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Is Massa destined to be Ferrari's number two driver?


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#1 incredulo64

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 01:56

I believe that Alonso's move to Ferrari comes from the feeling that Massa hasn´t got the right stuff to be WDC. If not why would they hire him? It makes no sense.

Time has proven that the way to win championships is supporting one driver over the other and Ferrari knows that. Schumi won five championships having a non-competitive partner. So did Alonso, and Lewis, even Jenson this year. Equal status is sure way to disaster as 2007 proved. It still puzzles me why McLaren has forgotten that lesson bringing two WDC together.

I have read several posts where it is said that Ferrari is making a mistake bringing Alonso in after his track record in McLaren. That he won’t be able to learn how to be a team player. That Ferrari is in for a world of hurt as soon as things don´t go Alonso´s way. Why should that happen? Make him number one, give him a car able to win the championship and he will provide. He has proven that his capable of doing that three times. Or do you believe that if they hadn´t make him number one in McLaren that championship would have been lost? No way. Neither would have Lewis. And that´s the lesson being Ferrari I would learn from that year. Not that they need to be reminded. Equal treatment is PR bullshit.

So my feeling is that Massa, unless he completely annihilates Alonso, is destined to be number two if there is a chance that Ferrari could win the WDC with any of his two drivers.

Imagine the scenario: half of the season is over and both Alonso and Massa have the same amount of points and are fighting for the WDC against, let's be obvious, Schumi and Lewis. What do you think Ferrari would do?

I apologize for my poor English and I assure you that I don´t want to open a thread to demerit Massa, but I believe that he is in for a very tough year.


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#2 J2NH

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 02:12

Welcome to the board incredulo64.

I would imagine that Alonso fans will agree with you.

I would imagine that Massa fans will disagree with you.

I would also imagine that Ferrari fans are more worried about whether Ferrari can deliver a race winning capable car this year.

Personally, since FA and FM have no history it will have to be settled on the track and that is, after all, why we watch.

#3 Demo.

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 02:12

I believe that Alonso's move to Ferrari comes from the feeling that Massa hasn´t got the right stuff to be WDC. If not why would they hire him? It makes no sense.

Time has proven that the way to win championships is supporting one driver over the other and Ferrari knows that. Schumi won five championships having a non-competitive partner. So did Alonso, and Lewis, even Jenson this year. Equal status is sure way to disaster as 2007 proved. It still puzzles me why McLaren has forgotten that lesson bringing two WDC together.

I have read several posts where it is said that Ferrari is making a mistake bringing Alonso in after his track record in McLaren. That he won't be able to learn how to be a team player. That Ferrari is in for a world of hurt as soon as things don´t go Alonso´s way. Why should that happen? Make him number one, give him a car able to win the championship and he will provide. He has proven that his capable of doing that three times. Or do you believe that if they hadn´t make him number one in McLaren that championship would have been lost? No way. Neither would have Lewis. And that´s the lesson being Ferrari I would learn from that year. Not that they need to be reminded. Equal treatment is PR bullshit.

So my feeling is that Massa, unless he completely annihilates Alonso, is destined to be number two if there is a chance that Ferrari could win the WDC with any of his two drivers.

Imagine the scenario: half of the season is over and both Alonso and Massa have the same amount of points and are fighting for the WDC against, let's be obvious, Schumi and Lewis. What do you think Ferrari would do?

I apologize for my poor English and I assure you that I don´t want to open a thread to demerit Massa, but I believe that he is in for a very tough year.


but all the Ferrari fans will tell you Ferrari dont favour a driver until he is in front in the championship

#4 tkulla

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 02:22

That's true in the recent era, but I don't believe that was the case in the Schumacher era. The question is whether they revert back to what was a very successful formula (even if it was universally derided by fans who appreciate fair play).

#5 J2NH

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 02:34

That's true in the recent era, but I don't believe that was the case in the Schumacher era. The question is whether they revert back to what was a very successful formula (even if it was universally derided by fans who appreciate fair play).


Way to many unknowns for Ferrari to make that mistake. They will concentrate on the car and let the drivers earn their status on the track. Again, with no history between FA and FM, it is pointless to speculate which driver will come out on top.


