumer products (car, camera, anime etc), despite what they've done during 50 years or so up until 1945. Its softness, honesty and shyness (or naivety) has been and still is Japan's great advantage in many parts of the world, but more people are thinking going hardline is the way to go. I'm wary of current right-leaning trend in my country, pursuing militarism would lose all the trust Japan has built. Japan should be free of US base and be truly independent eventually, but independence and hard-line/militarism are completely different things, which right wingers as well as many of general public dont seem to recognize (here, naivety is working negatively).
(Japan has good, realistic potential to be a good mediator in the Asian region and achieve peace and presence without holding much military power. Such role fits Japan(ese) character and nature well. )



#2232 Wander

Wander
  • Member

  • 2,279 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 20 December 2012 - 14:31

Why not give the donators their money back, go to Japan and walk into a Nippon/SuperGT drive and actually earn a living from it?

Beats going to work in yer Dad's sushi restaurant......


What is the point of driving in a national series where he's likely to easily dominate.

Edited by Wander, 20 December 2012 - 14:31.


#2233 the9th

the9th
  • Member

  • 1,544 posts
  • Joined: July 06

Posted 20 December 2012 - 14:41

What is the point of driving in a national series where he's likely to easily dominate.

The way One Pablo has dominated Nascar and Hakkinen dominated the bundesliga or in a more emphatic way?

#2234 Wander

Wander
  • Member

  • 2,279 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 20 December 2012 - 15:22

Maybe you can compare DTM to SuperGT, but Nippon I would expect to be relatively easy to an ex-f1 driver and there is no comparison to Nascar, that's for sure. In fact, former F1 driver Kazuki Nakajima won the Nippon championship this year. I'm just saying that I'd be surprised if Nakajima was the better open-wheel driver of the two Japanese.

Edited by Wander, 20 December 2012 - 15:23.


#2235 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 3,055 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 20 December 2012 - 15:46

Only stupid thing is his fans in Japan. Japan seems to neglect success of Kamui and start to pulling his foot instead of forming group top support him. I know there are lots of next generation, but Kamui so far is best Japan has got. So get behind him and support him. Kamui's failure is Japan's failure in the formula one track.

hey that's not correct, Japanese fans really got together behind him. To be honest, at the beginning I was quite pessimistic about Kamui-support and didnt expect it to generate more than few tens of millions yen, at best seriously. 180mil yen is really a big surprise for me.

I wouldnt blame his management either, as from what I read and hear they've been working really so hard. But sometimes nothing works, there are too many things out of their control.


#2236 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 20 December 2012 - 15:50

In hindsight, perhaps long-term strategy plans and development of fall-back postion for Kamu was ill timed, or plainly and simply late.

#2237 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 3,055 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 20 December 2012 - 16:07

Maybe you can compare DTM to SuperGT, but Nippon I would expect to be relatively easy to an ex-f1 driver and there is no comparison to Nascar, that's for sure. In fact, former F1 driver Kazuki Nakajima won the Nippon championship this year. I'm just saying that I'd be surprised if Nakajima was the better open-wheel driver of the two Japanese.

F-Nippon is no way easy, it's highly technical and fantastic series with high level of precision required. It may have lost the glitter it used to have in 90s, but still is competitive series. European LMP1 drivers such as Lotterer, Treluyer and Duval prove it. Kazuki winning this years championship shows nothing but that he's a quality driver and massively underrated.


#2238 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,802 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 20 December 2012 - 16:19

What is the point of driving in a national series where he's likely to easily dominate.


He might enjoy it? It's fun driving fast cars and winning. It's akin to asking "what's the point of humans being alive if we're on top of the food chain ?!"

I wonder what it says that he can't land a seat even after raising this amount of money. It looks like he got too comfortable at Sauber; he and his management should have started all this way earlier.

#2239 KinoNoNo

KinoNoNo
  • Member

  • 172 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 20 December 2012 - 16:28

Suppose after F1 other cars feel a little tame.

Probably why Schmy went bike racing instead.

Advertisement

#2240 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 3,055 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 20 December 2012 - 16:34

It looks like he got too comfortable at Sauber; he and his management should have started all this way earlier.

quite opposite. he made no secret that he aims better seat, and also was fully aware that he's no backing so had to impress with result to stay in F1. and as I said above he and his management have been working on it so hard since 2010. This donation thing can never be sth to be done early, always meant to be the last resort effort.


#2241 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 20 December 2012 - 20:07

hey that's not correct, Japanese fans really got together behind him. To be honest, at the beginning I was quite pessimistic about Kamui-support and didnt expect it to generate more than few tens of millions yen, at best seriously. 180mil yen is really a big surprise for me.

I wouldnt blame his management either, as from what I read and hear they've been working really so hard. But sometimes nothing works, there are too many things out of their control.


OK, sorry then another look.

