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F1 in HD - looking unlikely for 2010


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#1 D.M.N.

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:10

I was going to post this in the BBC F1 Coverage thread, but I presume the following is the same for all countries that want to broadcast F1 in HD.

I've recently (again) been in contact with Danielle Nagler, head of BBC HD, regarding the possibility of F1 in HD for 2010. I have, today, received an e-mail off her:

Hi Danielle,

You may remember I contacted you a few months ago regarding F1 in HD on BBC. I was wondering whether you have any update on the situation and if F1 will probably be in HD this year. I hope that F1 is in HD this year, but realise it is beyond the BBC's control. Any response regarding negotiations and how likely percentage wise it is that F1 will be in HD will be great.

Cheers,
Dave.


Hi Dave,

I have had further conversations about this since our last contact, and indeed the BBC has had further discussions with F1 [Formula One Management]. But so far - despite some small moves by F1 which might suggest that they are moving in that direction - we have had nothing from them that suggests we're going to be able to offer any of the grand prix this coming season in HD. There is a feeling of certainty that it will happen at some point - but quite when that will be remains very unclear.

Sorry not to be able to respond in a more reassuring form, but don't want to give you any more hope than I have as to when we're going to be able to bring it to you in HD,

All the best,

Danielle


Doesn't sound at all good really. I think we might as well, unless a near miracle comes along, rule out the prospect of F1 being in HD this year. :(

FOM --> :mad: Not really impressed with FOM to say the least. 5/10 years behind the rest... we're in 2010 and still F1 isn't in HD.

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#2 undersquare

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:13

I was going to post this in the BBC F1 Coverage thread, but I presume the following is the same for all countries that want to broadcast F1 in HD.

I've recently (again) been in contact with Danielle Nagler, head of BBC HD, regarding the possibility of F1 in HD for 2010. I have, today, received an e-mail off her:


Doesn't sound at all good really. I think we might as well, unless a near miracle comes along, rule out the prospect of F1 being in HD this year. :(

FOM --> :mad: Not really impressed with FOM to say the least. 5/10 years behind the rest... we're in 2010 and still F1 isn't in HD.


Thx for the update.

private equity for you :down:

:cry:

#3 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:17

I was going to post this in the BBC F1 Coverage thread, but I presume the following is the same for all countries that want to broadcast F1 in HD.

I've recently (again) been in contact with Danielle Nagler, head of BBC HD, regarding the possibility of F1 in HD for 2010. I have, today, received an e-mail off her:





Doesn't sound at all good really. I think we might as well, unless a near miracle comes along, rule out the prospect of F1 being in HD this year. :(

FOM --> :mad: Not really impressed with FOM to say the least. 5/10 years behind the rest... we're in 2010 and still F1 isn't in HD.

I would love F1 in HD but we don't even get 16:9 widescreen here yet. Of all the countries that show F1, how many are capable of actually showing the races in HD.

Who won't watch F1 because its not HD?
How many would be willing to pay/pay extra for F1 in HD?

#4 primer

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:18

CVC/FOM are not prepared to spend a single cent of 'their' money for this. IMO they will stay SD as long as they can since they know people will tune in to watch, HD or SD. :|

It is quite pathetic, HD acquisition and broadcast is not as expensive as it once was.

#5 sblick

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:19

Piss poor and horrible. "We are the pinnacle of motorsport" but we can't bring you a race in HD. :mad: I get the IRL in HD give me a break FOM

#6 D.M.N.

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:21

I would love F1 in HD but we don't even get 16:9 widescreen here yet. Of all the countries that show F1, how many are capable of actually showing the races in HD.

Who won't watch F1 because its not HD?
How many would be willing to pay/pay extra for F1 in HD?


I don't think people would tune out because its not HD, I just think that FOM are terribly behind the times. Programmes are going from SD to HD each and every day. Sports are in HD, football, rugby, NASCAR... hell, even wrestling is in HD!

I know in the UK, HD uptake is increasing steadily, just last week I think Top Gear recorded its highest ever figure on BBC HD of 500,000. At least 2.5m people I think have HD in the UK at the moment.

#7 undersquare

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:21

CVC/FOM are not prepared to spend a single cent of 'their' money for this. IMO they will stay SD as long as they can since they know people will tune in to watch, HD or SD. :|

It is quite pathetic, HD acquisition and broadcast is not as expensive as it once was.


