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#1 fivestar

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 08:22


Anybody have an idea which HWM chassis this is based on. the add appeared in the May 1957 issue of Motor Sport. Mike [5*]

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#2 Alan Cox

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 08:59

Looks as though it could be XMC34, the HWM-Alta-Jaguar which was purchased from the works by Oscar Moore and later owned by Gerry Scali (who fitted a head fairing much like the one pictured in the advert). This car has been owned by Terry Grainger since the 1960s.

#3 Graham Gauld

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 12:17



Oscar Moore ran this car in a series called Helldrivers that toured Britain visiting speedway tracks. He had it at Meadowbank Speedway in Edinbugh because I remember being surprised at seeing it that group. Oscar entertained the crowd powering round the speedway track in the HWM

#4 fivestar

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 23:00

Many thanks for the info. The car certainly looks different to when it was originally given a Jaguar engine by O. Moore.
Whilst on the issue of HWMs, how many HWM-Altas were built? My assumptions are as follows:
1949: 1 [NPA 5]
1950: 4 [Offset F2 cars]
1951: 4 [F2 cars]
1952: 4 [F2 cars]
1953: 3 [F2 cars]? Did the 1953 cars use the 1952 chassis with the modified Weslake alta engine?

I do not count MPB77 and EOY8 as HWM Altas being that they used predominately Alta chassis.

rgds - Mike [5*]

#5 David McKinney

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 06:55

I believe there were five new cars for 1951, and four for 1952. Three of the 1952 cars were updated for 1953, the fourth remaining in orginal spec. And there were two new cars for 1954

#6 Dutchy

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 12:56

I believe there were five new cars for 1951, and four for 1952. Three of the 1952 cars were updated for 1953, the fourth remaining in orginal spec. And there were two new cars for 1954


Of those how many are extant as single seaters? I'm aware of only two

#7 David McKinney

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 18:39

I'd never looked it in that context...
As far as I am aware, one 1951 car and two 1952/53 models exist as single-seaters

#8 fivestar

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:16


My scribblings show there were 5 cars in 1952. 4 were new 52 cars built and one 51 car updated, but I am probably wrong.
Of the single seaters in existence today I have:

1949:- in original condition
1950:- 1 in original condition, 1 with Jaguar engine, 1 with Chevolet V8 engine.
1951:- 1 in original condition
1952:- 1 with Alta 2 stage supercharged engine, 1 with Jaguar engine.

I am sure there must be others out there in various guises. I recall of of the Scaggs cars utilising a HWM F2 chassis.

Mike

#9 David McKinney

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 08:19

I left the 1949 car off my list because it wasn't an HWM :) and the 1950 cars because they were offset single-seaters. Still single-seaters, I suppose. And yes, the works campaigned one of the 1951 cars in 1952, though how "updated" it was I'm not sure

#10 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 20:05

I saw this one at the 2008 Mille Miglia:

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Here is what Simon Taylor told me about it:

"...The HWM that you saw on the Mille Miglia is the singleton 1949 car, raced that year by John Heath with some success in France and the Isle of Man, and broadly similar to the four 1950 cars - of which it was effectively the prototype -except that it had a rigid rear axle instead of IRS. The first HW-Alta was the rather ugly full-width streamliner of 1948, which was mainly Alta underneath, and still had non-independent front suspension. So the 1949 car can sort of claim to be the first proper HWM, although they still used the HW-Alta name until they built the 1950 cars. It still has its four-cylinder 2-litre Alta engine..."

Vince H.

#11 fivestar

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 23:31

Interesting to note Simon Taylor's comment about the streamliner having non independent suspension. I have wondered whether at the time it was built whether it retained the original rigid Alta axles. The HW Motors advert for the car below states it has independent suspension. The car today [ with Jaguar engine] does have IFS identical to the 1949/1950 cars, so I assume to increase its saleability IFS was fitterd in 1949.,
Interesting to note the advert says the car finished 7th in the Paris 12hr race. Race reports say DNF due to stub axle failure.
Mike [5*]

Posted Image

Edited by fivestar, 15 December 2009 - 00:43.


