47 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

Leo is an old favourite, of course, and I'm sure someone here would like to help him out...

Leo is looking for pictures of him racing in Pacers and Chargers. Does anyone here have any they took back in the 1969-1972 period?

[Wirra]

Ray, could you just confirm these two are of Leo (and Doug Chivas). In Leo's case I'm going on the Castrol stickers.

Edited by Wirra, 11 November 2009 - 22:11.

[Ray Bell]

Do you have pics of Leo at that Oran Park meeting?

No, that's not Chivas in Shell colours there, it's Jim McKeown, and if I've got things right that's the Toby Lee final meeting of 1971 and this is when Chivo came up to pass McKeown early in the race.

The Warwick Farm pic is a beauty and is probably the AGP meeting of 1971. It could be the October meeting, when he had that number, but the pic in RCN shows GTX stickers over the headlights.

Okay... we're off to a good start. What else is there?

[Ray Bell]

Wirra, could you please e.mail me so we might make some arrangements?

[eldougo]

The MAN Leo Geoghegan....."Hey Charger"



Wrong way on the short track AmarooPark 1972







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Edited by eldougo, 19 January 2011 - 08:55.

[smeetsie]

I have at home a little photo of a shortened wheelbase Valiant ute on the transporter at Sandown...suspect it to be the Charger test bed.

Anyone interested?

Smeetsie
Adelaide SA

[Ray Bell]

Yes, of course...

We're interested in a lot of stuff here. And there were two of those utes, a VF and a VG.

[eldougo]

What color where the RAY.

[Lee Nicolle]

Yes, of course...

We're interested in a lot of stuff here. And there were two of those utes, a VF and a VG.

The 2 utes are quite famous, 1 was white, and generally unwashed. I think both were. Until recently I thought there was only one but I saw them around quite a lot very early 70s. Both V8 and 6. The wheels were pulled well forward in the wheel arches and they normally had 7x14 ROH mags. Reputedly Geoghan did some testing at the then closed Mallala in both 6 and 340 guise.
I have friends who worked in the Development area at the time who told me what was going on.

[Ray Bell]

From what I've been able to establish, Leo never drove the VF when it had the 340 fitted...

Leo was in England at the time, Pete tried it and immediately told them it was too heavy and didn't handle well enough, so they took it out and it resumed life with the 6-pack Hemi 6.

With the wheel arches, do you mean the rear ones? In fact, there was 10" cut out of the centre of the utes so the wheels sat in their regular position with relation to the skin of the wheel arches. They were tested endlessly at Mallala, where Harry Firth had a spy to report in on times the Pacers were doing.

Then one day he said, "I don't know if you're interested in this, Harry, but they have a ute running around going four seconds a lap faster than the Pacers." It was reported by Mike Kable in his Friday column in the Sydney Daily Mirror.

As for the ROH wheels, they were slightly different to the aftermarket wheels. Chrysler specced them to have steel inserts for tapered nuts and to have the valve fitment further in so it was less prone to getting caught in a melee and deflating the tyre.

Both of these, in very sad shape apparently, are owned by a Melbourne enthusiast who is having the bodywork restored at Elmore.

[eldougo]

This add would get some people back up following Hardie products an court cases that have taken place in the years out here in OZ.






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Edited by eldougo, 20 January 2011 - 08:32.

[Lee Nicolle]

From what I've been able to establish, Leo never drove the VF when it had the 340 fitted...

Leo was in England at the time, Pete tried it and immediately told them it was too heavy and didn't handle well enough, so they took it out and it resumed life with the 6-pack Hemi 6.

With the wheel arches, do you mean the rear ones? In fact, there was 10" cut out of the centre of the utes so the wheels sat in their regular position with relation to the skin of the wheel arches. They were tested endlessly at Mallala, where Harry Firth had a spy to report in on times the Pacers were doing.

Then one day he said, "I don't know if you're interested in this, Harry, but they have a ute running around going four seconds a lap faster than the Pacers." It was reported by Mike Kable in his Friday column in the Sydney Daily Mirror.

As for the ROH wheels, they were slightly different to the aftermarket wheels. Chrysler specced them to have steel inserts for tapered nuts and to have the valve fitment further in so it was less prone to getting caught in a melee and deflating the tyre.

Both of these, in very sad shape apparently, are owned by a Melbourne enthusiast who is having the bodywork restored at Elmore.

No the ones that I saw, the wheels were right forward in the arches. That is why they were recognisable. I guess they moved the spring perches forward.And they were reasonably low. The Chargers were only about 4" shorter than the VG sedan/ute. VH sedan was longer.

[Lee Nicolle]

This add would get some people back up following Hardie products an court cases that have taken place in the years out here in OZ.






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Different times. Asbestos lining were easier on rotors!
Though a concern for all of us that worked on brakes through that period.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
No the ones that I saw, the wheels were right forward in the arches. That is why they were recognisable. I guess they moved the spring perches forward. And they were reasonably low. The Chargers were only about 4" shorter than the VG sedan/ute. VH sedan was longer.

You're right about the comparatively similar lengths...

Charger was a 105" wheelbase, VG sedan, ute and wagon was 108" and VH sedans etc were 111". I was thinking of the total length cut off the utes, that was about 10".

Here's a pic... are the wheels really forward in the arches?

[Lee Nicolle]

Not the one I saw, it was a standard ute with the wheels right forward in the arches. It was white, I checked with my ex Chrysler mate last night. He left development in 72. But they did test most engine combos on the road mostly and track occasionally. He was not directly involved with the utes but saw them regularly. At one stage they had a 340 6 pack engine in one, in about 1969-70. Which was bloody quick on the road. The 340 was originally envisaged for VG but I gather supply was a REAL drama. There is 2 ex Chrysler VG coupes around though fitted with that engine [4 bbl]
As for the 340 being too heavy that will never wash.They are a very similar weight to the hemi, and ofcourse shorter. Too powerful for the chassis maybe though they were very succesfull in thge US in the same base chassis[Challenger, Dart etc]

[Ray Bell]

Lee, that is an actual 'mule' ute, it's the VF, which is probably the one that Graham Ryan used to tow his Torana Sports Sedan around...

The Hemi, Lee, is 160lbs lighter than the slant 6, the slant 6 is about the same weight as the 318. I have no doubt in the world that the 340 weighed a lot more than the Hemi, while the A833 gearbox behind it was much heavier than the Borg-Warner 3-speed they were using at the time, perhaps another 60lbs. Trust me, I know these things, I have them all in my backyard. 318s, A833s, 3-speed Borg-Warners, got the lot here. And a 340 on the way.

It was Leo himself who told me Pete put the instant kibosh on the 340 at Mallala. There was other 340 testing done on the road by a staff member who was involved with a dragster project ten years earlier.

As for the 'base chassis'... the local Valiants were all built on the 1967 and later A-body platform, the Challenger was an E-body, wider and longer. And the Darts they were raced in were the 111" wheelbase jobs, 5" longer than the Charger.

Edited by Ray Bell, 21 January 2011 - 00:12.

[seldo]

Not the one I saw, it was a standard ute with the wheels right forward in the arches. It was white, I checked with my ex Chrysler mate last night. He left development in 72. But they did test most engine combos on the road mostly and track occasionally. He was not directly involved with the utes but saw them regularly. At one stage they had a 340 6 pack engine in one, in about 1969-70. Which was bloody quick on the road. The 340 was originally envisaged for VG but I gather supply was a REAL drama. There is 2 ex Chrysler VG coupes around though fitted with that engine [4 bbl]
As for the 340 being too heavy that will never wash.They are a very similar weight to the hemi, and ofcourse shorter. Too powerful for the chassis maybe though they were very succesfull in thge US in the same base chassis[Challenger, Dart etc]

I also recall the white one, and whilst I wouldn't say the wheels were forward in the arches, it did appear strange in that it seemed to have excessive rear overhang. It was usually in the pits at race meetings around the Geoghegans. The red one shown above is certainly not the one I recall - looks quite different.

[Ray Bell]

David, it is the one, you'll find...

The Geoghegans used it and then Graham Ryan gave it a long term home. It's unaltered in the pic above, no doubt the colour makes it look different.

[Lee Nicolle]

Obviuosly 2 different utes. The orange one has got a short bum and the other one effectivly had a long one. Most Chysler ethusiasts have heard of the SWB utes. I have actually seen pics of the other one somewhere. Muscle Car maybe? I always though there was only one until recently. I saw it/them around this area quite a bit in the early 70s. Saw one take on a HO at the lights and it was a lot quicker. Probably in 340 guise. Though an E49 is [on a good day] is maginally faster over the 1/4.

[Ray Bell]

Lee, I've seen photos of both, I've probably seen both, they are both short in the bum!

I'm looking for photos but I can't find them in a big hurry. They're posted on some of the Chrysler forums, some are newpaper pics, others are pics when owned by later owners... as the one above.

What they tried to do with these utes was build a charger without a Charger body, to get all the weight balances and suspension the same so they could test without people knowing what they were testing. In the end they found that torsional rigidity etc was different, that the utes handled differently to the Chargers, but that's what they set out to do.

So they had to be shortened both in the wheelbase and overall.

[KarlLeFong]

Wasn't Leo Geoghegan a "fair dinkum" racing driver?

I thought he raced an ex-Clark Lotus Climax 39, latter Repco, out there in AU and in Japan, with great sucess.

Why would he be interested in Chrylser utilities etc ...did he like farm vehicles?


Please explain

Karl

[Ray Bell]

And he was the Gold Star Champion as well...

Between doing that and again winning the ANF 2 Championship, he raced Valiants. I think he liked that, the cars cost him nothing.

And please, cut the sarcasm... this is supposed to be a nice place where people get on all friendly like.

[eldougo]

Night racing at Oran Park in the Valiant Pacer




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[David Shaw]

Wasn't Leo Geoghegan a "fair dinkum" racing driver?

I thought he raced an ex-Clark Lotus Climax 39, latter Repco, out there in AU and in Japan, with great sucess.

Why would he be interested in Chrylser utilities etc ...did he like farm vehicles?


Please explain

Karl

Yes Stan he did have the ex-Clark Lotus 39, first with the fire pump engine and then with a couple of different Repcos. But he had been racing sedans since he took on his dad's ex-taxi Holden 48-215, and had raced many more before the ex-Clark Lotus.

As it was for him have wheels, will race.

As it is for TFN had raced, will discuss.

Whether you like it or not.

[Lola5000]

Wasn't Leo Geoghegan a "fair dinkum" racing driver?

I thought he raced an ex-Clark Lotus Climax 39, latter Repco, out there in AU and in Japan, with great sucess.

Why would he be interested in Chrylser utilities etc ...did he like farm vehicles?


Please explain

Karl

you crack me up.

[Lee Nicolle]

Night racing at Oran Park in the Valiant Pacer




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Doesnt the Pacer look huge compared with the Mini

[Wirra]

Outside Ray's request but just for Stan:

All that was good about Australian Motorsport


and some of the 59

[Lola5000]

Outside Ray's request but just for Stan:

All that was good about Australian Motorsport


and some of the 59

the second lotus,where is it now?

[Ray Bell]

Bob Johns owned that for a few years...

Not sure where it went after that. I just remember it being painted black and red, which didn't suit it.

Had an interesting modification to the wheel locknuts too, Kevin Carrad was always thinking.

[eldougo]

Here is another Castrol color car ,however Leo is not in the picture that day at Oran Park in 1969.



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[Jacer]

the second lotus,where is it now?

might find it in a shed in Toowoomba

[Ray Bell]

Buried under a pile of Birranas?

Must look up John this weekend, I'll be there working. Someone here got his number?

[Jacer]

Buried under a pile of Birranas?

Must look up John this weekend, I'll be there working. Someone here got his number?

Sorry Ray I don't. Tried to e-mail him to see if he was ok during the big wet but haven't had a reply.

[Ray Bell]

It's okay, I found it...

I realised later that someone sent it to me a year or so ago.

[GREENXC]

Buried under a pile of Birranas?

Must look up John this weekend, I'll be there working. Someone here got his number?

I suggest you get your facts right before you make comments like that. It is not buried under a pile of birranas. It has been fully restored to concours condition. And the birranas are all setout and together.

[Ray Bell]

That's good to hear...

And I'd be pleased to avoid speaking like that about the, but I don't know the circumstances at all. But with all the Birranas and stuff he has, I would have thought one would be tripping over them to get to the Lotus.

[lyntonh]

Pacer first ....

Bathurst...1970 Forrest's Elbow


Oran Park 20th September 1970


Oran Park 9th January 1971






Charger by name....Charger by nature....Oran Park 21st May 1972

Edited by lyntonh, 20 February 2012 - 12:02.

[eldougo]

I have noticed that Leo has a New South Wales Rego plate and in 2 other shots its missing what going on here.

Edited by eldougo, 27 January 2011 - 05:24.

[Ray Bell]

They're SA numberplates, Douglas...

No idea why some have them and others don't, maybe some meetings they drove to the circuit?






(or lost their screwdrivers?)


Good pics there, Lynton, thanks.

[lyntonh]

I have noticed that Leo has a New South Wales Rego plate and in 2 other shots its missing what going on here.

South Australian Rego...I have other photos of the Geoghegan Pacer with NSW rego in June 1970.

No plate on the Bathurst car.

And then the shot from OP in September 1970 looks like its masked over.

The Charger rear plate is masked over as well.

I have some shots at the Farm three months earlier with the front plate on the Charger masked over
& the same 8th month rego label.

It's interesting to match up the Charger's number with the cars in the earlier shots that Wirra posted.

[gtsmunro]

Here is another Castrol color car ,however Leo is not in the picture that day at Oran Park in 1969.



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I've got a old mag around here somewhere where that car is for sale from the Goeghegan's for I think around $3-4k. I wonder what happened to it? I know where there's another in a shed in the Blue Mountains, owned by a family member. Be nice If he ever get's it back on the road, but it needs a lot of work.

As for the Charger, wasn't there some issue regarding Chrysler trying to keep a high local content in the car which compromised their braking (lack of power booster) and left them with a 3 speed box early in their career?

IIRC, John McCormack had a very rapid Charger!!!

[Lee Nicolle]

I've got a old mag around here somewhere where that car is for sale from the Goeghegan's for I think around $3-4k. I wonder what happened to it? I know where there's another in a shed in the Blue Mountains, owned by a family member. Be nice If he ever get's it back on the road, but it needs a lot of work.

As for the Charger, wasn't there some issue regarding Chrysler trying to keep a high local content in the car which compromised their braking (lack of power booster) and left them with a 3 speed box early in their career?

IIRC, John McCormack had a very rapid Charger!!!

Macs Charger was very quick, but it was a Sports Sedan powered by a Repco Holden!!
The lack of booster was supposedly for better pedal fdeel, and really it was not bad. The 3 speed was because Borg Warner were about 3 years late with the single rail box. And it seems Ford had first dibs on them once they were finally advailable.
The Geoghan Charger was wrecked here in Adelaide in the early 90s by a family who wrecked several of them, but still have a few more left and a lot of parts!

[gtsmunro]

Sounds like a family in Raymond Terrace who had Charger's and parts everywhere in an old panel shop. They claimed to have one of Geoghegans Chargers (Hemi Orange???). I was amazed by how much Charger stuff they had about the place. Heaps of R/T stuff. Sadly I went past a fortnight ago and it looks like they've moved.

[Ray Bell]

The Raymond Terrace pile, when I saw them in July, were inside the shed...

The car that came third at Bathurst in 1972 was there (Damon Beck's car as driven by Doug Chivas) and a Leo Geoghegan car.

[gtsmunro]

Went past today. Your right Ray. The yard's been cleaned up but there was a Charger sitting in the drive way that wasn't there a fortnight ago. Obviously aren't doing much these days as the shop was locked up tight.

[Ray Bell]

He was making special oil pumps for the Hemi 6s, but he doesn't do that any more...

There are more 265 blocks in that shed than were ever sold by all the dealers in Newcastle, I swear it!

[PonysiteEd]

Leos Charger in the Birdwood Museum..







Display said: 1971 Bathurst 2nd place in class, later crashed at Philip Island, body #27 (1 of 4 1971 Chrysler racers)

[275 GTB-4]

Thanks Ed...ifn yer quick you can delete the other posts Cheers, Mick