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Massa: "Button is the weakest active champion"


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#301 Brawn BGP 001

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 00:22

lets cut to the chase because this is getting out of hand. Button was given the boot to make way for montoya and then for alonos at renaulr.

Like Massa was given the boot at Sauber for Heinz Harald Frentzen and found himself without a race drive.

Edited by Brawn BGP 001, 21 November 2009 - 00:24.


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#302 Mia 01

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 00:27

Even if you are a die hard fan, Jenson .................?

#303 BMW_F1

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 00:30

Like Massa was given the boot at Sauber for Heinz Harald Frentzen and found himself without a race drive.

so what's your point. ?
massa is saying button is not as good as the other 3 wdcs. That's what is in question_ not how good massa is.

#304 Mia 01

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 00:36

Williams, Honda, Brawn, Maclaren

?????????????????
Jenson?

Edited by Mia 01, 21 November 2009 - 01:09.


#305 Brawn BGP 001

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 00:38

so what's your point. ?
massa is saying button is not as good as the other 3 wdcs. That's what is in question_ not how good massa is.

Just saying what happened back in 2000-2002 doesn't really matter these days.


#306 Mia 01

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 01:00

All out there. Jenson is nothing, nothing, even Rubens is better.

#307 BMW_F1

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 01:00

Just saying what happened back in 2000-2002 doesn't really matter these days.

it does matter because it influenced people's opinion about Button..

Edited by BMW_F1, 21 November 2009 - 01:22.


#308 Brawn BGP 001

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 01:10

it does matter because it influeced people's opinion about Button..

Back in 2002, many people thought Massa was a crasher, now most rate him as a top racer (and rightly so). I can see him winning a Championship.

In the early 2000's, Button was compared to a boy band member, beause of his lazy attitude; he has since grown up and has won a Championship.

Massa and Button have improved massively from their rookie years and in my opinion are both deserving of McLaren/Ferrari seats.

I rate both in my top 5 current GP drivers.

Edited by Brawn BGP 001, 21 November 2009 - 01:15.


#309 Mia 01

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 01:10

Just saying what happened back in 2000-2002 doesn't really matter these days.


Jenson is the same person.


#310 Nitropower

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 01:43

Massa is right in my opinion. Button would've never won the championship without a DDD. Sorry for his fans but Massa says the truth. He lacks the ambition of Hamilton, the speed of Kimi or the fighting spirit of Alonso. He won on merit, period, but he had the best car in the grid by miles and a mediocre team mate. When things levelled off he was more mediocre than his mediocre team mate.

Thank god he had Ross and the approval of the DDD.

Edited by Nitropower, 21 November 2009 - 01:47.


#311 Tifosi90

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 01:49

And why is Button a weak WDC? because he didn't dominate like Michael did in the past?

Seriously, this whole thing about "weaker or stronger WDC" is just nothing more than pathetic semantics. A driver is here to win the WDC, whether he wins it by one win or 18 wins, that doesn't matter. He still a deserving WDC, and by default was the best driver that year. Everything else is just opinions...


You just don't seem to get it. Here I will write it as simply as possible.

2005 - Alonso beats Kimi to the WDC. Kimi was already considered one of the best in F1 at that time and many were only waiting when he will win his first WDC. Alonso also smashed Fisi his team mate by 75 points.

2006 - Alonso beats Michael to the WDC. Michael is easily one of the best drivers ever in F1. Alonso again smashes Fisi by 62 points.

2007 - Kimi beats Alonso & Hamilton & Massa. Kimi beats a two times champion and also beats Hamilton who many considered a world champion in waiting. Kimi also beat Massa by 16 points.

2008 - Hamilton beats Massa & Kimi to the WDC. Hamilton beats a world champion and Massa to the tittle.

2009 - Button beats Rubens & Vettel to the WDC. Rubens is considered by many to be an average number 2 driver which he was his whole career. Vettel is considered by many to be very good but he had a bad season with driver mistakes and car unreability. Button beat Rubens by 18 points.

See where this is going? All the current WDC's had a much harder time racing against much better drivers than Rubens or Vettel. Alonso beat Kimi and Michael, Kimi beat Alonso, Hamilton, Massa and Hamilton beat Massa & Kimi to the tittle.

There's a big difference between Rubens, Vettel and the rest of drivers I have mentioned. What I am trying to say Button had an easy competition compared to what Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton had when they won their WDC's.

There's a big difference beating an average number 2 driver like Rubens or beating a 7 time world champion don't you think?

#312 Madera

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 01:58



#313 Nitropower

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 02:12

Yeah yeah lots of fun and stuff but then Ferrari choose wrong tyres right before the start of a race or f... up with the traffic lights.
Not encouraging to stay cool.

Edited by Nitropower, 21 November 2009 - 02:12.


#314 senna da silva

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 02:17

Without a doubt Button has some of the worst racecraft ever for a WDC. The guy can't defend to save his life and is the only driver to make Mika Hakkinen look decisive at overtaking.

#315 Cyborg

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 02:18

Back in 2002, many people thought Massa was a crasher, now most rate him as a top racer (and rightly so). I can see him winning a Championship.

In the early 2000's, Button was compared to a boy band member, beause of his lazy attitude; he has since grown up and has won a Championship.

Massa and Button have improved massively from their rookie years and in my opinion are both deserving of McLaren/Ferrari seats.

I rate both in my top 5 current GP drivers.



Massa is still a crasher the only difference between then and now is his quality of car, which allows him to get good results every now and then. Same as with button, he didnt grow he just got a dominant car and was lucky all his challengers were incompetent. Button barely beat the 37 year old rubens barrichello and your telling us hes one of the best drivers on the grid? :rotfl:

#316 Archybald

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 02:23


:clap: :rotfl: :lol: :rotfl: :clap:

Oh god i swore to myself i wouldnt do one of those "quote and smiley posts" but i just had to lol

#317 Madera

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 03:13

:clap: :rotfl: :lol: :rotfl: :clap:

Oh god i swore to myself i wouldnt do one of those "quote and smiley posts" but i just had to lol

Exactly! :lol:

#318 WDC1992

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 04:44

Felipe Massa said today to ESPN Brazil that all other World Champions are better than Jenson Button:

"Hamilton and Alonso are great drivers. Kimi is excellent, I really didnt understand all the critiques that people were throwing at him. When he was on..... all of them are better than Button"

Do you think this is a general perception in Formula 1 among drivers, mechanics and team chiefs?

http://espnbrasil.te...PEAO MAIS FRACO


After Massa wins a Formula 1 world drivers championships he can have an opinion, until then he should keep his opinions on world champions to himself.

#319 WebBerK

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 05:05

After Massa wins a Formula 1 world drivers championships he can have an opinion, until then he should keep his opinions on world champions to himself.

Everybody can have an opinion, the problem is the intrinsic weight it has.

A WDC title holder can say such thing and forumers can say it either, however the latter won't have a legitimate one.

Like in militar or judicial environments, Massa has an inferior status quo to Button, so he his opinion has less weight bcs he can't judge superior people, its vice-versa.
Button surelly knows what it takes and lived the experience, for sure.

Button saying "Massa is the lesser WDC contender" has more value than Massa saying "Button is the lesser WDC beholder".

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#320 bl-f1

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 06:25



Regardless of how each of us value his statement, Massa's recent comments are in line with previous behavior but, IMO, the range of his statements has become a tad wider.

In my opinion it is disrespectful to qualify as "weaker than" a fellow driver who has just become World Champion, just as it is disrespectful to say that your team mate must have been involved in crash-gate when the World Motor Sport Council has just cleared him of any wrong doing.

These are opinions that any of us are allowed in this forum, but that most of us would think twice before repeating them in front of a microphone and a TV crew. If on top of this you add that you have public relations responsibilities to your employer, Massa's statement appears even more out of accepted range of behavior.

Increased range of emotions and disinhibition are a part of frontal lobe damage. This is not really worrying as people around brain-injured individuals can adjust to it. But impairment of complex-decision making and multi-tasking can go in hand.

Let us wait to see if this recent injury has turned Massa into a more daring driver or an insufferable source of embarrassment for his employer.

#321 velgajski1

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 06:54

Massa has gone nuts after his crash... though, I think its more related to Alonso arrival combined with Massa intrinsic lack of confidence. Anyway, Button is far from it, and has shown not only that he is capable of winning WDC, but also that he has balls of steel coming into Mclaren. I don't think he'll beat Lewis, but obviously he'll try to prove himself against him.

#322 senna da silva

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 07:20

Regardless of how each of us value his statement, Massa's recent comments are in line with previous behavior but, IMO, the range of his statements has become a tad wider.

In my opinion it is disrespectful to qualify as "weaker than" a fellow driver who has just become World Champion, just as it is disrespectful to say that your team mate must have been involved in crash-gate when the World Motor Sport Council has just cleared him of any wrong doing.

These are opinions that any of us are allowed in this forum, but that most of us would think twice before repeating them in front of a microphone and a TV crew. If on top of this you add that you have public relations responsibilities to your employer, Massa's statement appears even more out of accepted range of behavior.

Increased range of emotions and disinhibition are a part of frontal lobe damage. This is not really worrying as people around brain-injured individuals can adjust to it. But impairment of complex-decision making and multi-tasking can go in hand.

Let us wait to see if this recent injury has turned Massa into a more daring driver or an insufferable source of embarrassment for his employer.


To believe that Alonso didn't have any clue as to what happened is just naive! But then for Alonso to stand in front of a camera, after everyone knew that Piquet had thrown the race, and still pronounce that he deserved to win the 2008 Singapore GP is just unbelieveable. What kind of person can do that?

#323 mkay

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 07:26

To believe that Alonso didn't have any clue as to what happened is just naive! But then for Alonso to stand in front of a camera, after everyone knew that Piquet had thrown the race, and still pronounce that he deserved to win the 2008 Singapore GP is just unbelieveable. What kind of person can do that?


A great two-time champion, who's already considered as one of the best all-time.

#324 senna da silva

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 07:29

A great two-time champion, who's already considered as one of the best all-time.


Is that the same line you used to justify Schumacher in '97?

#325 mkay

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 07:39

Is that the same line you used to justify Schumacher in '97?


I actually did not defend Schumacher. However, it is harsh to blame Alonso. He did drive very well and controlled the race post safety car.

#326 velgajski1

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 08:02

A great two-time champion, who's already considered as one of the best all-time.


By you? In my books he doesn't get to the top 10 of all times. If he wins a WDC with Ferrari than he will, not before.

#327 ViMaMo

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 10:15

Lewis just played around with Massa in 2007. It was just hilarious watching Massa messing up his race lines attacking Lewis. Superb defense from Hamster.

#328 DePortago

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 10:17

To believe that Alonso didn't have any clue as to what happened is just naive! But then for Alonso to stand in front of a camera, after everyone knew that Piquet had thrown the race, and still pronounce that he deserved to win the 2008 Singapore GP is just unbelieveable. What kind of person can do that?



A lot of people could do that.

#329 DePortago

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 10:19

Yoour beloved Ayrton could do that (he did even worst things, so you´d better be quiet).

#330 Chezrome

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 10:23

To believe that Alonso didn't have any clue as to what happened is just naive! But then for Alonso to stand in front of a camera, after everyone knew that Piquet had thrown the race, and still pronounce that he deserved to win the 2008 Singapore GP is just unbelieveable. What kind of person can do that?


Perhaps it is difficult to comprehend. But please rewatch the race, especially watch how Alonso drives the Renault at that track, from within the car as well from the outside. The whole race he was on the limit. Yes, if Piquet had not crashed on purpose, Alonso would not have won that race. While at the same time, his driving was wortthy of the win. Two weeks later he won the Japanese Grand Prix... His car was a lot better. He was not driving on the limit at all. The world championship contenders made mistakes. Alonso got the victory thrown in his lap.

So yes, I think that Alonso has every right to feel he deserved to win the Singapore Grand Prix. (Like Fisichella deserved to win at Spa this year. He just didn't').

#331 DFV

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 12:31

All out there. Jenson is nothing, nothing, even Rubens is better.


Please remind me, who became WDC in 2009. Rubens or Jenson? :rotfl:

#332 cardin

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 13:57

Regardless of how each of us value his statement, Massa's recent comments are in line with previous behavior but, IMO, the range of his statements has become a tad wider.

In my opinion it is disrespectful to qualify as "weaker than" a fellow driver who has just become World Champion, just as it is disrespectful to say that your team mate must have been involved in crash-gate when the World Motor Sport Council has just cleared him of any wrong doing.

These are opinions that any of us are allowed in this forum, but that most of us would think twice before repeating them in front of a microphone and a TV crew. If on top of this you add that you have public relations responsibilities to your employer, Massa's statement appears even more out of accepted range of behavior.

Increased range of emotions and disinhibition are a part of frontal lobe damage. This is not really worrying as people around brain-injured individuals can adjust to it. But impairment of complex-decision making and multi-tasking can go in hand.

Let us wait to see if this recent injury has turned Massa into a more daring driver or an insufferable source of embarrassment for his employer.


As a Massa supporter I have to agree with you. His personality changed. He seems to have injured that part of the brain that filters what one say. He's not thinking of the consequences anymore. The brazilian press have noticed that and is using him to cause sensation. It's quite sickening.

#333 jesee

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 14:43

As a Massa supporter I have to agree with you. His personality changed. He seems to have injured that part of the brain that filters what one say. He's not thinking of the consequences anymore. The brazilian press have noticed that and is using him to cause sensation. It's quite sickening.


I agree. Iam a fan of Massa especially after his humility in Brazil 2008, but these statements do not endear him well at all. There is no need for a driver to degrade another driver especially after his WDC. We all have our thoughts, but iam no fan of somebody who degrades somebodys hard work. Button might not be my cup of tea for a driver but as a reigning WDC, he deserves some respect.

Edited by jesee, 21 November 2009 - 14:44.


#334 CoolFiltered

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 15:04

I agree. Iam a fan of Massa especially after his humility in Brazil 2008, but these statements do not endear him well at all. There is no need for a driver to degrade another driver especially after his WDC. We all have our thoughts, but iam no fan of somebody who degrades somebodys hard work. Button might not be my cup of tea for a driver but as a reigning WDC, he deserves some respect.


I couldn't agree more, although I dislike intensely the "robots" who trot out the same old answers, they're basically being asked the same old questions, but, to criticise another driver is just bad form, and uncalled for.


#335 DFV

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 15:29

I couldn't agree more, although I dislike intensely the "robots" who trot out the same old answers, they're basically being asked the same old questions, but, to criticise another driver is just bad form, and uncalled for.


In my opinion, Massa's statements tells more about him than they do about the people he degrades.

#336 BMW_F1

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 15:32

After Massa wins a Formula 1 world drivers championships he can have an opinion, until then he should keep his opinions on world champions to himself.

why?

#337 BMW_F1

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 15:33

Button saying "Massa is the lesser WDC contender" has more value than Massa saying "Button is the lesser WDC beholder".


the first one is debatable and the second is absolutely true.

#338 BMW_F1

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 15:38

Regardless of how each of us value his statement, Massa's recent comments are in line with previous behavior but, IMO, the range of his statements has become a tad wider.

In my opinion it is disrespectful to qualify as "weaker than" a fellow driver who has just become World Champion, just as it is disrespectful to say that your team mate must have been involved in crash-gate when the World Motor Sport Council has just cleared him of any wrong doing.

These are opinions that any of us are allowed in this forum, but that most of us would think twice before repeating them in front of a microphone and a TV crew. If on top of this you add that you have public relations responsibilities to your employer, Massa's statement appears even more out of accepted range of behavior.

Increased range of emotions and disinhibition are a part of frontal lobe damage. This is not really worrying as people around brain-injured individuals can adjust to it. But impairment of complex-decision making and multi-tasking can go in hand.

Let us wait to see if this recent injury has turned Massa into a more daring driver or an insufferable source of embarrassment for his employer.


I am actaully getting tired of these type of posts. Massa is simply frank , that is his personality trait. You wont change that... Some people don't like it and some people think it is not a big deal.
Can you please post something reasonable which illustrates why what he said is wrong and how it would affect him besides the tyical emotional crap you and others have been writing.

#339 CoolFiltered

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 15:59

In my opinion, Massa's statements tells more about him than they do about the people he degrades.


:up: I think Massa has altered a bit over the last 18/24 months, the humility he displayed when Hamilton won the wdc was humbling, and appeared genuine, and its difficult to reconcile that moment, with comments such as these latest ones, I think we may see more of this "bitterness" (for want of a better word) next season, which would be a shame, as he seemed to have a really friendly and likeable character.


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#340 pippin

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 16:03

I don't really care what Massa said. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and it actually changes nothing anyway. Jenson is still WDC this year. The article I read didn't actually use the phrase 'Button is the weakest active champion'. What does that mean anyway? weak mentally?, less talented? Who care's anyway, Jenson joined an elite band of men. Lets see if Massa can do the same.

#341 WebBerK

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 16:15

Regardless of how each of us value his statement, Massa's recent comments are in line with previous behavior but, IMO, the range of his statements has become a tad wider.

In my opinion it is disrespectful to qualify as "weaker than" a fellow driver who has just become World Champion, just as it is disrespectful to say that your team mate must have been involved in crash-gate when the World Motor Sport Council has just cleared him of any wrong doing.

These are opinions that any of us are allowed in this forum, but that most of us would think twice before repeating them in front of a microphone and a TV crew. If on top of this you add that you have public relations responsibilities to your employer, Massa's statement appears even more out of accepted range of behavior.

Increased range of emotions and disinhibition are a part of frontal lobe damage. This is not really worrying as people around brain-injured individuals can adjust to it. But impairment of complex-decision making and multi-tasking can go in hand.

Let us wait to see if this recent injury has turned Massa into a more daring driver or an insufferable source of embarrassment for his employer.

The problem is the despising behaviour of Galvao Bueno, the Walker Murray of Globo TV.
He is just drooling on Massa, saying that he is "among the best all time" and setting the pace of the local fanatism towards Massa.
And Massa is believing it. :eek:
When he has his accident, it all got worse, he had a massive and genuine support all over from Brazil and he thinks he's a super star.
It's unbelievable how he blames Piquet for not being WDC in 2008. To him, the Singaporegate was the only reason. Massa didn't fail in 17 races, he was stolen.

But yet, the is the #2 at Ferrari.

#342 meat

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 18:37

The way i see it, Massa should earn his "stripes" before throwing shit around :down:
And before you start, beating Kimi 2008 just isnt´t enough.
Last three years, he is maybe the most improved driver of the grid,but still...Be a WDC first, then you have earned right to throw shit around.
I still believe he is never gonna be a WDC,he just haven´t got what it takes(IMO)...
Go on Felipe baby, continue like this and even Ferrari will get bored with you and your trashing :down: Ferrari already has their eye on Vettel.

Edited by meat, 21 November 2009 - 18:39.


#343 GIBF1

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 18:47

less talented


As a JB fan i'll admit out of Lewis,Fernando and Kimi he's probaly the least gifted talent

But it's how you maximize that talent and Jenson is starting to do that

If Kimi is finished in F1 he definitley didn't maximize his talent IMO

#344 meat

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 18:54

As a JB fan i'll admit out of Lewis,Fernando and Kimi he's probaly the least gifted talent

But it's how you maximize that talent and Jenson is starting to do that

If Kimi is finished in F1 he definitley didn't maximize his talent IMO


I disagree. He just got lucky with the Brawn cars.

#345 GIBF1

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 18:56

I disagree. He just got lucky with the Brawn cars.


I disagree with you, but that's what forums are for :up:

We'll see just how lucky he was next year

Edited by GIBF1, 21 November 2009 - 18:57.


#346 cardin

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 20:25

The way i see it, Massa should earn his "stripes" before throwing shit around :down:
And before you start, beating Kimi 2008 just isnt´t enough.
Last three years, he is maybe the most improved driver of the grid,but still...Be a WDC first, then you have earned right to throw shit around.
I still believe he is never gonna be a WDC,he just haven´t got what it takes(IMO)...
Go on Felipe baby, continue like this and even Ferrari will get bored with you and your trashing :down: Ferrari already has their eye on Vettel.


That's just silly. I agree he shouldn't be saying stuff like that, it's just tacky, but to say he's not qualified to say it is just silly. I also don't agree with what he's saying. I think Kimi in 2007 was the luckiest and most undesrving champion of the last few years.

#347 WebBerK

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 20:55

Massa was the only one to spend years in the Ferrari Academy, receiving lessons from the master Schumacher.
Massa had three years with clearly WDC capable cars, from 2005-2008, but still not capable of putting everything together to clinch the title.

#348 P123

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 21:57

I disagree. He just got lucky with the Brawn cars.


Rubens had the same car, yet wasn't able to match what Button did with it. Vettel and Webber also had race winning cars yet were unable to match what Button did. Whether he is lucky or not to have a car as competitive as the Brawn (somebody has to have the pace setting car, why not Button?) doesn't take away from the fact that he is a deserving WDC. He could have the luxury a half season wobble and still they couldn't catch him such was his dominance of the early races.

Massa may be correct in that he isn't quite in the same class as the other three champions, but he is still a deserving champion.

#349 overmatik

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 22:01

I don't like Massa, but he said the truth. Hamilton, Alonso and Kimi are the 3 top drivers in F1.

Too bad 2010 won't probably have Kimi, as it's shaping to be a sensational season!

#350 Atticus

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 22:11

This is the strangest thread. BB's have become just like mainstream media with sensationalist thread titles!

for the record,
Weaker is the comparative form of the adjective Weak
Better is the comparative form of the adjective good.

Now if the thread starter's translation skills are the better than his/her thread titling skills; then my understanding of what Massa said is Button is GOOD but Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi are "BETTER". Nothing earth-shattering.
But then again that would only have generated 1 page of responses.

Now if I behave like most here and choose to only read the title I would be really mad, because, my understanding would be that all the active champions are WEAK and Button is the WEAKEST!!! imagine the pages.......
Anyway as you were..

Edited by Atticus, 21 November 2009 - 22:14.