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Are the Robertsons the worst managers in F1 History?


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#1 WheelBanger304

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 18:57

Not really a serious question, so need for a poll, but Kimi’s recent comments got me thinking. Here's a guy who after protracted negotiations just priced himself out of a move to one of the sport’s two best teams; yet is now claiming that the WRC title is what he really wanted all along, and that it means far more to him than the F1 WDC. Who on earth is he trying to kid? The WRC title cannot compare in prestige with the F1 WDC. If what he is now saying is true, why is it that just weeks ago he was locked in negotiations with McLaren over a race drive; negotiations which, according to one of his managers in an interview with the BBC, foundered because:

"They couldn't afford him," Robertson said. "It wasn't in his interests to race for what they were offering so he's going to go rallying instead."

So even Dave Robertson had it in the order of priority F1 > WRC. Yet Kimi is now trying to imply otherwise. Why can't they get their stories straight? This whole episode got me thinking about the thorny issue of the role of the driver's manager. It seems that some around here think that the job of a manager is simply to get as much money for his client as possible. But is that really what the job amounts too? Isn't it worth leaving money on the table if it will help bind you closer to the team and ensure that all the mechanics and other staff who are expected to work round the clock fixing problems on your car when they’re jet lagged in Singapore can empathize with you and understand that you are not just in it for the money? I'm honestly not bashing Raikkonen; I think this money-is-everything-ethos is all too common today. I can cite the attitude of his many vocal fans on this board who have expressed outrage that Brawn or McLaren or any other team would so much as dare to offer him less than they might have if he hadn’t received the Ferrari payoff.

Yet should Kimi really have been expecting to be paid twice, once by the team that sacked him and again at his regular rate by his new employer? Was that a realistic aspiration? Particularly when you consider that, at the point that the decision was made to terminate his contract, he was by any rational estimate being grossly overpaid—having been outperformed for the past season and a half by a teammate who was on a fraction of his salary? And just how much did he make in his three years at Ferrari? $150 million? I used to quite like Kimi but I have to say that it doesn’t say much for his values if Dave Robertson was telling the truth when he said that money was what prevented him from signing the McLaren contract.

But the interesting question is this: is the greed more on the part of Raikkonen or the Robertsons? I have heard rumours about the latter taking as much as fifty per cent of what Kimi makes. I find such rumours impossible to credit. That is an astronomical amount and even if he had consented to paying such an outlandish "commission" in his early days he would surely have renegotiated it down to a more acceptable level. Yet the Robertsons have previous, as they say in England.

They are notoriously cutthroat negotiators; stupidly so, in the way of those incompetent generals who fight the current war using the strategy and tactics of the last one. And even when the last war was anything but a success-unless money is everything in your scale of values. Because in my opinion the massive contract Kimi signed with Ferrari was not a triumph but the biggest disaster of his career. After all, when the Robertsons were playing Ferrari off against McLaren before Raikkonen signed the Ferrari contract, were they not aware that they were potentially setting up their man for the most public humiliation of any top line F1 driver in history? They were packaging Raikkonen, a guy who had to that point in his career been beaten over the course of a season once by Coulthard and once by Heidfeld, as a guy who could deliver Schumacher-style dominance—and getting him a commensurate pay packet—when it was to emerge that he was more or less on the same level as Massa. How do people react when they discover they've been sold a bill of goods? With cold fury. Sometimes it pays to not squeeze every last dollar you can out of the other guy.

And before any of Kimi's fans mentions Prost, let them think again. Alain was kicked out of Ferrari, but he was fired because he called the car a truck, not for non-performance or committing the tort of passing off. And Prost is still regarded as one of the greatest drivers ever (you cannot imagine how much it pains me to type those words as a hard core Arnoux fan from childhood). Kimi? Not so much. It strikes me that his humiliating demise that of the Robertsons must be attributed to sheer arrogance. Even in mid-2008, when they could have negotiated a pay cut to reflect the harsher economic winds that were already beginning to blow and the fact that he was proving to be no quicker than Massa, and not particularly engaged in dealing with the engineers, they did not. Imagine how the the ordinary employees at the scuderia would have responded to such a gesture on the part of Raikkonen and the Robertsons? Yet they would not budge one bit and even effectively held Ferrari to ransom by threatening to not support Massa’s WDC bid - even though Kimi had no chance of winning it himself - unless they met their terms for the extension.

