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Lotus 56 turbine 1968 G. Hill


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#1 vale61

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 14:40

Hi, everyone.
I'm new of the forum.
I'm looking for pictures of Lotus 56 turbine of Indy 1968 drove by Hill (n.70).
I'm trying to build a 1:43 kit but I've got few photos.
The main problem is the rear of the car , I mean is it the same as the Leonard one (n. 60) ?
If someone has photos,infos or site on web, please let me know.
Thanks a lot.
Vale.
PS: be patient for my english.


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#2 B Squared

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 14:42

Welcome vale - I hope this is of help. Brian

Posted Image

#3 vale61

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 16:07

Great,thanks Brian.
Now the rear is quite clear.

What do you think about this?
It seems to be a little different car.
http://forix.autospo...y68-lotus56.jpg

Ciao Vale.


#4 Gary C

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 16:10


Same car!

#5 Gary C

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 16:12


Same car!


#6 B Squared

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 16:17

What do you think about this?
It seems to be a little different car.
http://forix.autospo...y68-lotus56.jpg

Ciao Vale.


According to Andrew Ferguson's Team Lotus: The Indianapolis Years, Hill was assigned and ran chassis 56/3 throughout the month of May. The white on the nose was added for race day to help the pits with quick identification of the three cars in the race. The photo in your link looks as if it is taken in the Indy pit lane, most certainly before race day. Ferguson says that Hill ran 56/1 in testing at Hethel. I don't believe that the cars would have been numbered or lettered at that point in time. The two cars you are questioning are the same, in my opinion.



#7 TrackDog

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 17:07

Another excellent source of photos of the Lotus 56 is INDY CARS of the 1960s from the Ludvigsen Library Series published by Iconografix. The book has several full-page photos of the Lotus 56, including a rear view of the #70. There is some fascinating info regarding the design and performance of the cars, also.

The book should be available from Amazon. It's where I got mine a couple of years ago.

I have a very slow-speed connection, or I'd try to post a few images.


Dan

#8 vale61

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 17:18

Thanks Gary C and B Squared.

This is the image that I found in the kit box, do you know where come it from?
Posted Image

Others doubts : I see 2 fuel caps ( there are 3 in the race photo posted by Brian) and the arms of the mirrors are different (http://forix.autospo...y68-lotus56.jpg).

By the way in the kit I found both the mirrors arms solutions (the "single" and the "double" arms place to the windscreen too), but there are not all the stikers that I need for the race car.

So I couldn't build the race car.

Ciao Vale.







#9 B Squared

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 17:56

Thanks Gary C and B Squared.

This is the image that I found in the kit box, do you know where come it from?
Posted Image

Others doubts : I see 2 fuel caps ( there are 3 in the race photo posted by Brian) and the arms of the mirrors are different (http://forix.autospo...y68-lotus56.jpg).

Ciao Vale.


The kit image is from the pit lane of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway

I don't know the differences between the chassis' well enough to comment on the number of caps on the left side, but it makes me wonder if they might be different cars. That would not be an easy modification away from the factory in the time frame given. Edit: The official qualifying photo shows one cap. The color photo is definitely on race day, you have to run the chassis you qualify, so it must have been a modification between events. Guessing only.


Edited by B Squared, 26 December 2009 - 18:10.


#10 Michael Oliver

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 19:12

The kit image is from the pit lane of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway

I don't know the differences between the chassis' well enough to comment on the number of caps on the left side, but it makes me wonder if they might be different cars. That would not be an easy modification away from the factory in the time frame given. Edit: The official qualifying photo shows one cap. The color photo is definitely on race day, you have to run the chassis you qualify, so it must have been a modification between events. Guessing only.

Looks like a mod between qualifying and the race. I have a copy of the post-qualifying official front row photo and the car still has just the two filler caps, one near the driver and the second to the rear. I am certain that Graham only used the one car throughout the month of May. I am still in touch with virtually all of the mechanics who worked on those cars, including Graham's two guys, so could perhaps ask if it was crucial to know why an extra cap was added for the race. I scanned quite a few photos of those cars for Tales from the Toolbox, including some of them being assembled at Hethel, which might be of use for your model-making?

Michael

#11 Cam2InfoNeeded

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 19:25

Michael.

I have on my "want-to-do" list, modifying the 1/18 Carousel 1 Lotus 56 turbine from the race day version, to the factory presentation version. I like the simpler markings opposed to all of the stickers and distinguishing paint added for race day, and the fact that both Graham Hill and Jim Clark droves these cars.

