79 replies to this topic

[brabham bt50]

In 1991 Nelson Piquet ( Sr ) did beat his teammate Michael Schumacher in their mutual F1 races as teammates for the
Benetton-F1 team with 4,5 to 4 points. If you include the Belgian GP of 1991 which both contested, although not as
teammates, Nelson Piquet did beat Schumi with 8,5 points to 4 in 1991.

Since then no teammate from Schumacher, racing the same GP races in F1 as Schumi during the year, did beat
him on points.

Will his new teammate Rosberg succeed in 2010 to be the first teammate of Schumacher since and after Nelson
Piquet to beat him on points ?

Edited by brabham bt50, 03 January 2010 - 20:55.

[Galko877]

And why did you need to open a new topic for this?

http://forums.autosp...w...0&start=160

[brabham bt50]

And why did you need to open a new topic for this?

http://forums.autosp...w...0&start=160

It is a specific questions concerning points after the 2010 F1 season, not how good Schumi is or how bad Rosberg ( in practise or
qualy or PR or politics ).

We will know the answer to my question after the 2010 F1 season, the tread Schumi vs Rosberg on the other hand
can perhaps continue for years.

[Rob]

At Jordan, de Cesaris beat him. 0 points each, but on countback, de Cesaris takes it with a 13th place finish.

[ensign14]

And why did you need to open a new topic for this?

The clue is in the question.

[GiancarloF1]

In 1991 Nelson Piquet ( Sr ) did beat his teammate Michael Schumacher in their mutual F1 races as teammates for the
Benetton-F1 team with 4,5 to 4 points. If you include the Belgian GP of 1991 which both contested, although not as
teammates, Nelson Piquet did beat Schumi with 8,5 points to 4 in 1991.

Since then no teammate from Schumacher, racing the same GP races in F1 as Schumi during the year, did beat
him on points.

Will his new teammate Rosberg succeed in 2010 to be the first teammate of Schumacher since and after Nelson
Piquet to beat him on points ?

Piquet did beat Schumacher?
What a misleading title.

Anyway, no.

[ryan86]

Irvine scored two more points than Michael in the races they contested in 1999, though Michael would have scored more without Malaysia.

[brabham bt50]

Irvine scored two more points than Michael in the races they contested in 1999, though Michael would have scored more without Malaysia.

Was it in 1999 that Schumi broke his leg, and did not contest a few GP's which Irvine did race ?

[e34fanatic]

At Jordan, de Cesaris beat him. 0 points each, but on countback, de Cesaris takes it with a 13th place finish.

Well, actually de Cesaris didn´t finish as his engine blew while running 2nd place. Rather he was classified 13th as the retirement came so near the finish!
;-)
'

[ensign14]

Was it in 1999 that Schumi broke his leg, and did not contest a few GP's which Irvine did race ?

Yes, Schumacher scored 44 points in 10 races, Irvine 74 in 16. Following the British GP, the last race for both drivers, Irvine and Schumacher were level on points. In the final two races, Schumacher scored 12, Irvine 14. So technically Irvine beat Schumacher in the races they were together.

The position is complicated by team orders, which worked both ways - they cost Irvine at France, Schumacher at Malaysia.

[aditya-now]

Yes, Schumacher scored 44 points in 10 races, Irvine 74 in 16. Following the British GP, the last race for both drivers, Irvine and Schumacher were level on points. In the final two races, Schumacher scored 12, Irvine 14. So technically Irvine beat Schumacher in the races they were together.

The position is complicated by team orders, which worked both ways - they cost Irvine at France, Schumacher at Malaysia.

So there you have it, BrabhamBT50, not only Piquet beat Schumacher on points in a season in 1991, but also Eddie Irvine beat Schumacher on points in 1999, counting the races in which they both raced.

I remember a rather competitive season from Irvine in 1999 with the Ferrari crew doing everything they could to make him lose the title (remember the pitstop when they had only three tyres for Irvine!!!). Because the travesty was not supposed to happen, that Eddie Irvine should become the first Ferrari-WDC, and not Schumacher....

And yes, Nico Rosberg will become the third driver to beat Schumacher on points in a season.

Edited by aditya-now, 04 January 2010 - 09:57.

[pUs]

I remember a rather competitive season from Irvine in 1999 with the Ferrari crew doing everything they could to make him lose the title (remember the pitstop when they had only three tyres for Irvine!!!). Because the travesty was not supposed to happen, that Eddie Irvine should become the first Ferrari-WDC, and not Schumacher....

