33 replies to this topic

[Richard Wood]

I am trying to find information regarding the sponsors of John Hartle mainly through the 1960's. Of particular interest would be Comerfords, Tom Kirby, Charlie Rous, Ray Cowles etc. and did Syd Lawton provide an Aermacchi in 67/68? Also Bill Lacey tuned his machinery in the early 60's so any info regarding him would also be of interest.

[Russell Burrows]

I am trying to find information regarding the sponsors of John Hartle mainly through the 1960's. Of particular interest would be Comerfords, Tom Kirby, Charlie Rous, Ray Cowles etc. and did Syd Lawton provide an Aermacchi in 67/68? Also Bill Lacey tuned his machinery in the early 60's so any info regarding him would also be of interest.

Hi Richard, all long gone of course. Racer Brian Lee worked for Syd around late sixties /early seventies so he might know about the Macchi; Barry Lawton, too if he's contactable. When was John on Kirby's bikes?

[Richard Wood]

Hi Richard, all long gone of course. Racer Brian Lee worked for Syd around late sixties /early seventies so he might know about the Macchi; Barry Lawton, too if he's contactable. When was John on Kirby's bikes?

Hi Russel

As far as I'm aware John rode Tom Kirbys bike at the '67 IOM TT

[fil2.8]

Hi Russel

As far as I'm aware John rode Tom Kirbys bike at the '67 IOM TT

Richard , greetings I have the '67 IOM TT scoresheet in front of me ,
Junior , John # 25 Aermacchi / Metisse
Senior , John # 14 , entered on a Norton , changed to a ' Metisse ' in my handwriting , finishing 6th , cannot recall the entrant , sorry .

Also , his proddy Bonneville at that years ' Hutch 100 ' was entered by ' Scuderia Duke ' , whereas the rest of his rides that day was entered by Charlie Rous --Team Metisse !!!

[GD66]

Hi Russel

As far as I'm aware John rode Tom Kirbys bike at the '67 IOM TT

Don't recall that ever being the case, Richard. Perhaps if you contact John Surtees he may be of some help in clearing this up, he was a close friend of John Hartle's and a big fan as well as a team mate.

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

Now, it might just have been a lovely dream, but I have a feeling I´ve seen a pic smewhere on here of John seated aboard a Kirby machine in the pre race paddock in the IOM. I think Paddy Driver was next to him, also on one of Uncle Tom´s bikes. Could be wrong though.

[Russell Burrows]

[Richard Wood]

Great shot Russell. Would that have been the 1967 Senior TT then, and what engine was in it?

[Russell Burrows]

Great shot Russell. Would that have been the 1967 Senior TT then, and what engine was in it?

Yes Richrad, the 67 Senior on Tom's G50 engined Mettise, rather than the Triumph engined bike that Charlie Rous had a hand in? The bike pictured must be one of Bill Ivy's former bikes, later ridden so well in the Island by Alan Barnett.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 10 December 2009 - 14:48.

[Rennmax]

Yes Richrad, the 67 Senior on Tom's G50 engined Mettise, rather than the Triumph engined bike that Charlie Rous had a hand in? The bike pictured must be one of Bill Ivy's former bikes, later ridden so well in the Island by Alan Barnett.

Hi Russ, possibly the bike he rode on that fateful day at Oliver's mount ?

[knickerbrook]

John rode Ray Cowles's G50 in 1967, when he came third in the world championship (the best of the rest, behind Ago and Hailwood). Although Ray has passed on, Selwyn Griffiths (Ray's right hand man throughout, and still shop manager at Ray Cowles Motorcycles, I believe) should have plenty to tell. In fact, the bike - affectionately called "Old Faithful" - still exists and went on to score several Senior MGP victories.

[Russell Burrows]

Hi Russ, possibly the bike he rode on that fateful day at Oliver's mount ?

Hi Renn, I think he was on Ray Cowles's bike at Scarborogh. To be honest I'm not convinced he actually rode the Kirby bike in the Senior since, like Barry, I thought he was on Ray Cowles's G50 (Mettise)? The shot could be from practice but then with all due respect to Ray's bike, why would he elect to not ride the Kirby bike....dunno. I'll have to try and dig out a mag with a report of the 67TT.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 10 December 2009 - 20:12.

