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'Recycled' chassis (Renault>AGS, Penske>ATS...)


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#1 Megatron

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Posted 11 November 2000 - 11:14

I heard the other day that the 1987 AGS that Fabre and Moreno drove was actually just a copy of a 1985 Renault. Can anyone confirm or deny that?



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#2 Paul Hartshorne

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Posted 11 November 2000 - 12:23

It actually used the monocoque from a 1985 Renault cut up a little and fitted with a Cosworth engine, the very same car that Ivan Capelli raced in 1986 with a Motori Modderni engine fitted.

It's interesting that this topic came up as I've recently been trying to collect data on recycled Grand Prix cars.

For instance; a 1983 Alfa Romeo became the first Osella FA1F (the one Ghinzani wrote off at Kyalami), a pair of 1985 Alfas became the 1988 EuroBruns, the Eiffelland was a rebuilt March, the ATS HS1's were rebuilt Penskes, the Life began it's, err life, as the First, various Williams cars were rebuilt as the McGuire and the Apollon, the obscure Shannon was originally, I believe, a Cooper, and I'm sure that there are many more.

The ultimate recycled GP car must be, of course, the Lancia-Ferrari, which Juan-Manuel Fangio used to win the 1956 World Drivers' Championship.

#3 Bob Amblard

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 14:27

I still read in a french newspaper that the 1987 AGS used an important number of pieces of the 1985 Renault chassis.
Unfortunately, I have no more info.
But I am absolutely sure that the Gonfaron team used parts of the 1985 Renault.

Paul Hartshorne, have you got some pics of the "1983 Alfa Romeo became the first Osella FA1F (the one Ghinzani wrote off at Kyalami) " ???

:wave:


PS : "didi" on board the first AGS f1 powered by a Motori Moderni

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#4 ghinzani

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 18:37

I thought it was an 84 Renault monocoque? Probably better than the 85, but then again didnt the RE40 break open and bust Tambays leg at walking pace in Monte Carlo?

Yes please on the Osella photos from early 84.

Also was the Eurobrun 188 really an 85 Alfa? I thought the monocoque of the 188 was much narrower, and in fact was the proposed 86 ALfa design finally transferred from paper to papier mache in 88?

#5 Twin Window

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 19:48

Originally posted by ghinzani

...but then again didnt the RE40 break open and bust Tambays leg at walking pace in Monte Carlo?

That's not much of an exaggeration either; I couldn't believe he'd been hurt like that when I was told, as the accident was - as you say - so pedestrian!

#6 Penword

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 22:02

I was under the impression that the Rebaque was essentially a Lotus 78.

How about Merzario's first F1 design, was that based on a March or something?

#7 Rob G

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 23:58

A very recent addition to this list would be the early-2006 Super Aguri SA05 F1 car, which is a modified Arrows A23 from 2002.

#8 Honza

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 09:29

I heard Merzario A3 was in orriginal Kauhsen WK2.

#9 f1steveuk

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 10:11

Originally posted by Twin Window
That's not much of an exaggeration either; I couldn't believe he'd been hurt like that when I was told, as the accident was - as you say - so pedestrian!


Then look at Las Vegas (?) when Tambay limped straight out of the front of his car after the front was pulled clean off, he must have thought someone had it in for his legs!

#10 petefenelon

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 10:33

Originally posted by Honza
I heard Merzario A3 was in orriginal Kauhsen WK2.


And the first couple of Merzarios had a lot of March 761 in them.

(Then again, the second F1 Penske had a lot of 751, too).

#11 petefenelon

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 10:34

Originally posted by Penword
I was under the impression that the Rebaque was essentially a Lotus 78.

How about Merzario's first F1 design, was that based on a March or something?


You're right about the Merzario. The Rebaque was essentially a copy of the 78 built at Penske.

#12 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 11:02

Originally posted by petefenelon


You're right about the Merzario. The Rebaque was essentially a copy of the 78 built at Penske.


Wasn't the Rebaque actually based on the Lotus 79 that he ran in 1979, not the earlier 78 ?

The 1976 Wolf Williams was the Hesketh 308D

More than one of the later Ligiers was really a Benetton I seem to recall. And them there was the Shadow/Arrows situation in 1978....