#6 seltaeb

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 02:54

Then there's the added question mark of Felipe Massa's condition and competitiveness for next year. Who knows if he will be on his own top form after his accident. I am hoping that he is, just because it'd be great to see a driver make such a comeback, but with that in mind, I feel that he's already got the odds against him in matching Alonso.

Edited by seltaeb, 04 January 2010 - 02:54.


#7 F1 Tor.

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 03:19

Who knows? 2010 car, new rules, consistency, mind games, luck-there are so many factors to consider. Massa will want to prove himself against a 2-time champ and Alonso won't want a repeat like his time at Mac where he gets pushed big time from his teammate.

#8 Turbo4

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 03:20

yes

#9 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 04:23

I believe that Alonso's move to Ferrari comes from the feeling that Massa hasn´t got the right stuff to be WDC. If not why would they hire him? It makes no sense.

Ferrari is like any other team: they have to take the best two drivers available to them. The difference between Ferrari and the other teams is that Ferrari gets the first bite at the apple. If they laced cnfidence in Massa, they never would have retained him.

#10 Lazy Prodigy

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 04:49

I think if Massa is faster Alonso could become #2. Seems like who is ever faster at the time becomes number 1 after about half way in the season. Besides Felipe seems really well liked by the team, I dont know if you can say the same for Alonso till you see him race and how he interacts. Kimi was popular in the team but you would never know it watching from a distance.

Edited by Lazy Prodigy, 04 January 2010 - 04:49.


#11 mistergagaX

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 07:11

Make him number one, give him a car able to win the championship and he will provide.


that's the problem with Alonso and his fans right there. they both expect to get everything handed to them on a silver platter !

If Alonso wants his no 1 status well then he is going have to earn it himself the hard way ! He is going to have to work his ass off. He is going to have to beat Massa and outdrive him from the get-go , week-in week-out .... Schumacher earned his no 1 status at Ferrari becuase he was the hardest working SOB driver in F1 ... Period.

Yeah congradulations if Alonso has won 2 wdc's in the past , but what have you done for me lately ??

Alonso is just another number at Ferrari and IF he delivers well then maybe he'll get his number 1 status over Massa but It will never happen in a million years becuase Felipe is simply not called Giancarlo nor is he called Nelson Jr ...

#12 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 07:18

that's the problem with Alonso and his fans right there. they both expect to get everything handed to them on a silver platter !

If Alonso wants his no 1 status well then he is going have to earn it himself the hard way ! He is going to have to work his ass off. He is going to have to beat Massa and outdrive him from the get-go , week-in week-out .... Schumacher earned his no 1 status at Ferrari becuase he was the hardest working SOB driver in F1 ... Period.

Yeah congradulations if Alonso has won 2 wdc's in the past , but what have you done for me lately ??

Alonso is just another number at Ferrari and IF he delivers well then maybe he'll get his number 1 status over Massa but It will never happen in a million years becuase Felipe is simply not called Giancarlo nor is he called Nelson Jr ...

I agree - Ferrari's post-Schumacher policy seems to have been to let their drivers decide who is going to be number one by supporting both of them until one of them is out of the running or both are in the running but one is an outside chance.

I don't think we'll see a repeat of 2007. Alonso has matured a lot since then. I think his issues stemmed less from the fact that he wasn't getting preferential treatment from McLaren and had more to do with the fact that it was a rookie driver who was (seemingly) getting that he was looking for. I also believe a lot of it was blown way out of proportion by the British and Spanish press.

#13 Monad

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 07:27

From the few things that i picked up from a few interviews from Domenicali it seems that Massa is already number 2. Ferrari will give all there support to Alonso from the start something that will make Massa's job very difficult even if he wants to fight against the Spaniard.
Alonso already got all the promises he couldn't get at Mclaren.
If there is gonna be friction in the Ferrari garage it depends on how Massa will accept that Alonso is number 1. Is he gonna play his Barichello role quietly, or is he gonna fight it. If he fights it then he could find himself against the team and may see the exit door from Ferrari. If he finds a way to win Alonso in the track despite getting less support, it will be a small miracle and then he might have a hope of not staying number 2 and not see the exit door since Alonso will go all crazy and obnoxious and start blaming the team, the stars, the sushi chef , thinking that maybe they are lying to him and all that, with the resold of Alonso exiting Ferrari the same way he did at Mclaren.