[Richard Wood]

Hi Renn, I think he was on Ray Cowles's bike at Scarborogh. To be honest I'm not convinced he actually rode the Kirby bike in the Senior since, like Barry, I thought he was on Ray Cowles's G50 (Mettise)? The shot could be from practice but then with all due respect to Ray's bike, why would he elect to not ride the Kirby bike....dunno. I'll have to try and dig out a mag with a report of the 67TT.

Good Morning
The information I have suggests that in fact he was on the Ray Cowles G50 at Scarborough, he had worked his way through the field up to 3rd place after being left at the start when the accident happened.

[Rennmax]

Good morning Russ. I assume that your pic was taken during the race, the crowd is probably too big and the sun too high for a practice session ? There is a feature about John in the Classic racer No 106 March/April 2004 which could shed some light. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy. Possibly not of much relevance , but

http://motorsportmem...hp?db=ms&n=1499

states a Metisse as his mount at Scarborough

Edit: IIRC the bike he campaigned normally in '67 was Peel faired and not Metisse framed, so I assume that's the Ray Cowles bike ?

Edited by Rennmax, 11 December 2009 - 09:45.

[Russell Burrows]

Good morning Russ. I assume that your pic was taken during the race, the crowd is probably too big and the sun too high for a practice session ? There is a feature about John in the Classic racer No 106 March/April 2004 which could shed some light. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy. Possibly not of much relevance , but

http://motorsportmem...hp?db=ms&n=1499

states a Metisse as his mount at Scarborough

Edit: IIRC the bike he campaigned normally in '67 was Peel faired and not Metisse framed, so I assume that's the Ray Cowles bike ?

Hi Gents, You are of course correct Renn - far too many shirtless spectators for a practice session. I too remembe seeing pics of the Peel faired G50 but have a feeling this was '67, and for the following year he was on Ray's own Mettise framed bike which was also fitted with the Peel ? This could account for him being on Kirby's Mettise in the TT only, the thinking being that it was a beter proposition....so many questions

I have the mag you mentioned Renn and it doesn't specify what John was on. It does though say the race was a heat.... Richard, as you may be aware, John Blanchard was involved and I think the subsequent inquest determined that the Seeley rider had missed a gear just at the moment John had tucked in very close behind him ?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 11 December 2009 - 13:56.

[knickerbrook]

An intersting debate! I know that Ray had both standard and Mettise-framed G50's at that time, and I believe that out of preference, John used the standard Matchless for his Grand Prix campaigns. Apparently he was on a Mettise on that fateful day at Scarborough, but I don't know who's machine he was riding. I have an incling it was not one of Ray's, but I might be wrong. It's something I have always wondered though.

[Classicpics]

I am trying to find information regarding the sponsors of John Hartle mainly through the 1960's. Of particular interest would be Comerfords, Tom Kirby, Charlie Rous, Ray Cowles etc. and did Syd Lawton provide an Aermacchi in 67/68? Also Bill Lacey tuned his machinery in the early 60's so any info regarding him would also be of interest.

Looking through my April 1st 1962 Mallory programme John was down to ride a 250 Benelli, sponsor Fron Purslow as well as his Comerfords Nortons.

He did not ride at this meeting, I think he was out of action for most of 62.

[Richard Wood]

Looking through my April 1st 1962 Mallory programme John was down to ride a 250 Benelli, sponsor Fron Purslow as well as his Comerfords Nortons.

He did not ride at this meeting, I think he was out of action for most of 62.

As you correctly point out, John was on the sidelines for the majority of 1962 with a broken arm which was reluctant to heal. However, he was involved in a test of the Gilera 500-4 which Geoff Duke demonstrated at the Bob McIntyre memorial meeting. I didn't know about the 250cc Benelli though. Did he manage any racing at all in 1962?

[Rennmax]

As you correctly point out, John was on the sidelines for the majority of 1962 with a broken arm which was reluctant to heal. However, he was involved in a test of the Gilera 500-4 which Geoff Duke demonstrated at the Bob McIntyre memorial meeting. I didn't know about the 250cc Benelli though. Did he manage any racing at all in 1962?

No, according to this source

http://www.ozebook.c...pwin/hartle.htm

[Rennmax]

Hi gents, my pal Rolf who runs this great site

http://www.eggersdorfer.info/

provided me with this shot made at the Sachsenring in '67



Obviously a standard G50 chassis, I think that's the bike John rode in '67 during the whole season, with the exception of his outing on a Kirby-Metisse in the Senior in '67 ?

[knickerbrook]

That's brilliant! This is the first picture I have seen of John Hartle on Ray's G50. Seems it was a very successful partnership (3rd in the 1967 World Championship).
Regarding sponsors, for some reason the name Pratt (Dennis?) is in my mind as being linked to Hartle. Can anyone shed light on this - or is my mind playing tricks again?

[Richard Wood]

Hi gents, my pal Rolf who runs this great site

http://www.eggersdorfer.info/

provided me with this shot made at the Sachsenring in '67



Obviously a standard G50 chassis, I think that's the bike John rode in '67 during the whole season, with the exception of his outing on a Kirby-Metisse in the Senior in '67 ?

Cracking photo. As I'm only a 'youngster' what would be the difference between a standard chassis and the Metisse which he sometimes used?

[knickerbrook]

Whilst I have not ridden either myself, I have been told by those that have, that the Metisse was a very stiff construction that was “like riding on rails”, but somewhat lacking in feedback to the rider, whereas you were able to “feel the road” much better with the standard frame. I remember a similar effect when I switched from a Manx to a Seeley. That’s my understanding, but it would be interesting to hear first-hand from someone who has actually ridden both.

Edited by knickerbrook, 27 December 2009 - 19:50.

[Ray Oldam]

Knickerbrook,

Hi. I didn't ride a Metisse myself, but I was told that compared to the standard Aermacchi, they didn't give you much warning and simply 'let go' when you got past the limit! I think the standard spine frame would flex a little, but the Metisse was quite 'solid'. Mike Trimby may have mentioned it back in the mid seventies - he was riding Yamahas then but I think he had ridden both types of Aermacchi in the past. I am sure I heard the same thing from other people too, and it seemed to be accepted opinion at the time.

All the best.

Ray

[Russell Burrows]

Cracking photo. As I'm only a 'youngster' what would be the difference between a standard chassis and the Metisse which he sometimes used?

The Mettise looked better ! (nickel plated 531 tubing) and perhaps a tad lighter ? Still quite tall though as it was a full loop frame and used 19 inch wheels. I've never ridden one so not able to say. The 7R/ G50 was a beautifully handling bike though. The Mettise wasn't as numerous or successful as the Seeley framed AMC racers. The frame produced for the Macchi was, of course, an entirely different design. Wouldn't mind any one of 'em now though.

Happy New Year, chaps.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 01 January 2010 - 19:17.

[Rennmax]

The Metisse was obviously strong enough to handle the 80 hp of the URS, I think it was a standard frame and not specially made by the Rickmans for that engine



BTW, I think that Rickman never offered complete bikes as Seeley did but only running chassis.
Edit: The tubes were brazed and not welded, were'nt they ?

Edited by Rennmax, 02 January 2010 - 09:20.

[larryd]

Knickerbrook,

Hi. I didn't ride a Metisse myself, but I was told that compared to the standard Aermacchi, they didn't give you much warning and simply 'let go' when you got past the limit! I think the standard spine frame would flex a little, but the Metisse was quite 'solid'. Mike Trimby may have mentioned it back in the mid seventies - he was riding Yamahas then but I think he had ridden both types of Aermacchi in the past. I am sure I heard the same thing from other people too, and it seemed to be accepted opinion at the time.

All the best.

Ray

Hi Ray,

Having ridden both "Aermacchi Aermacchis" and the Metisse variety in what passed, with me, for anger, I always preferred the Metisse. The standard frame always seemed to me to be a bit of a flexy flier, summed up by the advice I once received to use the back brake only to "stiffen the thing up in a fast corner and stop it weaving".