I cannot believe the sympathy that exists on this board for Kimi and the widespread feelings amongst his fanboys that he was hard done by by Ferrari. The truth is anything but. My suggestion to all the Raikkonen fans who continue to support the greed and arrogance of Kimi and the Robertsons is this: why don’t you all go and form a board where you can work yourselves into a lather over whether Carlos Slim or Bill Gates or Warren Buffet has more money? I want to see the best drivers racing in Formula One. Senna once offered to drive for Williams for free. I have no doubt that Alonso would do likewise in this year’s Ferrari or whatever car he thought would give him the best chance of winning his third WDC. Now that Hamilton has a few quid in the bank I have no doubt he would be prepared to drive for McLaren for free also. Raikkonen is clearly not cut from the same cloth. As he seems more interested in amassing wealth than racing, to my mind he doesn’t deserve to be in F1. I'm sure his fans will inform us all when he enters the Guinness Book of Records by becoming the first man in history to become a billionaire from severance pay. In the meantime he can keep telling the world that the WRC is worth more to him than the F1 WDC. Eventually he might even convince himself.


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#2 potmotr

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 18:59

Hardly, I'd say they're among the best.

They managed Raikkonen to an F1 title, and also made him the highest paid driver in the history of F1 for three seasons.

Then they played hardball with Ferrari when the team wanted to get rid of Kimi, and managed to get a deal worth 17 million euros a year for Kimi NOT to drive.

#3 Lazarus II

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:04

A managers job is to make the most money possible for their clients; Kimi's rich rich rich. So, I'd say they've done a cracking job.

Now Heidfeld's manager has got to be the worst. He's quick and struggling to find a decent seat.

#4 Don_Humpador

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:04

Hardly, I'd say they're among the best.

They managed Raikkonen to an F1 title, and also made him the highest paid driver in the history of F1 for three seasons.

Then they played hardball with Ferrari when the team wanted to get rid of Kimi, and managed to get a deal worth 17 million euros a year for Kimi NOT to drive.


Precisely.

€17m to sit at home, if he wanted to? Heck, I wish the Robertsons could get me a deal like that to sit around posting on Autosport's BB. :love:

#5 Risil

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:06

Senna once offered to drive for Williams for free. I have no doubt that Alonso would do likewise in this year’s Ferrari or whatever car he thought would give him the best chance of winning his third WDC. Now that Hamilton has a few quid in the bank I have no doubt he would be prepared to drive for McLaren for free also. Raikkonen is clearly not cut from the same cloth.


The same Senna who ignored Mclaren's policy on personal sponsorship so he could keep Banco Nacional logos on his overalls? Jim Clark curtailed his racing activities in Britain to avoid paying British tax rates. I suppose this means he's also not cut from the same cloth.

In the meantime he can keep telling the world that the WRC is worth more to him than the F1 WDC. Eventually he might even convince himself.


He's already won the F1 world title. What the hell do you have against rallying?

#6 SAFC09

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:07

Hardly, I'd say they're among the best.

They managed Raikkonen to an F1 title, and also made him the highest paid driver in the history of F1 for three seasons.

Then they played hardball with Ferrari when the team wanted to get rid of Kimi, and managed to get a deal worth 17 million euros a year for Kimi NOT to drive.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

#7 Sammyosammy

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:14

Hardly, I'd say they're among the best.

They managed Raikkonen to an F1 title, and also made him the highest paid driver in the history of F1 for three seasons.

Then they played hardball with Ferrari when the team wanted to get rid of Kimi, and managed to get a deal worth 17 million euros a year for Kimi NOT to drive.


a) Super License with no experience required >> contract with Sauber
b) move to Macca
c) move to reds
d) out of reds with loads of euros

I sure wouldn´t say that Robertsons don´t handle it..


#8 juicy sushi

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:16

The dislike of the OP regarding Kimi aside, no, I think the Robertsons have proven to be good managers for the reasons mentioned by others. They got Kimi the best contracts in the history of the sport, which was their job.

Kimi left F1 because he wasn't willing to drive for less than he was worth, as he PR and politics of F1 weren't something he was prepared to endure for the sake of continuing in F1 without some sort of financial compensation for doing so. He has gone rallying because it is as fun for him as driving an F1 car, but without the things which he hated in F1.

#9 WheelBanger304

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:19

Hardly, I'd say they're among the best.

They managed Raikkonen to an F1 title, and also made him the highest paid driver in the history of F1 for three seasons.

Then they played hardball with Ferrari when the team wanted to get rid of Kimi, and managed to get a deal worth 17 million euros a year for Kimi NOT to drive.


Thanks for the reply. You've encapsulated perfectly the differing philosophies I am trying to highlight. The haunted look in Kimi's eyes as he walked around the Ferrari garage towards the end of last season - knowing that they didn't want him there and getting the most brutal confirmation of this fact when each and every engineer refused to make eye contact with him - makes me wonder whether he was as happy with the payoff as some of his fans seem to be. Nobody wants to be so publicly and humiliatingly sacked.

If the Robertsons had not been so cutthroat in negotiations and had only signed for, say, twice what Massa was on, rather than Schumacher money, is there not a chance that the engineers would have gone that extra mile to help him resolve his tyre heating issues in 2008? As it was, they would have been perfectly within their rights to take the attitude that "he's on Schumacher money, why should he need hand holding and molly coddling?". The top guys - the Kimis, Hamiltons and Alonsos - have all got more money than they can spend. What I had always imagined they wanted far more than mere coin was glory: to be remembered with the Fangios, Clarks and Sennas. Perhaps Kimi is different. Regardless, it is my contention that if he and/or the Robertsons had been a little bit more reasonable on the money side, there is a very good chance that he would have successfully defended his title in 2008 and would still have a Ferrari drive for this year.

#10 Sammyosammy

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:25

if he and/or the Robertsons had been a little bit more reasonable on the money side, there is a very good chance that he would have successfully defended his title in 2008 and would still have a Ferrari drive for this year.


I find it very difficult to follow this logic.. :rolleyes:


#11 potmotr

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:35

Thanks for the reply. You've encapsulated perfectly the differing philosophies I am trying to highlight. The haunted look in Kimi's eyes as he walked around the Ferrari garage towards the end of last season - knowing that they didn't want him there and getting the most brutal confirmation of this fact when each and every engineer refused to make eye contact with him - makes me wonder whether he was as happy with the payoff as some of his fans seem to be. Nobody wants to be so publicly and humiliatingly sacked.


You're welcome. :)

Sure, but F1 is a big boy's game.

Kimi has made many millions, has won the title and lots of races.

For sure, it was a bummer Ferrari showed him the door in favour of Alonso.

But I'm sure knowing that he had achieved his goals in F1, and had been lavishly compensated for his driving and his departure went a long way to soothing his discomfort.

Kimi certainly had a much nicer time of it than, say, Kovalainen who didn't achieve much at McLaren at all and had to face being shown the door when the team didn't even have a replacement in mind.

If the Robertsons had not been so cutthroat in negotiations and had only signed for, say, twice what Massa was on, rather than Schumacher money, is there not a chance that the engineers would have gone that extra mile to help him resolve his tyre heating issues in 2008? As it was, they would have been perfectly within their rights to take the attitude that "he's on Schumacher money, why should he need hand holding and molly coddling?". The top guys - the Kimis, Hamiltons and Alonsos - have all got more money than they can spend. What I had always imagined they wanted far more than mere coin was glory: to be remembered with the Fangios, Clarks and Sennas. Perhaps Kimi is different. Regardless, it is my contention that if he and/or the Robertsons had been a little bit more reasonable on the money side, there is a very good chance that he would have successfully defended his title in 2008 and would still have a Ferrari drive for this year.


Kimi's salary would have had zero impact on the performance of his engineers.

They're employed to do a job. There's no way at all they'd try and disadvantage a driver because of his salary.

It just doesn't make sense.

#12 pingu666

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:36

i always wondered how the robertsons managed to get some much money for kimi tbh

#13 potmotr

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:39

i always wondered how the robertsons managed to get some much money for kimi tbh


I've always presumed 20 percent.

That's what Schumacher's manager Willi Weber gets.

#14 Trust

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:41

Not really a serious question, so need for a poll, but Kimi’s recent comments got me thinking. Here's a guy who after protracted negotiations just priced himself out of a move to one of the sport’s two best teams; yet is now claiming that the WRC title is what he really wanted all along, and that it means far more to him than the F1 WDC. Who on earth is he trying to kid? The WRC title cannot compare in prestige with the F1 WDC. If what he is now saying is true, why is it that just weeks ago he was locked in negotiations with McLaren over a race drive; negotiations which, according to one of his managers in an interview with the BBC, foundered because:

"They couldn't afford him," Robertson said. "It wasn't in his interests to race for what they were offering so he's going to go rallying instead."

So even Dave Robertson had it in the order of priority F1 > WRC. Yet Kimi is now trying to imply otherwise. Why can't they get their stories straight? This whole episode got me thinking about the thorny issue of the role of the driver's manager. It seems that some around here think that the job of a manager is simply to get as much money for his client as possible. But is that really what the job amounts too? Isn't it worth leaving money on the table if it will help bind you closer to the team and ensure that all the mechanics and other staff who are expected to work round the clock fixing problems on your car when they’re jet lagged in Singapore can empathize with you and understand that you are not just in it for the money? I'm honestly not bashing Raikkonen; I think this money-is-everything-ethos is all too common today. I can cite the attitude of his many vocal fans on this board who have expressed outrage that Brawn or McLaren or any other team would so much as dare to offer him less than they might have if he hadn’t received the Ferrari payoff.

Yet should Kimi really have been expecting to be paid twice, once by the team that sacked him and again at his regular rate by his new employer? Was that a realistic aspiration? Particularly when you consider that, at the point that the decision was made to terminate his contract, he was by any rational estimate being grossly overpaid—having been outperformed for the past season and a half by a teammate who was on a fraction of his salary? And just how much did he make in his three years at Ferrari? $150 million? I used to quite like Kimi but I have to say that it doesn’t say much for his values if Dave Robertson was telling the truth when he said that money was what prevented him from signing the McLaren contract.