#14 WebBerK

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 07:31

Things change and I think it will be decided by tires:

> Will Michelonso adapt to the BS tires at Ferrari ?
> Which brand of tire [characteristics] will take over from 2011 and on ?

Anyway, Fernando Santander Alonso has a self funded project at Ferrari and unless there is a reward clause from Santander to Ferrari in case Alonso conquers WDC, I don't think Ferrari will excess the #1 status to Alonso until the end of the championship.

Of course, if Massa becomes WDC, it will be a greater glory bcs FM was the first driver ever of their young driver development program.
Alonso proved he is capable of winning WDC for several teams, so what?

Edited by WebBerK, 04 January 2010 - 07:33.


#15 blizzzzard

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 07:34

No. He will give Alonso a run for his money, that's sure. I think Massa is hungrier than ever now.

#16 gaston_foix

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 07:57

From the few things that i picked up from a few interviews from Domenicali it seems that Massa is already number 2. Ferrari will give all there support to Alonso from the start something that will make Massa's job very difficult even if he wants to fight against the Spaniard.
Alonso already got all the promises he couldn't get at Mclaren.
If there is gonna be friction in the Ferrari garage it depends on how Massa will accept that Alonso is number 1. Is he gonna play his Barichello role quietly, or is he gonna fight it. If he fights it then he could find himself against the team and may see the exit door from Ferrari. If he finds a way to win Alonso in the track despite getting less support, it will be a small miracle and then he might have a hope of not staying number 2 and not see the exit door since Alonso will go all crazy and obnoxious and start blaming the team, the stars, the sushi chef , thinking that maybe they are lying to him and all that, with the resold of Alonso exiting Ferrari the same way he did at Mclaren.


You could be right. The expectations for Alonso are high, I'm sure. Luca expects that Alonso will turn the team like Shumacher did. That's why he hired him. I think also that Felipe feels that, judging for some of his last interviews. Felipe is not feeling comfortable like he was with Kimi.

This is what Ferrari expected from Kimi also. But Kimi couldn't do it. IMO Kimi is naturally faster then Massa, but he failed to integrate into Ferrari team and make them work for him. What Alonso must do is to quickly integrate into the team and makes the team to work for him, as he did at Renault, and failed to do at McLaren. IMO is naturally faster than Felipe, so the no.1 status will come soon after.

#17 Monad

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 08:14

You could be right. The expectations for Alonso are high, I'm sure. Luca expects that Alonso will turn the team like Shumacher did. That's why he hired him. I think also that Felipe feels that, judging for some of his last interviews. Felipe is not feeling comfortable like he was with Kimi.

This is what Ferrari expected from Kimi also. But Kimi couldn't do it. IMO Kimi is naturally faster then Massa, but he failed to integrate into Ferrari team and make them work for him. What Alonso must do is to quickly integrate into the team and makes the team to work for him, as he did at Renault, and failed to do at McLaren. IMO is naturally faster than Felipe, so the no.1 status will come soon after.


Kimi didn't fail to integrate into the team. He never wanted to integrate in the first place. He just wants a fast car to drive, his bored and annoyed on doing anything else. Ferrari really never checked what Kimi was or they had the wrong impression. Maybe at that time they had the impression they needed just a fast driver and nothing more. Who knows.
But you are right on the reasons they hired Alonso. And that's why it seems logical that they will give him what he wants.

#18 seahawk

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 08:24

Not only does Ferrari give Alonso what the wants, so far it seems like he also gives them what they want, which is dedication above the minimum level laid out in the contract. An eagerness to push the team and a desire to integrate himself with the team and go the extra mile to win.

The coming season has 3 teams where the driver combination promises some huge friction and I am not convinced that Ferrari will be the team where things explode first. Massa and Alonso might just work together, not in perfect harmony and not without some times when the egos of either Alaonso or Massa will explode, but maybe with less behind the scene fighting and less power games than at Macca or Mercedes.

Edited by seahawk, 04 January 2010 - 08:25.


#19 mistergagaX

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 08:26

The truth is Alonso has'nt gotten his number 1 status at Ferrari nor is there any proof of that happening anytime soon...

It's only wishfull thinking coming from the Alonno supporters - and ONLY them mind you

oh and btw, did'nt Luca say recently that Massa's quick recovery has brought 'inspiration' to the Italian team ?

NEWSFLASH Ferrari want both of their drivers to perform not just 1 of them ....

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#20 gaston_foix

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 08:52

The truth is Alonso has'nt gotten his number 1 status at Ferrari nor is there any proof of that happening anytime soon...

It's only wishfull thinking coming from the Alonno supporters - and ONLY them mind you

oh and btw, did'nt Luca say recently that Massa's quick recovery has brought 'inspiration' to the Italian team ?

NEWSFLASH Ferrari want both of their drivers to perform not just 1 of them ....


Why did u think that it is a wishful thinking coming from the Alonso supporters. Do you think that Alonso fans think Alonso needs nr.1 status to succeed?? He is the only driver who beat Michael fair and square, and he has proven himself a lot of times as being a great driver. He was ranked 9 in the Autosport great drivers by former Formula 1 drivers. They know better than me and you why did they do that. Alonso fans think in case you don't know, that Alonso is a great driver who can fight with any drivers in the world including Shumacher.

#21 RedBaron

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 09:29

Why did u think that it is a wishful thinking coming from the Alonso supporters. Do you think that Alonso fans think Alonso needs nr.1 status to succeed?? He is the only driver who beat Michael fair and square, and he has proven himself a lot of times as being a great driver. He was ranked 9 in the Autosport great drivers by former Formula 1 drivers. They know better than me and you why did they do that. Alonso fans think in case you don't know, that Alonso is a great driver who can fight with any drivers in the world including Shumacher.


I'm sorry, but is it me or do the facts people base their posts on seem to get more absurd or worse, completely inaccurate each day?


#22 Rinehart

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 09:31

When Ferrari signed Kimi Raikkonen, the theory was that he'd been signed to be Ferrari's number 1.

But to be number 1, you actually need to be consistently faster than the number 2 guy. As it transpired, Massa matched Kimi.

I suspect a similar thing may happen with Alonso. Although they will start out as equal, Ferrari might secretly suppose that Alonso with naturally rise to the number 1 position on merit and that will give Ferrari the reason to focus more on Alonso (a la Schumacher).

However, it remains hinged upon Massa's performance and I think there is a good chance that Massa will be competitive against Alonso. Should that happen, they won't be able to elevate Alonso...

#23 Der Pate

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 09:41

I guess we shoud wait and see, if Massa will have his speed again after the accident...

#24 slideways

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 09:49

Ferrari have shown an awful lot of love for Felipe and I don't see them doing anything whatsoever to hinder him against Alonso. If it weren't for his accident I would even tip him to have the lead for at least the first 5 or 6 races, but now with the accident and time off they will both be starting close to square one, especially with the brake system and weight etc changing again this year, and I think Alonso is lucky for this handicap to be limited by Felipe's accident.

#25 Trust

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 09:56

Ferrari have shown an awful lot of love for Felipe and I don't see them doing anything whatsoever to hinder him against Alonso. If it weren't for his accident I would even tip him to have the lead for at least the first 5 or 6 races, but now with the accident and time off they will both be starting close to square one, especially with the brake system and weight etc changing again this year, and I think Alonso is lucky for this handicap to be limited by Felipe's accident.

Alonso is going to have numero uno status. Be sure of that. Massa will likely be replaced in 2011. by someone else.
:wave:

#26 Mansell4PM

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:18

Ferrari presumably had the pick of the driver market, and certainly a good chance of signing two out of four drivers for this season - Massa, Raikkonen, Alonso, and probably Schumacher. Other than Hamilton, who seems settled at McLaren for the long term, I would guess any of the other drivers in F1 would have been interested in a seat at Ferrari for 2010. Assuming Alonso had already signed, that means that Massa was chosen ahead of many other drivers. I think we can safely deduce from this that Ferrari have a lot of faith in Massa.

Ferrari even paid Raikkonen NOT to race for them, so that they could have their 2010 driver line-up. OK, it was reportedly sponsors' money, but they could (had they wished to) conceivably have used Massa's accident as an excuse to keep Kimi, and kept this money too.

Ferrari have all the data available (telemetry etc.), that WE don't have, and Massa has obviously impressed what is arguably the biggest team in F1.

