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Jenson and Lewis Scorecard 2010 [merged]


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#1 BullHead

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 00:08

There appears to be a lot of concensus on the board that Jenson may very well partner Lewis at McLaren for 2010. It's too much for me.. Fred and Massa in Ferrari is going to be spectacle enough. Imagine, two great wars within two great teams... Could McLaren handle the internal heat? better than Ferrari? What do you think would happen in such a partnership?

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#2 Mia 01

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 00:11

I wouldn´t mind.
But as I know ´him Jenson was insecure before.

#3 undersquare

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 00:12

People would think better of Kovy.

#4 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 00:12

Already been done.

Twice.

#5 Mia 01

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 00:20

People would think better of Kovy.

:up:


#6 Xaus

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 00:54

Career suicide on Jenson's part.

Although, at this point, it seems like all he cares about is money anyway.

Edited by Xaus, 15 November 2009 - 00:54.


#7 raiseyourfistfor

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 00:54

Button would get destroyed so badly that he will probably consider early retirement after 2010

#8 jesee

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 00:58

Good move. He will prove himself once and for all...and if that fails be can cry the "no. 2 game"

#9 Clatter

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 00:59

Many were predicting a career ending partnership when Mac put the rookie alongside FA, didnt happen. Many said KR would wipe the floor with FM, didnt happen. LH might well beat JB, but it won't end his career.

#10 BullHead

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 01:03

I think it would be bloody close. Too close for comfort from a team point of view. If these line ups happen 2010 will really be a constructors fight, above the drivers for once...

#11 Clatter

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 01:08

I think it would be bloody close. Too close for comfort from a team point of view. If these line ups happen 2010 will really be a constructors fight, above the drivers for once...


If the teams get the cars right we have the potential for an absolute cracker of a season.

#12 Bluesmoke

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 01:13

Button at Mclaren would be a disaster. Hamilton will obliterate him nearly every race.

#13 karina_k

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 01:19

Brawn talks not over says JB's manager

Still keeping the escape exit open,Jense? ;)

#14 primer

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 01:25

Lewis may be the quicker of the two Britons, but the difference in laptimes would be smaller than it has been with Lewis-Heikki. It would be a nice driver pairing. :up:

#15 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 02:05

Brawn talks not over says JB's manager

Still keeping the escape exit open,Jense?;)

Okay, new insane idea: what if Button visiting McLaren is a condition of a contract?

McLaren want Raikkonen, but he's being unreasonable. With Mercedes looking to inject a lot of cash into Brawn and sever ties with McLaren - Martin Brundle claims the decision will be announced this coming week (though Mcaren will be a Mercedes customer team) - they could easily cover Button's requested salary. As Brawn doesn't have much money to spare and Button doesn't have a contract, McLaren and Mercedes are putting them to good use until Mercedes officially joins Brawn.

So here's how it works: McLaren make a show of having Button visit their Woking facility. At or at about the same time, Raikkonen's people are also seen there. The idea is to give Raikkonen a hurry-up and make up his mind. McLaren close on a Raikkonen deal, and then Mercedes move to Brawn, who come into a lot of money; more than enough to pay Button. Ross Brawn is in on it (and could even be the mastermind given his reputation for strategy and tactics); he has to be in order to make it work. They have to engineer this perceived fall-out between Button and Brawn and then come through in the clinch.

#16 maccaFTW

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 02:09

The battle between Lewis and Jenson would be close. A lot closer than many of you anticipate.

Jenson is a very, very quick F1 driver. Winning a world championship proves such and solidifies one as among the top drivers in F1, which Button certainly is. Before Brawn shifted to 2010 and made a mess of their attempts to address his tire-warming problems, he obliterated Rubens- a VERY quick F1 driver- on pace in qualifying and the race. Cooler tire temps played to Rubens' hands in qualifying, as his driving style warms the tires more quickly than Jenson's. Even so, Jenson's race pace was as good as or better than Rubens' in every race past Turkey; he was just too far down the grid to do anything about it.

I think Lewis is the better driver. But people who are saying he will "obliterate" Jenson are seriously underestimating the latter.

Let's also not forget that next year, the weight distribution changes on the cars will push them more in an understeery direction and will put a premium on drivers' ability to manage the tires at the beginning of runs and in the first stints in races. This will also play into Jenson's hands, as he's an understeery driver and is very good at managing tires. Lewis, on the other hand, is perhaps the most oversteery driver on the grid, and he can really torture the tires.

