28 replies to this topic

[alpinemauve]

Does anyone have any photos of the Brands Hatch Section of this Rally for RAC 1960?
Were all cars together or put into their respective classes for a quick belt around the circuit?
It would be great to see a mix of cars on the circuit if anyone can help

[Kevan]

Does anyone have any photos of the Brands Hatch Section of this Rally for RAC 1960?
Were all cars together or put into their respective classes for a quick belt around the circuit?
It would be great to see a mix of cars on the circuit if anyone can help

Based on vague memory of the Castrol(?) film of the 1960 RAC that I've got on VHS, I think it might have been done by class? IIRC, the video shows Carlsson's Saab on track at the same time as the Minis, and I think there's a photo in the Bill Price BMC Competitions Department book showing a starting grid mostly made up of Healeys, TRs and the odd big saloon. Can anyone confirm that or add more detail?

Edited by Kevan, 09 December 2009 - 13:59.

[RS2000]

Based on vague memory of the Castrol(?) film of the 1960 RAC that I've got on VHS, I think it might have been done by class? IIRC, the video shows Carlsson's Saab on track at the same time as the Minis, and I think there's a photo in the Bill Price BMC Competitions Department book showing a starting grid mostly made up of Healeys, TRs and the odd big saloon. Can anyone confirm that or add more detail?

Yes, generally by class. The photo you're thinking of has Healeys, a TR, Jaguar saloon and (probably Group 3 category) Zephyrs....and a Humber Estate tacked on at the back, which I took to be an event officials car until I saw the rally plate.
I think 60 was the year of a massive race across the A25 south of London to reach Brands "finish" control on schedule (they had a rush hour in 1960) and I think the races were the next day.

[RS2000]

Having had a further think, if you are interested in this subject there is probably no better account than that in Marcus Chambers' "Works Wonders" (or "Seven Year Twitch" if you have the early book before its expansion). He states the races were run by classes over the new long GP circuit (was that open in 1960??) and competitors who had failed to finish the road section within the time limit (and were thus official non-finishers) started the races. He includes fairly detailed reports of those races that involved BMC works cars.

Edited by RS2000, 09 December 2009 - 23:07.

[Kevan]

Thanks- I dug the Bill Price book out and found the pic. I'd never really noticed that the Humber was an estate before though! Interesting choice of car for an RAC...

There's a similar pic in Tony Gardiner's book 'RAC Rally Action', showing a slightly more varied lineup- a couple of Anglias, three or four Frogeye Sprites, a couple of Minis, a Citroen ID19, a Simca Aronde and a Triumph Herald.

The text refers to a 'series of races organised by class', and mentions races for GT over 2000cc (Healey-dominated), up to 1000cc, (won by David Seigle-Morris' Mini) and over 2000cc touring cars, dominated by the Jag 3.8 of Jack Sears

Edited by Kevan, 10 December 2009 - 06:48.

[Fred Gallagher]

The programme stated, "Competitors will begin to arrive at Brands Hatch at about 2 p.m. on Friday November 25th....... Competitors will leave their cars overnight......On Saturday they will return to take part in a series of 5 lap races round the new circuit.... These races will be according to classes......."

The Humber number 16 was driven by E.A.Candy, T.Richards and A.E.Werry.

Fred

[Graham Gauld]

I competed on the 1960 RAC Rally with the then Scottish Rally Chamjpion Sandy Morrison in a Triumph Herald and I well remember the debacle that was the Brands Hatch control at the end of the rally. It was sheer lunacy and I remember Sandy and I driving northwards up the A20 to the circuit. Remembe3r we were pretty tired as we had been driving non stop for at least a day and a half. It was about 4-30 in the afternoon and the northward part of a bit of dual carriageway was blocked with traffic and we were on a road section schedule. It was becoming clear that we might not make the control on time and Sandy was desperate. Eventually he had had enough and we noticed that there was little traffic driving southwards so Sandy drove across the grass central reservation and we belted up the dual carriageway on the wrong side. I was so disgusted with this move I dumped the maps on the floor, folded my arms and said to Sandy with an air of pomposity ".....I don't agree with this" and we skipped past the blockage and a few of our fellow rally drivers before diving back to the correrct side. We only had to swerve once for a car coming towards us !
As explained above the cars were kept in parc ferme at Brands Hatch and we were all taken by coach to London to spend the night. We were then coached back to Brands Hatch the next morning for the races. I will see if I can find some of the photos on the event and come back later. We are in the middle of the olive picking season and I have to go out with my French colleagues to pull olives off the trees !