#12 Dutchy

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 13:22

I'd never looked it in that context...
As far as I am aware, one 1951 car and two 1952/53 models exist as single-seaters


Thanks David. For some reason I cannot fathom I'd forgotten about the River-Fletcher/Lampton/Chichester car when I asked the question.
I was hoping there might have been more; their survival rate is very small compared with their contempories i.e. Connaught and Cooper-Bristol

#13 David McKinney

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 18:43

Survival rate's actually pretty good. It's just that, in contrast to the Cooper-Bristols, the HWMs rebuilt as sportscars in period haven't been converted back again :)

#14 terry mcgrath

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 00:29

Here in Australia we still have HWM F2 that was initially fitted with Alta motor. Raced in UK by Tony Gaze with an Alta motor which broke a crankshaft and car sold to Lex Davison in january 1953 when he was in
UK for monte carlo rally in FJ holden and brought the HWM to Australia. Initial intention was to fit motor from Monza Alfa chassis no 50003 which had been recently rolled at Port Wakefield Sth Australia. Chassis wouldn't take alfa motor so engine from his wrecked XK120 chassis no 660179 was fitted and in fact after various upgrades and racing the block from this car is still fitted to this day!
The car with a jaguar motor had a long an illustrious race history it won the 1954 AGP at Southport Qld.
In 1962 it had a Centaur fibreglass 2 seater GT body was fitted (there is a good book out on Centaurs) This body now as 2 seater open sports is still fitted. I will be looking at this car in april so if anyone can advise if they have chassis numbers stamped and where I can look

We of course also had the 2 seater sports HWM jaguar VPA9 here in Australia from 1956 to the mid 1990's
The full histories of both these cars are recorded in our first book "the Jaguar XK in
Australia"
they will be featured in greater detail in volume 2 of our new book
See: www.jtpublications.com.au

Coming Soon
The long awaited for, second edition of the book "the Jaguar XK in
Australia" is in fact 1/3 of a 3 volume trilogly.
This just on 500 page, large size format 335 x 247mm full colour book covers
the histories of some almost 1000 XK120's in Africa, Asia, Australia/NZ and
South America.
It contains almost 1,100 photos of which only 25 appear in the original volume.

regards terry tmcgrath@bigpond.com

Edited by terry mcgrath, 15 December 2009 - 00:32.


#15 fivestar

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 00:51


Terry,

According to my info Tony Gaze drove the HWM 51/52 car both in 1952 and 1953. Which chassis of the four built in 1951 was up rated I unfortunately cannot find.
rgds - Mike [5*]

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 07:03

Gaze didn't race an HWM in 1953
My records show his car was No.6-51
The recent book Almost Unknown quotes Gaze as saying that after he bought the car Stirling Moss came along and removed the steering wheel, which was his, on which basis he says the car was the 1951 Moss mount. However, I believe in 1951 the cars were swapped around between the various team drivers from race to race, so it is perhaps unlikely Moss stuck with one car.
The car retained by the works team for 1952 was said to be 5-51.

Terry - I think the numbers are stamped on the main chassis tube in the cockpit

Edited by David McKinney, 15 December 2009 - 08:06.


#17 fivestar

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 08:03


David, you are correct the last race I see for Gaze in a HWM is the Newcastle Journal Trophy in Oct. 1952.
Again, my info implies only four cars where built in 1951. I have seen references for 1-4/51 but never 5 or 6/51.

rgds - Mike [5*]

#18 Malcolm Schofield

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 12:59

Many thanks for the info. The car certainly looks different to when it was originally given a Jaguar engine by O. Moore.
Whilst on the issue of HWMs, how many HWM-Altas were built? My assumptions are as follows:
1949: 1 [NPA 5]
1950: 4 [Offset F2 cars]
1951: 4 [F2 cars]
1952: 4 [F2 cars]
1953: 3 [F2 cars]? Did the 1953 cars use the 1952 chassis with the modified Weslake alta engine?

I do not count MPB77 and EOY8 as HWM Altas being that they used predominately Alta chassis.

rgds - Mike [5*]

VPA 9
XPA 748
2 BMF

#19 fivestar

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 01:38

Is the HWM-Jag currently owned by Kirk Rylands the same car owned/raced previously by Rivers-Fletcher/Major Lambton.

Also can anybody identify the photo below taken at the Giro de Sicilia 1998. It is listed as a HWM Jag

Posted Image

Edited by fivestar, 16 December 2009 - 01:39.