But the interesting question is this: is the greed more on the part of Raikkonen or the Robertsons? I have heard rumours about the latter taking as much as fifty per cent of what Kimi makes. I find such rumours impossible to credit. That is an astronomical amount and even if he had consented to paying such an outlandish "commission" in his early days he would surely have renegotiated it down to a more acceptable level. Yet the Robertsons have previous, as they say in England.

They are notoriously cutthroat negotiators; stupidly so, in the way of those incompetent generals who fight the current war using the strategy and tactics of the last one. And even when the last war was anything but a success-unless money is everything in your scale of values. Because in my opinion the massive contract Kimi signed with Ferrari was not a triumph but the biggest disaster of his career. After all, when the Robertsons were playing Ferrari off against McLaren before Raikkonen signed the Ferrari contract, were they not aware that they were potentially setting up their man for the most public humiliation of any top line F1 driver in history? They were packaging Raikkonen, a guy who had to that point in his career been beaten over the course of a season once by Coulthard and once by Heidfeld, as a guy who could deliver Schumacher-style dominance—and getting him a commensurate pay packet—when it was to emerge that he was more or less on the same level as Massa. How do people react when they discover they've been sold a bill of goods? With cold fury. Sometimes it pays to not squeeze every last dollar you can out of the other guy.

And before any of Kimi's fans mentions Prost, let them think again. Alain was kicked out of Ferrari, but he was fired because he called the car a truck, not for non-performance or committing the tort of passing off. And Prost is still regarded as one of the greatest drivers ever (you cannot imagine how much it pains me to type those words as a hard core Arnoux fan from childhood). Kimi? Not so much. It strikes me that his humiliating demise that of the Robertsons must be attributed to sheer arrogance. Even in mid-2008, when they could have negotiated a pay cut to reflect the harsher economic winds that were already beginning to blow and the fact that he was proving to be no quicker than Massa, and not particularly engaged in dealing with the engineers, they did not. Imagine how the the ordinary employees at the scuderia would have responded to such a gesture on the part of Raikkonen and the Robertsons? Yet they would not budge one bit and even effectively held Ferrari to ransom by threatening to not support Massa’s WDC bid - even though Kimi had no chance of winning it himself - unless they met their terms for the extension.

I cannot believe the sympathy that exists on this board for Kimi and the widespread feelings amongst his fanboys that he was hard done by by Ferrari. The truth is anything but. My suggestion to all the Raikkonen fans who continue to support the greed and arrogance of Kimi and the Robertsons is this: why don’t you all go and form a board where you can work yourselves into a lather over whether Carlos Slim or Bill Gates or Warren Buffet has more money? I want to see the best drivers racing in Formula One. Senna once offered to drive for Williams for free. I have no doubt that Alonso would do likewise in this year’s Ferrari or whatever car he thought would give him the best chance of winning his third WDC. Now that Hamilton has a few quid in the bank I have no doubt he would be prepared to drive for McLaren for free also. Raikkonen is clearly not cut from the same cloth. As he seems more interested in amassing wealth than racing, to my mind he doesn’t deserve to be in F1. I'm sure his fans will inform us all when he enters the Guinness Book of Records by becoming the first man in history to become a billionaire from severance pay. In the meantime he can keep telling the world that the WRC is worth more to him than the F1 WDC. Eventually he might even convince himself.

I must admit, this is pretty nice fraud. The real thing which you wanted is to bash Kimi.
The question was something made just to take attention ......
Anyway, Robertsons are surely the best. They secured him everything including quickly entry in F1 with Sauber. It seems you've got a lot of bad informations.
The WRC title is better for him because he was preparing all his life for F1 and now, with very little experience he is entering completely other motosport.
So whether you like it or not: WRC title and F1 title is more valueable than 3 times F1 world champion. That's what he meant.
Coulthard and Heidfeld comment I won't even try to explain, because there are everything on that in this Forum.
Kimi wasn't kicked, he left with his own will. He could have stayed if he wanted to, but that would mean another 2008 performance. And the reason isn't performance, it's Santander and the money.
And another thing : WRC drivers are pretty equal to F1 drivers by skill.

#15 potmotr

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:44

Kimi wasn't kicked, he left with his own will. He could have stayed if he wanted to, but that would mean another 2008 performance. And the reason isn't performance, it's Santander and the money.


Without wanting to bash Kimi, the reason is that Ferrari didn't feel they were getting value for money out of Kimi and that Alonso was a better bet.


#16 Trust

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:46

Thanks for the reply. You've encapsulated perfectly the differing philosophies I am trying to highlight. The haunted look in Kimi's eyes as he walked around the Ferrari garage towards the end of last season - knowing that they didn't want him there and getting the most brutal confirmation of this fact when each and every engineer refused to make eye contact with him - makes me wonder whether he was as happy with the payoff as some of his fans seem to be. Nobody wants to be so publicly and humiliatingly sacked.

If the Robertsons had not been so cutthroat in negotiations and had only signed for, say, twice what Massa was on, rather than Schumacher money, is there not a chance that the engineers would have gone that extra mile to help him resolve his tyre heating issues in 2008? As it was, they would have been perfectly within their rights to take the attitude that "he's on Schumacher money, why should he need hand holding and molly coddling?". The top guys - the Kimis, Hamiltons and Alonsos - have all got more money than they can spend. What I had always imagined they wanted far more than mere coin was glory: to be remembered with the Fangios, Clarks and Sennas. Perhaps Kimi is different. Regardless, it is my contention that if he and/or the Robertsons had been a little bit more reasonable on the money side, there is a very good chance that he would have successfully defended his title in 2008 and would still have a Ferrari drive for this year.

So you admit, that they didn't want to help him. And before that you say he is equal to Massa. Very interesting.
The job of a driver is to tell his race engineer what he wants and then it is job of the people in factory to fullfill that if they can.
But they didn't listen to Kimi, did they? They were maybe scared what would change do to the car or maybe incompetent?
I just don't understand people from Ferrari. They almost had WDC in 2008. Can't understand how they can abandon their driver after very big lead in beginning, and to switch focus on another.
Strange. :wave:

#17 Red 5

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:51

A managers job is to make the most money possible for their clients; Kimi's rich rich rich. So, I'd say they've done a cracking job.

Now Heidfeld's manager has got to be the worst. He's quick and struggling to find a decent seat.

Lets face it, Heidfeld's manager doesn't have a lot to work with! :lol:
He might be quick but unfortunately its not quick enough.

#18 kismet

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:57

Nope. I dare say that had it been up to the Robertsons, Kimi Räikkönen would be driving a McLaren next year. Thankfully it wasn't their decision to make.

In other words, there's little a manager can do if his client is hell bent on quitting the sport.

Edited by kismet, 05 January 2010 - 20:05.


#19 WheelBanger304

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 19:58

Kimi's salary would have had zero impact on the performance of his engineers.

They're employed to do a job. There's no way at all they'd try and disadvantage a driver because of his salary.

It just doesn't make sense.


I didn't say they would. Please read what I wrote very carefully. There is a difference between merely doing your job and the way you will perform when you have been galvanized by a real leader like Shumi! He would stay up well into the night with the engineers eating plates of pasta as they worked through whatever problems the car had together. Clearly, as Monte said, that sort of communication / commitment is not in Kimi's DNA. How else could he inspire them to go the extra mile, above and beyond the call of duty, really bust a gut for him? How about voluntarily making a gesture of solidarity by giving up a small part of his pay packet? It would not necessarily benefit the engineers directly, but would at least show that his heart was in the right place. Italians are quite emotional people and tend to respond very positively to big gestures of that sort.

Also by this point I would have been amazed if resentment at his massive pay was not building up on the shop floor. Nobody minds paying top dollar to a star that's been expensively poached from the main opposition. But if his results are no better than the in house guys who are on fraction of his wages, then his massive package soon causes resentment. I am surprised that you totally discount this dynamic; I have seen it pretty much everywhere I've worked.

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#20 potmotr

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 20:00

I didn't say they would. Please read what I wrote very carefully.


Don't take this the wrong way, but can you please write more concise posts?

They're a bit long which makes me less likely to read them thoroughly.


#21 WheelBanger304

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 20:08

Don't take this the wrong way, but can you please write more concise posts?

They're a bit long which makes me less likely to read them thoroughly.

:wave:

#22 potmotr

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 20:09

:wave:


That's the perfect length!

#23 Fox1

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 20:22

Hardly, I'd say they're among the best.

They managed Raikkonen to an F1 title, and also made him the highest paid driver in the history of F1 for three seasons.

Then they played hardball with Ferrari when the team wanted to get rid of Kimi, and managed to get a deal worth 17 million euros a year for Kimi NOT to drive.



I think you have to give Ferrari / Santander some credit here. #1 They got Kimi out of Scuderia. #2: They worded his severance contract in a way that made negotiations with other teams much more difficult for the Robertsons given the curent economic conditions. Add a little "leaking" of the terms of Kimi's severance contract to the press and you have Kimi (who wasn't fully committed to F1 anyway) sitting in a WRC tin-top in 2010 and not taking points off Ferrari in a McLaren. It may have cost Ferrari 17 million euros, but I don't think they'll lose any sleep over it.

#24 giacomo

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:00

From what I know about Raikkonens McLaren and Ferrari contracts I have to assume that the Robertsons are not the worst but the best managers in F1 history. However, I doubt that they are taking 50% of the negotiated money.

If Raikkonen had decided to stay in F1 he would have a drive at McLaren or Mercedes. Not bad at all.
The fact that he is searching for a new challenge in rallye is hardly the fault of his managers. And for him going for rallye wins might be more rewarding than stay for one or two more years in a sport he don't care about any more. Nothing wrong with that.

#25 One

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:06

I've always presumed 20 percent.

That's what Schumacher's manager Willi Weber gets.


How do you know all these numbers!



:p



:smoking:




#26 mursuka80

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:09

When a driver says every lap is the same its time for a change and i have no doubt Kimi is sincere,when he says WRC title is more important to him,because he has won a F1 title already,so its just logical.Its gonna be a great year MS back in F1 and Kimi in WRC. :clap: Robertssons have done a great job.

#27 undersquare

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:18

Well the Robertsons got Kimi one helluva WRC deal. Straight into a works C4. **** me if that isn't good management.

It seems pretty clear to me from Jense's £5.5m that McLaren were never thinking of paying anyone as much as Lewis, and Kimi didn't want to go in on that unequal basis if there was a good alternative. The Robertsons negotiated that good alternative, and Kimi went for it. Good job well done :up: .

#28 mursuka80

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:30

Well the Robertsons got Kimi one helluva WRC deal. Straight into a works C4. **** me if that isn't good management.

It seems pretty clear to me from Jense's £5.5m that McLaren were never thinking of paying anyone as much as Lewis, and Kimi didn't want to go in on that unequal basis if there was a good alternative. The Robertsons negotiated that good alternative, and Kimi went for it. Good job well done :up: .


Is Jenson only making that much? I think that Kimi got bored with politics and like he said every lap is the same,when WRC gives you something new in every corner. If Kimi cant even name his best memory from F1 and he had more fub playing with snowmobiles with his friends its time to try other things.Maybe his 3 and 4 year old nephews who are karting already will be next Räikkönen in F1. :D

#29 potmotr

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:31

I think the Robertson's are also very good and letting Kimi decide what he wants to do wtih his life.



#30 mursuka80

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:32

I think the Robertson's are also very good and letting Kimi decide what he wants to do wtih his life.


There are some managers who dont? I know A.Hamilton,but he is a dad,so its different.

Edited by mursuka80, 05 January 2010 - 21:33.


#31 Hairpin

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:52

That's the perfect length!

A bit long still I would say. If he cut the other arm off as well we would not need to suffer through novel-length bashing exercises no more.

#32 undersquare

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 22:03

Is Jenson only making that much? I think that Kimi got bored with politics and like he said every lap is the same,when WRC gives you something new in every corner. If Kimi cant even name his best memory from F1 and he had more fub playing with snowmobiles with his friends its time to try other things.Maybe his 3 and 4 year old nephews who are karting already will be next Räikkönen in F1. :D


Yup Jense on £5.5m is what everyone said. I thought Kimi would be happier in WRC when I saw all those smiles last year when he was doing Rally of Finland. But he said he wanted to stay in F1 with McLaren so I believe him on that. I guess when he looked seriously at WRC and that drive came up on the radar then he changed his mind. For a lot of good reasons as you say.

#33 SmercH

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 00:19

The worst manager in F1 history must have been Verstappen's manager who ruined already negotied deals just few minutes before signing the contract... twice, if I remember correctly.

Bu I believe the question was rised with another intent - to bash Robertsons because they made Kimi millions for not driving at all... If the main target was money - they were briliant at their job. If it was all about getting Kimi the best seat possible, well they did everything right until Kimi was fed up with everything. You can argue that they messed up deal with Mercedes, but well, it's still not even close to Verstappen's manager's "excellent" deeds. At least Kimi got quite a money for NOT driving in F1.

#34 BlackCat

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 00:55

there are some doubts about Robertsons as they could not get 2007 british F3 champ nothing better than the second reserve in BMW. then, again, the times that they are...

#35 New Britain

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:03

Hardly, I'd say they're among the best.

They managed Raikkonen to an F1 title, and also made him the highest paid driver in the history of F1 for three seasons.

Then they played hardball with Ferrari when the team wanted to get rid of Kimi, and managed to get a deal worth 17 million euros a year for Kimi NOT to drive.

Wrt your last point, AIUI Raikkonen had a contract to drive for Ferrari in 2010, which he had secured in 2008 (allegedly in return for conceding the No. 1 position to Massa for the final third of the '08 season). Assuming that that is correct, then it would appear that there was little that Ferrari could do to avoid paying him the full freight.
My guess is that KR and Robertsons reckoned that he could get a good ride elsewhere and, rather than sitting on the bench, he wanted to be paid a % of his guarantee even if he drove for someone else. As part of that negotiation, they would have had to deal with the scenario of "What if he leaves but then cannot get a ride?", which is where the $17E default payment would have come from. Notwithstanding that, KR always had the option of being paid for doing nothing. Perhaps you would ascribe that to the Robertsons' good tactics in 2008.


#36 absentia

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 08:53

I would say that's a nice post and eloquently put together.

Effectively, these two managers have managed to price Raikkonen out of two top teams in F1 in three years. Referring to the widespread question mark on Kimi's motivation problem, (which he completely denies), Davidson once briefly commented, "Why? Because he earns $40m a year!" A bit jealous may it first sounds, Antony may have a point here. Raikkonen's managers help to consume his motivation too fast too soon as well as fulfilling their own bit of greed.

One of my friend once joked that maybe their investment in middle east needs that money, or their yachts in Monaco, or his holiday villa in Asia need that money, these things Robertsons surely know better than their client himself... She may have a point though, who knows. In the end of the world, Raikkonen allows Robertsons to price up all this way along, even when it was damaging his chances to retain/land a competitive drive seat.

On the other hand, Raikkonen himself did say that he wouldn't accept a voluntary pay cut, which wouldn't flatter Ferrari's pride too much, and is now saying that he values WRC title more than F1 WDC, so if he's indifferent to driving a Ferrari in F1, then Ferrari in return, by 2009 summer, has become indifferent about having him driving for them, too. Fair enough I think.

In the end, if he himself feels happy and convinced, then it's the way it is.

Slightly off topic: I don't think one could say Monte isn't supportive enough to his drivers. I reckon he at least three times offered his encouragement/chances to Raikkonen; once after first half of 07 season when he was urging "let there be the real Kimi whom everyone fears", once at 08 Monza when he renewed (or accepted to renew) his contract, once at beginning of this season when Domi was saying "2009 would be pivotal for Kimi". He even takes back steps from Domi's pay cut hints, said something like "They get such salary for a reason." Although considering Monte's recent "In 2008, from Silverstone on, instead of Kimi in the car we had his twin – a nice guy, looks like him, but less quick." lines, to my comprehension it can more be interpretated as "We expect a performance up to the amount we're paying" than him simply defending for Raikkonen's salary.So if this policy still applies to Alonso, then Fernando ought to have his three chances as well, that's should he ever need his boss to wake him up.

#37 Beamer

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 09:02

[...]
Here's a guy who after protracted negotiations just priced himself out of a move to one of the sport’s two best teams; yet is now claiming that the WRC title is what he really wanted all along, and that it means far more to him than the F1 WDC. [...]

"They couldn't afford him," Robertson said. "It wasn't in his interests to race for what they were offering so he's going to go rallying instead."

[...]


Ever considered the possibillity that Kimi actually prefers to drive the WRC, and therefore wasn't compelled to do any concessions on his salary to stay in F1? If you don't really want something, you're not really inclined to give in are you? If he really preferred driving F1, he would have lowered his demands. So to me, their story is perfectly logical and makes sense.



#38 Galka

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 11:58

Thanks for the reply. You've encapsulated perfectly the differing philosophies I am trying to highlight. The haunted look in Kimi's eyes as he walked around the Ferrari garage towards the end of last season - knowing that they didn't want him there and getting the most brutal confirmation of this fact when each and every engineer refused to make eye contact with him - makes me wonder whether he was as happy with the payoff as some of his fans seem to be. Nobody wants to be so publicly and humiliatingly sacked.

I'm afraid you're making things up.
In Abu Dhabi, when Kimi's former engineer Chris Dyer was asked by Italian TV what he thinks of Alonso coming to Ferrari, he said "I don't want to talk about Alonso since today we are remembering those wonderful years with Kimi". :wave: It doesn't sound like Kimi was not getting on well with the team. (I even have a recording of that Dyer's interview).
Besides, according to Italian papers, Kimi's mechanics and engineers in Abu Dhabi made farewell banners for him and organized an unofficial leaving party. (Stefano was not invited :lol: ).
I think it's mostly Ferrari's top management, not engineers and mechanics, that Kimi fell out with.

#39 F1Skeptic

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:04

Kimi was the most over paid driver in the history of the sport which means the Robertsons were the best managers of all time. :up:

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#40 Mauseri

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:08

So far we have been proposed the they are the worst and the best :up:

I think they did a good job. First to get really inexperienced driver in F1, then create him a reputation at McLaren, and then cash with Ferrari. Or maybe it was the driver all along? Well but without managers it wouldn't have happened I'd say.

#41 Der Pate

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:26

During the season it seemed to me, that Kimi wasn´t motivated anylonger...I remember seeing him eating ice-cream, while other drivers waited for a restart at Malaysia...

#42 Mungo Fangio of the Year

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:28

During the season it seemed to me, that Kimi wasn´t motivated anylonger...I remember seeing him eating ice-cream, while other drivers waited for a restart at Malaysia...



I saw that too. BTW, where the other driver's cars also broken so that they couldn't keep on racing?

:rolleyes:

#43 juicy sushi

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:47

I think Kimi was just being honest. It was too dark to race, the rain made the track too slick, and there was no way the race could be re-started. Everyone knew it, but they all stayed in their driver suits "just in case". Kimi couldn't be bothered to fake such a display, and I don't blame him. The car was crap, the weather conditions unsafe, and the race was clearly not going to continue. Why should he pretend to be ready to go back out?

I think Kimi genuinely was pretty demotivated this year, and I think that it's just a case of too much politicking at Ferrari (they wanted Alonso, and clearly Kimi wasn't a culture fit with management, and the season was dominated internally by how they could switch Kimi out for Fernando), and too much PR (which Kimi clearly detests). He seemed to be sick of the non-driving stuff, and I think that unless someone was willing to pay him a premium to put up with it, he'd rather go somewhere else without those demands, but with a driving challenge he enjoys.

I think the Robertsons were just responding to Kimi's preferences. They know their client, and know what he wanted. They tried to get it, and when they couldn't, helped Kimi make the transition he wanted. I think that from Kimi's perspective, they've been absolutely brilliant.

#44 Der Pate

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:52

I saw that too. BTW, where the other driver's cars also broken so that they couldn't keep on racing?

:rolleyes:


Sorry...didn´t get that...just thought, that Kimi could see in the future, that there wouldn´t be a restart...

#45 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:52

There are plenty of places to debate Kimi - this thread is for discussing the Robertsons!

#46 Risil

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 15:41

Steve Robertson was an Indy Lights champion, wasn't he? In a field that included Greg Moore, Andre Ribeiro, Eddie Lawson, Patrick Carpentier... Guess he wasn't so good at managing his own career! :cat:

#47 Flat and Out

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 16:20

I would say that's a nice post and eloquently put together.

Effectively, these two managers have managed to price Raikkonen out of two top teams in F1 in three years. Referring to the widespread question mark on Kimi's motivation problem, (which he completely denies), Davidson once briefly commented, "Why? Because he earns $40m a year!" A bit jealous may it first sounds, Antony may have a point here. Raikkonen's managers help to consume his motivation too fast too soon as well as fulfilling their own bit of greed.

One of my friend once joked that maybe their investment in middle east needs that money, or their yachts in Monaco, or his holiday villa in Asia need that money, these things Robertsons surely know better than their client himself... She may have a point though, who knows. In the end of the world, Raikkonen allows Robertsons to price up all this way along, even when it was damaging his chances to retain/land a competitive drive seat.

On the other hand, Raikkonen himself did say that he wouldn't accept a voluntary pay cut, which wouldn't flatter Ferrari's pride too much, and is now saying that he values WRC title more than F1 WDC, so if he's indifferent to driving a Ferrari in F1, then Ferrari in return, by 2009 summer, has become indifferent about having him driving for them, too. Fair enough I think.

In the end, if he himself feels happy and convinced, then it's the way it is.

Slightly off topic: I don't think one could say Monte isn't supportive enough to his drivers. I reckon he at least three times offered his encouragement/chances to Raikkonen; once after first half of 07 season when he was urging "let there be the real Kimi whom everyone fears", once at 08 Monza when he renewed (or accepted to renew) his contract, once at beginning of this season when Domi was saying "2009 would be pivotal for Kimi". He even takes back steps from Domi's pay cut hints, said something like "They get such salary for a reason." Although considering Monte's recent "In 2008, from Silverstone on, instead of Kimi in the car we had his twin – a nice guy, looks like him, but less quick." lines, to my comprehension it can more be interpretated as "We expect a performance up to the amount we're paying" than him simply defending for Raikkonen's salary.So if this policy still applies to Alonso, then Fernando ought to have his three chances as well, that's should he ever need his boss to wake him up.



You must be the crappiest poster around. First you started the thread as wheelbanger000 or what ever. And now you are applauding yourself with another novel with another name. So pathetic.




#48 potmotr

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 16:53

Here is the product of the Robertson's hardwork: Kimi Raikkonen, Red Bull WRC driver.

I scanned this photo from today's Red Bulletin magazine.

Posted Image


#49 ZenSpeed

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 17:27

Who on earth is he trying to kid? The WRC title cannot compare in prestige with the F1 WDC.


He already has the F1 WDC......................


Edited by ZenSpeed, 06 January 2010 - 17:28.


#50 jeze

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 17:30

Switch the word worst to "best" and you have my opinion. Getting Kimi's market value up to such a level with only nine GP wins to his credit was absolutely magnificent, and I can only congratulate Mr. Räikkönen for having the greatest driver managers ever. That they played hardball with McLaren for 2010 doesn't really matter, since fact is that Kimi had a secure income anyway, so why would he accept driving for less?