[RS2000]

Any photos from GG would be appreciated. Slightly extending the thread subject, so would a competitor's perspective on the first use of special stages on the RAC. 1960, the second Jack Kemsley-organised RAC, seems to have still been a largely road/navigation event like earlier RACs, with a few short tests (Rest-and-be-Thankful, Bo'ness,Wolvey,Elvington.Mallory, Brands, are mentioned for 1960 in books with Charterhall cancelled by a localised Foot and Mouth outbreak).
Monument Hill (variously described as 2.0 or 2.5 miles), near Dalmally, is recorded as the first ever RAC stage. One of 5.8 miles near Inverkirkaig and 2 more during the Inverness-Inverness loop are mentioned. The perception now is that some were public roads, probably formally closed by simple arrangement with the local authority, but national speed limits did not apply in those days so none of the near-impossible hoops that have to be jumped through today were a problem. Perhaps GG would confirm later whether, at the time, these were considered just another test on that event or whether there was any perception of an entirely new era breaking. Even Stuart Turner, describing Eric Carlsson's win with him, doesn't really recount whether these stages were seen as a really big deal and it is only those writing much later, who weren't there, who claim it was. By 1961 of course, the forests arrived properly.

[Graham Gauld]

OK here are one or two photos showing:

Don Morley (Austin Healey) coming out of the tunnel at Brands Hatch for his race on the Saturday.

Tony Nash, at rear with moustache, surveys the damage to his Triumph Herald

Geoff Mabbs - mentioned on another thread, with his Triumph.

I may point out that my own driver Sandy Morrison ( His brother Logan became a factory BMC driver in Minis and Austin Healeys.) and I in our Triumph Herald were teamed up with Tony Nash and I think Geoff in a Triumph "B" Team as opposed to the works team, though Geoff may have been a factory driver with Tiny Lewis.

Also Erik Carlsson with his Saab at Mallory Park.

[Graham Gauld]

Any photos from GG would be appreciated. Slightly extending the thread subject, so would a competitor's perspective on the first use of special stages on the RAC. 1960, the second Jack Kemsley-organised RAC, seems to have still been a largely road/navigation event like earlier RACs, with a few short tests (Rest-and-be-Thankful, Bo'ness,Wolvey,Elvington.Mallory, Brands, are mentioned for 1960 in books with Charterhall cancelled by a localised Foot and Mouth outbreak).
Monument Hill (variously described as 2.0 or 2.5 miles), near Dalmally, is recorded as the first ever RAC stage. One of 5.8 miles near Inverkirkaig and 2 more during the Inverness-Inverness loop are mentioned. The perception now is that some were public roads, probably formally closed by simple arrangement with the local authority, but national speed limits did not apply in those days so none of the near-impossible hoops that have to be jumped through today were a problem. Perhaps GG would confirm later whether, at the time, these were considered just another test on that event or whether there was any perception of an entirely new era breaking. Even Stuart Turner, describing Eric Carlsson's win with him, doesn't really recount whether these stages were seen as a really big deal and it is only those writing much later, who weren't there, who claim it was. By 1961 of course, the forests arrived properly.

I think Stuart Turner would agree - if he ever reads this stuff - that we did feel that we were moving into a new era where we could run on something like Continental special stages though, to be frank, Monument Hill in Dalmally was so narrow it was not exactly like a full house stage on the Monte Carlo Rally or the Alpine. Monument Hill was the kind of road that existed but very few people used it but it was at least a start.