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#13 Bondurand

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 11:43

The Rebaque was not a simple copy. It was inspired by the 79, but redesigned by no less then John Barnard, and indeed built at Penske ;)

#14 subh

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 12:46

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
More than one of the later Ligiers was really a Benetton I seem to recall.


The JS41 of 1995 bore a striking resemblance to the B195. Both teams were under the control of Flavio Briatore at the time.

#15 ghinzani

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 13:41

All, are'nt we talking about recycled rather than copies?

Anyone know more about the Eurobrun as discussed above?

#16 mikedeering

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 13:55

From the start of the thread - possibly a myth, but didn't AGS acquire an old Renault transporter that had a load of parts in the back as well as a monocoque - which they then put back into service for Capelli in 1986?

What car in the early 1990s was based on the stillborn Reynard F1 project? I thought either LIFE or Andrea Moda?

#17 MCH

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 15:23

Originally posted by mikedeering What car in the early 1990s was based on the stillborn Reynard F1 project? I thought either LIFE or Andrea Moda? [/B]


The 1994 Pacific PR01 mainly I've read. The Benettons of that period had some input from it as well

#18 lotus79

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 15:24

The Pacific PR01 from 1994 was the stillborn Reynard project.
The Life L190 was the First F1 from 1989
The Andrea Moda car (the S921) was a newly designed car. Designed and build by Nick Wirth of Simtek.
And wasn't the Pacific PR02 from 1995, based on the stillborn Lotus car for the 1995 season?

#19 Twin Window

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 15:33

There was an AGS which never raced, wasn't there? Did McNish test it? Did that get 'recycled'?

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#20 petefenelon

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 16:14

Originally posted by lotus79
The Pacific PR01 from 1994 was the stillborn Reynard project.
The Life L190 was the First F1 from 1989
The Andrea Moda car (the S921) was a newly designed car. Designed and build by Nick Wirth of Simtek.
And wasn't the Pacific PR02 from 1995, based on the stillborn Lotus car for the 1995 season?


Right on no. 2, not so sure about 1 and 3.

All the actual IPR for the Reynard project went to Ligier and most of the people (and factory) went to Benetton. So if anything's "son of Reynard" it's more likely to be the B192, as Ligier weren't really in a position to build what they'd bought. The Pacific was a bit of a parts-bin special made up of bits of Reynard F3000 technology with a body that (for marketing reasons) had to look like a Benetton. It didn't improve by having to sit on the shelf for a year because Wiggins didn't have the cash to go racing in 93. The Pacific in '93 might just have been a competent back-third-of-the-grid car; by 1994 it stood no chance.

There have been pics of a wind tunnel model of what appeared to be the 1995 Lotus on TNF before, and they were nothing like the '95 Pacific...

(If we're talking recycled designs, the Lotus 107, on the other hand, was largely an unbuilt Chris Murphy Leyton House/March).

#21 petefenelon

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 16:19

Originally posted by Twin Window
There was an AGS which never raced, wasn't there? Did McNish test it? Did that get 'recycled'?


JH26, I think got abandoned when the team was taken over. We've done unraced cars before, with a rather impressive database having been built up on 8W.forix.com

Nishy spent a couple of years (or so it seemed!) testing various Lola hacks that never saw race action. It seemed at the time that Lola kept modifying their cars to take account of every change that the FIA might have been considering...

#22 ray b

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 16:51

a lot of F-1 and pre F-1 GP cars went to indy's 500
was the lola-honda in 67 and the Duesenberg back in the 20's
the only cars to go from indy to F-1/GP

#23 Peter Morley

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 16:59

Originally posted by ray b
a lot of F-1 and pre F-1 GP cars went to indy's 500
was the lola-honda in 67 and the Duesenberg back in the 20's
the only cars to go from indy to F-1/GP


There is a Longhorn indycar that is attempting to go historic F1 racing (the Longhorn design was based on a Williams (FW07?)).............

#24 ray b

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 17:05

just remembered the sebring offie dirtcar :p

#25 Bondurand

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 17:26

F1 that had been recycled as Indy are, IMHO, part of this topic. Was the Longhorn a copy, or a reworked F1 Williams FW07 chassis? I remember a Ligier used that way too...

#26 philippe7

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 17:35

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
The 1976 Wolf Williams was the Hesketh 308D


....308 C , I think ;) ( The 308 D was a slightly reworked 308 B , wasn't it ? )

#27 ensign14

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 17:46

Originally posted by Bondurand
F1 that had been recycled as Indy are, IMHO, part of this topic. Was the Longhorn a copy, or a reworked F1 Williams FW07 chassis? I remember a Ligier used that way too...

And a Theodore and wasn't the Orbitor a proto-March or something? And there were BRPs in the mid-60s but I think those were original.

The Klenk was basically a revamped Veritas IIRC. And the IRA was a reworked Alta (probably for F2?) and Baird a Maserati.

And wasn't the Modena-Lambo a GLAS? (Vehicle for getting Giovanni Aloi into F1...)

#28 petefenelon

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 18:09

Originally posted by ensign14
And a Theodore and wasn't the Orbitor a proto-March or something? And there were BRPs in the mid-60s but I think those were original.

The Klenk was basically a revamped Veritas IIRC. And the IRA was a reworked Alta (probably for F2?) and Baird a Maserati.

And wasn't the Modena-Lambo a GLAS? (Vehicle for getting Giovanni Aloi into F1...)



The Orbitor was done by March Engines, but was (I think) based on the 792. There was of course also the Curb-Ligier based on the JS21, if we're in this thread - and the March 81C.

Interesting though - the 81C was based on the 811 which was awful, and a copy of the FW07. The Longhorn was an 'officially-sanctioned' version of the FW07. And yet the 81C was brilliant and the Longhorn was a dog... Mike Lawrence puts it down to George Bignotti spending a lot of time and effort into developing it.

#29 PeterElleray

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 20:25

"There have been pics of a wind tunnel model of what appeared to be the 1995 Lotus on TNF before, and they were nothing like the '95 Pacific... "

Hi Pete,

The 1995 Pacific was a clean sheet of paper design , started in September 1994 by a team headed up by Frank Coppuck (Chief Designer) , with myself, Peter Weston, Geoff Aldridge and Bob Stevens as the main design team. Nothing to do with the projected 95 Lotus, although Peter had worked on that before TL folded up.

Unfortunately Pacific ran out of money soon after building it and we were never able to develop it or even afford to run it for prolonged periods . Strangest programme i've ever been on....

#30 MODE

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 22:34

Originally posted by PeterElleray
"There have been pics of a wind tunnel model of what appeared to be the 1995 Lotus on TNF before, and they were nothing like the '95 Pacific... "

Hi Pete,

The 1995 Pacific was a clean sheet of paper design , started in September 1994 by a team headed up by Frank Coppuck (Chief Designer) , with myself, Peter Weston, Geoff Aldridge and Bob Stevens as the main design team. Nothing to do with the projected 95 Lotus, although Peter had worked on that before TL folded up.

Unfortunately Pacific ran out of money soon after building it and we were never able to develop it or even afford to run it for prolonged periods . Strangest programme i've ever been on....



Happy to see that such a brillant designer is here, your Bentley 2003 was so beautiful and such an interesting design, the Radical looks good too.

( In Bamsey book "Bentley at Lemans" it is said that you when you began testing at Emmen a modified version of the existing 40% model in dec 2001 with wheels pods grafted onto the model like on the 2003 car, at first there was no difference in downforce but it took just one small difference to see the aero figures significantly improved. So Peter, now you can tell, what was this difference ? :kiss: )

#31 Mallory Dan

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 11:58

Originally posted by philippe7


....308 C , I think ;) ( The 308 D was a slightly reworked 308 B , wasn't it ? )


Yes Phillipe quite correct. How many 308Bs/308Ds were there, they never seem to appear in Historics do they ?

#32 petefenelon

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 13:21

Originally posted by PeterElleray
"There have been pics of a wind tunnel model of what appeared to be the 1995 Lotus on TNF before, and they were nothing like the '95 Pacific... "

Hi Pete,

The 1995 Pacific was a clean sheet of paper design , started in September 1994 by a team headed up by Frank Coppuck (Chief Designer) , with myself, Peter Weston, Geoff Aldridge and Bob Stevens as the main design team. Nothing to do with the projected 95 Lotus, although Peter had worked on that before TL folded up.

Unfortunately Pacific ran out of money soon after building it and we were never able to develop it or even afford to run it for prolonged periods . Strangest programme i've ever been on....


Peter,

Thanks for the definitive answer. A real case of a design team being some way ahead of the constructor's ability to use it...;)

#33 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 13:36

From another thread (Second life of some F1 chassis ) this is what you can find too:

1950 Ferrari 125/375 -> Thin Wall Special
1950 Maserati -> Milano
1951 Maserati -> OSCA 4500
1954 Veritas Meteor -> Klenk Meteor
1954-56 Lancia D50 -> Ferrari-Lancia D50 -> F801
1962 Emeryson -> ENB
1968 Lola -> Honda RA 301
1972 March 721 -> Eiffelland
1975 Token RJ02 -> Safir RJ02
1975 Lola T371 -> Hill GH1
1976 Ensign N175 -> Boro 001
1976 Hesketh 308C-> Wolf-Williams FW05
1977 Williams FW03 -> Appollon
1978/79 Lotus 78's and 79 -> Rebaque
1978 Penske PC4 -> ATS HS1
1978 Shadow DN9 -> Arrows FA1
1980 Wolf WR8/9 -> Fittipaldi F7
1981 Shadow DN12 -> Theodore TR2
1983 Alfa Romeo -> Osella FA1E
1984 Alfa Romeo 183T - Osella FA1F
1990 FIRST -> Life L 190
1990 Onyx ORE1B -> Monteverdi ORE1B
1992 Coloni F3C -> Andrea Moda Formula
1992 Simtek S 921 -> Andrea Moda Formula
1993 Reynard -> Pacific PRC 1
1994/1995 Benetton -> 1995 Ligier
2002 Arrows A23 -> Minardi PS4
2004 Ferrari F2003-GA -> Sauber C23

#34 philippe7

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 14:15

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Yes Phillipe quite correct. How many 308Bs/308Ds were there, they never seem to appear in Historics do they ?


Well, according to Allen Brown's "Old Racing Cars.com" there were 4 chassis built of the original 308 Hesketh model, which were used from early 1974 through to the end of 1976. None of them is listed as "written off" so they should be around somewhere . Or were they used to build the 1977 "E" version which is listed as a separate model on Allen's site ? I must admit I didn't remember about that one, was it a totally new chassis design or just a "recycling" of the original design ? I always thought there only were two really different Hesketh versions, the original front radiator 308 which later evolved in the 308 B by moving the radiators to the sides, then to the 308 D when the low-monocoque 308 C model proved a failure....So I don't know about the "E" really...would be happy to find out !

#35 philippe7

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 14:25

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
From another thread (Second life of some F1 chassis ) this is what you can find too:

1978 Shadow DN9 -> Arrows FA1


Hmmm....is this really right ? The original Arrows was indeed a blatant copy of the Shadow DN9 ( although it appeared earlier ) and I think the matter was actually settled in court, Arrows being judged guilty on the occasion. A matter of a large share of the former Shadow personnel, most notably Tony Southgate, moving on to form Arrows without forgetting to take with them the plans of the revolutionary new ground-effect design that the DN9 was to be.....But there really were two different models , built separately and entered in the same time range by two different teams ( well, until Arrows were forced to withdraw the FA1 as a result of the court case, and build a new car)

#36 Tmeranda

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 14:49

Originally posted by Peter Morley


There is a Longhorn indycar that is attempting to go historic F1 racing (the Longhorn design was based on a Williams (FW07?)).............


Longhorn bought the ground effects technology from Williams. I believe the car was actually built by John Zink. Big Al drove it and said it was a hog.

#37 Maldwyn

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 15:01

Originally posted by philippe7
Hmmm....is this really right ? The original Arrows was indeed a blatant copy of the Shadow DN9 ( although it appeared earlier ) and I think the matter was actually settled in court, Arrows being judged guilty on the occasion. A matter of a large share of the former Shadow personnel, most notably Tony Southgate, moving on to form Arrows without forgetting to take with them the plans of the revolutionary new ground-effect design that the DN9 was to be.....But there really were two different models , built separately and entered in the same time range by two different teams ( well, until Arrows were forced to withdraw the FA1 as a result of the court case, and build a new car)

Not really the place to discuss it, but I always felt Southgate had designed the Shadow, moved to Arrows, refined his Shadow design to create the Arrows, and then was accused of effectively stealing the Shadow. Obviously Arrows were found guilty so this wasn't the case, and I suppose in the short amount of time that was available to the new team it was inevitable the cars were going to be very similar.

#38 Henri Greuter

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 15:25

Originally posted by Bondurand
I remember a Ligier used that way too...


To the best of my knowledge, the '84 CART Ligier was based around a 1983 F1 tub wich was redesigned.
Horrible contraption as id was, it did inspire one invention that appeared in later years on other cars too: the verical fins on the sidepods in front of the rear wheels. Some magazines refeeered to those as the "Ligier whoos" or something like that.

Henri

#39 Mallory Dan

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 15:41

Originally posted by philippe7


Well, according to Allen Brown's "Old Racing Cars.com" there were 4 chassis built of the original 308 Hesketh model, which were used from early 1974 through to the end of 1976. None of them is listed as "written off" so they should be around somewhere . Or were they used to build the 1977 "E" version which is listed as a separate model on Allen's site ? I must admit I didn't remember about that one, was it a totally new chassis design or just a "recycling" of the original design ? I always thought there only were two really different Hesketh versions, the original front radiator 308 which later evolved in the 308 B by moving the radiators to the sides, then to the 308 D when the low-monocoque 308 C model proved a failure....So I don't know about the "E" really...would be happy to find out !


Philippe, the 308E was wholly different to the B/D and the C/FW05. Designed by Dernie in early 1977, it was used, largely without any success at all, in 77-78 by the Horsley Hesketh team, then in Aurora F1 in 78 by the John Cooper team, with Evans, Cooper, and once by Lees.

At least one was then hillclimbed by Ted Williams over here, again without much joy.

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#40 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 16:02

Originally posted by philippe7


Hmmm....is this really right ?


No, of course not. But they look so similar...

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#41 ghinzani

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 16:37

Guys, most of these we are talking about are copies, not actual recycling of materials a la the alleged AGS-MM etc, which is what the thread originally started out looking for?

Altho from the copies thread:
1983 Alfa Romeo -> Osella FA1E
1984 Alfa Romeo 183T - Osella FA1F

Surely the 1983 Alfa is the Alfa Romeo 183T? Osellas 1983 cars were firstly the Cosworth powered car which was a version of the 82 Cosworth ground effect alleged death-trap and then they switched to a Tony Southgate designed (John Thompson built) car midway through the year with an Alfa v12 3 litre. However it could be that all Tony designed was a slim monocoque to fit on an 82 Alfa v12 chassis. If so then thats quite remarkable as the ancestry of the 82 V12 ground effect goes back to the 179... which is quite feasible given Enzo II's propensity to recycle bits!


petefenelon quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Twin Window
There was an AGS which never raced, wasn't there? Did McNish test it? Did that get 'recycled'?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



JH26, I think got abandoned when the team was taken over. We've done unraced cars before, with a rather impressive database having been built up on 8W.forix.com

Nishy spent a couple of years (or so it seemed!) testing various Lola hacks that never saw race action. It seemed at the time that Lola kept modifying their cars to take account of every change that the FIA might have been considering...



Twinny, Pete - are you thinking about the DAMS F1 car? Didnt Mcnish drive that too? Or was that Comas and Lammers? I distinctly remember a white thing with a low rear deck and Mcnish's tartan heeed sticking out of it! Also didnt AGS miss out there second to last car (the JH25) due to funding issues and then went straight to the JH26 when a consortium took over? One of 'em looked Benelton'esque to me as I recall.

#42 ghinzani

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 16:39

Actually I may be one out on those AGS numbers...

#43 ghinzani

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 16:53

Cant find any pics of a JH26 sadly, but Im sure it was a Benetton copy. Also didnt the Fondmetal designers decamp en masse to design a car for Larrousse? I cant recall if Fondmetal mad one more car after this, but you could see the Fondmetal (Rhinland?) design ethos in the Venturi Central Park thing. I know Lola had a year out because of it having been left high and dry, but then returned with the disasterous BMS Lola Ferrari.

#44 petefenelon

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 17:09

Originally posted by ghinzani


Twinny, Pete - are you thinking about the DAMS F1 car? Didnt Mcnish drive that too? Or was that Comas and Lammers? I distinctly remember a white thing with a low rear deck and Mcnish's tartan heeed sticking out of it! Also didnt AGS miss out there second to last car (the JH25) due to funding issues and then went straight to the JH26 when a consortium took over? One of 'em looked Benelton'esque to me as I recall.