If it is possible to either post your photos, or if I could access them from you, I would be very grateful. Thank you.

doug

#12 vale61

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 20:05

Looks like a mod between qualifying and the race. I have a copy of the post-qualifying official front row photo and the car still has just the two filler caps, one near the driver and the second to the rear. I am certain that Graham only used the one car throughout the month of May. I am still in touch with virtually all of the mechanics who worked on those cars, including Graham's two guys, so could perhaps ask if it was crucial to know why an extra cap was added for the race. I scanned quite a few photos of those cars for Tales from the Toolbox, including some of them being assembled at Hethel, which might be of use for your model-making?

Michael


Michael thanks a lot (by the way I've just finish to read your Lotus 49 book : GREAT!!!)

at the end I verify that I can assembly only the model of the image of the kit, so what I'd like is to see other images of that model (I don't know if it's a test or qualifying model), it would be enough the rear side (to confirm that is the same as the race one).

Thanks everybody.

Ciao Vale.

#13 vale61

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 20:06

Another excellent source of photos of the Lotus 56 is INDY CARS of the 1960s from the Ludvigsen Library Series published by Iconografix. The book has several full-page photos of the Lotus 56, including a rear view of the #70. There is some fascinating info regarding the design and performance of the cars, also.

The book should be available from Amazon. It's where I got mine a couple of years ago.

I have a very slow-speed connection, or I'd try to post a few images.


Dan


Thanks Dan.

Ciao Vale.

Edited by vale61, 26 December 2009 - 20:07.


#14 B Squared

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 20:55

Looks like a mod between qualifying and the race. I have a copy of the post-qualifying official front row photo and the car still has just the two filler caps, one near the driver and the second to the rear. I am certain that Graham only used the one car throughout the month of May. I am still in touch with virtually all of the mechanics who worked on those cars, including Graham's two guys, so could perhaps ask if it was crucial to know why an extra cap was added for the race. I scanned quite a few photos of those cars for Tales from the Toolbox, including some of them being assembled at Hethel, which might be of use for your model-making?

Michael


I called my friend Walter Goodwin @ Racecar Restorations in Indianapolis and he is very familiar with the Indy Lotus'. He said without seeing the photos, his guess would be the addition of a small knee area fuel tank for race day. It sounds plausible, it would be interesting to see Carb Day pictures of the car to see its configuration at that time. B²

#15 Seppi_0_917PA

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 04:13

I have on my "want-to-do" list, modifying the 1/18 Carousel 1 Lotus 56 turbine from the race day version, to the factory presentation version. I like the simpler markings opposed to all of the stickers and distinguishing paint added for race day, and the fact that both Graham Hill and Jim Clark droves these cars.

If it is possible to either post your photos, or if I could access them from you, I would be very grateful. Thank you.

doug


Have you seen this thread - Lotus T56: the first photos?

#16 Michael Oliver

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 23:04

Michael thanks a lot (by the way I've just finish to read your Lotus 49 book : GREAT!!!)

at the end I verify that I can assembly only the model of the image of the kit, so what I'd like is to see other images of that model (I don't know if it's a test or qualifying model), it would be enough the rear side (to confirm that is the same as the race one).

Thanks everybody.

Ciao Vale.


Hi Vale

Thanks for your comments about my Lotus 49 book, glad you enjoyed it!

The photos I have of the 56 are from when it was rolled out of the workshop for the first time to be started up and run at Hethel. As I think another poster has already pointed out, there are some rear-end shots of the car testing at Hethel and at Silverstone and there appear to be differences, with a hole in the Silverstone car's rear-end and no hole in the panel at Hethel.

Michael

#17 vale61

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 12:39

Hi Vale

Thanks for your comments about my Lotus 49 book, glad you enjoyed it!

The photos I have of the 56 are from when it was rolled out of the workshop for the first time to be started up and run at Hethel. As I think another poster has already pointed out, there are some rear-end shots of the car testing at Hethel and at Silverstone and there appear to be differences, with a hole in the Silverstone car's rear-end and no hole in the panel at Hethel.

Michael


Hi Michael

my kit has a window on car's rear, I suppose I could close it with a square panel as in the photos posted previusly.

Attached the other image that I found in the kit box.

Posted ImagePosted Image

Thanks.

Vale.

#18 Sandy M

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 15:27

Hi,
Here's a few sites that might be helpful. Also a photo of my 1/25 MPC Lotus Turbine that I built last year if you don't mind me including it. I have the 1/43 scale kit that I plan to build also at a later date.

Best regards, Sandy

Restored Lotus 56- http://www.conceptca...56/default.aspx
Lotus 56 under going restoration- http://www.avonaero.com/indycar.htm
The Indy Speedway photo gallery- http://www.indy500.c...os/archive/1968

The color is somewhat distorted by the flash-
Posted Image

Edited by Sandy M, 28 December 2009 - 15:44.


#19 taylov

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 19:35

Posted Image

Graham Hill testing an early Lotus 56. from "Turbine Grand Prix" (1989) by Gerard Crombac.

Tony

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#20 macoran

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 22:10

Hi, everyone.
I'm new of the forum.
I'm looking for pictures of Lotus 56 turbine of Indy 1968 drove by Hill (n.70).
I'm trying to build a 1:43 kit but I've got few photos.
The main problem is the rear of the car , I mean is it the same as the Leonard one (n. 60) ?
If someone has photos,infos or site on web, please let me know.
Thanks a lot.
Vale.
PS: be patient for my english.

Here is a cutaway by Theo Page that will zoom out to show good details, It may be of use to you.
Posted Image
Scans thanks to Robin Fairservice

Edited by macoran, 28 December 2009 - 22:19.


#21 B Squared

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 22:50

I stated earlier that I thought Graham Hill had run the same chassis throughout the month of May. I found the photo below in the Indianapolis Star newspaper dated Saturday May 18, 1968. I also saw that Lee Roy Yarbrough was originally assigned the #20 car after Mike Spence's unfortunate accident. I had totally forgotten about that. B²

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#22 Cam2InfoNeeded

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 00:19

b-squared,

I think since Graham was the only remaining driver from the original list of Lotus drivers, he acted as the break-in and sorting driver for the whole team. I can't say for certain (I lived outside Indianapolis at the time, but haven't researched this info), but I'd still say the #70 car was his prime car all month, and he helped where he could on the other 2 cars.

#23 B Squared

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 02:07

I got curious enough to dig out an old (admittedly incomplete) daily log from the Speedway to see who all got on the STP Granatelli Lotus turbine merry-go-round leading up to Pole Day. Remember, this also included the modified #40 "Silent Sam" that came so close to winning in 1967. From my records I've got the following STP cars and drivers on the track:

May 1 - Mike Spence Lotus #60
Graham Hill Lotus #70
May 2 - Mike Spence Lotus #60
May 3 - Parnelli Jones #40 - (withdrew)
Mike Spence Lotus #60 - (fastest of day @ 160.4)
May 4 - Joe Leonard #40 - (158.786)
Mike Spence #60 - (fastest again @ 164.293)
Graham Hill #70 - (2nd fast @ 162.308)
May 5 - Graham Hill #70 - (fastest @ 165.411)
Mike Spence #60 - (164+)
Greg Weld #30 - (refresher test)
May 6 - Graham Hill #70 - (2nd @ 165.776)
Mike Spence #60 - (3rd @ 165.138)
Art Pollard #40 - (163.4 - Art comments, "the car is unbelievable")
Greg Weld #30 - (completes refresher test)
May 7 - Mike Spence #30 - (163.1 - crashes heavily @ 5:12 pm - passes away @ 9:45 pm)
Mike Spence #60 - (169.555 - fastest of the month)
Graham Hill #70 - (2nd @ 169.045)
May 8 - Joe Leonard #40 - (2nd @ 164.865)
The Lotus turbines were parked for the day while USAC investigated the Spence crash to see if there was a pre-impact failure.
May 9 - 29 cars on the track, McCluskey fastest in the #8 car @ 166.3 - no mention of the turbines
May 10 - 26 cars on the track with McCluskey fastest again @ 167.347 - no mention of the turbines
May 11 - No practice due to bad weather. The Granatelli/ Lotus team receives a set back in that USAC informs them via a letter that the four STP Lotus turbine cars #'s 20, 30, 60 & 70, did not meet rule 4 (a) & (b) of appendix B of the USAC rulebook regarding suspension and steering parts. The letter stated suspension parts are made of mild steel and must be replaced with parts made from SAE 4130 steel or equivalent, stress relieved and heat treated to produce a Rockwell reading of 28 to 34 on the "C" scale.
May 12 - Joe Leonard #40 - (165.4 before wrecking)
Art Pollard #40 - (166.8 before Leonard's wreck)
Mario Andretti #60 - (167.660)
May 13 - #40 retired from competition by Andy Granatelli
Jackie Stewart is rejected from driving on medical grounds (broken wrist)
May 14 - Lloyd Ruby #60 - (166.451)
May 15 - Graham Hill #70 - (165.350 - first laps in a week - won F1 race in Spain during Indy hiatus)
May 16 - Joe Leonard #60 - (fastest @ 170.422)
Graham Hill #70 - (5th @ 166.945)
Graham Hill #20 - (6th @ 166.574)
May 17 - practice limited to one and a quarter hours due to rain - 6 cars on track - none are turbines
May 18 - Pole Day - Leonard #60 - (on pole @ 171.559)
Graham Hill #70 - (2nd @ 171.208)
Art Pollard #20 - (11th @ 166.574)

Edited by B Squared, 29 December 2009 - 03:13.


#24 Michael Oliver

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 16:33

Hi Michael

my kit has a window on car's rear, I suppose I could close it with a square panel as in the photos posted previusly.

Attached the other image that I found in the kit box.

Posted ImagePosted Image

Thanks.

Vale.

Hi Vale

I may be mistaken but I am fairly sure that this photo is of another car entirely, the Formula 1 Type 56B, being worked on by Team Lotus mechanic Dougie Bridge, I think at Oulton Park in 1971, so not sure why it was put in with your model of an Indy Type 56!

Michael

#25 vale61

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 16:45

Hi Michael

it's very easy that is a mistake , this is an italian old kit not so accurate as the recents ones.

Thanks.

Vale.



#26 Michael Oliver

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 17:31

I got curious enough to dig out an old (admittedly incomplete) daily log from the Speedway to see who all got on the STP Granatelli Lotus turbine merry-go-round leading up to Pole Day. Remember, this also included the modified #40 "Silent Sam" that came so close to winning in 1967. From my records I've got the following STP cars and drivers on the track:

May 1 - Mike Spence Lotus #60
Graham Hill Lotus #70
May 2 - Mike Spence Lotus #60
May 3 - Parnelli Jones #40 - (withdrew)
Mike Spence Lotus #60 - (fastest of day @ 160.4)
May 4 - Joe Leonard #40 - (158.786)
Mike Spence #60 - (fastest again @ 164.293)
Graham Hill #70 - (2nd fast @ 162.308)
May 5 - Graham Hill #70 - (fastest @ 165.411)
Mike Spence #60 - (164+)
Greg Weld #30 - (refresher test)
May 6 - Graham Hill #70 - (2nd @ 165.776)
Mike Spence #60 - (3rd @ 165.138)
Art Pollard #40 - (163.4 - Art comments, "the car is unbelievable")
Greg Weld #30 - (completes refresher test)
May 7 - Mike Spence #30 - (163.1 - crashes heavily @ 5:12 pm - passes away @ 9:45 pm)
Mike Spence #60 - (169.555 - fastest of the month)
Graham Hill #70 - (2nd @ 169.045)
May 8 - Joe Leonard #40 - (2nd @ 164.865)
The Lotus turbines were parked for the day while USAC investigated the Spence crash to see if there was a pre-impact failure.
May 9 - 29 cars on the track, McCluskey fastest in the #8 car @ 166.3 - no mention of the turbines
May 10 - 26 cars on the track with McCluskey fastest again @ 167.347 - no mention of the turbines
May 11 - No practice due to bad weather. The Granatelli/ Lotus team receives a set back in that USAC informs them via a letter that the four STP Lotus turbine cars #'s 20, 30, 60 & 70, did not meet rule 4 (a) & (b) of appendix B of the USAC rulebook regarding suspension and steering parts. The letter stated suspension parts are made of mild steel and must be replaced with parts made from SAE 4130 steel or equivalent, stress relieved and heat treated to produce a Rockwell reading of 28 to 34 on the "C" scale.
May 12 - Joe Leonard #40 - (165.4 before wrecking)
Art Pollard #40 - (166.8 before Leonard's wreck)
Mario Andretti #60 - (167.660)
May 13 - #40 retired from competition by Andy Granatelli
Jackie Stewart is rejected from driving on medical grounds (broken wrist)
May 14 - Lloyd Ruby #60 - (166.451)
May 15 - Graham Hill #70 - (165.350 - first laps in a week - won F1 race in Spain during Indy hiatus)
May 16 - Joe Leonard #60 - (fastest @ 170.422)
Graham Hill #70 - (5th @ 166.945)
Graham Hill #20 - (6th @ 166.574)
May 17 - practice limited to one and a quarter hours due to rain - 6 cars on track - none are turbines
May 18 - Pole Day - Leonard #60 - (on pole @ 171.559)
Graham Hill #70 - (2nd @ 171.208)
Art Pollard #20 - (11th @ 166.574)

Very interesting. I read in Andrew Ferguson's book that Pollard had not driven a 56 much before pole day (6 laps), so his qualifying drive was quite impressive. It looks as if Graham Hill might have driven the #20 car (56/4, which Pollard drove in the race) to check that it was set up OK... Graham's regular car was 56/3, Spence crashed fatally in 56/2 and 56/1 was Leonard's winning car, the prototype that was tested by Jim Clark at Indy in March.

Michael

#27 B Squared

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 17:43

Very interesting. I read in Andrew Ferguson's book that Pollard had not driven a 56 much before pole day (6 laps), so his qualifying drive was quite impressive. It looks as if Graham Hill might have driven the #20 car (56/4, which Pollard drove in the race) to check that it was set up OK... Graham's regular car was 56/3, Spence crashed fatally in 56/2 and 56/1 was Leonard's winning car, the prototype that was tested by Jim Clark at Indy in March.

Michael


The lap that Lloyd Ruby did in 56/1 was his only flying lap in the car. Mario did very few laps in it. Spence and Leonard were immediately quick in it too. Makes me wonder if that first car just had something a little special about it. Nothing done intentionally, mind you, just better for whatever reason.

Michael, Thanks for your great insight and contributions.

Brian

#28 pertti_jarla

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 09:24

Hi, everyone.
I'm new of the forum.
I'm looking for pictures of Lotus 56 turbine of Indy 1968 drove by Hill (n.70).


Sent some photos as private message, for copyright reasons..


#29 vale61

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 11:56

Sent some photos as private message, for copyright reasons..

Thanks...thanks...thanks.

Vale.

#30 Michael Oliver

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 16:28

The lap that Lloyd Ruby did in 56/1 was his only flying lap in the car. Mario did very few laps in it. Spence and Leonard were immediately quick in it too. Makes me wonder if that first car just had something a little special about it. Nothing done intentionally, mind you, just better for whatever reason.

Michael, Thanks for your great insight and contributions.

Brian

I guess Spence had just got it dialled in very well, after it all it was the most tested of the four cars at the beginning of the month of May, having been to Indy in March, run at Hethel and also Silverstone...

So sad that he was persuaded to leave his car and try out the Greg Weld/STP car, a decision that cost him his life.

What a topsy-turvy month that was for Team Lotus. Dick Scammell still rates their failure to win the race as one of the biggest disappointments of his racing career plus there was the death of Spence and the whole shenanigans about who was chief mechanic and how the prize money would be divided between the Team Lotus mechanics (who built and developed the cars) and the STP mechanics (who put on STP pyjamas and buffed up the bodywork).

BTW can anyone confirm whether or not the 56 demonstrated by Vince Granatelli at the Brickyard a few years ago was the real thing or a rep? I am fairly sure I have read somewhere that the Avon Aero car is a replica too?

Finally, I am confused about the origin of the Lotus 56B Formula 1 car. I am fairly sure that when I started writing in the mid-1990s, I was told by someone who I thought should know that it was based on 56/4, the ex-Art Pollard car.

However, according to Andrew Ferguson's book this was sold to Granatelli/STP and still owned by First Brands (nee STP) in 1996, so this seems unlikely. With 56/1 (the Leonard car which so nearly won) being sold to Parnelli Jones, it seems more likely to have been based on one of the crashed 56s - 56/2 (the car that Spence died in) or 56/3 (the car that Hill crashed in the 500).

While the appendix in the Ferguson book states that it was 56/2 which was the basis of the F1 car, in the text (p196) it states that 'At Hethel the two Type 56s damaged at Indy were nearing completion by the end of July, awaiting turbines or perhaps piston engines from STP. Both had required new 'tubs' and suspension parts, and after completion the Team's fabricators carried on to build a slightly modified, but outwardly similar, version for Formula 1.' This clearly suggests that the F1 was an entirely new and different entity which, if correct, begs the question, what happened to 56/2 after it was rebuilt?

On p200 of Ferguson's book, he states that 'The two rebuilt Type 56 cars remained at Cheshunt (this is an error, he means Hethel as they moved there in 1966) throughout September, and it was only after another plea to STP to supply piston or turbine engines for installation that a dummy turbine engine arrived. Eventually the cars were signed off an airfreighted to Andy in October, with only one major snag. I had cabled him for payment of $80,000 in advance before shipping the two cars, to which his cabled reply read: "If you don't trust me by now, then keep the cars." Negotiation ended with Andy arranging for c.o.d. payments at Los Angeles airport.' This suggests that the two rebuilt cars were sold to STP and appears to confirm the story that the 56B was indeed an entirely separate car.

To complicate things a little more, on p202 there is reference to Granatelli's intention to install normally-aspirated Plymouth engines into the Type 56 chassis: 'Andy announced that he was installing Plymouth engines in his remaining Type 56 chassis [it is not clear here whether the author means one chassis or two] and asked us to quote for two new bare 'tubs', complete with bodywork, able to accept the Plymouth units.' It is not clear whether this was ever done.

Later, Ferguson says just that 'Andy had gone to press with the announcement of his Plymouth-engined cars [note the use of the plural in this instance] for 1969, and Colin had once again been infuriated to find that the converted Type 56 chassis had been described as 'STP-built', with no mention of Lotus.' This seems to confirm that the cars were the converted 56s rather than newly-built tubs.

However (!), a caption to a colour photo of Art Pollard driving the #40 car in 1969 [which might have been written by editor Doug Nye after the death of original author Ferguson before publication?] says 'For 1969 Andy Granatelli hedged his bets by entering this Lotus 56-lookalike with a conventional turbocharged four-cylinder Offenhauser engine [no mention of a Plymouth!], and water radiator within that opened-up wedge nose. This was a new STP-built car.'

Is this correct or a case of yet another false claim by the Granatellis of having built the car? Certainly the car in the photo has fuel hose attachments on the right side (which the orignal 56s did not) and extra catches for the top bodywork which would seem to support the 'STP-built car' statement - any other observations?

Michael

#31 RA Historian

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 17:49

Is this correct or a case of yet another false claim by the Granatellis of having built the car? Certainly the car in the photo has fuel hose attachments on the right side (which the orignal 56s did not) and extra catches for the top bodywork which would seem to support the 'STP-built car' statement - any other observations?

Michael

Good luck at sorting all this out. I have wondered for years what is real and what is not with these cars. The history of what Granatelli ran in 1969 is very clouded; Lotus 56s, Gerhardts with Lotus-like bodies, STP built cars, this engine, that engine, and so on.

Plus, the Granatelli factor. Whatever is stated by Andy et al should not necessarily be taken at face value. I think that over the years his pronouncements have tended to have a bit of exaggeration, shall we say.

In addition, there has been a Lotus 56 running at various historic events around here for years, but I have been told directly that it is built up from spares and is not an original.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 30 December 2009 - 17:51.


#32 Doug Nye

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 19:37

Mike - I would definitely be responsible for the Fergie book caption you mention. I recall speaking with Vince Granatelli about the turbine cars. Pump him as much as I could the only thing he really emphasised to me was how poorly Lotus had built the original cars and how well STP built its own replicars. He told me a believable tale about the Art Pollard 1969 car using an STP tub, NOT a Lotus. How would I rate Vince Granatelli as a witness? Umm - pretty much as one would have expected. He tended to be very economical with the actualite, but when pursued in detail came up with a fair amount. But I did emerge from the conversation inn two minds about thinking it was all moonshine...

DCN

#33 Michael Oliver

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 00:11

Mike - I would definitely be responsible for the Fergie book caption you mention. I recall speaking with Vince Granatelli about the turbine cars. Pump him as much as I could the only thing he really emphasised to me was how poorly Lotus had built the original cars and how well STP built its own replicars. He told me a believable tale about the Art Pollard 1969 car using an STP tub, NOT a Lotus. How would I rate Vince Granatelli as a witness? Umm - pretty much as one would have expected. He tended to be very economical with the actualite, but when pursued in detail came up with a fair amount. But I did emerge from the conversation inn two minds about thinking it was all moonshine...

DCN

'How poorly Lotus built the original cars and how well STP built its own replicars'? Blimey, Vince liked to hold back didn't he?! I am prepared to believe that the car shown in the Ferguson book is not a real 56 chassis given the differences in location of fuel fillers. But given the BS the Granatellis came up with about the whole 56 project ('Colin Chapman built it alright but he built what I told him to build'!!!!) I am just not sure how reliable a witness he can be...

Michael

#34 Michael Oliver

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 00:17

Good luck at sorting all this out. I have wondered for years what is real and what is not with these cars. The history of what Granatelli ran in 1969 is very clouded; Lotus 56s, Gerhardts with Lotus-like bodies, STP built cars, this engine, that engine, and so on.

Plus, the Granatelli factor. Whatever is stated by Andy et al should not necessarily be taken at face value. I think that over the years his pronouncements have tended to have a bit of exaggeration, shall we say.

In addition, there has been a Lotus 56 running at various historic events around here for years, but I have been told directly that it is built up from spares and is not an original.

Tom

Tom

It is a muddle indeed. Re the recent historic runner, this purports to be the ex-Joe Leonard car, 56/1 , acquired from Parnelli in 1998 but the chassis plate reads '56/1 RE' (as in replica or recreation?) and as of 2004 (posted on another Lotus 56 thread), Parnelli apparently still had 56/1 sitting in his shop/museum...

There are certain details that distinguish some of the cars which don't appear to be evident on either the repro car or the Parnelli one, which worries me somewhat! But I'm not prepared to go into these on a public forum... Ho hum!

Michael

#35 B Squared

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 00:24

To be fair to Granatelli, I think he had a proven fondness for 4 wheel drive (Ferguson Novi - 1964) and to turbines (#40 Pratt & Whitney -1967, also 4wd). I don't remember either of those features on a Team Lotus car prior to the association between the two parties. I was only ten years old at the time though, so I may be wrong. I've no doubt that Chapman maximized the value of those features into his design, but would he have built a 4 wheel drive, turbine Lotus without Granatelli's input - cash or vision?

Brian

Edited by B Squared, 31 December 2009 - 00:29.


#36 Michael Oliver

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 00:41

To be fair to Granatelli, I think he had a proven fondness for 4 wheel drive (Ferguson Novi - 1964) and to turbines (#40 Pratt & Whitney -1967). I don't remember either of those features on a Team Lotus car prior to the association between the two parties. I was only ten years old at the time though, so I may be wrong. I've no doubt that Chapman maximized the value of those features into his design, but would he have built a 4 wheel drive, turbine Lotus without Granatelli's input - cash or vision?

Brian

Brian

That's a fair point that you make and I think it perhaps unlikely Chapman would have gone the 4wd/turbine route without Granatelli's influence. But I think it went a lot further than that in the publicity that STP put out at the time and although the concept may have been influenced by the Granatellis, I think I am correct in saying that the first time Mr Indy 500 saw the car was when it came to Indy in March, fully built up. Whereas Vince was claiming in the press that he had engineered and built the cars...patently untrue. It certainly caused a lot of ill-feeling among the Team Lotus mechanics, that's for sure!

Michael

#37 Gerr

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 02:25

t
To complicate things a little more, on p202 there is reference to Granatelli's intention to install normally-aspirated Plymouth engines into the Type 56 chassis: 'Andy announced that he was installing Plymouth engines in his remaining Type 56 chassis [it is not clear here whether the author means one chassis or two] and asked us to quote for two new bare 'tubs', complete with bodywork, able to accept the Plymouth units.' It is not clear whether this was ever done.

Later, Ferguson says just that 'Andy had gone to press with the announcement of his Plymouth-engined cars [note the use of the plural in this instance] for 1969, and Colin had once again been infuriated to find that the converted Type 56 chassis had been described as 'STP-built', with no mention of Lotus.' This seems to confirm that the cars were the converted 56s rather than newly-built tubs.

However (!), a caption to a colour photo of Art Pollard driving the #40 car in 1969 [which might have been written by editor Doug Nye after the death of original author Ferguson before publication?] says 'For 1969 Andy Granatelli hedged his bets by entering this Lotus 56-lookalike with a conventional turbocharged four-cylinder Offenhauser engine [no mention of a Plymouth!], and water radiator within that opened-up wedge nose. This was a new STP-built car.'

Is this correct or a case of yet another false claim by the Granatellis of having built the car? Certainly the car in the photo has fuel hose attachments on the right side (which the orignal 56s did not) and extra catches for the top bodywork which would seem to support the 'STP-built car' statement - any other observations?

Michael


Roger Huntington's "Design and Development of the Indycar" has a nice clear photo of an STP Lotus 56/56 clone being fitted with a Plymouth V8 and what I think is an automatic transmission at the Granatelli shop. The chassis/monocoque/everything appears to be brand-new, unpainted. The dashboard is new and un-holed for instruments. There are two nose/body sections in the background also new and unpainted.
Looks like a 1968 Lotus 56, except for at least three fuel hose/bladder holes in the left side lower, the radiator and the Hurst/Airheart brake and clutch cylinders.

Edited by Gerr, 31 December 2009 - 02:27.


#38 Michael Oliver

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 15:02

Roger Huntington's "Design and Development of the Indycar" has a nice clear photo of an STP Lotus 56/56 clone being fitted with a Plymouth V8 and what I think is an automatic transmission at the Granatelli shop. The chassis/monocoque/everything appears to be brand-new, unpainted. The dashboard is new and un-holed for instruments. There are two nose/body sections in the background also new and unpainted.
Looks like a 1968 Lotus 56, except for at least three fuel hose/bladder holes in the left side lower, the radiator and the Hurst/Airheart brake and clutch cylinders.

Thanks Gerr, I haven't heard of this book, I'm afraid, as I have tended to concentrate on F1 and European racing. I find that, as the years pass, my interest in US racing has been growing, and the Lotus involvement adds an extra dimension. Given their propensity to be economical with the truth, the big question is: did the Granatellis actually build two replicas or were these the two bare tubs initially discussed with Team Lotus that were delivered and perhaps modified to reflect the needs of the Plymouth and Offy engines?

Michael


#39 Gary C

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 15:56

I remember Bob Dance saying to me once that he thought the Indy 56's were the best cars Team Lotus ever produced.

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#40 Tony Matthews

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 17:05

Whatever will be unraveled in the years to come regardung chassis, engines and who built what, I find it staggering that these beautiful and technically advanced cars were built over 40 years ago. If they appeared, new, at a circuit now they would still look futuristic.

#41 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 19:22

But compare these (never mind the contemporary Lotus 25) with the Lockheed SR71 and they look like dinosaurs......

#42 Tony Matthews

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 19:25

Well, I was comparing apples with apples, Simon.

#43 sprintcar5k

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 00:11

Hi, everyone.
I'm new to the forum.
Does anyone have or know how I can obtain DETAILED drawings and pictures of the Lotus 56 Turbine car? I want to build a large scale model of the car and want to make it completely accurate to the real car. I have compiled a 3" thick notebook of pictures and all technical information on the car that I can find and have torn apart carousel models 1/18 scale diecast to get more information. Tameo's 1/43 scale model has been very helpful also. I've got Crombac's book and many others but really need detailed drawings to do the project properly.

I have always loved this car ever since I was at Indy in '68. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

David

#44 TrackDog

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 00:25

Hi, everyone.
I'm new to the forum.
Does anyone have or know how I can obtain DETAILED drawings and pictures of the Lotus 56 Turbine car? I want to build a large scale model of the car and want to make it completely accurate to the real car. I have compiled a 3" thick notebook of pictures and all technical information on the car that I can find and have torn apart carousel models 1/18 scale diecast to get more information. Tameo's 1/43 scale model has been very helpful also. I've got Crombac's book and many others but really need detailed drawings to do the project properly.

I have always loved this car ever since I was at Indy in '68. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

David


Welcome, David. Here's one link you might like to check out.

http://carblueprints...us/lotus-56.gif


Dan


#45 Tom Glowacki

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 01:25

Check this out for a 3 view plan drawing:

http://www.vsrnonlin...C_V5N8_P374.jpg
http://www.vsrnonlin...C_V5N8_p375.jpg

There are a number of other cars on this site.

#46 darky

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 09:08

Lotus 56B

http://www.vsrnonlin...C_V8N7_p318.jpg
http://www.vsrnonlin...C_V8N7_p319.jpg

Lotus 56

http://img145.images...us56drawing.jpg

Lotus 56/56B

http://img141.images...6315/guidel.jpg

#47 Tim Murray

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 09:26

If you haven't found them already, there are a couple of Lotus 56 drawings in the Cutaways thread:

Posted Image


Posted Image



#48 vale61

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 11:13

I'm back again,
good year everyone!

I have another question ?

You know I have the lotus 56 G.Hill Indy 68, are there many differences with the Dave Walker 1971 Durch GP ?

The decals for this model are available but I'm looking for photos or (better) drawings.

In case it had the protusions on sides (I suppose tanks) I leave the model as Indy.

But if the differences are easy I could try.

Thanks for your patient.

Ciao Vale.

Edited by vale61, 01 January 2010 - 11:40.


#49 Michael Oliver

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 14:08

I'm back again,
good year everyone!

I have another question ?

You know I have the lotus 56 G.Hill Indy 68, are there many differences with the Dave Walker 1971 Durch GP ?

The decals for this model are available but I'm looking for photos or (better) drawings.

In case it had the protusions on sides (I suppose tanks) I leave the model as Indy.

But if the differences are easy I could try.

Thanks for your patient.

Ciao Vale.

Mainly from a visual point of view the additional side fuel tanks and the addition of front nose fins and a rear wing. Technically, there were other changes such as beefing up the brake system to cope with the heavy braking required on road circuits. I forget if wheels/tyres were different, haven't looked at this for some years...

Michael


#50 B Squared

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 18:36

A couple of the cars that have been part of the discussion. Brian

photos: B²
Posted Image
After the 1969 Indy 500, Carl Williams' Gerhardt-Offy that qualifed 30th - placed 25th - DNF clutch (sorry about the poor image shot with my first cheapie camera at 11) years old)
Posted Image
Lotus 56 at the Indy Museum in 1995.