Vis a vis nothing : I helped Mercedes Benz with their Recce for the event - I will let you know when the article on this amusing interlude is published in a magazine near you - with Walter Schock, Rolf Moll, Eberhard Mahle and Peter Riviere we paused on the way back from Inverness beside the John Cobb memorial on Loch Ness side.

[RS2000]

Thanks. I see from my recently-acquired entry list you had Lord and Lady Avebury running next car in a Triumph, presumably a Herald too. The most unfortunate name on the entry list (or in all motorsport?) is that of a Mr. Bent-Marshall...

[Graham Gauld]

I see by my earlier post I had missed out the photo of Geoff Mabbs on the 1960 RAC Rally . Herewith.



As RS2000 has the entry list in front of him could he let me know the drivers of the following cars as I am filing all of my rally and racing photos and need the names of the following

Triiumph Herald 141
Triumph Herald 155 ( Could be Mabbs)
Mini 164
Mini 165
Mini 177
Herald Coupe 122 or perhaps 22.


Also can you confirm John Whitmore was 176 in a Mini ?

[RAP]

The results of the Brands races (I was there). THe order of races is as per the programme but I think they may have run in a different order.
Race 1 GT+2000
1. J Rhodes Aston DB2/4
2. D Morley AH
3. P Riley AH

Race 2 Touring 850
1. D Seigle-Morris Mini
2. Jon Whitmore Mini
3. E Carlsson Saab

Race 3 Trg 1600(1st group)
1. Mme Rosqvist Volvo PV544
2. M Marang Citroen
3. Miss Handley-Page Rapier

Race 4 Trg 1600 (2nd Group)
1. J Wallwork Volvo
2. J D Wood Rapier
3. J Ray Rapier

Race 5 Trg +2500
1. J Sears Jag 3.8
2. G Parkes Jag 3.8
3. P Walton Jag 3.8
GT 2000 run concurrently
1. W Goodall Morgan

Race 6 GT 1300
1. P Hawkins Sprite (J Patten)
2. Pat Moss Sprite
3. J Kirkham Sprite
Trg 2500 run concurrently
1. P Bolton Citroen

Race 7 Trg 1000
1. K Chambers Anglia
2. Anne Hall Anglia#

# pulled off after 4 of 5 laps but still awarded 2nd ?
3. K Piper Anglia

RAP

[alpinemauve]

Triiumph Herald 141
Triumph Herald 155 ( Could be Mabbs)
Herald Coupe 122 or perhaps 22.

I can help with the Heralds:
141 Herald ?? Reg:??? Driver: GF Godfrey/D Keene
155 Herald Coupe Reg: 650 GHW Driver Geoff Mabbs/David Mabbs

I've no reference to 122 or 22.
22 - Sunbeam (I A Coldron/ F Heys)
122 - Sunbeam (PJopp/Les Leston

but heralds numbers I have:
133 TH16
135 TN14
139
141
143 UFN ???
147 2510 NG
148
149 RW 123
151
152
154
155 650 GHW
156 TL5
160 NMS 100
161 XYE 718

161 being Lord and Lady Avebury in XYE718 this coupe had an accident (photo somewhere of it)

If anyone can help with numberplates and clarificatio on saloon or coupe on the list be very grateful.
I can add all drivers if required

[Graham Gauld]

I can help with the Heralds:
141 Herald ?? Reg:??? Driver: GF Godfrey/D Keene
155 Herald Coupe Reg: 650 GHW Driver Geoff Mabbs/David Mabbs

I've no reference to 122 or 22.
22 - Sunbeam (I A Coldron/ F Heys)
122 - Sunbeam (PJopp/Les Leston

but heralds numbers I have:
133 TH16
135 TN14
139
141
143 UFN ???
147 2510 NG
148
149 RW 123
151
152
154
155 650 GHW
156 TL5
160 NMS 100
161 XYE 718

161 being Lord and Lady Avebury in XYE718 this coupe had an accident (photo somewhere of it)

If anyone can help with numberplates and clarificatio on saloon or coupe on the list be very grateful.
I can add all drivers if required

NMS100 was the car we were in, was it not ?, J A Morrison/G Gauld which was a regular Herald and not a Coupe. I( seem to remember our start number was 160.