Eddie really was competitive that year. Most people just remember the race in Malaysia or Mika Salo moving over in Hockenheim, but Eddie did put himself in that position by being closer than ever to Michael before his accident. Perhaps closer then any later team-mate ever was, in terms of consistency.

[ensign14]

Close enough to force Schumacher to make a mistake when overtaking him at Silverstone? Hm.

[carbonfibre]

So there you have it, BrabhamBT50, not only Piquet beat Schumacher on points in a season in 1991, but also Eddie Irvine beat Schumacher on points in 1999, counting the races in which they both raced.

I remember a rather competitive season from Irvine in 1999 with the Ferrari crew doing everything they could to make him lose the title (remember the pitstop when they had only three tyres for Irvine!!!). Because the travesty was not supposed to happen, that Eddie Irvine should become the first Ferrari-WDC, and not Schumacher....

And yes, Nico Rosberg will become the third driver to beat Schumacher on points in a season.

And you seriously think Irvine would have beaten Michael in 1999 if Michael hadn't broken his leg?

[Group B]

I remember a rather competitive season from Irvine in 1999 with the Ferrari crew doing everything they could to make him lose the title (remember the pitstop when they had only three tyres for Irvine!!!). Because the travesty was not supposed to happen, that Eddie Irvine should become the first Ferrari-WDC, and not Schumacher....

[aditya-now]

Close enough to force Schumacher to make a mistake when overtaking him at Silverstone? Hm.

Was Silverstone 1999 a driving mistake by Michael? I always thought that his brakes had failed on him...

Anyway, pUs, agree with you totally. Irvine was a joy to watch in 1999.
So it was his last year with Michael.....the robust Irishman got replaced by a gentle, easier-to-handle Brazilian instead.

[aditya-now]

And you seriously think Irvine would have beaten Michael in 1999 if Michael hadn't broken his leg?

I was not saying that, I only mentioned that Irvine was closer in 1999 to Schumi than any other team mate (and duly got replaced!).
In the races they both contested together Irvine beat Schumi on points.

These are the facts, all the rest is speculation. Which also proves the thesis of the OP wrong, Piquet was not the only one to beat Schumi on points.

[Gilles4Ever]

So there you have it, BrabhamBT50, not only Piquet beat Schumacher on points in a season in 1991, but also Eddie Irvine beat Schumacher on points in 1999, counting the races in which they both raced.

I remember a rather competitive season from Irvine in 1999 with the Ferrari crew doing everything they could to make him lose the title (remember the pitstop when they had only three tyres for Irvine!!!). Because the travesty was not supposed to happen, that Eddie Irvine should become the first Ferrari-WDC, and not Schumacher....

And yes, Nico Rosberg will become the third driver to beat Schumacher on points in a season.

RE Michael and Eddie.
If Michael hadn't gifted him the win in Malaysia he would have finished 2 points ahead of him in the races they both competed in

[JtP1]

Close enough to force Schumacher to make a mistake when overtaking him at Silverstone? Hm.

Silverstone was put down to a loose brake union and certainly looked like no rear brakes. Are you saying that is inaccurate?

As for Malaysia. Irvine would have finished 3rd at best if Schumacher hadn't held up Hakkinen. Best comment of the year was Irvine complaining in Japan that MS hadn't beaten Hakkinen to make Eddie DWC.

[potmotr]

At Jordan, de Cesaris beat him. 0 points each, but on countback, de Cesaris takes it with a 13th place finish.

There you go!

Andrea the giant killer.

There's actually a great quote from Andrea about his one race with Schumacher, talking about the German's speed"

"I'm glad he left because he was a pain in the arse."

[aditya-now]

comment of the year was Irvine complaining in Japan that MS hadn't beaten Hakkinen to make Eddie DWC.

As to Gilles4Ever: I am quite aware of the fact that Michael would have had the upper hand on Eddie, yet the Ferrari team rationale demanded Malaysia being fought out like this. And also this is part of racing results - what enters the record books in the end is the sheer numbers.

Michael can´t complain in that department either, more often than not he was the one who profited from "team rationale" - take Austria 2002 for example, when Rubens clearly had the upper hand on Michael...

[ensign14]

Silverstone was put down to a loose brake union and certainly looked like no rear brakes. Are you saying that is inaccurate?

Let's say I'm a bit suspicious. How many times have teams blamed something for a failure when it turns out not to be the case? After all, Peugeot claimed this was not an engine failure.

[TT6]

I really hate to interrupt you nostalgia trip into nineties, but I think Rosberg will beat Schumacher in points and in qualifying results, because Schumi has been away for too long. And because Rosberg may well be better than he is credited for.

