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DTM: "We're not even pretending to be a touring car series anymore..."


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#1 Risil

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 16:58

DTM and Super GT to hook up?

I suspect this could be one of the biggest stories in recent years. BMW's M3 GT programme, with relatively minor modifications, would be able to run entries in nearly every major sportscar series in the world. With DTM, ALMS, LMES and Japanese SuperGT all converging into a semi-homogeneous regulatory lump, could we see a revival of the World Sportscar/IMSA GTP boom of the 1980s? Is this an alternative to the somewhat chilling 'world engine' proposals? And given the concerted manufacturer pull-out in F1, and their continuing non-interest in Indy racing, is this a realignment of the balance of power between motorsports categories?

I'm sure Bernie's watching... ;)

Edited by Risil, 04 December 2009 - 16:58.


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#2 kaivo

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 17:05

Good news

#3 juicy sushi

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 17:13

DTM and Super GT to hook up?

I suspect this could be one of the biggest stories in recent years. BMW's M3 GT programme, with relatively minor modifications, would be able to run entries in nearly every major sportscar series in the world. With DTM, ALMS, LMES and Japanese SuperGT all converging into a semi-homogeneous regulatory lump, could we see a revival of the World Sportscar/IMSA GTP boom of the 1980s? Is this an alternative to the somewhat chilling 'world engine' proposals? And given the concerted manufacturer pull-out in F1, and their continuing non-interest in Indy racing, is this a realignment of the balance of power between motorsports categories?

I'm sure Bernie's watching...;)

The BMW M3 GTR would not be able to enter at all. They'd require a new car from scratch, as it would be hopelessly uncompetitive in either series (there is a very big gulf between a production based GT car and a silhouette machine built from scratch).

It might breath some life into both series, but I do have to wonder how likely it is to get off the ground, as it would be difficult to get the sedan bodies in the DTM competitive with the cars in SuperGT, even if they all were using similar monocoque chassis...

#4 Risil

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 18:45

The BMW M3 GTR would not be able to enter at all. They'd require a new car from scratch, as it would be hopelessly uncompetitive in either series (there is a very big gulf between a production based GT car and a silhouette machine built from scratch).

It might breath some life into both series, but I do have to wonder how likely it is to get off the ground, as it would be difficult to get the sedan bodies in the DTM competitive with the cars in SuperGT, even if they all were using similar monocoque chassis...


Yeah, I'm not sure what BMW's exact plan would be, as regulations stand in either series, BMW would have to build a totally new chassis. On the other hand, this is a long-term thing, I imagine Theissen's after a silhouette-GT class running in DTM, SuperGT and ACO-sanctioned events circa 2012. If they can get Daytona to come to the table, even better.

#5 juicy sushi

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 19:04

Yeah, I'm not sure what BMW's exact plan would be, as regulations stand in either series, BMW would have to build a totally new chassis. On the other hand, this is a long-term thing, I imagine Theissen's after a silhouette-GT class running in DTM, SuperGT and ACO-sanctioned events circa 2012. If they can get Daytona to come to the table, even better.

Daytona wouldn't come in. They like their stocks cars just the way they are, and Grand-Am is aimed at privateers and gentlemen drivers with more money than talent (it's also undergoing a semi-collapse).

BMW wanted a production-based GT series, and this would be completely the opposite of that, so I'm not sure how his quotes really matched the content of the article. Also, the ACO do not want silhouettes, they want prototypes under their rules, and have no intention of playing along with other organizations either, so I can't see this happening for them.

I could see the DTM and SuperGT linking, if the DTM were willing to just wholesale adopt SuperGT rules, but I don't know how eager they would be to do that. The series seems to be pretty popular in Germany, and tossing out the saloons for something else might not fit with the image they want.

Also, they seemed to want some form of cost control, and SuperGT features absolutely none of that (which is a problem within the series as well)...

#6 kaivo

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 14:09

DTM (GER) and SUPER GT (JPN) continue developing a common rulebook

At that time they brought a DTM car to do some tests together with the SUPER GT concluding the Japanese cars were around 7 seconds faster than the German ones.



#7 alfista

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 15:00

DTM (GER) and SUPER GT (JPN) continue developing a common rulebook


If they do it properly then it's a good news. "New" DTM has never been proper touring car series, although they pretend it with "four-door" bodies. Organizers have probably realized that it's not a winning formula as they have not managed to lure in additional manufacturers. One can only hope it will not be ITC-like disaster.

Edited by alfista, 19 January 2010 - 22:29.


#8 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 15:13

Daytona wouldn't come in. They like their stocks cars just the way they are, and Grand-Am is aimed at privateers and gentlemen drivers with more money than talent (it's also undergoing a semi-collapse).


Gentlemen drivers? Bourdais, Lamy, Collard, Angelelli, Bergmeister, Briscoe, Dixon, Bouchut, Franchitti, Fittipaldi, Johnson, Hunter-Reay, Dumas, Long, Magnussen, Montoya, Speed, Zonta, etc etc etc...

:confused:

Or when you were discussing Grand Am, you meant the Grand Am Koni Series? Because the Grand Am Rolex series and the Daytona 24 Hours race, has more talented drivers than you can shake a stick at!