[RS2000]

141 Collins/Fisher "Triumph" presumably Herald
155 Mabbs/Mabbs Herald Coupe
164 Blank space
165 Whitmore/Makin Austin (Mini presumably)
177 LaTrobe/Spiers Morris (Mini presumably)
176 Clark/Coombes Morris Mini

22 and 122 Sunbeams - but 23 was a Triumph - Causey/Stokes - presumably running in Group3 if a Herald and that low a number. I've a vague recollection that car has come up on here before. Ted Cleghorn Herald at 147 certainly has.

Edited by RS2000, 12 December 2009 - 17:02.

[mikeC]

but heralds numbers I have:
133 TH16 Tony Horne - coupe
135 TN14 Tony Nash - coupe
139
141
143 UFN ???
147 2510 NG Alex Cleghorne - saloon
148
149 RW 123 Rodney Wright - coupe
151
152
154
155 650 GHW Geoff Mabbs - coupe (the Tulip Rally winning car)
156 TL5 Tiny Lewis - coupe
160 NMS 100 Sandy Morrison - saloon (I have recorded as a coupe, but Graham should know!)
161 XYE 718 Lord Avebury - coupe

161 being Lord and Lady Avebury in XYE718 this coupe had an accident (photo somewhere of it)

If anyone can help with numberplates and clarification on saloon or coupe on the list be very grateful.
I can add all drivers if required

Edited by mikeC, 13 December 2009 - 21:06.

[alpinemauve]

I have a photo of NMS100 as a black and white coupe with Sandy Morrison taking part (and winning) the Scottish Rally in 1959. This was the first win for any Triumph Herald.

So the car (numberplate) was originally a coupe - but as a very early car (possibly 4th off the line) most panels/parts were pretty much hand made and the car may have been replaced with a production car later - arguably better suited to compete.

The plot thickens

[alpinemauve]

But then - Competing in the Scottish Sporting Car Club Highland Rally, JA Morrison won the 'Glasgow Herald Trophy' (assuming a newspaper as opposed to reference to the car) in a Saloon registered OWG 10
Motor magazine ref: April 27 1960

Second place RN Peattie (also Herald but no more details)

Edited by alpinemauve, 16 December 2009 - 10:08.

[mikeC]

Dragging up this old thread, I can update the list as follows:

133 TH16 black/white coupe Tony Horne / K Jones
135 TN14 white coupe Tony Nash / David Stone - retired accident
139 ??? G F Godfrey / D Keene - retired
141 ??? P J Collins / M J Pilcher (but RS2000 has the co-driver as Fisher)
143 UFN ??? saloon J Watson / R Kassell / P Sponton
147 2510 NG saloon Alex Cleghorne / A S Noble
148 ??? green saloon W G Thornton / J A Richards
149 RW 123 purple/white coupe Rodney Wright / ?
151 ??? red/white saloon G Benson / W M Tyson / R Heaton
152 ??? C Linstone / L M Durnin
154 ??? white saloon B R Dindle / ?
155 650 GHW coupe Geoff Mabbs /David Mabbs - retired big ends
156 TL5 white coupe Tiny Lewis / G S Sheppard - 1st in class
160 NMS 100 saloon Sandy Morrison / Graham Gould - (I have recorded as a black/white coupe, but Graham should know!)
161 XYE 718 coffee/white coupe Lord Avebury / Lady Avebury - retired accident

I should have the colour of the Mabbs' coupe somewhere, as that was the Tulip Rally winning car, but no luck at the mo...
The Causey / Stokes Triumph, no 23, was not a Herald, so presumably it was a TR3A...

[Graham Gauld]

I have a photo of NMS100 as a black and white coupe with Sandy Morrison taking part (and winning) the Scottish Rally in 1959. This was the first win for any Triumph Herald.

So the car (numberplate) was originally a coupe - but as a very early car (possibly 4th off the line) most panels/parts were pretty much hand made and the car may have been replaced with a production car later - arguably better suited to compete.