Given all that, I think Massa simply impresses them with his driving. Due to that, I can't see him being pigeon-holed by the team as a No. 2 driver. As others have commented, the results on track will no doubt sort out which, if either, of Ferrari's drivers becomes de facto team leader this season.

#27 gaston_foix

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:22

I'm sorry, but is it me or do the facts people base their posts on seem to get more absurd or worse, completely inaccurate each day?

What was absurd to you. The fact that he beats Shumi&FIA? It is still absurd to you? Are you leaving in a different world?

#28 EVO2

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:22

Welcome to the board incredulo64.

You're a brave man to start your time in this Piranna club with your own thread !

It's obvious from some previous posts that a point is being missed here : Ferrari had every opportunity to drop Massa and go with Michael Schumacher for 2010 but didn't do it.

Also, right from the time of his accident, the team have been resolute in repeatedly giving public assurances that if Massa wanted to come back, his place in the team was assured.

The new Ferrari management has emotion and loyalty, a concept that Jean Todt and Michael Schumacher could not even comprehend.

I don't believe that Alonso has been given No 1 status and that's as it should be. Team orders are now not only banned but would be very unpopular with the fans - The Ferrari fan base has not yet taken Alonso to their heart : at the moment their sympathy and support goes to Massa. Only race wins by Alonso wil change that.

Personally, I think Alonso is such a flawed character that I don't think he will be happy at Ferrari. Massa will be very quick and the car will obviously be more inclined to his way of driving than Alonso.

If Massa out-qualifies Alonso in the first three races he could well fall apart mentally and there will be fireworks in the team.

If you think about it, the situation is very similar to the one he found when he arrived at McLaren. Massa is not as quick as Lewis but he is more than capable of upsetting Alonso's applecart.

#29 Der Pate

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:27

The Ferrari-statements sound to me like the statement I read, when Barrichello and Massa signed during the Schumacher-era...

#30 Monad

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:28


Domenicali in an interview for an Italian newspaper said that Ferrari will not betray Alonso, like Alonso felt Mclaren did. Really what does that seems to say to you?
Do me it seems to indicate quite clearly that he will start the season with clear number 1 status. What he didn't get at Mclaren was exactly that. Obviously Ferrari are willing to give it to him.



When Ferrari signed Kimi Raikkonen, the theory was that he'd been signed to be Ferrari's number 1.

But to be number 1, you actually need to be consistently faster than the number 2 guy. As it transpired, Massa matched Kimi.

I suspect a similar thing may happen with Alonso. Although they will start out as equal, Ferrari might secretly suppose that Alonso with naturally rise to the number 1 position on merit and that will give Ferrari the reason to focus more on Alonso (a la Schumacher).

However, it remains hinged upon Massa's performance and I think there is a good chance that Massa will be competitive against Alonso. Should that happen, they won't be able to elevate Alonso...


Kimi still won the championship in 2007 so he did win his teamate at the start. Anyone would think it would be easy to start 2008 as number 1 driver and have a big advantage as number 1. The reason this things never happen was because despite Ferrari be willing to give it to him he just wouldn't take the role. He was indifferent in playing the number 1 role. That gave Massa the support he needed since the Ferrai guys just can't work if they don't feel that someone is guiding them and Massa with the more outspoken personality made them work for him and in resold he gained the power to give Kimi a hard time on the track.

#31 gaston_foix

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:32

Ferrari presumably had the pick of the driver market, and certainly a good chance of signing two out of four drivers for this season - Massa, Raikkonen, Alonso, and probably Schumacher. Other than Hamilton, who seems settled at McLaren for the long term, I would guess any of the other drivers in F1 would have been interested in a seat at Ferrari for 2010. Assuming Alonso had already signed, that means that Massa was chosen ahead of many other drivers. I think we can safely deduce from this that Ferrari have a lot of faith in Massa.

Ferrari even paid Raikkonen NOT to race for them, so that they could have their 2010 driver line-up. OK, it was reportedly sponsors' money, but they could (had they wished to) conceivably have used Massa's accident as an excuse to keep Kimi, and kept this money too.

Ferrari have all the data available (telemetry etc.), that WE don't have, and Massa has obviously impressed what is arguably the biggest team in F1.

Given all that, I think Massa simply impresses them with his driving. Due to that, I can't see him being pigeon-holed by the team as a No. 2 driver. As others have commented, the results on track will no doubt sort out which, if either, of Ferrari's drivers becomes de facto team leader this season.


Massa impressed or Kimi didn't impress. It can be both of them in the same time. For sure one had a huge salary and the other 4 or 5 times lower than him. If Ferrari hired Alonso to make what Shumi made for Ferrari it doesn't mean it will happens. It can be otherwise around and Massa will crush Alonso.

Also, without Santander money I don't think they have hired Alonso begining with the 2010. Maybe neither for 2011.

#32 Raziel

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:34

Fernando Alonso will make his Ferrari debut on the first of February in Valencia, according to reports.

According to news agency Europa Press, the Spaniard's long-awaited bow will come as the winter testing ban is lifted, with teams permitted to test for three days at the Ricardo Tormo circuit near Valencia.

It is believed that the 28-year-old will drive on all three days of the test.

www.planet-f1.com

Let's Get It Started :stoned:

#33 Gareth

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:35

Ferrari's statements make it clear that Alonso was Dominicalli's man over Raikkonen. Given Dominicalli's hardly stellar record to date, I doubt he can afford for his big decision (and, by extension, big excuse for 2 years of (relative) underperformance under his watch) to fail to succeed.

#34 taran

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:36

that's the problem with Alonso and his fans right there. they both expect to get everything handed to them on a silver platter !

If Alonso wants his no 1 status well then he is going have to earn it himself the hard way ! He is going to have to work his ass off. He is going to have to beat Massa and outdrive him from the get-go , week-in week-out .... Schumacher earned his no 1 status at Ferrari becuase he was the hardest working SOB driver in F1 ... Period.

Yeah congradulations if Alonso has won 2 wdc's in the past , but what have you done for me lately ??

Alonso is just another number at Ferrari and IF he delivers well then maybe he'll get his number 1 status over Massa but It will never happen in a million years becuase Felipe is simply not called Giancarlo nor is he called Nelson Jr ...


Sigh.

Yet another "fan" who seems to have discovered F1 only very recently.....

Schumacher did not "earn" his status at Ferrari as you imply. He demanded it, on the back of 1 title and a possible second title, when signing for Ferrari in 1995. At that time, Ferrari was desperate to sign him and offered him the moon and the stars including the highest amount of money ever paid to a driver until then....

Berger knew enough to jump ship immediately and Irvine has openly acknowledged that he was the outright #2.

Schumacher indeed brought unknown levels of commitment to Ferrari which cemented his position but the #1 status was his from the start.

Next time, check your facts before posting.....It makes for a better post.






#35 SeanValen

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:41

This signing as no 1 thing is irrelvant, it's if anything a expectation of the team and this driver will be consistently good.

If Massa gets enough poles or just is fast in quali, and wins enough races, fast in testing, Alonso officially won't be able to sign a contract to make Massa slower.

Trulli got kicked out of Renault once he got a few too many good results against Alonso in 2004, nobody expected Trulli to do as well, perhaps Trulli was very good in that Renault that year, but not a long term championship bet as in Alonso, likely true, but still it shows the expectations of the team are oainted on their actions.


http://en.espnf1.com...story/5796.html

Irvine on Schumi

"Michael won't walk in there and expect to be No. 1 to Nico. The fastest guy will be the No. 1 and that's always been the case wherever Michael has been. If Nico goes quicker than him then he can expect to be team leader but I don't expect that to happen. When I was at Ferrari with Michael, I did the majority of the testing, the tyre work and the chassis work. But Michael could just get in the car and go fast immediately. He was quicker than me so he was the No. 1. When I was close to winning the title in 1999, Michael came back after his broken leg and proved he wasn't just the best No.1 but also the best No. 2 in Malaysia when he let me past for the race win."


Alonso will just have beat Massa as much as possible and prove things on track, then the respect and posiiton of leader in the championship and perhaps team will come.

Edited by SeanValen, 04 January 2010 - 10:43.


#36 Anomnader

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:45

Fernando Alonso will make his Ferrari debut on the first of February in Valencia, according to reports.