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#20 Graham Gauld

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 07:33



I think you will find that the Kirk Rylands HWM is now owned by Michael "Spike" Milligan

#21 David McKinney

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 07:52

Rylands actually had two HWM-Jags
Last I heard, his ex-Majors car was with Adrian van der Kroft, but he still had the sportscar HWM1
Unless Dr Milligan's changed mounts, his car is XPA 748

I don't recognise the Giro car

Edited by David McKinney, 16 December 2009 - 07:54.


#22 Ted Walker

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 08:29

I think you will find its the Berkshire Special.When it first appeared in hstoric racing in the UK mid 70s it was entered as an HWM Jaguar.

#23 Dutchy

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 12:04

I think you will find its the Berkshire Special.When it first appeared in hstoric racing in the UK mid 70s it was entered as an HWM Jaguar.


But presumably it is the mortal remains of Geoffrey Crossley's Alta GP2?

#24 David McKinney

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 16:35

It may contain the mortal remains of the Alta

Still doesn't make it an HWM though :)

Edited by David McKinney, 16 December 2009 - 16:36.


#25 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 17:38


Here is Rivers Fletcher with his HWM Jaguar at Great Auclum hil climb, August 12, 1961

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#26 David McKinney

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 19:55

...before the Majors and long before Kirk Rylands

#27 fivestar

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 00:39


David, many thanks for your comment. I was beginning to believe the Rivers fletcher/major car was different to the Ryland car, and have spend a few hours trying to verify this.
From my search it seems two cars went to Australia/New Zealand, one with a two stage supercharged Alta engine[Macklin/Collins] which I assume is the car now owned by Julian Sutton? and a second [Tony Gaze/Lex Davison] which is the car Terry refers to.

As a continuation then which HWM-Jag is this car?

Posted Image

#28 Dutchy

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 12:27

What a truly horrible exhaust system

#29 cdrewett

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 12:56

David, many thanks for your comment. I was beginning to believe the Rivers fletcher/major car was different to the Ryland car, and have spend a few hours trying to verify this.
From my search it seems two cars went to Australia/New Zealand, one with a two stage supercharged Alta engine[Macklin/Collins] which I assume is the car now owned by Julian Sutton? and a second [Tony Gaze/Lex Davison] which is the car Terry refers to.

As a continuation then which HWM-Jag is this car?

Posted Image

I think that's Roger Ealand's HWM Jaguar which is a total replica.

#30 Stephen W

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 13:34

I think that's Roger Ealand's HWM Jaguar which is a total replica.


Nice one Chris. I must remember to use that phrase, "total replica", this coming season! It has a real bite to it!

:wave:

#31 Allan Lupton

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 14:25

Is "a total replica" Health & Safetyspeak for "a fake"?

#32 Allen Brown

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 14:34

I know nothing of this HWM but in general terms there is a world of difference between a replica and a fake.

Ask the owner if it's a replica - if he says it is, then it's a replica; if he says it's real, then it's a fake.

#33 terry mcgrath

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 15:41

Replicas/fakes
to confuse the issue here in Australia and NZ the open wheeled HWM's have come in for copying particularly in NZ.
One company built at least 3 all of which appear to have finished up in Australia the first completed car I believe stirling moss may have driven at an AGP display run, the 2 remaining cars came to western australia one being built up and has run in a couple of VSCC reguality runs the last, a collection of parts spread over perth is just in the process of changing hands
terry

#34 RWB

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 16:39

I was hoping that someone would produce a chassis number list but no luck so far. Here is my effort, offered with very little confidence and the hope of many corrections!

101 became MXK727
102 became Stovebolt (now known as 49-001)
103 to A A Baring
104 became XMC34
105 became VPA9 (also known as HW4)
106 Jaguar-engined, written off at Goodwood. Became the second HWM1.
107 to NZ 1953 for Tony Gaze
108 became the first HWM1.
109 ?
110 ?
111 ?
112 to Tony Gaze 1957 s/c. To Rivers Fletcher etc.

#35 Allen Brown

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 16:50

The problem is that there is very limited evidence of any consistent numbering system for the HWMs. Most lists I have seen are extrapolated from the one or two cars known to have numbers.


#36 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 18:15

Kirk Rylands is a friend of mine and he sold HWM1 last year. he told many a good tale about both his cars which he bought when they were worth relatively little and raced and toured in them. he still has some nice Jags and bought a fine vintage Bentley on the proceeds of the sale of the HWMs.

Was there not a very nice GT HWM Jaguar, perhaps the past HWM built?