#17 maccaFTW

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 02:11

Okay, new insane idea: what if Button visiting McLaren is a condition of a contract?

McLaren want Raikkonen, but he's being unreasonable. With Mercedes looking to inject a lot of cash into Brawn and sever ties with McLaren - Martin Brundle claims the decision will be announced this coming week (though Mcaren will be a Mercedes customer team) - they could easily cover Button's requested salary. As Brawn doesn't have much money to spare and Button doesn't have a contract, McLaren and Mercedes are putting them to good use until Mercedes officially joins Brawn.

So here's how it works: McLaren make a show of having Button visit their Woking facility. At or at about the same time, Raikkonen's people are also seen there. The idea is to give Raikkonen a hurry-up and make up his mind. McLaren close on a Raikkonen deal, and then Mercedes move to Brawn, who come into a lot of money; more than enough to pay Button. Ross Brawn is in on it (and could even be the mastermind given his reputation for strategy and tactics); he has to be in order to make it work. They have to engineer this perceived fall-out between Button and Brawn and then come through in the clinch.


You're on to something, I think.

#18 karina_k

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 02:11

Okay, new insane idea: what if Button visiting McLaren is a condition of a contract?

McLaren want Raikkonen, but he's being unreasonable. With Mercedes looking to inject a lot of cash into Brawn and sever ties with McLaren - Martin Brundle claims the decision will be announced this coming week (though Mcaren will be a Mercedes customer team) - they could easily cover Button's requested salary. As Brawn doesn't have much money to spare and Button doesn't have a contract, McLaren and Mercedes are putting them to good use until Mercedes officially joins Brawn.

So here's how it works: McLaren make a show of having Button visit their Woking facility. At or at about the same time, Raikkonen's people are also seen there. The idea is to give Raikkonen a hurry-up and make up his mind. McLaren close on a Raikkonen deal, and then Mercedes move to Brawn, who come into a lot of money; more than enough to pay Button. Ross Brawn is in on it (and could even be the mastermind given his reputation for strategy and tactics); he has to be in order to make it work. They have to engineer this perceived fall-out between Button and Brawn and then come through in the clinch.


So simple really! :D

#19 Madera

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 02:16

If the teams get the cars right we have the potential for an absolute cracker of a season.

For sure! :up:

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#20 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 02:40

You're on to something, I think.

I admit that it's born more out of my desire to see Button stay at Brawn than anything else.

But I can see no reason why Ross Brawn can't offer him any more money. If Martin Brundle's article is right, Brawn are going to get a massive windfall, and soon. They evidently don't have the money right now, but as they're getting it in the very immediate future, why aren't they at least making promises that they can offer more when the investment comes? The answer, I think, is that they're helping McLaren out of a bind and Mercedes out of a contract. McLaren get Raikkonen, Mercedes get to join Brawn and Button get a drive. Everyone wins, and that's the point of negotiating: coming to terms that everone can agree on, where they all get the best possible outcome.

#21 velgajski1

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 07:39

The battle between Lewis and Jenson would be close. A lot closer than many of you anticipate.

Jenson is a very, very quick F1 driver. Winning a world championship proves such and solidifies one as among the top drivers in F1, which Button certainly is. Before Brawn shifted to 2010 and made a mess of their attempts to address his tire-warming problems, he obliterated Rubens- a VERY quick F1 driver- on pace in qualifying and the race. Cooler tire temps played to Rubens' hands in qualifying, as his driving style warms the tires more quickly than Jenson's. Even so, Jenson's race pace was as good as or better than Rubens' in every race past Turkey; he was just too far down the grid to do anything about it.

I think Lewis is the better driver. But people who are saying he will "obliterate" Jenson are seriously underestimating the latter.

Let's also not forget that next year, the weight distribution changes on the cars will push them more in an understeery direction and will put a premium on drivers' ability to manage the tires at the beginning of runs and in the first stints in races. This will also play into Jenson's hands, as he's an understeery driver and is very good at managing tires. Lewis, on the other hand, is perhaps the most oversteery driver on the grid, and he can really torture the tires.


Absolutely agree with you on that, many people underrate Button simply because press doesn't like him much. And Lewis could have big problems beating him.

From Button's point of view it might be a good decision actually. He could probably get better money from Mclaren, Brawn will probably not be so strong next season, if he beats Hamilton he'll finally prove that he is top driver, and if he loses - he lost against probably best in current F1, and can always blame the team for favoring Lewis.