According to news agency Europa Press, the Spaniard's long-awaited bow will come as the winter testing ban is lifted, with teams permitted to test for three days at the Ricardo Tormo circuit near Valencia.

It is believed that the 28-year-old will drive on all three days of the test.

www.planet-f1.com

Let's Get It Started :stoned:


Thats just not nice and I don't think it will be true, it would be too much bad PR.

#37 Rinehart

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:51

Domenicali in an interview for an Italian newspaper said that Ferrari will not betray Alonso, like Alonso felt Mclaren did. Really what does that seems to say to you?
Do me it seems to indicate quite clearly that he will start the season with clear number 1 status. What he didn't get at Mclaren was exactly that. Obviously Ferrari are willing to give it to him.





Kimi still won the championship in 2007 so he did win his teamate at the start. Anyone would think it would be easy to start 2008 as number 1 driver and have a big advantage as number 1. The reason this things never happen was because despite Ferrari be willing to give it to him he just wouldn't take the role. He was indifferent in playing the number 1 role. That gave Massa the support he needed since the Ferrai guys just can't work if they don't feel that someone is guiding them and Massa with the more outspoken personality made them work for him and in resold he gained the power to give Kimi a hard time on the track.


Apart from the final 3 races of 2008, I saw nothing to suggest that Kimi was being treated or even offered the number 1 status.
Just to repeat, having a number 1 driver is subject to one driver being consistently ahead of the other driver, so their 'obviouis plan' is largely irrelevant until then.

#38 MARDRU

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 11:17

1- Alonso is a better driver than Massa (in fact he is the best, MS included)
2- Massa is as fast as Alonso
3- Ferrari won't give Alonso the "Special number one driver status" as they gave to MS (cut the "MS earned his number one status - Irvine was faster in his first quali and RB was less than one tenth slower)
4- Ferrari won't give Massa "Special RB treatment" or "Irvine 3 wheels treatment"

I see problems for Ferrari







#39 Jan.W

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 11:26

This signing as no 1 thing is irrelvant, it's if anything a expectation of the team and this driver will be consistently good.

If Massa gets enough poles or just is fast in quali, and wins enough races, fast in testing, Alonso officially won't be able to sign a contract to make Massa slower.

Trulli got kicked out of Renault once he got a few too many good results against Alonso in 2004, nobody expected Trulli to do as well, perhaps Trulli was very good in that Renault that year, but not a long term championship bet as in Alonso, likely true, but still it shows the expectations of the team are oainted on their actions.


http://en.espnf1.com...story/5796.html

Irvine on Schumi


Alonso will just have beat Massa as much as possible and prove things on track, then the respect and posiiton of leader in the championship and perhaps team will come.

:up:



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#40 Mauseri

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 11:52

Trulli got kicked out of Renault once he got a few too many good results against Alonso in 2004, nobody expected Trulli to do as well, perhaps Trulli was very good in that Renault that year, but not a long term championship bet as in Alonso, likely true, but still it shows the expectations of the team are oainted on their actions.

Trulli got kicked out after a few too many very average results. First losing the position in French GP, and then not scoring a point after that. I guess he wasn't motivated to drive for the team, whatever the reason.

Edited by Bianchimont, 04 January 2010 - 11:53.


#41 Fortymark

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 11:55

http://en.espnf1.com...story/5796.html

Irvine on Schumi



Irvine for sure talks a lot of crap. Especially about Button vs Rubens.
He´s saying that Rubens beat Jenson :stoned:
In 4 seasons Jenson beat Rubens 3/4 and has 7 wins against Rubens 2
and became WDC.


#42 gaston_foix

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 12:26

This signing as no 1 thing is irrelvant, it's if anything a expectation of the team and this driver will be consistently good.

If Massa gets enough poles or just is fast in quali, and wins enough races, fast in testing, Alonso officially won't be able to sign a contract to make Massa slower.

Trulli got kicked out of Renault once he got a few too many good results against Alonso in 2004, nobody expected Trulli to do as well, perhaps Trulli was very good in that Renault that year, but not a long term championship bet as in Alonso, likely true, but still it shows the expectations of the team are oainted on their actions.


http://en.espnf1.com...story/5796.html

Irvine on Schumi


Alonso will just have beat Massa as much as possible and prove things on track, then the respect and posiiton of leader in the championship and perhaps team will come.


Conclusion of your "objective" opinion:

1) Alonso had no. 1 status at Renault back from 2003 (because once Trulli started to beat him he was fired)
2) Shumacher never had no.1 status at Ferrari because Irvine said this.

What a load of crap... Some Shumi fans still live in their own world....



#43 SoBizarre

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 12:28

When you have a driver like Kimi, who supposedly wasn't very good in working with engineers (some say working in general ;) ), you might have a good chance of getting things done the way that suits you. I believe Massa took advantage of the situation (good for him) and the car he was driving for the last two years was built pretty much to his liking.

But the next season it is going to be a different story. Alonso is going to demand one thing above all: that the car is build to suit HIM first. He knows exactly what he wants and how to ask for it. And I believe Ferrari will give it to him. For Massa it's like having Schumi for a teammate. Again.

Now, if Massa will get used to that car and will like it AND will perform, then I don't think he will be denied the chance of beating Alonso. It's not like the team is going to sabotage him or something like that. I won't buy a story about the team hampering Massa's efforts just to satisfy Fernando. In fact I don't think he (Alonso) would want and like it. Still, even in case Massa likes the car to some extent, I don't believe he will be able to outperform Alonso. I just think Alonso is better, that's all.

The original question was either Massa is destined to be Ferrari's number two driver or not. Well, I believe he is now (again). Is he going to escape his destination (again)? I don't think he is.

Edited by SoBizarre, 04 January 2010 - 12:30.


#44 J2NH

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 12:50

But the next season it is going to be a different story. Alonso is going to demand one thing above all: that the car is build to suit HIM first. He knows exactly what he wants and how to ask for it. And I believe Ferrari will give it to him. For Massa it's like having Schumi for a teammate. Again.


If you subscribe to the belief that a team can build a car to suit a driver then keep in mind the 2010 car has already been built with no input from Alonso.







#45 BlackCat

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 13:25

so, Ferrari now have an intriguer and an invalid. both have been very fast. nobody knows if they will be fast ever again. interesting choice.

#46 Ruf

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 13:52

2) Shumacher never had no.1 status at Ferrari because Irvine said this.

What a load of crap... Some Shumi fans still live in their own world....

He didn't say that. He said that the faster driver had the no.1 status. Reading comprehension--? :p

"Michael won't walk in there and expect to be No. 1 to Nico. The fastest guy will be the No. 1 and that's always been the case wherever Michael has been. If Nico goes quicker than him then he can expect to be team leader but I don't expect that to happen.

#47 Simon Says

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 13:57

Welcome to the board incredulo64.

I would imagine that Alonso fans will agree with you.

I would imagine that Massa fans will disagree with you.

I would also imagine that Ferrari fans are more worried about whether Ferrari can deliver a race winning capable car this year.

Personally, since FA and FM have no history it will have to be settled on the track and that is, after all, why we watch.


FA and FM no history? Remember Germany 2007 for example? :lol:

#48 Simon Says

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 14:03

Conclusion of your "objective" opinion:

1) Alonso had no. 1 status at Renault back from 2003 (because once Trulli started to beat him he was fired)
2) Shumacher never had no.1 status at Ferrari because Irvine said this.

What a load of crap... Some Shumi fans still live in their own world....


Indeed. Back in late 90's Irvine was complaining that he was only given a 2nd rate Ferrari while MS had 1st Ferrari. :lol: Also Herbert said it and Rubens.

#49 revmeister

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 14:17

It's not about No.1 status, it's about leadership.

If Ferrari had faith in Massa to lead the team, why do you think they bothered paying someone like Kimi or Alonso much more money? They already have Fisichella, who could be Massa's partner.

Massa has proved to be fast, but he hasn't stepped up to lead the team.

Leadership, that's what Ferrari are looking for.

#50 RedBaron

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 14:28

What was absurd to you. The fact that he beats Shumi&FIA? It is still absurd to you? Are you leaving in a different world?


What's absurd is your statement that Alonso is the only man to have beaten Schumacher. What about Hakkinen? And then there was Villeneuve and Hill... That's what is absurd to me. How you have suddenly created this legend that Alonso was the only man to beat Schumacher.