The low-rear-deck car was the Lola, definitely -- at one point the putative '95 rules said 'no airbox'. Racecar Engineering ran quite a big feature on it at the time.

The DAMS was a very unlikely looking piece of kit with huge slab-sided sidepods and a high airbox. Looked awful. I'm pretty sure Comas drove it, didn't know about Lammers. There are a couple of pics of that knocking around, although perhaps ominously all the ones I've seen show it static - there's one in The Reynard Story (Barry Ward of Reynard designed it) and probably a couple online.

Re the AGS, they raced 25, skipped 26 and the new guys raced 27.

#45 ghinzani

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 17:42

Cheers for the AGS confirmation. Yep your right there, also the DAMS/ Lola confusion - correct again! Any pics of a JH26? I'm sure it looked completely different, perhaps because it had a different designer to the 27. I think it had a droop snoot like a Tyrrell or Benetton.

Ref the aborted Reynard F1 car, we were up at the factory in 91 or 92 (I forget when, I think De Ferran was their F3 lead), anyway we were picking up F3 bits, and the F3000 sales manager used to let us have various bits that were headed for the junk or skip so we could sell them. FVL planks were a particular faveourite, they made very good setup plates. Sales mngr says to us, "take that stuff off that bench over there". I'm rummaging around and spot a nice looking black box with wires coming out, which I add to the collection. I believe it said Ford on it, and I thought "ah we can fit this to our URS FF2000 pinto". Anyway we head off from Bicester when the mobile fone goes off ten miles down the road and a voice says "did you swipe a blck box with wires?". Turns out it was an ECU for an F1 Cosworth HB which Reynard had secured the deal for, and was destined for the Brawn or Byrne designed prototype they were building!! Whoops... turned out it was worth more than out entire Truck and rather old F3 contents!!

#46 philippe7

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 17:42

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Philippe, the 308E was wholly different to the B/D and the C/FW05. Designed by Dernie in early 1977, it was used, largely without any success at all, in 77-78 by the Horsley Hesketh team, then in Aurora F1 in 78 by the John Cooper team, with Evans, Cooper, and once by Lees.



Alan Cox posted this picture in the "personal photos from the track" thread.....I hope he won't mind me copying it here ;) ......is this a 308 E then ? Sure looks different...

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#47 petefenelon

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 17:48

Originally posted by philippe7



Alan Cox posted this picture in the "personal photos from the track" thread.....I hope he won't mind me copying it here ;) ......is this a 308 E then ? Sure looks different...

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That looks like a 308C with a 308E-style nose. There was a device answering to that description at the Autosport show in '04, although in a 'works'-style paintjob.




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#48 PeterElleray

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 19:00

"In Bamsey book "Bentley at Lemans" it is said that you when you began testing at Emmen a modified version of the existing 40% model in dec 2001 with wheels pods grafted onto the model like on the 2003 car, at first there was no difference in downforce but it took just one small difference to see the aero figures significantly improved. So Peter, now you can tell, what was this difference ?"

it was to do with how the airflow from the diffuser rejoined the flow over the front suspension, take a look at pics of the 2003 Bentley in this area and compare with the new audi ...

#49 PeterElleray

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 19:06

"Thanks for the definitive answer. A real case of a design team being some way ahead of the constructor's ability to use it..."

well i think it was a decent enough starting point but it needed a lot of testing which it never got... Could never get the tyres up to temperature for instance... Lack of downforce or geometry? If you cant test changes then you are very limited in your ability to react.

I remember being told that Murray Walker got all enthusiastic about it when he first saw it in the garage in Brazil, it was such a contrast to the older Reynard derived car, very small. Guess that was the kiss of death...

#50 MODE

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 19:39

Originally posted by PeterElleray
"In Bamsey book "Bentley at Lemans" it is said that you when you began testing at Emmen a modified version of the existing 40% model in dec 2001 with wheels pods grafted onto the model like on the 2003 car, at first there was no difference in downforce but it took just one small difference to see the aero figures significantly improved. So Peter, now you can tell, what was this difference ?"

it was to do with how the airflow from the diffuser rejoined the flow over the front suspension, take a look at pics of the 2003 Bentley in this area and compare with the new audi ...


I got these ones, first the BENTLEY Speed 8 2003


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and the AUDI R10

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