Jump to content


Photo

Kerb strikes and wave forms


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 GPD

GPD
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 03 January 2010 - 15:18

For a given application, is it possible to define the input of a kerb strike or single wheel high velocity motion? Looking at the raw suspension data essentially only gives you the response function of the
system which has been affected by springs, masses and damping coefficient.

Unsprung mass accelerometers would probably give a much better answer but I don't have that luxury. The response functions im looking at seem to be just a high freuency sine wave crossed with a trianglular wave so im not sure how i can really determine the actual frequency of the input.

In short im trying to approximate typical kerb strike frequency from displacement and time. I can do this with relative ease if i know what type of wave form it really is so any ideas?

Thanks :confused:

Advertisement

#2 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,448 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 03 January 2010 - 22:47

For a given application, is it possible to define the input of a kerb strike or single wheel high velocity motion? Looking at the raw suspension data essentially only gives you the response function of the
system which has been affected by springs, masses and damping coefficient.

Unsprung mass accelerometers would probably give a much better answer but I don't have that luxury. The response functions im looking at seem to be just a high freuency sine wave crossed with a trianglular wave so im not sure how i can really determine the actual frequency of the input.

In short im trying to approximate typical kerb strike frequency from displacement and time. I can do this with relative ease if i know what type of wave form it really is so any ideas?


Well, oddly enough you do have the unsprung mass motion, since the body is essentially fixed during the important part of a typical kerbstrike event (4-6 inch kerb, 40-kph). What instrumentation do you have?

However, I don't think the frequency domain is going to help you very much. What are you actually trying to do? The frequency domain is not very helpful for an event like this where the waveform is pretty much a half sine bump with some aftershocks(which should be at wheelhop).

I recently modelled a chuckhole type event (square edge pothole, 4 inches deep, thirty inches long) to home in on the correct suspension tune (springs, shocks, tire pressures) to meet the target for unsprung mass accelerations. A suspension tune for kerb impact as opposed to chuckholes would be quite different, and I suspect longitudinal recession would be useful, which my model didn't bother with. I had quite a lot of real data to play with, with different tire pressures, speeds, front and rear axle motion, and wheel sizes. So for the unknown factors, basically the penetration model for the tire, I set up all the experiments and did a Monte Carlo sim of the unknown factors to get the best correlation to the realworld data. My R^2 was around 0.85.

The most useful thing about building a model like that is not the model, it is that you then understand exactly what the system is doing in the event. In my case the trick was to stop the wheel falling down into the pothole in the first place, you don't have that luxury.



#3 DaveW

DaveW
  • Member

  • 431 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 04 January 2010 - 08:37

A complex question, the answer to which will depend upon the application.

If your objective is to define the contour of the kerb, then the most cost effective solution would be to survey the kerb directly. That idea is not necessarily very helpful, for reasons given later, but is useful because it highlights the fact that a kerb does not have a frequency response, as such. The "frequency content" of a kerb profile occurs only when a tyre is passes over the kerb at a given horizontal velocity [putting it crudely, dz/dt = (dz/dx)*(dx/dt)].

Having said that, the accuracy of results obtained from a mathematical model of a vehicle driven by a surveyed kerb profile will depend upon the accuracy of the tyre model (amongst other things), and experience suggests that this becomes increasingly problematical as the ratio of profile wavelength to tyre diameter reduces. This is because the forces transmitted to the hubs depend not only on the vertical tyre stiffness and damping properties, but also on the ability of the tyre to "wrap itself around" an obstacle (something Tony Matthews memorably proposed calling the tyre "cuddle factor", I recall).

The above is a preamble to stating that, if vehicle responses are used to reconstruct a kerb profile, the result (however comprehensive and accurate the measurements) will not normally be the actual kerb profile, but will be an amalgam of the profile and the vehicle model used in the reconstruction process. That is again a useful notion to keep in mind, because it can be helpful when trying to understand why model responses might no longer reflect actual responses if/when changes are made to vehicle parameters.

The next general point to be made is that springs and dampers are multi-functional. Greg provided an example of a vehicle (presumably a road vehicle) negotiating a "chuck hole". If he executed a spring, damper and unsprung mass parameter sweep, & his objective was to minimize the loads transmitted to the vehicle, then he would probably conclude that lower rate springs & bars were better, all damping should be in rebound (with no bump damping), & increased unsprung mass would be beneficial. The resulting set-up would probably not survive a subjective assessment because other ride and handling requirements would be adversely affected. In other words, discrete single inputs are just one of several conflicting requirements that must be satisfied when deciding upon an adequate suspension set-up.

Greg made an important point in his last paragraph: Understanding the effect of discrete inputs on vehicle response, and how that response can be manipulated, is probably more important than the ability to reconstruct a specific kerbing event (which would, in any case, be expected to vary from one lap to another). That idea might lead you to the conclusion that an idealized discrete input might be sufficient for your needs. If you agree, then you might decide that a "haversine" function of appropriate frequency, perhaps "phased" correctly between front & rear axles, would be suitable for your modelling requirements. The frequency of the function could be adjusted to excite, variously, sprung & unsprung mass modes (perhaps with an emphasis on sprung mass modes).



#4 DaveW

DaveW
  • Member

  • 431 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 04 January 2010 - 09:06

p.s. I should have mentioned that a driver can play an important role in determining the kerbing ability of a vehicle. Here is an example of da Matta negotiating a kerb in Mexico (I think). The vehicle was fitted with Dynamic Suspensions DSSV dampers. The picture shown was typical of his line through the particular corner during the race, which he won by a margin.

I'm not sure that a modelling exercise would have recommended either the line through the corner or the suspension set-up, & unsprung mass accelerometers would not have helped to reconstruct the profile of the kerb....



#5 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,448 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:29

Agree entirely, I guessed from the way he was talking he was discussing a durability event. There the kerb profile is easy to measure, and the required outcome is known.

3D circuit modelling is a whole nother game, in 20 years we should have it done. I'll be wormfeed by then.

One of my friends tells a funny story about working on a skidpan, the (disparaged) engineers predicted X g from a given set of tires, a redblooded driver jumped into the car and blasted round at X+20%, tail out. Neat, but not necessarily relevant (if the engine was less powerful were the tires less effective? no).

#6 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 2,381 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:54

Here in the UK the road surfaces are deteriorating very fast, broken surfaces, potholes and longditudinal rutting is appearing everywhere despite a mild climate.It is basically years of neglect by the road authorities plus ( maybe ) bigger cars and trucks. The obession with low profile tyres means pothole damage is not just to tyres but is causing broken wheels as well.

Anyway the roads around my house are looking more like Detroit every day with sharp edged potholes. I seem to recall there was an old US carmaker test of repaetedly hiting a 10" deep pothole (a la Detroit) to test suspension durabilty.Ffollowing on from Greg's post would having to meet these kind of pothole stress tests with a suspension mean having to trade off on the normal handling performance. I never worried about my '75 Chevy wagon absorbing pothole hits but it certainly did not handle too good. similarly the old Renault R4 could also handle rough roads brilliantly despite its flimsy build because the wheel rates were so low and the wheel travel so long that the bodyshell never got any high vertical loads fed into it, but again it did not handle too great.

So or a country with really poor roads will "pothole defence" force a trade off in handling or even tyre profile ratios?

#7 DaveW

DaveW
  • Member

  • 431 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 04 January 2010 - 12:14

Here in the UK the road surfaces are deteriorating very fast, broken surfaces, potholes and longditudinal rutting is appearing everywhere despite a mild climate.It is basically years of neglect by the road authorities plus ( maybe ) bigger cars and trucks. The obession with low profile tyres means pothole damage is not just to tyres but is causing broken wheels as well.

Anyway the roads around my house are looking more like Detroit every day with sharp edged potholes. I seem to recall there was an old US carmaker test of repaetedly hiting a 10" deep pothole (a la Detroit) to test suspension durabilty.Ffollowing on from Greg's post would having to meet these kind of pothole stress tests with a suspension mean having to trade off on the normal handling performance. I never worried about my '75 Chevy wagon absorbing pothole hits but it certainly did not handle too good. similarly the old Renault R4 could also handle rough roads brilliantly despite its flimsy build because the wheel rates were so low and the wheel travel so long that the bodyshell never got any high vertical loads fed into it, but again it did not handle too great.

So or a country with really poor roads will "pothole defence" force a trade off in handling or even tyre profile ratios?

You are absolutely correct. At least one OEM has "UK only" set-up specs. I am ashamed to say that the state of UK roads is an utter disgrace but is, I suppose, consistent with the spreading habit of scattering artificial hazards around urban (& not so urban) roads "to improve road safety". I wonder how long will it be before a pedestrian armed with red flag & machete is required to lead every vehicle through the jungle?



#8 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,448 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 04 January 2010 - 21:20

Every car company I have worked for has had a test that basically involves braking into a large square edged pothole. This is designed to rip the front suspension out of the car.

The pass criteria do vary a bit, and certainly these days the wheels themselves are toast. We used to have to be able to drive the car back to the workshop.

One very visible measure of the standard of roads is the number of wheels you bend, and the number of plies you need in the sidewalls of tires. Typically our wheel rims have to be 10-15% thicker than Japanese or European ones.

The suspension tune can get compromised to pass this test, but I think ride suffers more than handling.





#9 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,200 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 04 January 2010 - 23:40

Here in the UK the road surfaces are deteriorating very fast, broken surfaces, potholes and longditudinal rutting is appearing everywhere despite a mild climate.It is basically years of neglect by the road authorities plus ( maybe ) bigger cars and trucks. The obession with low profile tyres means pothole damage is not just to tyres but is causing broken wheels as well.

Anyway the roads around my house are looking more like Detroit every day with sharp edged potholes. I seem to recall there was an old US carmaker test of repaetedly hiting a 10" deep pothole (a la Detroit) to test suspension durabilty.Ffollowing on from Greg's post would having to meet these kind of pothole stress tests with a suspension mean having to trade off on the normal handling performance. I never worried about my '75 Chevy wagon absorbing pothole hits but it certainly did not handle too good. similarly the old Renault R4 could also handle rough roads brilliantly despite its flimsy build because the wheel rates were so low and the wheel travel so long that the bodyshell never got any high vertical loads fed into it, but again it did not handle too great.

So or a country with really poor roads will "pothole defence" force a trade off in handling or even tyre profile ratios?

As a repairer I am regularly seeing the results of the obsession with low profile tyres. Every second car with 50 and lower profiles have at least out of round rims.
Had a Ford Focus here recently that I saved 2 out of 5 rims, and that a 22000km car.
Personally I hate the bloody things, the ride is so bad and the suspension damage is very real. My own driver I have replaced the 17s with 16s and 60 series tyres, the car is quieter, rides and steers better, does not tram track in the grooves. Even then it could be better! I lose a little ultimate smooth road grip but who cares. It seems I seldom drive on smooth roads anyway, just patched broken ones with grooves from the trucks.
And that is on a double wishbone Falcon, unlike most cars which have inferior struts with exacbarate the problems.


#10 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,594 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 05 January 2010 - 06:15

My own driver I have replaced the 17s with 16s and 60 series tyres, the car is quieter, rides and steers better, does not tram track in the grooves.


I've always felt that a 60 series aspect ratio was a pretty good compromise for a road car. I don't get the fascination with lower and lower profiles. Why would you want a 35 aspect ratio on a street car? Who knows, but they're out there.

#11 Grumbles

Grumbles
  • Member

  • 326 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 05 January 2010 - 09:22

I've always felt that a 60 series aspect ratio was a pretty good compromise for a road car. I don't get the fascination with lower and lower profiles. Why would you want a 35 aspect ratio on a street car?.....


For the same reason that some run ridiculous amounts of negative camber - they seem to think it looks cool.

#12 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,200 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 05 January 2010 - 09:52

I've always felt that a 60 series aspect ratio was a pretty good compromise for a road car. I don't get the fascination with lower and lower profiles. Why would you want a 35 aspect ratio on a street car? Who knows, but they're out there.

I agree totally. The wank factor of huge wheels with no wall height 'coz it looks cool' is part of it. But buy most modern cars with a remote performance factor and they have 40-50% factor tyres from new.And some smaller! But usually small brakes inside them!
My aforementioned customer Focus is 195x50x15 as a standard base model car. Silly really and ultimatly dangerous.So many of that type car getting around with 4 square wheels.

Top Gear Australia did a test on a special performance model Holden Commodore with 20" rims, big HP engine etc. The model below it with 18" rims was faster around their test track because it had far more grip.
And both ride like drays and tramtrack all over the road!
As for ride quality my 100 series Landcruiser rides a damn site better than the Falcon. Though the Ford handles a lot better ofcourse!! Though older 4WD s you needed a kidney belt to drive long distances.