[sir jackie walker]

I remember a rather competitive season from Irvine in 1999 with the Ferrari crew doing everything they could to make him lose the title (remember the pitstop when they had only three tyres for Irvine!!!). Because the travesty was not supposed to happen, that Eddie Irvine should become the first Ferrari-WDC, and not Schumacher....

Hmmm, I thought it was McLaren & DC (and Mika himself on Italian soil) that tried to prevent Mika from winning... Like tyre desevering in British GP, puncture in German GP, DC brainfade in Austrian GP, or bad strategic call in European GP.

50% of career wins by team order. And they say Schumi benefited...
/offtopic

Yes, Nico has a fair chance of becoming the 3rd driver to beat Schumi on points. (I think de Crasheris shouldn't be included, because they both had 0 pts = championship NC on '91 rules). It depends on how quickly MS can get up to the speed.

[Ruf]

Actually 1999 looked like a championship that noone really wanted to win. That includes blunders from everyone, Jordan included who at some point looked like they too have a chance.

About the 3 wheels conspiracy theories. The team were ready for Irvine (that meant all 4 wheels and fuel) however before he could came to pits Mika Salo crashed into someone and he barged into pits first. That meant that the pitcrew had to take Eddie's tyres throw them out of the way then get ready for Salo with 4 wheels plus a nosecone, service his car then get ready for Eddie again. All that done in a few seconds. It's easy to make a mistake in such conditions. Anyone thinking that Ferrari (including Jean Todt) didn't really want to win that championship is delusional. You could give them a bit more credit than that; if they wanted to screw Eddie they surely could have come up with a better scheme, no?

[Simon Says]

So there you have it, BrabhamBT50, not only Piquet beat Schumacher on points in a season in 1991, but also Eddie Irvine beat Schumacher on points in 1999, counting the races in which they both raced.

I remember a rather competitive season from Irvine in 1999 with the Ferrari crew doing everything they could to make him lose the title (remember the pitstop when they had only three tyres for Irvine!!!). Because the travesty was not supposed to happen, that Eddie Irvine should become the first Ferrari-WDC, and not Schumacher....

And yes, Nico Rosberg will become the third driver to beat Schumacher on points in a season.

No way. Rosberg will never beat MS. He'll do some stupid mistakes like driving over the white line even if he has got the speed

edit: I'm just not impressed with Nico. He had a good car sometimes but failed to transfer his qualifing into points, especially at the beginning of the season. Maybe he'll proof me wrong in 2010

Edited by Simon Says, 04 January 2010 - 14:33.

[Aloisioitaly]

In 1991 Schumi was a rookie, plus he joined Benetton in August...

[blizzzzard]

Guys, don't bet on Rosberg beating Schumacher. He is not that good. First, we need some dominant, impressive races from him against a strong teammate. I don't remember any - even against weak teammates.

Edited by blizzzzard, 04 January 2010 - 14:43.

[robracer]

Guys, don't bet on Rosberg beating Schumacher. He is not that good. First, we need some dominant, impressive races from him against a strong teammate. I don't remember any - even against weak teammates.

I remember plenty, pretty much every race of 2009.

[TT6]

I remember plenty, pretty much every race of 2009.

But against strong team mate?

[Lamag]

Who is the guy that contract drivers for Williams? Rosberg?

I think Rosberg is going to have a very strong season in 2010 not only againts Michael, also againts anyone.

He is young driver that spend four years in a team that is currently a middle field team and he had delivered with what Williams had put on his hands for many years.

I dont know if Rosberg at the end of the season will be in front of Michael in the WDC, but I think that he can do a very good job and win at least two races.

So lets wait and see what happen.

[maccaFTW]

It's completely unfair to compare Schumacher, the kid in his first handful of races of his career, to Piquet, a driver with more than a decade of experience in F1, in the 1991 season.

Rosberg might do it if Schumacher's age is really a factor. That said, I don't think Schumacher's age is really a factor.

Rosberg's proven to be a good driver, but nothing spectacular. Sure, he had a mid-pack car at Williams, but he never delivered a truly spectacular performance like the kind we saw from Vettel at Toro Rosso, or from Hamilton this year when he did things in the MP4-24 that the car shouldn't have done. He did have one "WOW" moment this year, which was his lap in Q2 at Singapore, but beyond that, he's basically taken what the car and circumstances would give him.

[Simon Says]

It's completely unfair to compare Schumacher, the kid in his first handful of races of his career, to Piquet, a driver with more than a decade of experience in F1, in the 1991 season.