#22 zarooch

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 14:05

if Kimi's deal doesn't happen with Mclaren, I think McLaren will rather keep Kova rather than taking someone else and I've said this before. In all this guess who's the biggest loser? :)

Kimi will happily leave as he already has 2010 pay from Ferrari, Heidfeld's career is near its end.. well it never started so...

So in all this Button will then have to take his sorry ass back to Brawn and sign that deal :wave:

#23 kensaundm31

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 16:04

In terms of empirical evidence for this situation, you have to look at how Button fared against Alonso at renault...


#24 MinT

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 16:04

They are not going to keep Kova - he has proved he cant score the points needed to get them the WCC

#25 Brawn BGP 001

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 16:38

In terms of empirical evidence for this situation, you have to look at how Button fared against Alonso at renault...

Quite hard when they did not race against each other.

#26 kensaundm31

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 16:43

good point.

er...oh yes. actually I was just testing you all.

Well done, you passed! :)

#27 ex Rhodie racer 2

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 16:44

Button at Mclaren would be a disaster. Hamilton will obliterate him nearly every race.

I don´t agree. There won´t be much in it, but Button will end the season with a higher points tally.

#28 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 20:32

Okay, new insane idea: what if Button visiting McLaren is a condition of a contract?

McLaren want Raikkonen, but he's being unreasonable. With Mercedes looking to inject a lot of cash into Brawn and sever ties with McLaren - Martin Brundle claims the decision will be announced this coming week (though Mcaren will be a Mercedes customer team) - they could easily cover Button's requested salary. As Brawn doesn't have much money to spare and Button doesn't have a contract, McLaren and Mercedes are putting them to good use until Mercedes officially joins Brawn.

So here's how it works: McLaren make a show of having Button visit their Woking facility. At or at about the same time, Raikkonen's people are also seen there. The idea is to give Raikkonen a hurry-up and make up his mind. McLaren close on a Raikkonen deal, and then Mercedes move to Brawn, who come into a lot of money; more than enough to pay Button. Ross Brawn is in on it (and could even be the mastermind given his reputation for strategy and tactics); he has to be in order to make it work. They have to engineer this perceived fall-out between Button and Brawn and then come through in the clinch.



For the amounts of money involved and the interplay of politics this level of market manipulation would not surprise me in the slightest. Its would also boost my opinion of Ross Brawn to new dizzying heights if he does indeed mastermind such a plan and pull it off to his advantage.

Would also explain his confirmation of being 99% certain of keeping Button. Announcing with such clarity the deal is up in the air plays into Brawns hands more than anyone as he stands to gain a cut price Raikkonen or cut some other deal with Merc.

#29 BullHead

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 21:04

I think that both Jenson and Lewis have the brains to get on with each other very well, indeed sharing the correct info for a 'team' effort. I would bet only if the fight gets to be between them both only above any other contenders, will there be any fireworks... C'mon they Brits. Gentleman racers....

#30 Yellowmc

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 21:17

Lewis (IMO) is far better than Jenson in every way. He'll beat him and do it quite comfortable putting a whole new perspective on Kova and Alonso.

Lewis is the real deal people.

#31 MaxFan1

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 21:22

Lewis and Button at McLaren. The two best drivers in the best car. Nothing to do with nationality :up:

#32 Simon Says

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 21:32

I don´t agree. There won´t be much in it, but Button will end the season with a higher points tally.


:lol:

Jenson is extremely overrated. Rubens consistently beaten him once he solved his brake problems with the Brawn GP. If Fisi, Ralph Schumacher and Rubens can beat him, Lewis can definetely beat Jenson :wave:

But Jenson is going to sign at Brawn GP/Mercedes. They want to have #1 on the car obviously. Expect in the next few days that Nico and Jenson be announced. :wave:

#33 Pegaso

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 21:41

Well, with the most extreme nº1/nº2 drivers' policy in Formula 1, it would be pretty difficult for anyone to beat LH at McLaren. No wonder why Stewart, Coulthard, etc., people who know how the W@nking team works have adviced JB not to go there.

#34 alg7_munif

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 21:42

Button likes an understeering car while Lewis likes an oversteering car so I don't think it will work well for both of them if they are in the same team.

#35 Sausage

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 21:49

I'd loved to see Jenson destroyed but he is pretty consistent you have to say. If he's close to ham he won't be bad.

#36 Demo.

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 23:27

Well, with the most extreme nº1/nº2 drivers' policy in Formula 1, it would be pretty difficult for anyone to beat LH at McLaren. No wonder why Stewart, Coulthard, etc., people who know how the W@nking team works have adviced JB not to go there.



How long have you followed F1 for?
1 race?
perhaps you should look at ferrari before you start tyring to say maclaren are anything like as extreme as Ferrari after all when was the last time you saw a maclaren pulling over to let his team mate by and apart from this year when was the last year it did not happen with ferrari

#37 Magnus

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 23:35

I think it would be bloody close. Too close for comfort from a team point of view. If these line ups happen 2010 will really be a constructors fight, above the drivers for once...


Button had his hands full with a 37 year old Barrichello. Hamilton would destroy him. Button is a poor qualifier so he would start pretty much every race behind Hamilton. It would be a whitewash.

#38 CWeil

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 23:37

Alan Henry is reporting that Button is about to sign at McLaren.

Looks like this thread might be relevant after all.

I'm a huge fan of Button, but this is a bad, bad idea. (Especially given that he and Hamilton like VERY different cars)

#39 bankoq

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 23:37

Does Jenson like understeery cars? I hope so.

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#40 Mia 01

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 23:40

He only needs a dominant car.

#41 Magnus

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 23:44

The battle between Lewis and Jenson would be close. A lot closer than many of you anticipate.

Jenson is a very, very quick F1 driver.


Slower than Ralf, Trulli, Fisichella and about as fast as rubens barrichello. No indication of button being a very very quick driver. Thats why i prefer to stick to cold hard data than emotive hype.

Winning a world championship proves such and solidifies one as among the top drivers in F1, which Button certainly is. Before Brawn shifted to 2010 and made a mess of their attempts to address his tire-warming problems, he obliterated Rubens- a VERY quick F1 driver- on pace in qualifying and the race. Cooler tire temps played to Rubens' hands in qualifying, as his driving style warms the tires more quickly than Jenson's. Even so, Jenson's race pace was as good as or better than Rubens' in every race past Turkey; he was just too far down the grid to do anything about it.


From the reports I heard the difference between the first part of the season and Silverstone onwards when Rubens started to consistenty dominate button in qualifying was brawn solved rubens braking issues and he was able to start using the rear wheel covers which cost him a few tenths in the first part of the season compared to button. We also cant ignore, 2007, 2008, where once again there was nothing to chose in speed between the honda drivers. If you look at buttons career hes always been solid but thats it. Hamilton would annihilate him.

In regards to next year and understeery cars. That could be the case but from what i understand the teams will be able to counter that with aero balance, so maybe they wont be as understeery as we suspect. Either way I expect Hamilton to adapt.

#42 Mia 01

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 23:46

Slower than Ralf, Trulli, Fisichella and about as fast as rubens barrichello. No indication of button being a very very quick driver. Thats why i prefer to stick to cold hard data than emotive hype.



From the reports I heard the difference between the first part of the season and Silverstone onwards when Rubens started to consistenty dominate button in qualifying was brawn solved rubens braking issues and he was able to start using the rear wheel covers which cost him a few tenths in the first part of the season compared to button. We also cant ignore, 2007, 2008, where once again there was nothing to chose in speed between the honda drivers. If you look at buttons career hes always been solid but thats it. Hamilton would annihilate him.

In regards to next year and understeery cars. That could be the case but from what i understand the teams will be able to counter that with aero balance, so maybe they wont be as understeery as we suspect. Either way I expect Hamilton to adapt.

"The battle will be close"

Please spare me this.

#43 Brawn BGP 001

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 23:49

Slower than Ralf, Trulli, Fisichella and about as fast as rubens barrichello. No indication of button being a very very quick driver. Thats why i prefer to stick to cold hard data than emotive hype.



From the reports I heard the difference between the first part of the season and Silverstone onwards when Rubens started to consistenty dominate button in qualifying was brawn solved rubens braking issues and he was able to start using the rear wheel covers which cost him a few tenths in the first part of the season compared to button. We also cant ignore, 2007, 2008, where once again there was nothing to chose in speed between the honda drivers. If you look at buttons career hes always been solid but thats it. Hamilton would annihilate him.

In regards to next year and understeery cars. That could be the case but from what i understand the teams will be able to counter that with aero balance, so maybe they wont be as understeery as we suspect. Either way I expect Hamilton to adapt.

Yet no mention of 2006. :rolleyes:

In 2009, after Silverstone, Barrichello was qucker in Qs but Button was quicker in race, Signapore was great example of this. If it was not for the safety car, Button could have finished 3rd.

Edited by Brawn BGP 001, 16 November 2009 - 23:50.


#44 GIBF1

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 23:51

Yet no mention of 2006. :rolleyes:

In 2009, after Silverstone, Barrichello was qucker in Qs but Button was quicker in race, Signapore was great example of this. If it was not for the safety car, Button could have finished 3rd.


:up:

#45 Simon Says

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 23:54

Button likes an understeering car while Lewis likes an oversteering car so I don't think it will work well for both of them if they are in the same team.


What makes you think that?

In 2007 the Mclaren was an understeering car and he was on his way to win the WDC in his rookie year. In GP2 he also drove a car that was understeering as well. In 2008 the Mclaren was a bit more difficult to drive with oversteering but still won the WDC.

Lewis is just good with any type of car that is given to him, whether it's oversteering or understeering.

The concern of Button and Lewis is not whether the car is oversteering or understeering, but if Mclaren can fix the aero problems they had this year for the 2010 car :lol: It seems they have been in the right direction but Lewis still lost too much time in high speed corners at Suzuka so they haven't solved it yet.


#46 Simon Says

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 00:01

Yet no mention of 2006. :rolleyes:

In 2009, after Silverstone, Barrichello was qucker in Qs but Button was quicker in race, Signapore was great example of this. If it was not for the safety car, Button could have finished 3rd.


Was 2006 the first year of Rubens at Honda? If it was that one then you know why Rubens performed poorly if you watched it.

Rubens didn't perform any testing because he was too lazy to do it and was spending all his time in Brazil. He found out that it was a mistake to just jump in an unknown car without any testing and development work and he sucked in the first part of the season, I mean really terrible in almost the same extend as how Fisi performed compared to Kimi at Ferrari.

Rubens didn't make excuses about it and blamed himself for it for being lazy and that he will work with the car. And during the season, he drove very strongly

Edited by Simon Says, 17 November 2009 - 00:03.


#47 undersquare

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 00:15

What makes you think that?

In 2007 the Mclaren was an understeering car and he was on his way to win the WDC in his rookie year. In GP2 he also drove a car that was understeering as well. In 2008 the Mclaren was a bit more difficult to drive with oversteering but still won the WDC.

Lewis is just good with any type of car that is given to him, whether it's oversteering or understeering.

The concern of Button and Lewis is not whether the car is oversteering or understeering, but if Mclaren can fix the aero problems they had this year for the 2010 car :lol: It seems they have been in the right direction but Lewis still lost too much time in high speed corners at Suzuka so they haven't solved it yet.


Lewis does his own setups now, and the car has developed for him. That's why Jenson's manager was stipulating about car development not excluding him.

Lewis can drive understeer, but oversteer is faster, that's what Lewis has, and Jense can't drive it. Lewis only drives oversteer these days.

What's more Lewis can switch his tyres on with the brakes, in a way that Jense can't.

Plus we've heard that Jenson isn't great with setups, and Hammy's won't be much use to him.

So there will be quite a few races where Jense will make Heikki look quite good, I fear.

I'm still faintly hoping it's brinkmanship and it'll be Kimi in the end.

#48 De Jokke

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 00:18

I wonder if ratboy will ask mclaren for hami's setup as he did at brawn with barri's...

#49 alg7_munif

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 00:22

What makes you think that?

In 2007 the Mclaren was an understeering car and he was on his way to win the WDC in his rookie year. In GP2 he also drove a car that was understeering as well. In 2008 the Mclaren was a bit more difficult to drive with oversteering but still won the WDC.

Lewis is just good with any type of car that is given to him, whether it's oversteering or understeering.

The concern of Button and Lewis is not whether the car is oversteering or understeering, but if Mclaren can fix the aero problems they had this year for the 2010 car :lol: It seems they have been in the right direction but Lewis still lost too much time in high speed corners at Suzuka so they haven't solved it yet.

Hamilton can drive fast on both setup but he prefer to let the back end slide a bit rather than understeering.

#50 Magnus

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 04:11

Yet no mention of 2006. :rolleyes:

In 2009, after Silverstone, Barrichello was qucker in Qs but Button was quicker in race, Signapore was great example of this. If it was not for the safety car, Button could have finished 3rd.


Rubens had a grid penalty at singapore.