#37 David Birchall

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 18:23

Which is the car that Gillian Goldsmith raced?
Oh, I just looked in a magazine and it is XMC34-I wonder if she still has it?

#38 fivestar

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 02:02


Not sure if this is of interest [courtesy of Classic Cars.com] - Mike 5*
Chassis Engine Year Group First owner - Next owners (year) Comment
XMC 34 1952 => G. Scali (1954) Converted F2 car used in Britsh club events 1952/3 by Oscar and Tom Moore. Sold 1954 to G Scali
HWM 1 Jaguar 1953 H. W. Motors => Ray Fielding (1955) Works car for 1953 usually driven by George Abecassis . Sold winter 55/56 to Ray Fielding in Scotland. Re-registered as YPG 3
XPA 748 1954 Built 1954 for a customer in central England. Presumed G. Mansell who ran in minor hill climbs at this time in an HWM. Later used as a road car,
VPA 8 Jaguar 1954 Tony Gaze Biult for Tony Gaze for 1954 season. Shipped back to Australia by Gaze during 1955. Later raced by Lex Davidson.
2 BMF Cadillac V8 1954 J. Marshall Assembled by J. Marshall from works parts fitted Cadillac V8 . Driven by R. A. Page in 54/55
XPE 2 1955 H. W. Motors => Roy Bloxham New works car for 1955 with bodt similar to Aston DB3S. Raced to end 1957, then to Roy Bloxham
HWM 1 (2) 1956 H. W. Motors => John Bekaert (1958) => A. Milne (1959) => A. Mann (1960) New car for 1956 following sale of original. Raced to end 1957 then sold to John Bekaert.
SPC 982 1957 Phil Scragg Based on Alta F2 chassis for Phil Scragg for hill clims 1957 to 1959.
GPB 5 Coupe road use only



#39 David McKinney

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 11:13

Apologies - I could add quite a bit to the last few posts but am away from my records at the moment (see separate Barry Boor Syndrome thread)
Perhaps I can pick it up next week...

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#40 terry mcgrath

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 12:10


my belief is that the HWM sports car noted as VPA8 is actually rego VPA9 this is one of the very rare mistakes made by doug nye when he noted in his jaguar racing specials book 1st edition that the rego of this car was VPA8 noting that a stone had chipped out part of the plate. The UK logbook survives and quite clearly it was always VPA9.
2BMF the cadillac engined car was I believe in NZ for many years mid 1950's on
terry

VPA 8 Jaguar 1954 Tony Gaze Biult for Tony Gaze for 1954 season. Shipped back to Australia by Gaze during 1955. Later raced by Lex Davidson.
2 BMF Cadillac V8 1954 J. Marshall Assembled by J. Marshall from works parts fitted Cadillac V8 . Driven by R. A. Page in 54/55


#41 D-Type

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 12:12

my belief is that the HWM sports car noted as VPA8 is actually rego VPA9 this is one of the very rare mistakes made by doug nye when he noted in his jaguar racing specials book 1st edition that the rego of this car was VPA8 noting that a stone had chipped out part of the plate. The UK logbook survives and quite clearly it was always VPA9.
2BMF the cadillac engined car was I believe in NZ for many years mid 1950's on
terry

VPA 8 Jaguar 1954 Tony Gaze Biult for Tony Gaze for 1954 season. Shipped back to Australia by Gaze during 1955. Later raced by Lex Davidson.
2 BMF Cadillac V8 1954 J. Marshall Assembled by J. Marshall from works parts fitted Cadillac V8 . Driven by R. A. Page in 54/55

Wasn't Jenks the villain of the piece?

#42 AVO

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 14:18

XPE 2, picture from the mille miglia book

Posted Image

#43 Doug Nye

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 18:38

Concerning my 'VPA 8'/'VPA9' cock-up, as far as I can now recall I was sifting through HWM photographs back in the mid-1970s when I noticed that at one early stage - I think (without checking it) at Reims, Gaze's car had a traditional separate front number plate fitted which appeared to be lettered and numbered with those old approximately triangular-section plastic characters mounted upon it. It looked from the photograph as if the '9' was actually represented by an '8' from which the lower-left upright had been broken out. I showed this to DSJ who (I seem to recall) said that he vaguely remembered something 'funny' about that car's identity when it first appeared. Perhaps he was recalling a contemporary friend on the HWM mechanic team - probably Frank Nagel - telling him that they couldn't find a '9' in the haste to rush the car into service and so they had broken out an '8' to represent the unobtainable number???? I recall asking Abecasssis and Gaze and I think they couldn't recall either way, but made me feel comfortable with the notion it had actually been 'VPA 8' and that flying-stone damage had left it rendered 'VPA 9' . In those days pre-automatic number recognition cameras and datalink software wielded by the Rozzers it would hardly have mattered.