Strange that Japanese fans and company did not back Kamui much earlier. Everyone knows, who knows how Formula One is, that support is vital. SO how come that it came too late?

Besides, Kamui has got a lot to appeal to American public I am convinced of. Just take Ichiro, he is the star. So who is laying the opportunity?

#2242 Wander

Wander
  • Member

  • 2,279 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:27

Even Jody Scheckter expressed his opinion in the latest Motorsport Magazine podcast that Kobayashi should have got himself a seat, complimenting his speed and bravery.

http://www.motorspor...jody-scheckter/ 49-52 minutes

#2243 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 774 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:42

Strange that Japanese fans and company did not back Kamui much earlier. Everyone knows, who knows how Formula One is, that support is vital. SO how come that it came too late?


I don't see how you can criticise Japanese fans really.

I don't know which country you're from but do you routinely contribute money to help fund your compatriot F1 drivers' careers without being asked? I've followed F1 for a while now and I've never met a fan who does so. Buying merchandise yes, supporting on forums yes but giving money? I don't think so.

Invest in Wilson was an exception but the key word there was 'invest', it was packaged as a financial investment with a good return rather than an appeal to fans for money.

As for companies, I don't see why they should support any individual in any activity unless it fits in with corporate agenda, ie advertising. Companies are not charities that exist to fund compatriot sportsmens' careers. If Kamui did not ask for sponsorship before (and he didn't) I do not think you can criticise companies for not coming forward to do so.

#2244 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 21 December 2012 - 13:51

I don't see how you can criticise Japanese fans really.

I don't know which country you're from but do you routinely contribute money to help fund your compatriot F1 drivers' careers without being asked? I've followed F1 for a while now and I've never met a fan who does so. Buying merchandise yes, supporting on forums yes but giving money? I don't think so.

Invest in Wilson was an exception but the key word there was 'invest', it was packaged as a financial investment with a good return rather than an appeal to fans for money.

As for companies, I don't see why they should support any individual in any activity unless it fits in with corporate agenda, ie advertising. Companies are not charities that exist to fund compatriot sportsmens' careers. If Kamui did not ask for sponsorship before (and he didn't) I do not think you can criticise companies for not coming forward to do so.


Fair enough.

I can agree that there are little cases when fans contribuited for a formula one drivers carrier, by donating own money to his management.

I do agree also that companies uses driver for ads.

OK, then how come that Japanese company (-ies) did no see the benefit of associating tghemselves withKoba's magnificent performance on formula one track?

It is not surprising tho. Japan often behave very cold to an individual who perform excellently internationally. Japanese folk has own series and prefer to be associated with their local hero's. At least this is the way I view their behavior.

Just hoping to see Koba on next year's grid or the year after, that is all there is for me. :cool:

#2245 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 21 December 2012 - 17:33

...As for companies, I don't see why they should support any individual in any activity unless it fits in with corporate agenda, ie advertising. Companies are not charities that exist to fund compatriot sportsmens' careers. If Kamui did not ask for sponsorship before (and he didn't) I do not think you can criticise companies for not coming forward to do so.


quite opposite. he made no secret that he aims better seat, and also was fully aware that he's no backing so had to impress with result to stay in F1. and as I said above he and his management have been working on it so hard since 2010. This donation thing can never be sth to be done early, always meant to be the last resort effort.


I am not trying to pit Talisman against muramasa, but story of Kamu puzzles me, because I have feeling that I do not understand correctly Japanese thinking on this. I thought, maybe erroneously, that Kamu either was lacking on proper management of his business interest, or he himself slept on the switch for too long. Until now I have always considered Japanese being patriotic to a fault, however here national interest obviously divorces from private one (clan allegiance).

Edited by Sakae, 21 December 2012 - 17:34.


#2246 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,282 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 21 December 2012 - 22:08

Sadly, as I am a fan, I have to say that KK has been very unrealistic about the need to bring sponsorship in modern F1 .... Even the great FA brings sponsorship ... LH brings exposure, SV - well, he is the luckiest driver I have seen for a long time..... Up and down the grid most drivers today are bringing something more than just skill.

KK realised what he had to do too late .... I blame his management.

#2247 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 21 December 2012 - 23:51

I am not trying to pit Talisman against muramasa, but story of Kamu puzzles me, because I have feeling that I do not understand correctly Japanese thinking on this. I thought, maybe erroneously, that Kamu either was lacking on proper management of his business interest, or he himself slept on the switch for too long. Until now I have always considered Japanese being patriotic to a fault, however here national interest obviously divorces from private one (clan allegiance).



Bla Bla Bloa....

#2248 g1n

g1n
  • Member

  • 874 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 22 December 2012 - 00:23

Farewell sweet prince...
Posted Image

#2249 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,464 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:34

It's not so bad.

I assume Kamui will appear in the TS030 hybrid , and hopefully win Le Mans. :up: