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#3401 F.M.

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 09:25

How do you know the advantages are very, very slight?

It depends a lot per engine manufacturer. The Renault is rumoured to suffer the least from degradation, while you hear other drivers say that they can easily feel the power difference between a fresh and an older unit (Hulkenberg on Cosworth last weekend is one I remember for example).

Edited by F.M., 15 September 2010 - 09:25.


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#3402 goingthedistance

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 09:27

How do you know the advantages are very, very slight?


Because the teams have essentially said that. It can be few percent in terms of output performance, I believe. If you look back at Seb Vettel's last 4 races in 2009 they were all run on seriously used power units (he cracked open his 8th in Monza) - yet his speed was anything but compromised - winning both Suzuka and Abu Dhabi and looking very racey in both Singapore and Interlagos, and that was before Renault's reliability upgrades.

#3403 Melbourne Park

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:53

Because the teams have essentially said that. It can be few percent in terms of output performance, I believe. If you look back at Seb Vettel's last 4 races in 2009 they were all run on seriously used power units (he cracked open his 8th in Monza) - yet his speed was anything but compromised - winning both Suzuka and Abu Dhabi and looking very racey in both Singapore and Interlagos, and that was before Renault's reliability upgrades.


So its supposition.

While typical F1 engines are competitive the third time they are used, that does not mean that the manufacturer cannot produce a single race, higher performance engine, within the homologation rules. And likewise, why Renault may very well be providing MW with two, two race engines for the rest of the season. We simply do not know what the engine teams are doing. Such a two race engine spec would not surprise, because Renault's own cars have just gone to their 6th engines. When Renault did that change, they had three brand new engines, with 6 races left to go. The math is simple. Renault would use their single race 6th engines for the Singapore (the next GP). Hence after Singapore, both Renaults would have four races to go, and two brand new engines. If Webber runs his 6th engine for its third time at Singapore, he would be in exactly the same situation as the Renault team. IMO Renault would take advantage of having a two race engine spec. for the final four races.

Who knows what McLaren might do with Hamilton's engines? He would not have sustained any damage to his engine from Monza, and that 7th engine did not even do a race lap, just qualifying and morning practice. Its close to new also.

I do not believe that if the formula returned to single race engines within today's homologation rules, that such engines would have the same performance as a third race engine from this year. We already know too, that the engines do have limited maximum engine rev capabilities, which is the same thing as horsepower. Obviously if you can run full revs in a 70% full load road like Monza for 15% of the time, then if the engine was used just for Monza, then perhaps that could be extended to 45% of the time. Which would result in more horsepower for that engine, ignoring the other wear factors that would lower horsepower.

Last year was pretty strange for engine use, but the rules have changed a bit since then. Namely rule 28.4(a) has had an extra line added to it, which says:

If two such additional engines are used during a single Event the driver concerned will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event and at the following Event.

This rule should not effect the main teams though, except for Ferrari.

For instance, Webber used his 6th engine for the first time in practice at Spa, but changed to his 7th engine for the race. Renault reported the engine was OK, but Webber never raced with it again. Webber is therefor better off for this season than last season with engine availability. I think that Singapore is the slowest race of the year, so its possible for Webber to used his 6th engine for its third use, and then just use his remain two engines twice each.

21 drivers put in new engines for Monza. Of those, most put in their 7th engine. Those that did not put in their seventh engines, were Kubica and Petrov (Renault) who put in their 6th engines; and Massa and Alonso, who put in their seventh engines. Those that did not change their engines, were Webber, Rubens and deLa Rossa. Webber (Renault) and Rubens (Cosworth) used their 6th engines for their second times, and Pedro used his 9th Ferrari engine for its second time. Liuzzi actually did not use his 7th engine in qualifying or the race, as it malfunctioned somehow, on both Saturday morning when it failed after a couple of laps, and it ran just on lap during Q1 (hard to believe isn't it?). Force India wrote a letter to the Stewards, we can presume about the Mercedes engine being faulty somehow, and he was allowed to us an old engine.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 16 September 2010 - 04:02.


#3404 goingthedistance

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 07:59

So its supposition.

While typical F1 engines are competitive the third time they are used, that does not mean that the manufacturer cannot produce a single race, higher performance engine, within the homologation rules. And likewise, why Renault may very well be providing MW with two, two race engines for the rest of the season. We simply do not know what the engine teams are doing. Such a two race engine spec would not surprise, because Renault's own cars have just gone to their 6th engines. When Renault did that change, they had three brand new engines, with 6 races left to go. The math is simple. Renault would use their single race 6th engines for the Singapore (the next GP). Hence after Singapore, both Renaults would have four races to go, and two brand new engines. If Webber runs his 6th engine for its third time at Singapore, he would be in exactly the same situation as the Renault team. IMO Renault would take advantage of having a two race engine spec. for the final four races.

Who knows what McLaren might do with Hamilton's engines? He would not have sustained any damage to his engine from Monza, and that 7th engine did not even do a race lap, just qualifying and morning practice. Its close to new also.

I do not believe that if the formula returned to single race engines within today's homologation rules, that such engines would have the same performance as a third race engine from this year. We already know too, that the engines do have limited maximum engine rev capabilities, which is the same thing as horsepower. Obviously if you can run full revs in a 70% full load road like Monza for 15% of the time, then if the engine was used just for Monza, then perhaps that could be extended to 45% of the time. Which would result in more horsepower for that engine, ignoring the other wear factors that would lower horsepower.

Last year was pretty strange for engine use, but the rules have changed a bit since then. Namely rule 28.4(a) has had an extra line added to it, which says: This rule should not effect the main teams though, except for Ferrari.

For instance, Webber used his 6th engine for the first time in practice at Spa, but changed to his 7th engine for the race. Renault reported the engine was OK, but Webber never raced with it again. Webber is therefor better off for this season than last season with engine availability. I think that Singapore is the slowest race of the year, so its possible for Webber to used his 6th engine for its third use, and then just use his remain two engines twice each.

21 drivers put in new engines for Monza. Of those, most put in their 7th engine. Those that did not put in their seventh engines, were Kubica and Petrov (Renault) who put in their 6th engines; and Massa and Alonso, who put in their seventh engines. Those that did not change their engines, were Webber, Rubens and deLa Rossa. Webber (Renault) and Rubens (Cosworth) used their 6th engines for their second times, and Pedro used his 9th Ferrari engine for its second time. Liuzzi actually did not use his 7th engine in qualifying or the race, as it malfunctioned somehow, on both Saturday morning when it failed after a couple of laps, and it ran just on lap during Q1 (hard to believe isn't it?). Force India wrote a letter to the Stewards, we can presume about the Mercedes engine being faulty somehow, and he was allowed to us an old engine.


I have never read anything that suggests that under the current regulations teams produce different spec engines (two-race spec engines as you are alluding to). Do you have a source for this?

I will be very surprised to see Webber run that 6th engine in Singapore. Monza and Spa are notoriously high load, he did well to make it through those two alone on one engine. I'd put a lot of money on him taking his 7th in Singapore.

#3405 Clatter

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 08:07

that does not mean that the manufacturer cannot produce a single race, higher performance engine, within the homologation rules.


How exactly would they be able to do that?

#3406 DILLIGAF

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:33

I have never read anything that suggests that under the current regulations teams produce different spec engines (two-race spec engines as you are alluding to). Do you have a source for this?

I will be very surprised to see Webber run that 6th engine in Singapore. Monza and Spa are notoriously high load, he did well to make it through those two alone on one engine. I'd put a lot of money on him taking his 7th in Singapore.


Agree with the bolded bit. 7th at Singapore & Suzuka, 8th at Korea & Brazil, then run the best of what's been used at Abu Dhabi.

#3407 Melbourne Park

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 06:30

How exactly would they be able to do that?


The most basic way, is to spend lots of time establishing maximum rev limits, for just the one race. The teams have limited maximum revs. That is why a Spa and Monza engine, as alluded to, is more worn than a two race engine from most other tracks. The issue is putting in the R&D to work out how much fuel they can run and how much revs, for such a single race power plant, and also work out the gearing to optimise it.

About the parts within the engine, I don't know for instance, how they measure the components. An example would be something simple, like the piston rings. It might be straightforward to put in a lower friction ring, that conformed to the same measurement criteria. Same too with the bearings. All those parts have to pass measurement criteria. But they don't have to be made last year, and sourced from the same last year production batch.

Be nice for the engine guys in the tech thread to discuss what latitudes are allowed though. However one should recall, that Ferrari had a number of engine issues this year, that were resolved without having to go to the FIA and ask for a design change .... or perhaps they did, but it was not granted!!! Renault's changes last year, were to bring the engine up to the rough level of Ferrari and Mercedes. But Renault had asked for more, and were not granted all the requests they made. Unfortunately I do not know what changes those would have been.



#3408 Melbourne Park

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 06:35

Agree with the bolded bit. 7th at Singapore & Suzuka, 8th at Korea & Brazil, then run the best of what's been used at Abu Dhabi.


We'll know soon. However Webber has run 3 engines before, and Singapore is not an engine circuit. Although there is a new higher speed bend, but I am not sure if benefits more power. I guess it must a bit. But if he does run the engine for the third time, then he has two, two race engines to go. And those would have a bit more power therefor. Its a slightly higher risk strategy, but power is basic stuff. If Webber left Singapore still in the lead of the championship, and increased his lead over Hamilton, with two engines to go - its two aces in his pocket IMO. It might even be possible, to run three again, and then have a final engine for the championship race. Only Renault would know if that's a good plan. Interestingly, they have lots of engines left, and they have been forecasting being highly competitive. Its at the end of the season, that engine reliability can become a benefit. And it would only be a benefit against teams not incurring 9th engine penalties, if they pulled out of the crate not only a fresh powerplant, but one that could produce more power for just that last race. Who knows??

Edited by Melbourne Park, 24 September 2010 - 06:40.


#3409 DILLIGAF

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 06:53

We'll know soon. However Webber has run 3 engines before, and Singapore is not an engine circuit. Although there is a new higher speed bend, but I am not sure if benefits more power. I guess it must a bit. But if he does run the engine for the third time, then he has two, two race engines to go. And those would have a bit more power therefor. Its a slightly higher risk strategy, but power is basic stuff. If Webber left Singapore still in the lead of the championship, and increased his lead over Hamilton, with two engines to go - its two aces in his pocket IMO. It might even be possible, to run three again, and then have a final engine for the championship race. Only Renault would know if that's a good plan. Interestingly, they have lots of engines left, and they have been forecasting being highly competitive. Its at the end of the season, that engine reliability can become a benefit. And it would only be a benefit against teams not incurring 9th engine penalties, if they pulled out of the crate not only a fresh powerplant, but one that could produce more power for just that last race. Who knows??


There may well be a psychological advantage in having fresh engines up his sleeve also. Some of his competitors may be a little hesitant about going flat out with engines doing their 3rd or possibly 4th race when we get to the last couple of gp's.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 24 September 2010 - 06:53.


#3410 Kingantti

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 08:42

Does Hamilton not have 2 fresh engines as well? + the monza unit did what..quarter of a lap?

#3411 apoka

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 16:33

This probably came up in the race thread already, but it's better to discuss it here: Why did Vettel pit in the same lap as Alonso? I think he had two options: pit earlier (but maybe this was not possible because he wouldn't be in clean air) or stay out for another lap. He got very close to Alonso, so if he stays out for another lap and pushes really hard, there is at least a small chance to get by Alonso, in particular because the F10 always needs some time to warm up the hard tyre. Pitting in the same lap seems to have almost zero chance to overtake Alonso (it's unlikely that the pit crew is that much faster), so does anyone have a clue why RB did this?

#3412 Slh

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 16:37

This probably came up in the race thread already, but it's better to discuss it here: Why did Vettel pit in the same lap as Alonso? I think he had two options: pit earlier (but maybe this was not possible because he wouldn't be in clean air) or stay out for another lap. He got very close to Alonso, so if he stays out for another lap and pushes really hard, there is at least a small chance to get by Alonso, in particular because the F10 always needs some time to warm up the hard tyre. Pitting in the same lap seems to have almost zero chance to overtake Alonso (it's unlikely that the pit crew is that much faster), so does anyone have a clue why RB did this?

vettel said when he pit his tyres were gone and he couldn't be faster than alonso in that moment of the race.

#3413 sosidge

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 16:39

This probably came up in the race thread already, but it's better to discuss it here: Why did Vettel pit in the same lap as Alonso? I think he had two options: pit earlier (but maybe this was not possible because he wouldn't be in clean air) or stay out for another lap. He got very close to Alonso, so if he stays out for another lap and pushes really hard, there is at least a small chance to get by Alonso, in particular because the F10 always needs some time to warm up the hard tyre. Pitting in the same lap seems to have almost zero chance to overtake Alonso (it's unlikely that the pit crew is that much faster), so does anyone have a clue why RB did this?


The BBC commentary team were trying to work out who was shadowing who... they even had some suggestions from Ferrari that they were all shadowing McLaren - which is clearly a fib because McLaren had no chance of catching either car.

Best explanation is that both teams made late calls to pit on the same lap. Vettel was very close to Alonso at that point and by the time he saw Alonso pull in he was already committed. Personally speaking, in that split-second, I would have liked to see Vettel decide to stay out, but it is a brave driver that over-rules the pit wall.

I was surprised they took a risk on Webber's strategy. It paid off, in part due to a couple of good passes, but when you are leading the WDC, surely a safe 5th is a better bet than a gamble on somewhere between 3rd and 8th?

#3414 Seanspeed

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 16:43

This probably came up in the race thread already, but it's better to discuss it here: Why did Vettel pit in the same lap as Alonso? I think he had two options: pit earlier (but maybe this was not possible because he wouldn't be in clean air) or stay out for another lap. He got very close to Alonso, so if he stays out for another lap and pushes really hard, there is at least a small chance to get by Alonso, in particular because the F10 always needs some time to warm up the hard tyre. Pitting in the same lap seems to have almost zero chance to overtake Alonso (it's unlikely that the pit crew is that much faster), so does anyone have a clue why RB did this?

I think they did try and pit Vettel a lap earlier, but Ferrari responded to Red Bull's mechanics coming out.

#3415 Melbourne Park

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:08

Does Hamilton not have 2 fresh engines as well? + the monza unit did what..quarter of a lap?


Webber and Hamilton are on the same engine count, but Hamilton's engine has really had no distance. So Hamilton has an engine advantage, plus the MB is the best engine out there.

Alonso is on his last engine and I expect him to take a penalty and get a 9th one, as his team mate had to.

I believe the rule says that if you take a new engine after qualifying starts, then you can only use that engine in the last race ... so a team cannot change an engine after a bad qualifying, and "sneak it through".

So if Alonso had a bad qualifying in Suzuka, with his 8th engine, and they put in his 9th, then he'd take a 10 place penalty. And then the next race, he'd have to go back to an old engine, or what is likely, take a new one and another penalty. That is not impossible because the 9th engine could still be used in the last race. With four races to go, its no impossible that Ferrari - if the car is not looking good on Saturday in Suzuka - that they put a new engine in the car.

No articles written about engines that I've read anyway. Weird IMO. Its a huge issue that the press seems to want to ignore.



#3416 Clatter

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:29

Webber and Hamilton are on the same engine count, but Hamilton's engine has really had no distance. So Hamilton has an engine advantage, plus the MB is the best engine out there.

Alonso is on his last engine and I expect him to take a penalty and get a 9th one, as his team mate had to.

I believe the rule says that if you take a new engine after qualifying starts, then you can only use that engine in the last race ... so a team cannot change an engine after a bad qualifying, and "sneak it through".

So if Alonso had a bad qualifying in Suzuka, with his 8th engine, and they put in his 9th, then he'd take a 10 place penalty. And then the next race, he'd have to go back to an old engine, or what is likely, take a new one and another penalty. That is not impossible because the 9th engine could still be used in the last race. With four races to go, its no impossible that Ferrari - if the car is not looking good on Saturday in Suzuka - that they put a new engine in the car.

No articles written about engines that I've read anyway. Weird IMO. Its a huge issue that the press seems to want to ignore.


You have this bit wrong. It's the engine that was replaced that cannot be used until the last race. The 9th engine can be used as normal for the next races.

Massa didn't have to take a 9th engine, it was just expedient to do so considering his qualifying position.


#3417 DILLIGAF

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:43

You have this bit wrong. It's the engine that was replaced that cannot be used until the last race. The 9th engine can be used as normal for the next races.


:up: Spot on Clatter.

#3418 flyer121

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:56

This probably came up in the race thread already, but it's better to discuss it here: Why did Vettel pit in the same lap as Alonso? I think he had two options: pit earlier (but maybe this was not possible because he wouldn't be in clean air) or stay out for another lap. He got very close to Alonso, so if he stays out for another lap and pushes really hard, there is at least a small chance to get by Alonso, in particular because the F10 always needs some time to warm up the hard tyre. Pitting in the same lap seems to have almost zero chance to overtake Alonso (it's unlikely that the pit crew is that much faster), so does anyone have a clue why RB did this?


Actually he and Alonso were so far in the front that they didnt lose track postion coz of pitting.

If Vettel did come in early then he would have come out a few corners ahead of the rest of the pack and far behind Alonso to be in clean air.

In fact - by not pitting early , he spent the entire race in Alonso 's dirty air.

But to be fair - I guess that RBR did try to do just that but Ferrari saw their boys coming out of the garage and decided to call in Alonso at short notice.

Edited by flyer121, 01 October 2010 - 08:57.


#3419 One

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 10:32

Red Bull Porsche?

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#3420 Dunder

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 10:32

The BBC commentary team were trying to work out who was shadowing who... they even had some suggestions from Ferrari that they were all shadowing McLaren - which is clearly a fib because McLaren had no chance of catching either car.

Best explanation is that both teams made late calls to pit on the same lap. Vettel was very close to Alonso at that point and by the time he saw Alonso pull in he was already committed. Personally speaking, in that split-second, I would have liked to see Vettel decide to stay out, but it is a brave driver that over-rules the pit wall.

I was surprised they took a risk on Webber's strategy. It paid off, in part due to a couple of good passes, but when you are leading the WDC, surely a safe 5th is a better bet than a gamble on somewhere between 3rd and 8th?


I was surprised too but having looked at it again after the race it could have worked out to have been a brilliant move.
If there had been another safety car before lap 20, he would have been in the lead effectively.

As you say though getting past Schumacher, in particular, was crucial for him.


#3421 One

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 10:48

That is a postfrom 26 Sept.


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87103



Red Bull denied Merc. now what? ed Bull cars have tight relationships with VW cars, in effect, today's news might be seen as a link to it.

Red Bull Porsche to happen, and Red Bull to pay bills for it?

#3422 DILLIGAF

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 11:05

That is a postfrom 26 Sept.


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87103



Red Bull denied Merc. now what? ed Bull cars have tight relationships with VW cars, in effect, today's news might be seen as a link to it.

Red Bull Porsche to happen, and Red Bull to pay bills for it?


Red Bull Porche - I like the sound of that. Here's hoping.

#3423 sosidge

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 11:07

That is a postfrom 26 Sept.


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87103



Red Bull denied Merc. now what? ed Bull cars have tight relationships with VW cars, in effect, today's news might be seen as a link to it.

Red Bull Porsche to happen, and Red Bull to pay bills for it?


I'm sure Porsche would like it to happen that way, especially if Vettel is still at the wheel. Not sure that Red Bull would want to take a risk on a brand new engine package, especially if they remain front runners through 2011/2012.

#3424 One

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 12:22

I'm sure Porsche would like it to happen that way, especially if Vettel is still at the wheel. Not sure that Red Bull would want to take a risk on a brand new engine package, especially if they remain front runners through 2011/2012.

:up:

still RB will pay much for them to come in, I assume, as RB has this weak point. Keen to know what Williams will do. They diliked the way BMW stepped on their tow, ...

#3425 orndorf

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 12:40

If Porsche come in to F1 it wont be till 2013 when everyone will have new engines and it will be an equal playing field.

Webber probably wont be around by then so whether they team up with RedBull or not doesnt interest me much.

#3426 FPV GTHO

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 14:13

Assuming Porsche are looking at getting involved with Red Bull in the first place. Theres also Williams who have had some pretty strong links made between themselves and VW lately, then also Force India who could pull it off.

#3427 race addicted

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 16:12

Surely Porsche if they enter, will hook up with Williams, as you say FPV GTHO, they're already co-operating.

#3428 One

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 10:06

Strange thing is happeningat Lotus, no news, and very strange confrontation betwen the group Lotus. It might al abot their power and fame striggle, but if it is something to do with their engine,... Like Porsche to pick Lotus just start up their business in low key, before the Sh1t hits fan.

In anyways, Webber has got two fresh engines to run for FP1, FP2 and for FP3, meaning that it will count for that magic, "Third time Run the Best Output (TRBO)" theory?

Getting more curous abot the next move from Red Bull. No news good news? My guts says that The team will adopt Lasse Fair...?

#3429 Fanatic123Boy

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 10:25

hi guys ... redbull racing official song released ... plz check and tell how it is

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

#3430 Mastah

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 11:17

Red Bull with Renault engines for next 2 years:

The team has announced it has agreed a two-year extension to its current partnership with French engine manufacturer Renault.

In recognition of the renewed partnership, Red Bull Racing will feature greater Renault visibility starting from this weekend’s Brazilian Grand Prix. The Renault logo will appear on the noses of both RB6s and its name will be on the visors of both Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber’s race helmets.

Christian Horner, Red Bull Racing Team Principal, said: “We’re pleased to announce this extension. We have always enjoyed a very straightforward relationship with Renault and they have supported us extremely fairly during the past four seasons, contributing to our 13 grand prix victories so far. The relationship continues to evolve and we look forward to working with them during our 2011 Formula One World Championship campaign.”

http://www.redbullra...mp;refmodpos=A1



#3431 H2H

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:06

WCC

:clap: Thanks guys :clap:


H2H

Edited by H2H, 08 November 2010 - 10:06.