Rosberg might do it if Schumacher's age is really a factor. That said, I don't think Schumacher's age is really a factor.

Rosberg's proven to be a good driver, but nothing spectacular. Sure, he had a mid-pack car at Williams, but he never delivered a truly spectacular performance like the kind we saw from Vettel at Toro Rosso, or from Hamilton this year when he did things in the MP4-24 that the car shouldn't have done. He did have one "WOW" moment this year, which was his lap in Q2 at Singapore, but beyond that, he's basically taken what the car and circumstances would give him.

MS was no kid, he was 24 years old or something when he entered F1. He was racing sportcars with over 1000 hp so he was far better prepared than let's say Lewis? F1 was actually easier then sportscars back then because they had more power and less downforce.

edit: But I don't see Rosberg beating MS to be honest.

Edited by Simon Says, 04 January 2010 - 16:49.

[robracer]

But against strong team mate?

You can't blame Rosberg for not having a strong teammate, blame Williams.

We'll see what Nico Rosberg is really made of this year against the legend, even though the legend is old and has been retired for the last 3 years.

Edited by robracer, 04 January 2010 - 17:05.

[Muz Bee]

You can't blame Rosberg for not having a strong teammate, blame Williams.

We'll see what Nico Rosberg is really made of this year against the legend, even though the legend is old and has been retired for the last 3 years.

Agree. All the "mistakes" that Rosberg made last year (does one make the cut for plural) and not beating a teammate who is slow (unproven) by enough means some will never accept Nico, just like some still don't even rate Lewis . If Nico beats his teammate this year then, oh well, it will be because Schumacher is finished - you can't argue against a lack of logic by some people because they can't employ logic.

Fact is Nico has not had a car and teammates who make it possible to draw much of a conclusion how fast he is. If Michael trounces him we will have some idea that he isn't top drawer even if MS dominates the development of the RB1. I still think Rosberg may have some surprises for them, he was hugely impressive in his first few races in 2006 until the Williams faded from competitiveness. I'd bet a few bucks on Nico, never the farm.

[skinnyman]

MS was no kid, he was 24 years old or something when he entered F1. He was racing sportcars with over 1000 hp so he was far better prepared than let's say Lewis? F1 was actually easier then sportscars back then because they had more power and less downforce.

edit: But I don't see Rosberg beating MS to be honest.

22 and "better prepared than Lewis" is total crap

[rookie]

Fact is Nico has not had a car and teammates who make it possible to draw much of a conclusion how fast he is. If Michael trounces him we will have some idea that he isn't top drawer even if MS dominates the development of the RB1. I still think Rosberg may have some surprises for them, he was hugely impressive in his first few races in 2006 until the Williams faded from competitiveness. I'd bet a few bucks on Nico, never the farm.

That's the thing about Nico though, you have to go back 4 years to his first 2 races to find the last wow moment...06 Bahrain race and malaysia qualy we're excellent for him and that's about it. Solid driver, no real genius shining through IMO.

I feel for him, he's in a no win situation really with MS, hopefully he can win some races this year. On Topic - No I don't think he will score more points than Schuey. it will be barrichello part 2, occasionaly beating, sometimes challenging, mostly beaten.

[cheapracer]

MS was no kid, he was 24 years old or something when he entered F1. He was racing sportcars with over 1000 hp so he was far better prepared than let's say Lewis? F1 was actually easier then sportscars back then because they had more power and less downforce.

edit: But I don't see Rosberg beating MS to be honest.

Sports Cars at about 10 seconds per lap slower than F1 are by far easier to drive according to Mark Webber when he made the transition.

Lewis jumped from GP2 to F1, a natural transition and Schumacher didn't have a prior test program virtually starting F1 racing cold.

22 years old is a kid when you're staring 50 in the face

[Simon Says]

Sports Cars at about 10 seconds per lap slower than F1 are by far easier to drive according to Mark Webber when he made the transition.

Lewis jumped from GP2 to F1, a natural transition and Schumacher didn't have a prior test program virtually starting F1 racing cold.

22 years old is a kid when you're staring 50 in the face

These were MS his own words back then when he joined F1, that he didn't find F1 cars hard to drive because the sportcars he was racing were more powerfull than F1 cars in combination with less downforce and longer breaking distances.

And you can't compare the weak sportcars Webber was racing to Group C that MS was racing, Group C was just as big as F1 back then with cars that were more powerfull than F1, something that GP2 never is and never will be ;)

edit: Unless you're 19 years old never experienced such power F1 cars have to offer, then you're a kid. But Group C was definetly a level beyond F3000/GP2 back then, it was equal to F1 untill it got killed by rules changes.

Edited by Simon Says, 08 January 2010 - 09:23.

[LoudHoward]

This thread is for the lulz right?

I'll weigh in though because I like a good laugh. Considering Irvine and Schumacher in '99, perhaps one may think that Silverstone is not counted as a start for Michael. The race was red flagged so did he really start in the race proper? Hrm.

Michael well prepared for F1? He'd done like 20 laps of the Silverstone club circuit in an F1 before Spa hadn't he lol?

[LuckyStrike1]

Eddie really was competitive that year. Most people just remember the race in Malaysia or Mika Salo moving over in Hockenheim, but Eddie did put himself in that position by being closer than ever to Michael before his accident. Perhaps closer then any later team-mate ever was, in terms of consistency.

Don't forget Rubens Barrichello. He ran Schumacher closer than Eddie Irvine never did, Rubens was really good at Ferrari and would Schumacher have broken his leg during one of those seasons, I seriously believe Rubens would have been World Champion.

[Claudius]

The usual suspects as usual making their presence known in a MS thread.
Next I see a thread "Irvine better than MS". We already "know" that Ross is better than Michael...


Anyway, I don't think the situation between MS in 91 and Nico in 10 is comparable. Nico is in a slightly better position.
He is no rookie (4 years F1 experience), both are new in the team and MS has not been driving for 3 years.
While MS jumped in in a middle of a season with no F1 experiance whatsoever (he didn't race in Spa with the Jordan) and still matched Piquet.

Having said that, if Nico can match MS during the whole season I'll be impressed.

[mimin]

These were MS his own words back then when he joined F1, that he didn't find F1 cars hard to drive because the sportcars he was racing were more powerfull than F1 cars in combination with less downforce and longer breaking distances.

And you can't compare the weak sportcars Webber was racing to Group C that MS was racing, Group C was just as big as F1 back then with cars that were more powerfull than F1, something that GP2 never is and never will be ;)

edit: Unless you're 19 years old never experienced such power F1 cars have to offer, then you're a kid. But Group C was definetly a level beyond F3000/GP2 back then, it was equal to F1 untill it got killed by rules changes.

MS was 22 yrs old when he started F1.

[Trust]

MS was 22 yrs old when he started F1.

Why we are even discussing this? Schumacher will have number one status from the beginning, so it means he will beat Rosberg.

[Group B]

Why we are even discussing this? Schumacher will have number one status from the beginning, so it means he will beat Rosberg.

Er, if you're implying that MS will only beat Rosberg because of having #1 status then it follows that Michael would otherwise slower than NR, which begs the question why would the team sabotage their own season by favouring their worse driver?

[Dunc]

Whilst I don't think MS will be the force he once was, I'm pretty sure Nico isn't going to be able to get the better of him over a season. A tie is about the best he can hope for.

[Sisplatin]

Yes, Schumacher scored 44 points in 10 races, Irvine 74 in 16. Following the British GP, the last race for both drivers, Irvine and Schumacher were level on points. In the final two races, Schumacher scored 12, Irvine 14. So technically Irvine beat Schumacher in the races they were together.

The position is complicated by team orders, which worked both ways - they cost Irvine at France, Schumacher at Malaysia.

didnt Schumy concede his Win to Irvine at Malaysian GP?

[HaPe]

Yes, Schumacher scored 44 points in 10 races, Irvine 74 in 16. Following the British GP, the last race for both drivers, Irvine and Schumacher were level on points. In the final two races, Schumacher scored 12, Irvine 14. So technically Irvine beat Schumacher in the races they were together.

The position is complicated by team orders, which worked both ways - they cost Irvine at France, Schumacher at Malaysia.

Technically, Schumacher didnt compete in the British GP, so its 44 points in 9 races for him.
And its has to be noted, that the teamorder cost MSC far more points than Eddie.

This claim is as ridiculous as the one from the opener that Piquet beat Schumacher by points. While this is true in plain numbers, its not the case when you look at the circumstances, e.g. the engine blow for Schumacher in Japan, which alone would have turned the tide.

[ensign14]

Technically, Schumacher didnt compete in the British GP, so its 44 points in 9 races for him.

That broken leg was an illusion then?

[HaPe]

That broken leg was an illusion then?

He (eventually!) didnt compete in the GP because he broke his leg in the first lap after the first race start.
As easy as that. or?!

BTW: If you look at score boards about the race you will find for "classification"
3 M.Schumacher Ferrari 0 - Not started

Edited by HaPe, 08 January 2010 - 14:55.