Happy daze...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 18 December 2009 - 18:41.


#44 Davidabecassis

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 17:01

This topic has been part of the study I have spent the last three years researching, and at last the work is published in a magum opus (416 pages!!) called A Passion for Speed, available from PJ Publishing/Paul Skilleter - see www.paulskilleterbooks.co.uk . In Appendix 3 I make the first published attempt at a complete list of the cars built at Walton. It has not been at all easy compiling Appendix 3 because of the almost complete disregard for chassis numbers and for retaining works records which John Heath and my father had while cars were being built at Walton. Nonetheless my hope is that Appendix 3 will for some time be the best starting point for anyone reasearching HW-Altas and HWMs and Altas re-built at Walton. There is also the first published attempt at a complete works race entry list for the HWM team contained in Appendix 4. Doug Nye's excellent book Powered by Jaguar is still very much essential reading on this topic, as so many HWMs eventually acquired Jaguar engines, although my research, and the story of the works racing effort after WW2, move on from that book: the two books are therefore complementary and there is not a huge amount of overlap.

If you have a specific query about an HW-Alta or an HWM while it was in works ownership, you are welcome to contact me via the new website I have set up for George - see www.georgeabecassis.com . Posting a reply to this posting on this Forum may not yield a comment/reply from me for a very long time, as I do not access this Forum very often, whereas I look at my inbox several times a day. If you are interested in the post-works race history of any of these cars, I can probably point you in the direction of someone who can help, but I do not deal with that in my book. I hope very much that someone else will write The HWM Story and take the car histories up to the present day.

#45 Doug Nye

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 17:49

David's book on his father is an absolute gem - not only jam-packed with new information and insight but a fine read and a superb production by his publisher. I very, very, very highly recommend it.

DCN

#46 fnqvmuch

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 21:51

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Davison's and - at Albert Park - 2 others?
from: http://picasaweb.goo...feat=directlink

steven

Edited by fnqvmuch, 05 December 2010 - 21:59.


#47 elansprint72

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 22:52

Oscar Moore ran this car in a series called Helldrivers that toured Britain visiting speedway tracks. He had it at Meadowbank Speedway in Edinbugh because I remember being surprised at seeing it that group. Oscar entertained the crowd powering round the speedway track in the HWM

I recently read a (borrowed) copy of the Jem Marsh book, in which there are some references to this HWM and the circus-act in which he (and it) were involved, I too was surprised that such a "good" car was being thus used. This is an excellent book; until the point where he clearly either ran out of material, or interest, therefore I'm unlikely now to purchase it. However; In the early 70's I'm reasonably sure that I photographed this car at Oulton and, if I can locate the negatives, I'll share them.

#48 David Shaw

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:00

Davison's and - at Albert Park - 2 others?
from: http://picasaweb.goo...feat=directlink

steven

Nice find there Steven. Photos appear to be from the March 11/18 1956 meeting. First 2 are Lex Davison's HWM Jaguar Sports. Third photo is Stan Jones in the T38 Cooper Jaguar. The last photo, the best that I could ascertain is from the February 11/12 1956 meeting at Fishermen's Bend, Davison's HWM Jaguar, formerly a Formula 2 HWM Alta.


#49 paulg390

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 21:00

HWM 1 Jaguar 1953 H. W. Motors => Ray Fielding (1955) Works car for 1953 usually driven by George Abecassis . Sold winter 55/56 to Ray Fielding in Scotland. Re-registered as YPG 3


Not sure if anyone on here knows who owns YPG 3 now, but I may have the ideal plate for his road car..... I have 2 YPG and 3 YPG.... or if he'd like to sell the reg 3 YPG it would make a great partner for mine :-)

#50 fivestar

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 03:09

Sorry another appeal.
Does anyone have any information on a F.C.Russell who raced the original HW-Alta streamliner at Boreham on 21st June 1952.
Was this the only race he ever entered since I can trace no other enteries, did he race other cars and lastly is he still alive?
any news appreciated.

Mike
ps: also posted this on the Alta Racers thread.