Bloody worked, too!

The Metisse was a lot stiffer - like riding the Forth Bridge. Never let go on me though, but while the roadholding was superb, the handling was diabolical, if you see what I mean.

It was at its best (worst?) going down from Keppel Gate to Kate's in the 70s, when that bit of road was bumpier than the Sulby Straight.

My eyeballs seemed to rotate back into my head, such was the road vibration, and I always had to guess when to tip it in to Kate's . . . . . . . .

My Metisse had Ceriani 35mm forks and a double-sided SLS Seeley brake which, with AM4 green linings, was a magic stopper - who needed a fourleader Fontana!

I always took the link bar off the back brake, using one shoe only - the two-leader was too much brake.

All good fun, even in the wet - MGP Newcomers 1978, Ray!!

God almighty, just realised that was 32 years ago - I'm off to bed!!

[Coupe Kawasaki]

The Metisse was obviously strong enough to handle the 80 hp of the URS, I think it was a standard frame and not specially made by the Rickmans for that engine



BTW, I think that Rickman never offered complete bikes as Seeley did but only running chassis.
Edit: The tubes were brazed and not welded, were'nt they ?

Interesting front brake set up there too!


David

[Ray Oldam]

Hi Larry,

Happy New Year! Thanks for your post, and sorry I missed it - haven't been on here much since Christmas!

I agree with you about the standard Aermacchi - I think you got used to it jumping about, but I had some comments from other riders now and then, saying they had been behind me and it was wriggling around! It improved a lot when I rebuilt all the cycle parts while Francis Beart did the engine - I renewed every bush and bearing in sight, replaced the worn out rear units with the correct length ones, changed the fork oil (what little there was in the first place!) and discovered why the front brake kept locking up!

Initially we thought it just took a bit of getting used to, going from the Ducati brakes to 'real' ones, and I put huge champfers on the leading edge of the linings, trying to make it more progressive. It was just as bad, and after another fall at Snetterton, Dennis had a go on it at Brands and came off in a big way going into Paddock, just missing an unprotected edge of Armco - lucky! When we took it apart I noticed some scoring on the 'fillets' of the hub. It turned out a spacer was missing, and the shoes had worn a 'slot' in the fillets.Not a problem until you put the brake on, then - metal to metal contact on four shoes!! One small spacer, one big problem solved - the front stopper was brilliant after that, but it was a shame I missed it the first time. It sounds like you had your Metisse well sorted. You mentioned Kate's Cottage - oddly enough it's where I often watch the racing when I go back to the Island - I think it's a bit smoother now.

Good idea to take the linkage off the rear - wish I had done that! I think that rear brake was bigger than the front one on my old Ducati (!), and as you say, way too much!! I didn't really use it a lot, but felt the return spring was very feeble, probably about alright for a ball point pen, but not that great big brake, and I think it used to 'servo up' once the shoes made contact. After some rummaging in the parts boxes I found a much stronger thing to replace it, and it snapped the lever back like the jaws of a crocodile!! I was still very wary of it though.

I found some photos of Dennis on his Aermacchis the other day, one taken splashing his way out of Governor's in that soaking 78 Manx. I will put them on the Aermacchi thread when we get another scanner sorted out, and I can track down the photographers.

All the best.

Ray

[larryd]

Hi Ray - I've posted on the Aermacchi thread, with a couple of pics, and look forward to seeing yours!

Cheers

Larry D

I found some photos of Dennis on his Aermacchis the other day, one taken splashing his way out of Governor's in that soaking 78 Manx. I will put them on the Aermacchi thread when we get another scanner sorted out, and I can track down the photographers.

All the best.

Ray

[koratwanderer]

Hi guys,

Forgive me for coming in a bit late on this thread, but I've only just found this excellent forum.

I can certainly help with the OP's question, yes John Hartle did ride Tom Kirby's G50 Metisse in the 1967 Senior TT.

I was one of Alan Barnett's mechanics at the time, but unfortunately Alan damaged his arm shortly before the TT whilst testing a BSA Metisse at Snetterton for the Rickman brothers. Somebody didn't wire lock the gearbox drain plug I believe (not me, I wasn't there!) and the rear tyre got a good coating of oil.

Consequently Tom had a spare bike for the TT and offerred it to John Hartle.

I had my bike booked on the ferry, the hotel was booked, and my time off work was booked, so I decided to go along to IOM anyway and help Tom Kirby's other rider John Taylor, and anyone else who neede a pair of hands.

John Hartle had his own pit crew but he needed someone to man the signalling point at Ramsey, so me and Roy (Alan Barnett's other mechanic) got the job. We had an excellent spot halfway up May Hill, on the left side of the right hand curve facing the riders as they came up the hill, in the garden of two lovely old ladies who provided us with tea and cakes all day, wonderful! We subsequently used that spot for all Alan's later TT rides.

I'm sure I've got some photos of John Hartle taken at that spot, but I'm now living in Thailand and all my old photos are in my daughter's loft back in UK. I'll try and dig them out when I go back for a holiday next month.

Hope that helps
Bill

[fil2.8]

Hi guys,

Forgive me for coming in a bit late on this thread, but I've only just found this excellent forum.

I can certainly help with the OP's question, yes John Hartle did ride Tom Kirby's G50 Metisse in the 1967 Senior TT.

I was one of Alan Barnett's mechanics at the time, but unfortunately Alan damaged his arm shortly before the TT whilst testing a BSA Metisse at Snetterton for the Rickman brothers. Somebody didn't wire lock the gearbox drain plug I believe (not me, I wasn't there!) and the rear tyre got a good coating of oil.

Consequently Tom had a spare bike for the TT and offerred it to John Hartle.

I had my bike booked on the ferry, the hotel was booked, and my time off work was booked, so I decided to go along to IOM anyway and help Tom Kirby's other rider John Taylor, and anyone else who neede a pair of hands.

John Hartle had his own pit crew but he needed someone to man the signalling point at Ramsey, so me and Roy (Alan Barnett's other mechanic) got the job. We had an excellent spot halfway up May Hill, on the left side of the right hand curve facing the riders as they came up the hill, in the garden of two lovely old ladies who provided us with tea and cakes all day, wonderful! We subsequently used that spot for all Alan's later TT rides.

I'm sure I've got some photos of John Hartle taken at that spot, but I'm now living in Thailand and all my old photos are in my daughter's loft back in UK. I'll try and dig them out when I go back for a holiday next month.

Hope that helps
Bill

Hi , Bill , and a warm welcome to the forum , thanks for your great introduction , and we all look forward with glee to future posts and pics if possible , I was in the IOM in 1967 and remember John on the Metisse well , riding # 14 and altered in my prog accordingly , and finishing 6th , behind Fred Stevens 5th on the Hannah-Paton

[terryshep]

I am trying to find information regarding the sponsors of John Hartle mainly through the 1960's. Of particular interest would be Comerfords, Tom Kirby, Charlie Rous, Ray Cowles etc. and did Syd Lawton provide an Aermacchi in 67/68? Also Bill Lacey tuned his machinery in the early 60's so any info regarding him would also be of interest.

Why no mention of Eric Bowers? Dealer of Chapel-en-le Frith, I think. He sponsored John through his very early days and surely deserves a bit of a mention. I can remember him coming up to me at the Manx presentation in '54 or '55 and booming "Two silvers, Terry, not bad eh?" He was really proud of his runner and showed it.

[Richard Wood]

Why no mention of Eric Bowers? Dealer of Chapel-en-le Frith, I think. He sponsored John through his very early days and surely deserves a bit of a mention. I can remember him coming up to me at the Manx presentation in '54 or '55 and booming "Two silvers, Terry, not bad eh?" He was really proud of his runner and showed it.

Hello Terry
Good to hear from you again on the forum.
Yes, Eric Bowers was certainly the man responsible for getting John started and for much of his early career. When I posted this thread on the forum I had not long previously spoken to Eric's son Michael who had given me some background information about Eric etc. However, any information regarding these generous men and articles from this era is very interesting and most welcome.
Best regards
Richard