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Does the motor racing world owe Gregor Foitek an apology?


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#151 F1matt

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 14:25

With apologies for diverting the thread back to its original topic, I wonder about one other possible villain: the cars. The video footage shows Herbert's, Foitek's and Grouillard's cars being carried away, and every one of them has the front end torn off. It's a miracle that Herbert was the only one with serious leg injuries. Would that kind of front-end carnage be considered normal for the time, or was it a design weakness?



You raise a good point, the front of Paul Warwick's car disintegrated when he crashed at Oulton.

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#152 Henri Greuter

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 16:40

In a Belgian autosport yearbook of 1989, I read that Gregor Foitek had a crash in the Rial during a practice session of the GP of Spain in Jerez.
They wrote that a wing (they don't specify frontwing or back) had broken off due to no fault of Gregor and that it easily could have been a fatal crash had he not been so lucky.

I didn't realize that he had such a serious accident in the Rial, well I did know that if I was a F1 driver that I would never step in to a car of a team run by GĂĽnter Schmid, I don't think he took safety very seriously and he was fighting with everyone all the time: a very passionate but difficult man.

 

Danner had also said that the Rial team was very unprofessional in '89 and that their cars were dangerous but a wing braking off just like that...

 

That accident of Foitek became memorable for another reason.

 

The practice session was redflagged and according the report in Autocourse, track marshals waved all flags, yellow, red and black. All but one driver obeyed instantly, the lone exception: Senna....

Now the ironic art of this was that for that event, Nigel Mansell was banned because of having ignored a black flag in the previous race. He had failed to obey three times, cliaming that he never had seen the flag against the sun while he also was within a fierce battle with Senna ahead of him. It resulted in the infamous crash between Senna and Mansell. The curious thing is that Senna, at least to my knowledge, never told to anyone that he had seen that black flag for Mansell  either, which supports his refusal to let Mansell pass instead of risking a duel to the bitter end. Something he couldn't afford in his fight for the '89 title.

 

Autocourse reported how Senna was `only ` punished with a fine but appeared as if not regretting his act and acknowledging it was a massive driver error.

For me, given the fact that Senna could have seen the many flags waived along the track much better then Mansell his lone black flag (kind of confirmed by Senna's behaviour in the same circumstances) I think there were enough reasons and support to have Senna being banned that weekend or the next event like Mansell. So many claims have always been made that Balestre interfered personally within the battle between Prost and Senna that year. But for whatever reasons, he did not take this near golden opportunity. Perhaps an early case of letting a driver get off the hook not punished sufficiently in order not to interfere with a championship battle?

 

That's what I remember the most of all about Gregor Foitek's impact within motor racing history.....

 

Henri



#153 ensign14

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 18:43

It also shows how asinine F1 penalties have always been.  Remember Mansell was black-flagged for reversing half a yard in the pitlane without any danger to anyone on the planet.

 

But crash into people week after week, or deliberately drive into someone else under yellow, and you get **** all.



#154 kayemod

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 18:51

It also shows how asinine F1 penalties have always been.  Remember Mansell was black-flagged for reversing half a yard in the pitlane without any danger to anyone on the planet.

But crash into people week after week, or deliberately drive into someone else under yellow, and you get **** all.

 

You're absolutely right, but I think the likelihood of a driver getting away with Senna or Schumacher type behaviour is much less today with cameras everywhere, on-car cameras etc, with endless replays. Mind you, if I'd had my way, Senna would still be alive today. He'd just be emerging from prison after his Suzuka sentence, blinking from unacustomed sunlight, and with a tag around his ankle.



#155 William Hunt

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 20:35

You raise a good point, the front of Paul Warwick's car disintegrated when he crashed at Oulton.

 

Paul tested for Arrows in 1989 but in '91 he was dominantly leading the British F3000 championship, was he under consideration for an F1 seat in 1992?

From what I remember he was rumoured to be on the shortlist of Arrows, Tyrrell & Jordan but don't know how serious that was, he was after all only driving in the British and not the International F3000 championship


Edited by William Hunt, 16 July 2017 - 20:37.


#156 Henri Greuter

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 07:06

You're absolutely right, but I think the likelihood of a driver getting away with Senna or Schumacher type behaviour is much less today with cameras everywhere, on-car cameras etc, with endless replays. Mind you, if I'd had my way, Senna would still be alive today. He'd just be emerging from prison after his Suzuka sentence, blinking from unacustomed sunlight, and with a tag around his ankle.

 

 

I would have banned him for the next race like what happened with Mansell. No excuse for the incident taking place `only` in practice and not during the race.

And that next race was: Suzuka.....

And given the fact that Senna used the events of Suzuka 1989 as his defence for justifying the thing he did one year later......

 

How different history of motor racing could have been if only ......

 

 

Henrie


Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 July 2017 - 07:22.


#157 E1pix

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 23:33

Henrie...

You've been hacked. ;-)

#158 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 07:29

You've been hacked. ;-)

 

 

 

Some out here who hate me for my intense disgust of Senna I have vented frequently in the pas will probably accuse me of trying to take on an alias.

 

But I corrected the name in the post, let's see if the hacker returns.....

 

 

Henri



#159 William Hunt

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 11:13

Some out here who hate me for my intense disgust of Senna I have vented frequently in the pas will probably accuse me of trying to take on an alias.

 

I have an intense disgust for Alain Prost and I'm an admirer of Senna.

 

A lot of those drivers characters (and many others) can be explained by looking at their Zodiac sign (and actually not the month of birth but the week and even better day of birth, zodiac sign itself is far far too vague but day of birth is much more precise), but I don't feel like getting attacked on a forum for explaining driver's personalities from their Zodiac but I have done research on this and it turned out to be very revealing.
Prost and Lauda, are born manipulators: their birthday is almost on the same day and believe me that's no coincidence as manipulating and doing things behind the back of others to gain personal advantage is actually the main aspect of people born in that week.

Schumacher's is also very telling (born in a period known for dictators)


Edited by William Hunt, 18 July 2017 - 11:17.


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#160 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 11:28

I have an intense disgust for Alain Prost and I'm an admirer of Senna.

 

A lot of those drivers characters (and many others) can be explained by looking at their Zodiac sign (and actually not the month of birth but the week and even better day of birth, zodiac sign itself is far far too vague but day of birth is much more precise), but I don't feel like getting attacked on a forum for explaining driver's personalities from their Zodiac but I have done research on this and it turned out to be very revealing.
Prost and Lauda, are born manipulators: their birthday is almost on the same day and believe me that's no coincidence as manipulating and doing things behind the back of others to gain personal advantage is actually the main aspect of people born in that week.

 

 

As for me, the only driver I disliked even more after Prost (since the French GP of 1982 that is) is Senna.

Last weekend I was checking a DVD and for a few seconds I heard an interview with Senna. I instantly stopped the disc and almost threw up hearing that voice....

I rather watch a DVD with a GP with unrestricted V10s another time that hearing Senna speak again on DVD. And I believed for a long time that hearing V10s again is the worst thing that can happen to me. (V8Fireworks and some others of the loud engine brigade won't believe these rules I guess....)

 

Lauda, not flawless but kudo's to him how he was part of getting Ferrari out of the doldrums of the early 70's. I think he set the standard for what happened in F1 from then on: testing to make the car better and keep on testing to improve it even further.

 

William, we have entertaining and pleasant conversations elsewhere at the forum, shall we do our best to let this difference of opinion on Senna not come between us, agree to disagree and continue having nice discussions about other subjects?  "extended hand for handshake"

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 July 2017 - 11:29.


#161 William Hunt

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 11:30

The only driver I dislike much more as Prost is Max Verstappen (and his father Jos): they have a dreadful attitude and the father beat up his wife and got involved in several barfights and fistfights on karting tracks: they are hooligans

Behind those three Schumacher would be my number 4 on my dislike list although I actually started to like him a little bit more when he was back at Mercedes (he seemed to have a human side then).

 

I have a dislike for Lauda too, the man seems to have no emotions which is scary and even a bit psycho

 

Apart from those there aren't really any or many I dislike but my dislike for those above is very strong

 

In IndyCar I had a strong dislike for Al Unser Jr., did like his uncle Bobby Unser a lot though: uncle Bobby is cool


Edited by William Hunt, 18 July 2017 - 11:48.


#162 William Hunt

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 11:38


William, we have entertaining and pleasant conversations elsewhere at the forum, shall we do our best to let this difference of opinion on Senna not come between us, agree to disagree and continue having nice discussions about other subjects?  "extended hand for handshake"

 

Henri

 

Henri, I don't take something like driver preference personal and I have absolutely no intention to start a Senna Vs Prost war / discussion, whenever I see that I usually don't post or back out because I don't like that negativity and fighting between forum users (there is enough bashing and heated debate already in Racing Comments), it serves no purpose and I certainly have no intention to engage in it.

 

My favourite driver in those days was actually not Senna at all although I admired him, it was Riccardo Patrese (and also Elio de Angelis)
 

It amazes me that after all those many years the topic can still be so sensitive.
About current drivers or even Schumacher I can imagine but Senna Vs Prost was in the '80s & early '90s, didn't think it would still be so sensitive today.

 

I do have massive respect for Prost's ability to manage and nurture a car, unfortunately nowadays this is a talent that's not so important anymore.

He was also incredibly smooth.
Many of the great champions were very smooth, probably because it was the most efficient and quickest way of driving: Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda were all smooth and calculated drivers. Lauda in particular had a very economical style.


Edited by William Hunt, 18 July 2017 - 11:47.


#163 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 11:49

Henri, I don't take something like driver preference personal and I have absolutely no intention to start a Senna Vs Prost war / discussion, whenever I see that I usually don't post or back out because I don't like that negativity and fighting between forum users, it serves no purpose and I certainly have no intention to engage in it.

 

My favourite driver in those days was actually not Senna at all although I admired him, it was Riccardo Patrese (and also Elio de Angelis)
 

It amazes me that after all those many years the topic can still be sensitive

 

 

 

Thanks. For me it is the best to leave it at this point so I'll do.. But thanks for the explanation.

BTW I did have no favorite drivers anymore during the 80s after May 8th 1982 as intensely as I had till that fateful day.....  A number of them I respected for their achievements. but there wasn't one I liked. Each one of the big four or that time had capabilities I had a lot of respect for but all of them also had negative to utterly negative sides for me as well....

 

Which does mean that I do acknowledge that also Senna had talents I respected him for very much and rate him among the best ever that I have seen if it comes to those particular talents.

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 July 2017 - 11:53.


#164 William Hunt

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 11:51

As for me, the only driver I disliked even more after Prost (since the French GP of 1982 that is)

 

Henri, did you also develop a dislike for Alan Jones after the team order scandal of Williams in Brazil 1981?

I know it didn't make Jones very popular in South America.

I thought it was a absolute disgrace of Williams giving team orders in race 2 of the season. Reutemann was right to disobey, if the team had supported him more throughout that year he would have won the title but he got so demotivated because of it that he let the title slip through his hands at the final race


Edited by William Hunt, 18 July 2017 - 12:23.


#165 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 11:54

Henri, did you also develop a dislike for Alan Jones after the team order scandal of Williams in Brazil 1981?

I know it didn't make Jones very popular in South America.

I thought it was a absulate disgrace of Williams giving team orders in race 2 of the season. Reutemann was right to disobey, if the team had supported him more throughout that year he would have won the title but he got so demotivated because of it that he let the title slip through his hands at the final race

 

 

If I tell you that the Tamiya 1:20 model of the Williams FW07 I had built was the #28 of Reggazoni, answer questioned?

 

Henri



#166 William Hunt

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 11:56

I can highly recommend Jones autobiography though, it's very entertaining but he could be rude on occasions, during his Haas-Lola period the only pleasure he had was giving one-liners to the media I think.

Patrick Tambay, who was a very stylish and classy driver and highly intelligent and cultivated, was clearly the better driver in '86 at Haas.



#167 Michael Ferner

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 12:59

I thought it was a absolute disgrace of Williams giving team orders in race 2 of the season. Reutemann was right to disobey, if the team had supported him more throughout that year he would have won the title but he got so demotivated because of it that he let the title slip through his hands at the final race


Yeah, just like Ferrari at Imola in '82.

#168 William Hunt

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 13:01

Yeah, just like Ferrari at Imola in '82.

 

There were no team orders at Ferrari in '82, there really weren't

 

There was however an informal gentlemen agreement at Ferrari that you didn't do what Pironi did, Jody Scheckter talked about this informal and unofficial rule on the race at Monza he won at '79



#169 F1matt

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 13:42

Paul tested for Arrows in 1989 but in '91 he was dominantly leading the British F3000 championship, was he under consideration for an F1 seat in 1992?

From what I remember he was rumoured to be on the shortlist of Arrows, Tyrrell & Jordan but don't know how serious that was, he was after all only driving in the British and not the International F3000 championship

 

 

His F3 record wasn't wonderful but people talked about F1 tests after his crash, not sure how true they are and I always feel uneasy questioning how far a driver could go after he has died, no doubt his brother could have helped him make contact with the British F1 teams, and help him avoid the pitfalls that he faced, maybe arrange sponsorship money etc. He was dominating the British F3000 championship so he at least earned a shot at the following years International series. Richard Dean's account made me think about the cockpit breaking up and makes me wonder just how strong the cars were and if it was luck that there wasn't more fatalities. 



#170 Charlieman

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 14:25

There are some drivers who I have grown to like a lot. I think my judgement is good because I don't stop liking them if they are pleasant guys. 

 

I read about Senna's FF1600 exploits in Autosport. I was not surprised when he achieved an F1 drive. When I saw video footage from the cockpit around Monaco, it was a WOW minute or two. When I saw video footage of his F1 bumper car years, I lost my admiration. There was that fatalism in how he drove, too.

 

Michael Schumacher was quick and exciting. Working class lads in Accrington should have been excited that a German lad like them was racing in F1; his dad came from the same background. I don't know what went wrong, but Michael Schumacher strutted like a peacock in public. There was something wrong for the British public. And many times, Schumacher was a disgrace on the track.

 

Lewis Hamilton is quick and exciting. His family are working class, he endured hot house training at McLaren and he has spent years growing up as a consequence at the expense of Mercedes-Benz.



#171 William Hunt

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 15:58

Lewis Hamilton is quick and exciting. His family are working class

 

It depends what you call working class, Lewis dad was an IT engineer who first started as an independent and then founded an IT company, so he sold his IT services instead of beiing an employee. He was not rich but not exactly poor. I wouldn't call that working class at all, more (upper) middle class


Edited by William Hunt, 18 July 2017 - 15:59.


#172 kayemod

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 16:32

It depends what you call working class, Lewis dad was an IT engineer who first started as an independent and then founded an IT company, so he sold his IT services instead of beiing an employee. He was not rich but not exactly poor. I wouldn't call that working class at all, more (upper) middle class

 

You clearly don't understand the English class system. It's much less pronounced than it once was, and no reflection at all on the Hamiltons or anyone else, but with a background like that, they could only ever scrape into middle class, most certainly not "upper", never in a million years. "Tradesmans' entrance round the back".



#173 William Hunt

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 16:41

class is more pronounced than before since Thatcher destroyed the British economy with her Friedman & von Hayek based neoliberalism which unfortunately still rules today and spread out over Europe, it created a massive gap in rich-poor, nowadays even words like 'chavs' are used to demonise working class people, very sad indead.

A couple of weeks ago I saw someone in Racing Comments posting 'it's all chavs driving in BTCC these', surely the most disgusting thing I read on this forum in a long while.
I have studied in the UK a year when I was young (student exchange), I would say class is much more pronounced there as in other western European countries.
But that's all seriously off topic.

Back to Gregor Foitek


Edited by William Hunt, 18 July 2017 - 16:43.


#174 kayemod

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 17:21

class is more pronounced than before since Thatcher destroyed the British economy... 

 

I would say class is much more pronounced there as in other western European countries.


Back to Gregor Foitek

 

No, disagree very  profoundly about all that, is this really how things appear to a non-native who's spent a few months here? But at least discussing class has taken us away from the mumbo jumbo of astology. I wonder what Nostradamus would have thought about Senna? Probably that at times he was certifiable.



#175 Mallory Dan

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 19:04

William, I'm, almost, lost for words.....



#176 PCC

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 19:05

Man, this is one weird example of thread-creep...



#177 William Hunt

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 20:38

I shouldn't have brought it up, my mistake, but just one more mention: I am a specialist in macro-economics and economic history is my thing (I'm a Keynesian btw), currently writing a book about the euro crisis (what caused it and how to solve it, I can however tell you that the euro should never have been implemented) which will be published in 6 months. Most people have absolutely no clue on this topic, mainly because they don't know anything about the subject

If anyone wants to talk to me about the subject in a friendly way I'll be more than happy to on a chatbox or something but not on this forum, this is not the place for it

No back on topic please, I apologize and regret for diverting the subject, let's talk racing again please.


Edited by William Hunt, 18 July 2017 - 20:49.


#178 RS250

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 21:44

So what was Gregor Foiteks star sign? The suspense is killing me.

#179 Tim Murray

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 21:57

Born 27th March 1965, so Aries the - er - Ram.  :rotfl:



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#180 William Hunt

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 01:55

Born 27th March 1965, so Aries the - er - Ram.  :rotfl:

 

which is what Senna was and Stoffel Vandoorne (26/3) as well btw ;)



#181 ivandjj

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 10:10

https://www.coopzeit...foitek--144985/

Foitek interview and photo from 2018. Nothing in depth on his racing career. Would be interesting to hear his views on it now.

#182 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 19:21

https://www.coopzeit...foitek--144985/

Foitek interview and photo from 2018. Nothing in depth on his racing career. Would be interesting to hear his views on it now.

 

The most frightening thing about that brief article is the fact Gregor is now a grandfather. Makes me awfully old.



#183 F1matt

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 19:48

I wouldn’t have recognised him now that he has ditched the perm.

#184 Sterzo

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 20:54

Have read this thread for the first time, and found the eye-witness account very interesting. I was one of nine spectators (I counted them) at Hawthorn at the time. There were far more marshals, plus of course spectators before the bridge. I was already well aware of Foitek's reputation for dodgy driving. My impression (and it is only that; without replays from different angles or telemetry to study) was that he was caught out by Herbert's defensive move.

 

One moment that sticks in the mind was that as Foitek lay in the capsized wheel-less tub, and Herbert sat in his car after ricocheting from barrier to barrier, Grouillard (feet trapped) waved at the marshals to attend to the others, not him. I always remembered that during the years when he was derided as an obstructive back-marker.


Edited by Sterzo, 11 May 2019 - 20:58.


#185 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 22:06

I'm somewhat mystified, reading this all again, that 'the racing line' is judged as the determining factor...

 

The drivers race on a road, they find a racing line, the quickest way around, but the whole road is there to be driven upon. Herbert openly states that he took a blocking stance, drove in the middle of the road, so Foitek couldn't go by, but Foitek apparently saw he had room to get his front wheels past Herbert's rear.

 

At that point, giving 'racing room' comes into play, surely? And surely Herbert can't have been aware of exactly how far forward Foitek had come or he wouldn't have moved over further?

 

The severity of the incident then relates to exactly where it took place... at a point where the barrier comes out and presents a real obstacle to an out of control car. Like some have said, had Herbert not been so seriously injured, this conversation would have waited for another day.



#186 ghinzani

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Posted 30 April 2020 - 14:51

The Lambert accident has been discussed in many threads here, eg:

Chris Lambert - was he an F1 star in the making?

so I think that many of us here will know about it.

Chris's mechanic was Tony Dowe, who went on to become TWRs Team Manager. His interviews from pitwall during his time in IMSA with the Jags are a lesson in in English understatement when confronted by the oft brash Yank pit reporters, always makes me laugh his broad Somerset accent and looks of disbelief at some of the frankly dumb questions he was asked. I had a few conversations with Tony regarding his first love, karting and he still preps a few karts for family and the work done is absolutely top notch. His thoughts on his driver Chris Lambert are obviously tinged with emotion and deep set, tempered with the view of 50+ years of hindsight. He believed he was absolutely grade A talent, another one to add to the lost generation. 



#187 elansprint72

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Posted 30 April 2020 - 15:38

Please make it stop.....  :rolleyes: