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Robert Kubica thread.


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#1 stonebutter

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 12:15

So I'm not really sure how this works or whatever - but apparently Toni Cuquerella has gone to become Technical Director for Campos Meta which means he won't be RE for kubica next year at renault. I know there was some speculation or whatever. Does anybody know what the protocol usually is? Does the RE usually follow their driver around? I mean will Shovlin follow button to Mclaren?

Any word on who Kubica's new RE will be?

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#2 postajegenye

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 12:24

No, engineers usually don't follow drivers.

#3 Lord_Shaitan

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 12:32

Kubica probaly has uncertain future right now, so at the moment we can't say anything about his RE. We don't even know on 100% that he will drive for Renault...

#4 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 12:37

Exactly. Kubica has a sticky problem right now. On one hand he's got a contract, on the other he might not have a team at all! It's a shame because if he was on the market right now I think he'd be on Mercedes list, near the top, below Kimi (and MS ;) ).

#5 stonebutter

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 13:01

Yeah I can't seem to find any articles on that - he seems not to be too worried. He's just rallying. It's a shame I think him and Nico would be a good pairing.

#6 Lord_Shaitan

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 13:08

Mercedes Gp won't be hurry to find second driver as far as I know. Kubica might be still option for them and they just wait for Renault next step. Let's just wait and we'll see what happens to Kubica, Renault and 2nd Mercedes seat.

#7 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 13:19

Yeah tbh it's only prudent of Merc to see what happens to Renault, some of the recent noises from Renault suggest Kubica could be a free agent soon (even a selling of the team could trigger a break clause). A Renault annoucement would likely come over the next 1-3 weeks, so what's the hurry for Mercedes? None. Ross Brawn, Haug and Kubica get along well from what I've read and they were talking prior to Kubica's Renault move, so if Renault fold I'm willing to bet he will end up there.

#8 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 17:21

Interesting tidbit from the Kimi thread:

http://www.ts.fi/f1/uutiset/90961.html

Heikki Kulta does not think that Kimi is in negotiations for the Mercedes seat anymore,
he believes it's between Kubica and Heidfeld, and that Mercedes will wait until December
when Renault decides about it's future in F1.


I think it's all going to come down to what Renault do, and the latest indications on them are not very encouraging.

Hence methinks Kubica to Merc.

Edit: Article as translated:

Mercedes expects to Renault news
Turun Sanomat 24.11 2009 18:16:04

According to Turun Sanomat, Mercedes has taken a time-out jockey and wait for the choices until December, to decide what the Renault F1 team, the future of a special session of the Executive Board. Pariisilaislähteiden the withdrawal of the pressure has increased.

Whilst Ross Brawn is not enthusiastic about the idea of hiring Nick Heidfeld and Rosberg friend Mercedes team sports director Norbert Haug says to expect a surprise choice as well as non-German driver duo, is apparently in sight, Robert Kubica, who is already in the Grand Prix winner and World Series hard names.

Kubica took the October one-year contract with Renault, when he was released from the mortgage for the BMW Sauber team's withdrawal from the series.

Edited by CaptainJackSparrow, 24 November 2009 - 17:26.


#9 Sarhan

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 17:28

I really believe he gets a drive next season. Would be such a waste if he doesn't...



#10 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 17:34

Kubica will get a drive next year because he is well respected by the teams and unquestionably hungry for the success. He'll get a drive in front of people like de la Rosa, Sutil, Grosjean and Alguesari IMO. Not to denigrate those drivers who were good enough to get their chance, but I think Kubica will just be higher up the wish list for most teams.

#11 stonebutter

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 18:31

I would give anything to see how he stacks up to rosberg.

#12 Muppetmad

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 19:04

It seems the rest of this silly season revolves around Toyota's possible fine for breaking the Concorde agreement... if Toyota don't get a fine, Renault will most likely leave which will leave Kubica with an opportunity to go to Mercedes, and then every other slot can be filled in. If Toyota do get a fine, then Renault will probably stay, Heidfeld will probably go to Mercedes, and then every other slot can be filled in.

I don't know whether I want Renault to quit or not... I'm not holding my breath that the Renault will be good, but equally I would rather Robert was driving a poor car than not driving at all.

The ideal situation in all of this is that Renault get taken over, Robert is allowed to renegotiate and then can try to get a drive for Mercedes, but can fall back on the Renault takeover team if necessary.

#13 JSDSKI

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 19:53

Another possibility is Renault accepting some cash from Mercedes in exchange for Kubica's contract.

Perhaps if/when they sell a stake in the team?

Edited by JSDSKI, 24 November 2009 - 19:59.


#14 maccaFTW

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 20:12

I'm pretty sure of one thing;

Rosberg does not want to see Kubica as his teammate.

#15 f1seb

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 20:14

I'm pretty sure of one thing;

Rosberg does not want to see Kubica as his teammate.


Why not?

#16 ex Rhodie racer 2

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 20:17

With all due respect, but why would Robert K be preferred in any team before Nick Heidfeld? In the three years they have been together, Nick has outscored Kubica by 140 to 131 points, and twice finishing in front of him in the drivers standings.
Kubica may have won a race whereas Nick hasn´t, but the circumstances surrounding that win were questionable in that it´s contended by many (myself included) that Nick was forced to let his team mate take the victory in order to ensure a double victory for the team. The pit lane incident also played a big part in the final outcome, so I wouldn´t place too much importance on that one race.
The record shows, Heidfeld is the better and more consistant racer. Isn´t that what a team needs if they want to secure the constructors title?

#17 f1seb

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 20:21

With all due respect, but why would Robert K be preferred in any team before Nick Heidfeld? In the three years they have been together, Nick has outscored Kubica by 140 to 131 points, and twice finishing in front of him in the drivers standings.
Kubica may have won a race whereas Nick hasn´t, but the circumstances surrounding that win were questionable in that it´s contended by many (myself included) that Nick was forced to let his team mate take the victory in order to ensure a double victory for the team. The pit lane incident also played a big part in the final outcome, so I wouldn´t place too much importance on that one race.
The record shows, Heidfeld is the better and more consistant racer. Isn´t that what a team needs if they want to secure the constructors title?



Your opinion and the statistical record you mention is open to being dissected and argued till no end. And it has been in other threads.

#18 Sarhan

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 20:28

With all due respect, but why would Robert K be preferred in any team before Nick Heidfeld? In the three years they have been together, Nick has outscored Kubica by 140 to 131 points, and twice finishing in front of him in the drivers standings.
Kubica may have won a race whereas Nick hasn´t, but the circumstances surrounding that win were questionable in that it´s contended by many (myself included) that Nick was forced to let his team mate take the victory in order to ensure a double victory for the team. The pit lane incident also played a big part in the final outcome, so I wouldn´t place too much importance on that one race.
The record shows, Heidfeld is the better and more consistant racer. Isn´t that what a team needs if they want to secure the constructors title?


This is what you see when you look at the points no deeper. You obviously didn't follow Kubica's career in F1 too close. Fortunately for RK team bosses can see his potential and look further than just looking at the points. And he's a much younger driver, his peak is clearly yet to come.



#19 Walsingham

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 20:34

With all due respect, but why would Robert K be preferred in any team before Nick Heidfeld?


It looks like all of them preferes Kubica: drivers ranking by team bosses

The only rational answer would be: they are morons and they dont know how to run their bussiness.

Or maybe for the same reason McLaren chose Raikkonen rather then Heidfeld who beaten him, and Ferrari hired Massa rather than Nick who outscored him.

Edited by Walsingham, 24 November 2009 - 20:44.


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#20 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 20:53

Here's a peek into next year guys;)

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#21 metz

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 21:14

With all due respect, but why would Robert K be preferred in any team before Nick Heidfeld? In the three years they have been together, Nick has outscored Kubica by 140 to 131 points, and twice finishing in front of him in the drivers standings.
Kubica may have won a race whereas Nick hasn´t, but the circumstances surrounding that win were questionable in that it´s contended by many (myself included) that Nick was forced to let his team mate take the victory in order to ensure a double victory for the team. The pit lane incident also played a big part in the final outcome, so I wouldn´t place too much importance on that one race.
The record shows, Heidfeld is the better and more consistant racer. Isn´t that what a team needs if they want to secure the constructors title?

They are evenly matched. with different strengths and weaknesses.
But Robert will get the nod at Mercedes because they already have a Nico Rosberg and all 4 at Mercedes/Brawn have said that they DO NOT WANT to have 2 German drivers.

#22 Sarhan

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 21:23

Here's a peek into next year guys;)

Posted Image


I'll say it again: nice trick with darkening the BMW car  ;)




#23 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 21:31

I'll say it again: nice trick with darkening the BMW car ;)


Thanks, it would have been a lot easier if it was coloured and you could just pull the saturation out of it:P

#24 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 21:42

They are evenly matched. with different strengths and weaknesses.
But Robert will get the nod at Mercedes because they already have a Nico Rosberg and all 4 at Mercedes/Brawn have said that they DO NOT WANT to have 2 German drivers.

They've said that two German drivers is not important to them, which isn't really the same.

#25 metz

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 21:45

They've said that two German drivers is not important to them, which isn't really the same.

You are completely wrong.
They specificly said they would NOT WANT 2 Germans.
Now, It's still possible of course but it's not what they want.

#26 stonebutter

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 21:52

I don't see how RK's manager isn't pushing renault for an answer - this whole ambiguous "we may be in f1 next season" has to be some type of breach of contract.

#27 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 22:14

You are completely wrong.
They specificly said they would NOT WANT 2 Germans.
Now, It's still possible of course but it's not what they want.

It's your quotes metz.

Fry also backed away from speculation that, with Nico Rosberg almost certain to race with Mercedes GP in 2010, the Stuttgart carmaker is pushing for another German to be his teammate.
"I can confidently say that that is totally incorrect," Fry said. "Clearly a German driver would be nice for them (Mercedes) but we don't need two German drivers, that's not the intent."
Mercedes' Norbert Haug confirmed: "We definitely do not want to have a pure German team. It's an international team and we want to have the best drivers in the car."
Daimler chairman Dieter Zetsche said Mercedes would not "dictate" the identity of the lineup to team boss Ross Brawn.
"We will talk and listen to what he wants to do and typically agree," he said.

None of those quotes preclude having two German drivers if they are the best available to them.

#28 ForeverF1

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 22:18

Isn't Robert Kubica a Pole?

#29 barteks

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 22:26

So I'm not really sure how this works or whatever - but apparently Toni Cuquerella has gone to become Technical Director for Campos Meta which means he won't be RE for kubica next year at renault. I know there was some speculation or whatever. Does anybody know what the protocol usually is? Does the RE usually follow their driver around? I mean will Shovlin follow button to Mclaren?

Any word on who Kubica's new RE will be?

Is it a thread on Kubica or on his RE? :cat:

Edited by barteks, 24 November 2009 - 22:26.


#30 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 22:30

It's your quotes metz.

None of those quotes preclude having two German drivers if they are the best available to them.


I don't know that seems pretty clear cut from Haug there in particular, but of course they could do anything.

Still, worth noting that Haug and Kubica are on mondo good terms, so you can bet that Kubica is on Haug's mind.

#31 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 22:36

I don't know that seems pretty clear cut from Haug there in particular, but of course they could do anything.

Haug is saying that it's not about being German but being the best. i.e. if the best happens to be German, they'll take him but that's not what they are gunning for.

#32 uzi

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 22:36

Over rated Kubica! He better stay at Renault with Heikki.. both of them fit well

#33 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 22:42

Haug is saying that it's not about being German but being the best. i.e. if the best happens to be German, they'll take him but that's not what they are gunning for.


But he says 'we definitely do not want a pure German racing team', which is a clear reference to the drivers. I read his second statement then as meaning to reinforce this ie 'we want the best driver based on ability, not based on nationality (ie being Germans)'.

But who knows, I don't know the inner workings of his mind, but that's how I read it.

Edited by CaptainJackSparrow, 24 November 2009 - 22:44.


#34 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 22:49

Well, we don't need to agree since the quote is reasonably ambiguous. I took the second part as a qualification of the first rather than reinforcement simply because any team will take the best available to them. I cannot at all imagine Mercedes turning Michael Schumacher or Vettel away if he was on offer.

It's certainly not the unequivocal statement that some believe it to be.

#35 Bouncing Pink Ball

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 23:59

I think I'm interpreting the quote the same way as Buttoneer; the Mercedes driver line up isn't pre-determined by nationality. They aren't about becoming a "pure German team" but rather plan to hire the best of the available options, be they German or otherwise. I could be way off on this but that's how it reads to me.

As far as Kubica's potential place with the team goes, seeing as how Mercedes are taking their time it could be that they are considering him as potentially available pending a decision by Renault. I hope, for his sake, that they are. It'd be a shame if he was driveless or left scrambling for options come 2010 should Renault leave.



#36 metz

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 13:39

Well, to me

Fry said. "Clearly a German driver would be nice for them (Mercedes) but we don't need two German drivers, that's not the intent."

Norbert Haug confirmed: "We definitely do not want to have a pure German team.


...means just that.

I DO agree that this is not what they should do. They should get the best drivers available.

Of note is the fact that McLaren are proud to have 2 Brits and Mercedes is going out of it's way not to have 2 Germans.
Misplaced sensitivities?

#37 korzeniow

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 14:02

For me it would be great: Brawn signing Koobitza is a dream!

But it won't happen and Reno will stay in F1 that good too. As he will be there a lider :) Renault showed that they can make progres.

Win win siutation. From good to better.

#38 Rinehart

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 14:08

I rate Kubica ahead of Heidfeld. I don't really care what the statistics say. Kubica just seems to be better.

#39 alecc

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 14:24

For me it would be great: Brawn signing Koobitza is a dream!

But it won't happen and Reno will stay in F1 that good too. As he will be there a lider :) Renault showed that they can make progres.

Win win siutation. From good to better.


Renault showed progress last time over 3 years ago, 3 years! And then there was the michelin case, since then what they are showing? I see nothing at all, maybe besides Japan 2008. But that's one race, one race!
I see Renault behind Ferrari, McLaren, MercGP and RedBull, and if they additionally make budget cuting in terms of "let the 2010 season be fast behind us, that we can pull out" then it will be really really hard for KUB and the team.

But! For me, if we look at the indirect evidences, it look like QB in MercGP is pretty probable,

from side of merc I quote Stuko from the Merc thread:

Haugh: "No Schumy" (Kaiser out)
Fry: "No 100% german line up" (QuckNick and Sutl out)
Ross: "No young driver" (Kobayashi or any rookie out), "No expensive driver, less money than McLaren"(Kimi out)

+ "2nd driver before Xmas" (waiting for Kubica)


from Renault side:
-Pretty sure 2nd driver Glock signs with Manor
-Any rumours about the 2nd seat suddenly stopped
-Williams taking cossies
-Not signing with RedBull the engine deal
-Ghosn's comments
-0 statesments or comments from Kubica for a pretty long time

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#40 apoka

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 14:29

Well, to me

Fry said. "Clearly a German driver would be nice for them (Mercedes) but we don't need two German drivers, that's not the intent."

Norbert Haug confirmed: "We definitely do not want to have a pure German team.


...means just that.

I DO agree that this is not what they should do. They should get the best drivers available.

Of note is the fact that McLaren are proud to have 2 Brits and Mercedes is going out of it's way not to have 2 Germans.
Misplaced sensitivities?


Yes, that's a strange situation. If Kubica is available, they will probably sign him instead of Heidfeld. That action itself would be reasonable (although I prefer Heidfeld), but if they are just doing it for the reason not to sign another German driver, they will drop in my popularity scale.

Apart from all politics, it would really be a shame if excellent drivers like Kubica or Heidfeld are not on the grid next year.


#41 alecc

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 14:54

Apart from all politics, it would really be a shame if excellent drivers like Kubica or Heidfeld are not on the grid next year.


For me it would be a shame if both of them don't get at least a top5 car, and it looks like only one of them get it next year :/


#42 grunge

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 15:12

kubica is going to be terrific i feel in the coming years..the only thing with him that goes aganst him is that he perhaps has a very ''narrow'' window when it comes to what he wants in a car..he is the extreme understeer driver who absolutely needs his rear end to stick to the track when he turns in.any slide there and hes in trouble because his aggressive potentially exagerrates any little oversteer that he encounters

his style is typically ''no nonsense''..spends minimal time in the ''transition'' zone b/w braking and re application of throttle ...as mark highes put it..it’s very different from the flowing elegance of Hamilton or the sympathetic synchronisation of Raikkonen, but with a car that will accept it, it’s devastatingly fast

on a side note,i dont know how bmw managed these two guys for so many seasons as heidfeld for what ive read prefers an OS car..most probably the reason he struggled with tire heating issues in 08 as an US car takes a lot longer to warm up its tires.

kubica signs with a big team,gets what he likes in a car,hes going to one to look out for i reckon

Edited by grunge, 25 November 2009 - 15:13.


#43 bankoq

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 17:21

I have similar impression. And I think modern Fomula 1 doesn't suit Robert's driving style, but if he gets what he needs from the car he might be devastatingly fast as Hughes claims. People say that Alonso is also very aggressive but by my understanding and from what I've read Kubica is one level beyond that. Very entartaining because of that also.

But I don't know whether current generation of tires and cars' characteristics will allow him to show his full potential :|

on a side note,i dont know how bmw managed these two guys for so many seasons as heidfeld for what ive read prefers an OS car..most probably the reason he struggled with tire heating issues in 08 as an US car takes a lot longer to warm up its tires.


Actually they didn't manage them well. That's why so often they drove similar setups and one guy was fast and the other one struggled. That's also why they had those strange off days.

Edited by bankoq, 25 November 2009 - 17:24.


#44 ex Rhodie racer 2

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 16:56

You are completely wrong.
They specificly said they would NOT WANT 2 Germans.
Now, It's still possible of course but it's not what they want.

The day after that was reported in autosport, I saw fattie Haug being interviewed on German TV, and he was asked whether NH would be joining the team, and his reply was, "we are working on it". He never said anything about not having two German driver at all. Now, I had also read the autosport report, so I was mildly taken aback.
I´m convinced Nick will get the drive, and deservedly so IMO. So why haven´t they announce it yet, I hear you ask? Mmmm, good question, but it could be for any one of a dozen reasons, not all of them pointing at someone other than Nick.
If he is overlooked I for one will be very, very disappointed. I know Kubica fans want their man in this seat, but he just isn´t as deserving IMO. Sorry, but thats the way I see it.

#45 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 17:34

Interesting:

Mercedes after Kubica
I presume Robert Kubica’s life at the Rally du Var is going to be hell after P1Mag exclusively (Ok, we’ll use that ugly word for once) revealed MercedesGP is looking to sign the polish driver for 2010 and beyond.

http://grandprixinsider.wordpress.com/


#46 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 18:40

Wow:

http://www.p1mag.de

"A usually very credible source told me that the Zetsche- Schumacher-Brawn meeting in Abu Dhabi was actually about something, or someone else: Robert Kubica!"

"Mercedes GP is interested to sign him, but for longer than just one season, unlike the Renault deal. Here's where Ferrari comes into play as they have already secured Kubica's services to replace Massa in 2011 Zetsche and Brawn chose to poke Schumacher about the existing bilateral arrangement between Kubica and Ferrari and if there was any chance Ferrari dropping this option."

"They're waiting on Renault's announcement. And it's unlikely the French car-maker will find the 30 million Euro funding they're looking for on time. And then it's upon Ferrari to react. Only if all of this doesn't pan out, Mercedes is willing to move on in their list past Kubica's name on the top of the sheet."

Edited by CaptainJackSparrow, 26 November 2009 - 20:52.


#47 barteks

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 19:34

"Mercedes GP is interested to sign him, but for longer than just one season, unlike the Renault deal. Here's where Ferrari comes into play as they have already secured Kubica's services to replace Massa in 2011 Zetsche and Brawn chose to poke Schumacher about the existing bilateral arrangement between Kubica and Ferrari and if there was any chance Ferrari dropping this option."


:eek:

Ferrari & Mercedes fighting for Kubica :smoking:

Edited by barteks, 26 November 2009 - 19:37.


#48 HMV

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 19:38

Soo, we should all be sticking pins into Renault's vodoo dolly, or what?

#49 Buttoneer

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 19:45

No because F1 is better for having Renault in it than without.

#50 santori

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 19:54

Well, to me

Fry said. "Clearly a German driver would be nice for them (Mercedes) but we don't need two German drivers, that's not the intent."

Norbert Haug confirmed: "We definitely do not want to have a pure German team.



Norbert's words were also reported as "We definitely do not want to have the pure German team". But either way I understood it as meaning that they aren't aiming to be 'the German team', not that their drivers might not turn out to both be German.

I hope Robert stays at a resurgent Renault. I don't want F1 to lose another top seat (and I think Renault can be a top seat).

Also, I like the team and I like the driver so it's a pretty good combination for me. And I want Nick to have a top seat, too. And I suppose the only way Robert will take the Mercedes seat is if the Renault isn't a top seat so the only way for both of them to have a top seat is for Renault to stay in F1 and Robert to stay with Renault. Then it's top seats all round and uncork the Moët.

p.s. I doubt Ferrari has plans to get rid of Massa for 2011. They'll have their eye on possible replacements in case he doesn't regain his old form, though.