The plot thickens

Reference the question about Sandy using a Triumph Herald Coupe and a Saloon with the same registration number. The Morrisons were Triumph dealers and the registration number used to be switched from car to car

[Fred Gallagher]

I can strongly recommend you get a copy of Volume 6 of Frederic Reydellet's excellent series of books "Triumph en Competition".

There are 13 pages devoted to the 1960 RAC Rally Triumphs. From that I can add some plates:
151 - 2 LTE
152 - XJJ 272
154 - OBR 256

He thinks 133 was TH 18 but a photograph suggests your TH 16 is correct.

For the Mabbs car he has 650 GHP - there is a photograph but it's difficult to say.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[RS2000]

My 1960 data is largely from a sheet DVT (Dave Thomas) sent me, plus the odd reg no picked up elsewhere (now including 151,152 and 154 above - thank you Fred). His list has 133 as TH16 and the Mabbs car as 650GHW.
Regarding 141, Fisher or Pilcher is a fairly easy misreading of possibly hand written data and I have no other source to check, so I don't know which is correct.

Edited by RS2000, 23 January 2012 - 13:50.

[Fred Gallagher]

My 1960 data is largely from a sheet DVT (Dave Thomas) sent me, plus the odd reg no picked up elsewhere (now including 151,152 and 154 above - thank you Fred). His list has 133 as TH16 and the Mabbs car as 650GHW.
Regarding 141, Fisher or Pilcher is a fairly easy misreading of possibly hand written data and I have no other source to check, so I don't know which is correct.

The official programme has M.A.Pilcher....

Causey's car was a TR3A.

Does anyone out there have any copies of ther complete official results from the 1950s or 1960s? If so I would love to have a scan or copy.

Fred

[RS2000]

Does anyone out there have any copies of ther complete official results from the 1950s or 1960s? If so I would love to have a scan or copy.
Fred

I have 68 (the shortest list of them all...) if that's any use. The only other 50s/60s results I have are what is also on Darren Galpin's site - mostly top 10s, top 15s etc.

[mikeC]

I can strongly recommend you get a copy of Volume 6 of Frederic Reydellet's excellent series of books "Triumph en Competition".

There are 13 pages devoted to the 1960 RAC Rally Triumphs. From that I can add some plates:
151 - 2 LTE
152 - XJJ 272
154 - OBR 256

He thinks 133 was TH 18 but a photograph suggests your TH 16 is correct.

For the Mabbs car he has 650 GHP - there is a photograph but it's difficult to say.

Hope this helps.

Fred

I haven't heard of Reydellet and his book, looks like I'll have to investigate that

Thanks for the info on 151, 152 & 154, that's a few more details added.

Tony Horne's car was definitely TH16 - here seen on Rest and be Thankful. The registration number is just identifiable on the orginal, but I don't think shows up here:



Geoff Mabbs' car was definitely 650 GHW - he replaced it after the 1961 Monte Carlo with 111 LHW, and it was with this car that he won the 1961 Tulip (not 650 GHW as I previously mentioned - sorry )

Edited by mikeC, 23 January 2012 - 17:43.

[RS2000]

That photo reminds me of the "interesting" handling of the Triumph Herald. I first navigated on a rally in a Herald.

We spun.

On the way to the start.

[BRG]

That photo reminds me of the "interesting" handling of the Triumph Herald. I first navigated on a rally in a Herald.

We spun.

On the way to the start.

It makes me remember my first proper car (I don't count the Renault Dauphine as I never got it running!) which was a two tone Herald Coupe just like that one. I never had much trouble with the handling, but it never occurred to me to compete in it. That didn't come till I got my Rapier, then the Cooper S and the inevitable Escort.

[mikeC]

That photo reminds me of the "interesting" handling of the Triumph Herald. I first navigated on a rally in a Herald.

We spun.

On the way to the start.

Wimp

I loved the Herald's handling - you could place the inside front wheel to an inch, and let the rear end pirouette round a corner
(well, there wasn't enough bhp to power round )

This was our last outing, on the first Le Jog: