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AUTOSPORT.com's top 10s of the decade


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#201 Johnrambo

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 13:00

Massa did not outperform Kimi 2008. They was very evenly matched. Hamilton hitting him in Canada and Kimi himself hitting the barriers at Spa brought Massa ahead.


Actually Kimi was well ahead and leading the whole damn thing before the Ferrari "updates" which eventually cost them the WDC.

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#202 aditya-now

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 13:15

Top 10 F1 drivers:

10. Mark Webber
9. Robert Kubica
8. Kimi Raikkonen
7. Felipe Massa
6. Mika Hakkinen
5. Jenson Button
4. Sebastian Vettel
3. Fernando Alonso
2. Lewis Hamilton
1. Michael Schumacer



Abysmal list; a top-ten-list-of-2009, with Schumacher and Hakkinen thrown into it.
There should not be a place for Hakkinen, Hamilton second overall is silly, just as Vettel at fourth, and Massa should not be ahead of Raikkonen. No Montoya, but Kubica and Webber. Laughable.


Just for a quick comparison, this is the point score total of the decade:

1 SCHUMACHER Michael 799.00
2 RAIKKONEN Kimi 579.00
3 ALONSO Fernando 577.00
4 BARRICHELLO Rubens 530.00
5 BUTTON Jenson 327.00
6 MASSA Felipe 320.00
7 COULTHARD David 314.00
8 MONTOYA Juan-Pablo 307.00
9 SCHUMACHER Ralf 267.00
10 HAMILTON Lewis 256.00
11 TRULLI Jarno 235.50
12 FISICHELLA Giancarlo 226.00
13 HEIDFELD Nick 219.00
14 WEBBER Mark 169.50
15 KUBICA Robert 137.00
16 HAKKINEN Mika 126.00
17 VETTEL Sebastian 125.00
18 KOVALAINEN Heikki 105.00
19 ROSBERG Nico 75.50
20 VILLENEUVE Jacques 55.00

It puts the input of Hamilton, Webber, Kubica and Vettel into the right perspective.


Couldn't agree more with giacomo!

After all, there is a reason for points being scored and they reflect the reality, not just some fanboy's wishful thinking...

Points/race would be however:

1. M. Schumacher
2. Hamilton
3. Alonso
4. Räikkönen
5. Montoya
6. Vettel
7. Massa
8. Häkkinen
9. Kubica
10. Coulthard


Also Galko's list has it's merits - it shows absolute strength of a driver very clearly. Even Sebastian Vettel, in spite of his Torro Rosso period, figures rather well here, which says a lot about what calibre of a driver he is.

I would say that the truth lies somewhere in between "total points reached within 2000 - 2009" and "points per race ratio between 2000 and 2009".

While the first list rewards drivers who have career endurance like Rubens, who was a winner and competitive both in the first year (2000) and the last year (2009) of the decade (who else was?) and also Jenson (2004, 2006 and 2009 being the highlights), the latter list shows the absolute strength of a driver and makes it clear, why Montoya, Hamilton and Vetttel have so many fans - these guys are absolutely hot drivers.

And in between these two categories ("endurance drivers" versus "hot drivers") you have the Michael Schumacher, Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen type of driver, who are fierce, hot and endurant at the same time. Kimi could well have ended up winning three championships in 2003, 2005 and 2007, which would have reduced Fernando's tally to one (like Hamilton and Button!) and Schumacher's to four....

So. although I previously totally agreed with ryan86's list I now correct mine a little, taking giacomo's and galko's illumining facts into consideration:

1. Michael Schumacher
2. Fernando Alonso
3. Kimi Raikkonen
4. Lewis Hamilton
5. Jenson Button
6. Rubens Barrichello
7. Juan Pablo Montoya
8. Sebastian Vettel
9. Felipe Massa
10. Mika Hakkinen

That is, Jenson the last (and weakest) of the WDC's, Rubens the first and most consistent of the non-WDC's over the decade, and Mika Hakkinen still in there because of some memorable races in 2000 and 2001 and his points per race ratio. Maybe this list does a little injustice to DC, who placed 7th in the total points list, as compared to Mika placing eighth in the points per race list, yet here I am rather leaning with Hakkinen. Maybe unfairly so, because it is the top drivers of the decade, and DC was in it for a much longer time than Mika.

Surely also this list is not pleasing to many, yet it reflects certain "scientific" aspects in making up such a list objectively. :) :cool:

Edited by aditya-now, 03 January 2010 - 13:54.


#203 aditya-now

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 14:17

Sometimes I think these lists exist with some weird ones otherwise we'd all go I agree with that and move on. I'm sure others would disagree with my list, but it was made with the best of intentions.

1. Michael Schumacher
2. Fernando Alonso
3. Kimi Raikkonen
4. Lewis Hamilton
5. Juan Pablo Montoya
6. Jenson Button
7. Rubens Barrichello
8. Mika Hakkinen
9. Felipe Massa
10. Sebastian Vettel


Again analyzing Ryan's list, it would qualify as the "hottest drivers of the decade list" if he were to place Vettel, Hakkinen (remember that Spa 2000 overtaking of Schumi?!?) and Massa above Barrichello and Button, who are really smooth, not hot drivers.

The "hottest" would be thus

1. Michael Schumacher
2. Fernando Alonso
3. Kimi Raikkonen
4. Lewis Hamilton
5. Juan Pablo Montoya
6. Sebastian Vettel
7. Mika Hakkinen
8. Felipe Massa
.
.
. who else?

Jacques Villeneuve was hot, but not in this decade except for his Eau Rouge adventures.....Kobayashi was hot the last two races of the decade, but will be in the 2010's.....
These two would make up my top ten hottest drivers, but I know, this is not valid.




#204 PNSD

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 14:28

1. Schumacher
2. Alonso
3. Kimi - 2003,2004, and 2005 were simply amazing from this guy
4. Lewis
5. JPM
6. Mika - Low rating but I rate Mika a better driver than all of these except for Schumacher and Alonso.
7. Button
8. Massa
9. Rubens
10. Fizzy - 2000, 2001,2002,2003, and 2004 were very good seasons for him. At his best imo.

Vettel on list of top 10 drivers of decade??!!

Edited by PNSD, 03 January 2010 - 14:29.


#205 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 19:35

The problem with the points per race list is it doesnt take into account car performance. Schumacher and Barrichello had the best car for 4/5 seasons in the 00s at Ferrari so is a huge advantage. Button and Barrichello had one of the worst cars on the grid in 07 and 08 which effectively dashes their points/race record.

Schumacher no doubt deserves to be top of both lists and I dont think it'll ever happen again but no other driver spent the % of seasons in the 00s in the best car. The only other guy was the lap dogged Rubens.

Comparison to team mates is the truer barometer. Even MS vs RB at Ferrari where MS was favoured this is fairer. Rubens only managed to Finish 2nd to Micheal in the WDC twice (02 and 04).

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 03 January 2010 - 19:38.


#206 Atreiu

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 23:03

A point table is a more useful tool than the personal opinion of a journo who obviously forgot that there were F1 races before 2007.
It shows that the input of young drivers like Hamilton and Vettel was zero and non-existent early in the decade, just as Schumachers and Hakkinens input late in the decade.

And your counter example Barrichello was competitive and winning in 2000, as well as in 2009.


Get serious, name one outstanding season Barrichello had in which he was the benchmark and at least put up a strong title fight. Like I said, he never lead a season, never had more wins than a teammate and lost titles to both of them. But he was lucky enough to have some great cars and notch up tons of podiums and points, which mean squat compared to never even coming close to a title.

Hamilton, in three seasons, won as much as Barrichello in the entire decade. He also won a title in his second season and finished runner up while matching none less than Alonso still in his rookie season. Vettel won in a Minardi, of, if you rather, a B-spoke Red Bull. He also won 4 races in a very troubled season and has become on of the hottest properties in the paddock, something Barrichello NEVER was, but the points don't tell.

But then, if you'd rather go by points and overlook what has really happened...

#207 AUTOSPORT.com

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:06

Due to an admin error, Toby Moody's top 10 MotoGP riders was not published in the correct order. Apologies for that.

The correct order has now been published, here


And here:
10. Kenny Roberts Jr
9. Marco Melandri
8. Max Biaggi
7. Loris Capirossi
6. Dani Pedrosa
5. Nicky Hayden
4. Jorge Lorenzo
3. Casey Stoner
2. Sete Gibernau
1. Valentino Rossi

#208 aditya-now

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:16

Due to an admin error, Toby Moody's top 10 MotoGP riders was not published in the correct order. Apologies for that.

The correct order has now been published, here


And here:
10. Kenny Roberts Jr
9. Marco Melandri
8. Max Biaggi
7. Loris Capirossi
6. Dani Pedrosa
5. Nicky Hayden
4. Jorge Lorenzo
3. Casey Stoner
2. Sete Gibernau
1. Valentino Rossi


Ah, Toby Moody pulls back!!! Who would have thought that...
So it sees Stoner moving up to nearly the place where he belongs. And this at the cost of Max Biaggi...

Edited by aditya-now, 04 January 2010 - 10:18.


#209 carbonfibre

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:17

Hmmm........

Sete at two and Biaggi at 8 omg get's even more funnier.

#210 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:46

He clearly hasn't ever bothered looking at a comparison of Hayden vs Pedrosa as team mates either

#211 juicy sushi

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 15:31

Yeah, the continued ranking of Gibernau at #2 makes no sense based on statistics or sentiment.

#212 Atreiu

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 17:18

That's better.
:)

#213 race addicted

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 19:25

The combined list from the Autosport staff makes for a crazy result I think!

TOP TEN DRIVERS OF 2000-2009

1. M. Schumacher 254
2. Alonso 235
3. Hamilton 191
4. Raikkonen 177
5. Button 111
6. Vettel 89
7. Massa 88
8. Montoya 83
9. Hakkinen 79
10. Barrichello 55
11. Coulthard 23
12. Kubica 13
13. R. Schumacher 8
14. Trulli 4
15. Webber 3
=. Sato 3
17. Verstappen 2
18. Villeneuve 1

I'm OK with the top four, but Massa, Vettel, Button and Montoya ahead of Häkkinen?!?!?!?!?!? Barrichello (and Montoya aswell!) ahead of DC?! Should Vettel be in this list when it is afterall for the decade? Villeneuve 18th!!! Laughable!

Edited by race addicted, 04 January 2010 - 19:27.


#214 noikeee

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 19:35

I think it's one of the sanest lists around, which is a little surprising, as reading the article we can see that there were some completely nuts votes by some of the guys.

#215 P123

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 19:38

The combined list from the Autosport staff makes for a crazy result I think!

TOP TEN DRIVERS OF 2000-2009

1. M. Schumacher 254
2. Alonso 235
3. Hamilton 191
4. Raikkonen 177
5. Button 111
6. Vettel 89
7. Massa 88
8. Montoya 83
9. Hakkinen 79
10. Barrichello 55
11. Coulthard 23
12. Kubica 13
13. R. Schumacher 8
14. Trulli 4
15. Webber 3
=. Sato 3
17. Verstappen 2
18. Villeneuve 1

I'm OK with the top four, but Massa, Vettel, Button and Montoya ahead of Häkkinen?!?!?!?!?!? Barrichello (and Montoya aswell!) ahead of DC?! Should Vettel be in this list when it is afterall for the decade? Villeneuve 18th!!! Laughable!


The list seems fine to me. Hakkinen had one good season -2000. Montoya is easily ahead of DC too.

#216 race addicted

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 19:46

The list seems fine to me. Hakkinen had one good season -2000. Montoya is easily ahead of DC too.


Ah, of course, I actually forgot, somehow, that Häkkinen retired after the '01-season. Btw, his US-win that year was a great one, so I'm not really prepared to say it wasn't a good season overall. Far from his best, but also far from his worst.
I wouldn't put Montoya ahead of DC, but I guess you'd expect me to say that. I think - even in what was two of DC's more crappy seasons ('03 & '04) - that he performed better against Räikkönen than Montoya did. In '03 DC's race-pace wasn't far off his team-mate, a handful of times better, and I rarely saw Montoya appear faster than Räikkönen in their 1 1/2 seasons together. Wasn't DC on average three tenths off Räikkönen while Montoya was a few hundreths further off than that? ....if memory serves...

#217 BMW_F1

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 19:52

the mclaren never suited JPM yet in 05 JPM beat Kimi on several occasions.. I don't recall DC snatching a win from Kimi like Brazil 05 for example.. ?

#218 Group B

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 19:58

So. although I previously totally agreed with ryan86's list I now correct mine a little, taking giacomo's and galko's illumining facts into consideration:

1. Michael Schumacher
2. Fernando Alonso
3. Kimi Raikkonen
4. Lewis Hamilton
5. Jenson Button
6. Rubens Barrichello
7. Juan Pablo Montoya
8. Sebastian Vettel
9. Felipe Massa
10. Mika Hakkinen

That is, Jenson the last (and weakest) of the WDC's, Rubens the first and most consistent of the non-WDC's over the decade, and Mika Hakkinen still in there because of some memorable races in 2000 and 2001 and his points per race ratio. Maybe this list does a little injustice to DC, who placed 7th in the total points list, as compared to Mika placing eighth in the points per race list, yet here I am rather leaning with Hakkinen. Maybe unfairly so, because it is the top drivers of the decade, and DC was in it for a much longer time than Mika.

Surely also this list is not pleasing to many, yet it reflects certain "scientific" aspects in making up such a list objectively. :) :cool:

Given that I find the whole concept of only counting 'bits' of careers a bit daft I think this list makes the best stab at it thus far. :up: Still does my head in seeing JB above MH though :drunk:


#219 Galko877

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 20:25

Given that I find the whole concept of only counting 'bits' of careers a bit daft I think this list makes the best stab at it thus far. :up: Still does my head in seeing JB above MH though :drunk:



Over a career Mika should be ahead of Jenson. But if we are talking about the 2000s strictly this is plausible.

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#220 race addicted

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 20:33

the mclaren never suited JPM yet in 05 JPM beat Kimi on several occasions.. I don't recall DC snatching a win from Kimi like Brazil 05 for example.. ?

You mean 2004, Montoya in a Williams and Räikkönen in the McLaren. But yes, that was a superb performance from Montoya. I think he extracted more from himself in the Williams-environment.

#221 BMW_F1

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 20:39

You mean 2004, Montoya in a Williams and Räikkönen in the McLaren. But yes, that was a superb performance from Montoya. I think he extracted more from himself in the Williams-environment.


two years in a row Montoya beat Kimi in Brazil, one time with Williams and another with Mclaren..

#222 ryan86

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 20:45

Vettel has acheived more or about an equal amount to other driver in his two-and-half seasons in the sport. He scored points in his first race, an admirable, if not overwhelming acheivement. At TR he was on course for a podium. He played, of course, some part in his downfall in that race, but there was a lot to be admired from a driver that young to lead and mix it with the big guys in one of the worst conditions I've ever seen for a GP. The following race, in mixed conditions, he played it perfectly to get 4th.

In 2008, he won a race in mixed conditions by playing the whole weekend perfectly, giving us one of the best stories F1 had seen in years. Yes, it was basically a Red Bull, but Red Bull didn't win any races, and there will have been hordes of people in that team who will have spent years not scoring points when it was Minardi so for them to experience for just one pole and one win, even if the team reverts back to perenial backmarkers, makes it one of the special weekends in the history of the sport. Add to that, whilst Bourdais, who was a tad unlucky on occasion, scored 4 points, Vettel scored consistently well for the second half of the season.

In 2009, he was given a genuine race-winning car, one four races and put together a sort of half-attempt at a world title tilt. The rawness still apparent with a few errors, but there's been that blinding speed apparent. He's acheived more in those 2 and a bit seasons than others who would replace him have done in 9 or 10.

#223 sephiroth

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 21:34

Kimi could well have ended up winning three championships in 2003, 2005 and 2007, which would have reduced Fernando's tally to one (like Hamilton and Button!) and Schumacher's to four....


7 - 2 != 4.

Math lessons should be compulsory.

#224 Ramses1348

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 21:53

7 - 2 != 4.

Math lessons should be compulsory.


yeah and reading lesson as well... We are speaking about the years 2000s, so MS "only" had 5 titles in that period, and KR was close to steal him from 1... Anyway if ifs and buts... :o

#225 ryan86

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 21:57

Kimi was a lot closer to having none than he was having more.

#226 THE "driverider"

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 23:02

My Top 10 Formula One Drivers of the Decade
1. Michael Schumacher
2. Fernando Alonso
3. Lewis Hamilton
4. Jenson Button
5. Kimi Raikkonen
6. Rubens Barrichello
7. Juan Pablo Montoya
8. Felipe Massa
9. Mika Hakkinen
10. Sebastian Vettel

My Top 10 Moto GP Riders of the Decade
1. Valentino Rossi
2. Casey Stoner
3. Sete Gibernau
4. Jorge Lorenzo
5. Marco Melandri
6. Nicky Hayden
7. Dani Pedrosa
8. Max Biaggi
9. Loris Capirossi
10. Kenny Roberts Jr

Edited by THE "driverider", 04 January 2010 - 23:03.


#227 sephiroth

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 23:04

yeah and reading lesson as well... We are speaking about the years 2000s, so MS "only" had 5 titles in that period, and KR was close to steal him from 1... Anyway if ifs and buts... :o


If we are doing ifs, Schumacher should have gotten 2006 also. After all if it weren't for the engine failure at Suzuka :(

On the other hand I don't see how Kimi should have won 2003. He won 1 race the entire year. 1. He would have been a less deserving champion than Button and thats saying something. Even Barrichello won more.

#228 ryan86

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 00:11

To have won the title though in the last race, he would have finished the season with 2 wins.

#229 aditya-now

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 11:06

7 - 2 != 4.

Math lessons should be compulsory.


We are looking at the decade 2000 - 2009, so Schumi had 5 WDC´s in the 2000´s. Have a look at the title of this thread. :wave:

#230 Frans

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 12:19

17. Verstappen 2
18. Villeneuve 1




17th? .... BE REAL! The Boss is a top 10 contender!!!!!!! :mad:

#231 HaPe

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:33

You said that, and it is not necessarily true. You can not measure things like that so easily. In fact, Massa had only one retirement 2007, Kimi had two, Electrical problem in Spain and Hydraulic in the European GP.
Massa had a suspension problem at Monza.

2008 Kimi had five retirements, was hit by Lewis in Canada and had an engine failiure in Australia and at the European GP (not a happy place for him, remember the tire blow 2003?) and he crashed at Spa and Hungary.
Massa had three retirements, an engine failure and Hungary in Australia and crashed in Malaysia.

So in 2007 and 2008 Kimi had two more tech failiures and one crash more than Massa. How come Massa lost more points than Kimi on tech?

Because "lost points" are not just counted by the plain number of retirements. Do the math.

Edited by HaPe, 05 January 2010 - 21:34.


#232 HaPe

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:38

Massa did not outperform Kimi 2008. They was very evenly matched. Hamilton hitting him in Canada and Kimi himself hitting the barriers at Spa brought Massa ahead.

:rotfl:

So Raikkonen was not ahead because he made a driver mistake. Pure Kimi. :cat:
And you forget totally that Massa lost alone 10 points with his engine blow in Hungary. ...and tht was jsut one thing from a lot of happenings that cost Masa valuable points (out of his control).

HaPe

#233 Hairpin

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:46

Because "lost points" are not just counted by the plain number of retirements. Do the math.

I did the math. Kimi lost 63 points at Ferrari due to no fault of his own and Massa only 4. So you are wrong.

#234 Seanspeed

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 23:18

Whats with all the arguing about ranking F1 drivers based on 'points per race' and whatnot? Has anybody learned that the amount of points available to a driver is based more on the car they're driving than their skill alone? And that points rarely tell the whole story? :well:

C'mon now.

I think the list isn't bad at all. I'd have it a bit different, but I think its quite fair and could see how somebody could easily justify it.

#235 giacomo

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 23:42

I did the math. Kimi lost 63 points at Ferrari due to no fault of his own and Massa only 4. So you are wrong.

How do you call this your style of doing the math? 'Indisputable proof'?  ;)

#236 Fiorentina 1

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 06:11

How is Lewis Hamilton the second best driver of the decade? Come on guys, would he be second if he wasn't a Brit? :rolleyes: WTF? :down:

#237 George Costanza

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 15:43

How is Lewis Hamilton the second best driver of the decade? Come on guys, would he be second if he wasn't a Brit? :rolleyes: WTF? :down:



Mika would beat Lewis fair and square....



#238 Atreiu

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 16:39

How is Lewis Hamilton the second best driver of the decade? Come on guys, would he be second if he wasn't a Brit? :rolleyes: WTF? :down:


It's not about simply being the best, how could you ever correctly measuire everyone's talent regardless of the shit boxes and rockets they drove? It's about having some sort of distinctive impact or influence within the decade. At least that's what think these lists should be about.

Forget his nationality.
He equaled Alonso in his rookie season and came withing reach of the title. You don't doubt Alonso's credentials and achievements, do you? His late errors may have cost him the title, but it still was a terrific season. He was champion in his second season (becomming the youngest WDC yet), a rare feat which he achieved without the blessing of a dominant or significantly quicker car (don't forget McLaren did NOT take the WCC, only Kimi having such a terrible mid-season kept things close in that fight). Then, in his 3rd season, he won two races with a polished turd and helped the team salvage 3rd in the WCC after being the laughing stock of the paddock for the first half of the year. And still, through these three seasons, there have been many remarkable and stunning drives, anyone could easily name half a dozen already.

2nd, 3rd, whatever; how many guys out there can you honestly single out as having done greater and bigger things through the decade?

Edited by Atreiu, 06 January 2010 - 16:46.


#239 Fiorentina 1

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 17:01

If the decade started in 2005, the list would look quite different. But it doesn't, so here is mine for 2000 to 2009:
1. Schumacher
2. Alonso
3. Raikkonen
4. Montoya
5. Hamilton
6. Barrichello
7. Button
8. Hakkinen
9. Massa
10.Fisichella

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#240 THE "driverider"

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 22:28

My Top 10 International Motorsport Competitors of the Decade
10. Jason Crump (since 2000 has been in the top 3 speedway grand prix and won it 3 times)
9. Colin McRae (huge loss, made his name on the world stage and even became an Amercian icon)
8. Danica Patrick (overcome the sexist comments to win in Japan, certainly shows females belong in motorsport)
7. Tom Kristensen (7 Le Mans wins this decade, TK became the new king of Le Mans)
6. Ricky Carmichael (an icon of motocross and supercross, dominant during the noughties)
5. Lewis Hamilton (young British talent been a winner since his first grand prix, a great idol for young karters)
4. Sebastien Loeb (started motor racing at 21 and has 6 world rally titles to his name)
3. Michael Schumacher (five consecutive world titles after a broken leg, returns to F1 at 41)
2. Valentino Rossi (500cc, 800cc, 990cc he won on all three and turned the Yamaha into championship winning bike)



AND THE WINNER IS...




1. ALEX ZANARDI (it's September 15 2001, Alex Zanardi loses both his legs in a horrific accident, career over! NO. Not only did he survive the accident, he walked again and finished the last 13 laps 2 years later. He then went on to win in the World Touring Car Championship and once again drove a Formula One car. He has never let the accident affect his career and has hopefully paved the way for disabled/handicapped drivers to compete in high level motorsport in the future.)

Edited by THE "driverider", 06 January 2010 - 22:28.