#9 jeze

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 15:20

Gentlemen drivers? Bourdais, Lamy, Collard, Angelelli, Bergmeister, Briscoe, Dixon, Bouchut, Franchitti, Fittipaldi, Johnson, Hunter-Reay, Dumas, Long, Magnussen, Montoya, Speed, Zonta, etc etc etc...

:confused:

Or when you were discussing Grand Am, you meant the Grand Am Koni Series? Because the Grand Am Rolex series and the Daytona 24 Hours race, has more talented drivers than you can shake a stick at!


Problem is that outside of Daytona, the Rolex Sports Car Series is a piece of shit. Just a few serious teams, driver changes each and every Sunday, low-class drivers, ugly cars... well you get it. I'd like to see RSCS and ALMS merge, but I know it won't happen. Until then the US sports car racing looks miserable in every area bar ALMS GT2 class (the slowest :eek: )

#10 ivanalesi

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 15:33

Wow, 7 sec. is quite a lot of time. I wonder if it was down just to the tires? The DTM Dunlops are from some weird compound, when they race in the same weekend with F3ES, they're very often faster, but on tests in the past even FR2.0 was faster than DTM cars.

#11 juicy sushi

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 15:51

Gentlemen drivers? Bourdais, Lamy, Collard, Angelelli, Bergmeister, Briscoe, Dixon, Bouchut, Franchitti, Fittipaldi, Johnson, Hunter-Reay, Dumas, Long, Magnussen, Montoya, Speed, Zonta, etc etc etc...

:confused:

Or when you were discussing Grand Am, you meant the Grand Am Koni Series? Because the Grand Am Rolex series and the Daytona 24 Hours race, has more talented drivers than you can shake a stick at!

Yes, but in many cases, who are their co-drivers, and who are those driving at not only Daytona? And who own the cars? It really is mainly for gentlemen drivers, with about 3 competitive fully pro cars running full-time.

#12 juicy sushi

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 15:54

Wow, 7 sec. is quite a lot of time. I wonder if it was down just to the tires? The DTM Dunlops are from some weird compound, when they race in the same weekend with F3ES, they're very often faster, but on tests in the past even FR2.0 was faster than DTM cars.

Possibly, but the Super GT tires are also full out specials since they have a 4 or 5 company tire war going on (Micheline, Bridgestone, Yokohama, Dunlop and Kumho that I recall).

It looks like the DTM are going to go full-bore and run essentially Super GT rules. It makes a limited amount of sense, but I don't know where the money will come from to make it viable, nor how the sedans will be matched up with the coupes, especially with something like the A4 and the new Honda HSV-10 (which isn't even a production car at all, but is literally a front-engined prototype) supposedly running a common lower body according to the rules as described.

#13 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 16:26

Problem is that outside of Daytona, the Rolex Sports Car Series is a piece of shit. Just a few serious teams, driver changes each and every Sunday, low-class drivers, ugly cars... well you get it. I'd like to see RSCS and ALMS merge, but I know it won't happen. Until then the US sports car racing looks miserable in every area bar ALMS GT2 class (the slowest :eek: )


:lol:

Dont hold back any...tell us what you really feel....

I'm sure several of the guys in the series will be most hurt at your views of their driving ability! :cry:



#14 billm99uk

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 17:42

Oh Lord... anything but Grand-Am. Those things are sooooo UGLY! :mad:

#15 Risil

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 17:43

:lol:

Dont hold back any...tell us what you really feel....

I'm sure several of the guys in the series will be most hurt at your views of their driving ability! :cry:



Yeah, but Bill France Jr's crack-smoking 44-year-old nephew wound up 10th in the points.

Obviously guys like Fogarty, Pruett and Bernhard are very talented, but most of the regulars aren't from the top drawer. Arguably, attracting gentleman drivers is the first thing a sportscar series should be doing, but Grand-Am is hardly ushering in a new era of Camel GTP racing.

#16 ivanalesi

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 21:58

It looks like the DTM are going to go full-bore and run essentially Super GT rules. It makes a limited amount of sense, but I don't know where the money will come from to make it viable, nor how the sedans will be matched up with the coupes, especially with something like the A4 and the new Honda HSV-10 (which isn't even a production car at all, but is literally a front-engined prototype) supposedly running a common lower body according to the rules as described.


Yeah, 4 door and coupes in the same championship will be hard. They've got to decide their route. It was very strange to me when Subaru debuted their big GT300 Legacy and at the same time Honda were testing their HSV supercar. Running both types of cars will create lots of controversy, one won't be able to measure the performance advantage of coupes over 4 dour saloons.
When Audi/Merc/Opel went to 4 door saloons, the reason was the much bigger market share of those and it makes a lot of sense. Nissan, Toyota and Honda sell even less coupes, so going to Maxima/Avensis/Accord will make more marketing sense, especially considering Honda actually doesn't sell this model and I guess Toyota/Lexus sell double digit numbers from SC430, also Nissan have the GT1 program already in place for GT-R.

#17 pingu666

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 23:51

grand am cars are ugly, and they sort look like baby lmp cars. you can imagine them saying "when i grow up i want tobe a lmp1 car"

grand am is aimed at the teams who run in the series, entirely different to most other series