That's right, it needs to be either someone who cares about the sport, or the sponsors. They'd certainly like their logos in HD.

#8 robracer

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:34

I don't have a HD TV. What's the difference between HD and SD?

#9 primer

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:34

Of all the countries that show F1, how many are capable of actually showing the races in HD.

Instead of number of countries, a better measure would be the number of people who have got HD. You see, the HD signal can always be downsampled to SD in real time for those markets where there is no HD delivery medium, at worst some 4:3 markets will see little black bars due to the different aspect ratio. In other respects the image should be better for them too thanks to downsampling. It is utter cheapness and apathy of CVC/FOM that is keeping them from moving to HD.

Who won't watch F1 because its not HD?

This is what they count on!

How many would be willing to pay/pay extra for F1 in HD?

We are nearly at the point where acquiring and broadcasting in SD is no cheaper (and might even be more expensive) than HD. The cost of 'hard infrastructure' like cameras is a pittance compared to the real expenses of running a broadcast company: payroll, transportation, insurance etc.

#10 primer

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:35

I don't have a HD TV. What's the difference between HD and SD?


Like broadband and dial-up.

#11 alecc

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:36

How many would be willing to pay/pay extra for F1 in HD?


I would pay extra for F1 in HD.
That is really a shame, even the Polish football league is transmitted over here in HD, and it's one of the poorest and worst football leagues in Europe!

#12 Colinmcc

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:38

I think Sky Italia offer F1 in HD and Premiere in Germany do also, may be wrong but I'm almost certain that Sky Italia def do. Be excellent to have F1 in HD, hopefully there will be some movement on it.

#13 Ringo

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:39

Bernie got burned with new technology at the start of the last decade, so there's no way he's going to jump on the HD boat until it's cheaper for him to do so.

It's just the cold reality of cash. Why pay over the odds for the HD equipment today when it'll be half the price in 12 months?

Case in point - if you'd signed up to Sky HD 12 months ago the box would have cost you £100. Now they're giving them away for free.

I have it on good authority however that as soon as Bernie does go HD, it'll be a lot more than just HD. Seriously, the ideas that some of the boys over at FOM have got will blow the cobwebs out of this sport's ass.

#14 alecc

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:41

I don't have a HD TV. What's the difference between HD and SD?


Go to screen properties of your computer, and change your resolution to 640x480, that's SD, if you can't, set 800x600, and that's better than SD.
Now go back to your native resolution (something like 1200x800 at most), that is something like HD (720p)
Or go to

turn on/of the HD, but on YT, the HD is worse than HD from satellite/cabel TV.

#15 Lukin83

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:46

I would love F1 in HD but we don't even get 16:9 widescreen here yet. Of all the countries that show F1, how many are capable of actually showing the races in HD.

Who won't watch F1 because its not HD?
How many would be willing to pay/pay extra for F1 in HD?


Football World Cup will have HD and 3D [!!!] broadcast, meanwhile F1 - so called hi-tech sport - stays in a dark age. Hell, I just imagined how awesome would be to have 3D on-boards... Probably in 2020 :p


#16 robracer

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:47

Go to screen properties of your computer, and change your resolution to 640x480, that's SD, if you can't, set 800x600, and that's better than SD.
Now go back to your native resolution (something like 1200x800 at most), that is something like HD (720p)
Or go to

turn on/of the HD, but on YT, the HD is worse than HD from satellite/cabel TV.


Thanks, I see why people want it in HD, it's alot better.

#17 Kucki

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:50

Oh man. You can see NASCAR in HD since 2005, but F1 still doesnt have the technology in 2010.

Go to http://www.goprocame.../hdheropreview/ click on the videos to the right, there are several videos and a Formula car video HD, now imagine it in full screen and with an F1 car. But this camera is a handheld amateur video cam that anyone can buy. Professionell productions look even better.

You can go to racing-underground torrent site and download some NASCAR races in HD. If you have never seen Motorsport in HD before - you will be blown away.

Edited by Kucki, 07 January 2010 - 13:51.


#18 Don_Humpador

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:50

Can't say I feel a great deal of sympathy as I sit near my ye-olde (a year and a half) DVR.

HD is great and all but my family and I don't feel the urgent desire to go out and buy anything so soon after our last one.

Since we're still getting Freeview (the basic digital package), I can't really relate to the emotional torment many here appear to be feeling. From my perspective on the BBC, they should have kept channel 302 to keep wider coverage of all live or non-live events, which includes F1, amongst many.

But they didn't, they decided to sell it to make way for HD bandwidth, now we have less sporting or arts events available to us, so I can't really feel much for all you HD users out there!

Tough luck I guess. You'll get your HD F1 in the end, but we'll still get limited coverage of sports and arts :)

Edited by Don_Humpador, 07 January 2010 - 13:50.


#19 Clatter

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:51

I would love F1 in HD but we don't even get 16:9 widescreen here yet. Of all the countries that show F1, how many are capable of actually showing the races in HD.

Who won't watch F1 because its not HD?
How many would be willing to pay/pay extra for F1 in HD?


Not widescreen :eek: I assume thats a local broadcaster issue rather than FOM.

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#20 Slartibartfast

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:52

I was going to post this in the BBC F1 Coverage thread, but I presume the following is the same for all countries that want to broadcast F1 in HD.

I've recently (again) been in contact with Danielle Nagler, head of BBC HD, regarding the possibility of F1 in HD for 2010. I have, today, received an e-mail off her:





Doesn't sound at all good really. I think we might as well, unless a near miracle comes along, rule out the prospect of F1 being in HD this year. :(

FOM --> :mad: Not really impressed with FOM to say the least. 5/10 years behind the rest... we're in 2010 and still F1 isn't in HD.

Thanks for your efforts and keeping us informed, D.M.N.

I would love F1 in HD but we don't even get 16:9 widescreen here yet. Of all the countries that show F1, how many are capable of actually showing the races in HD.

Who won't watch F1 because its not HD?
How many would be willing to pay/pay extra for F1 in HD?

Sums it up, really.
Where is the incentive for F.O.M. to replace all their SD kit with HD? It will happen eventually, but I suspect they are only replacing SD components with HD ones on a piecemeal basis, as the kit becomes due for renewal. One day they will have a full HD broadcast chain, then they will offer it to their clients, probably at a premium compared to the SD signal.


#21 rage2

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 13:55




2 short clips I shot in HD at the Spanish GP this year (make sure you press HD and fullscreen). Makes me sad that my prosumer equipment gives better video quality than FOM.

Edited by rage2, 07 January 2010 - 13:56.


#22 wingwalker

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 14:18




2 short clips I shot in HD at the Spanish GP this year (make sure you press HD and fullscreen). Makes me sad that my prosumer equipment gives better video quality than FOM.




AWESOME! It's more than 25 frames per second, right?

#23 King Six

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 14:39

Considering the amount of money and pure excess involved in Formula 1, it should have been one of the first to adopt HD. Especially in the pre-financial crisis era. It's all about of a joke really. On one hand you have Bernie demanding ridiculous amounts of money from track owners, on the other they're too cheap to get HD setup.

#24 FlashMaster

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 15:01

I think Sky Italia offer F1 in HD and Premiere in Germany do also, may be wrong but I'm almost certain that Sky Italia def do. Be excellent to have F1 in HD, hopefully there will be some movement on it.


Yes they tell the dumb tv viewers that their feed is HD, but it's not. They sell upscaled SD material as HD and nothing more. Last year one(!) onboard camera was in real HD at some GPs (like Vettel in Germany)

#25 Jodum5

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 15:08

Anybody look into the penetration of HD globally? FOM may not be in any major rush to broadcast in HD if continents like South America and Asia (not to mention Africa, eastern half of Europe) OR in better terms a significant portion of its viewership are lagging behind. You can't watch HD on standard definition television and if people are willing to sit through (ugly) 4:3 on 16:9 what's the point of upgrading just for aesthetics sake? Especially if they'd have to invest in broadcasting in both standard and HD to satisfy all markets.

By the way the videos above were great.

Edited by Jodum5, 07 January 2010 - 15:12.


#26 pingu666

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 15:10

HD would likely attract new viewers... i think the dakar is broadcast in HD now too, it *might* be upscaled SD, notsure

#27 Jambo

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 15:25

Its amusing that some sports have now moved on to 3D when F1 still hasn't reached HD.

#28 pingu666

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 15:32

i just looked at racing underground and such world leading sports as the canadian rally championship is in HD, and the IOM TT :D

widespread HD broadcasting should be progressing through the UK this year, as freeview transmitters get updated, ours is due in april

#29 Clatter

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 15:38

i just looked at racing underground and such world leading sports as the canadian rally championship is in HD, and the IOM TT :D

widespread HD broadcasting should be progressing through the UK this year, as freeview transmitters get updated, ours is due in april


Broadcasting will progress, but how quick will the uptake be? For most people it will require the purchase of yet another STB, and I think that will be the stmbling point.

#30 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 15:48

This week The Hairy Bikers was shown in HD, but the pinnacle of world motorsport, which the BBC pays millions a season just for the rights of cannot be shown in anything other than SD.....

seems right.

#31 carbonfibre

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 16:00

Come on bernie time to move on and finally give us HD!

#32 Rob

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 16:01

F1 can be such a dinosaur at times.

#33 D.M.N.

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 16:21

What I hate about trying to persuade FOM is that none of the F1 media back us up, try and 'help our case' as it were to try and push the HD movement forward a lot. I mean, the last Autosport article on the issue I can find is from 2007. (actual article that is, not something in the features section) The only website that has some regular updates on HD is F1 Fanatic:

- http://www.f1fanatic...-hd-f1-in-2009/
- http://www.f1fanatic...w-at-abu-dhabi/
- http://www.f1fanatic...tball-3d-hd-f1/

None of the other F1 media sites appear to care (of course, the broadcasters themselves can't comment, but there's nothing stopping Autosport etc. commenting - they never even reported on the Abu Dhabi rumour last year)

Don't the F1 media think the same as us, that F1 is terribly behind the times? Why don't the F1 media guys try and back us, try and push the case? Or are they scared of losing their pit passes? :confused:

#34 D.M.N.

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 16:24

BBC appear to have had an F1 meeting with regards to 2010 today... Lee McKenzie on her Twitter says that HD is now likely for 2011: http://twitter.com/LeeMcKenzieF1

#35 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 16:28

Anybody look into the penetration of HD globally? FOM may not be in any major rush to broadcast in HD if continents like South America and Asia (not to mention Africa, eastern half of Europe) OR in better terms a significant portion of its viewership are lagging behind. You can't watch HD on standard definition television and if people are willing to sit through (ugly) 4:3 on 16:9 what's the point of upgrading just for aesthetics sake? Especially if they'd have to invest in broadcasting in both standard and HD to satisfy all markets.

By the way the videos above were great.


Lets get a few things into perspective. The technological cost of filming and broadcasting in HD compared to SD is negligible, compared to the income generated in F1 by FOM. My £600 Canon 500D DSLR camera, does better quality home movies compared to the images F1 broadcast. :eek: What is the world coming to when you can watch league 1 MK Dons vs Norwich in HD and not F1? :rolleyes: The solution is simple, F1 should be filmed in HD as standard and those countries capable of broadcasting in HD can show it, and those who cant show it SD. This way everybody is happy. The cost issue is a major Red Herring. Even the darts and premier league snooker is in HD. :mad: F1 and Bernie should be ashamed of themselves. The difference in picture quality between HD and SD is striking.

#36 D.M.N.

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 16:52

The cost issue is a major Red Herring. Even the darts and premier league snooker is in HD. :mad:


I wonder how much it'd cost to produce HD coverage for 19 races - hell, they *could* for a first year just have HD for select races (season opener, Australia, Britain, Monaco, season closer) as a 'taster' before expanding to every race.

#37 JPW

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 17:07

The cost issue is a major Red Herring. Even the darts and premier league snooker is in HD. :mad: F1 and Bernie should be ashamed of themselves.

Well one would think that the _only_ thing stopping them from going HD is the cost issue, so not so much a Red Herring me thinks.
Also with darts and snooker the amount of cameras (equipment) involved would be significantly less I would think.

Anyway although I would love to see F1 in HD, I'm fine to wait another year (or two) until it makes economically sense for F1 to switch to HD.



#38 pRy

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 17:18

Don't the F1 media think the same as us, that F1 is terribly behind the times? Why don't the F1 media guys try and back us, try and push the case? Or are they scared of losing their pit passes? :confused:


Speaking as someone who watches F1 on Freeview, I couldn't care less about HD F1. I wouldn't be able to watch it in HD even if it were available, and I won't be buying a Sky or Cable subscription to watch it in HD either. I don't think HD F1 is as important to the masses as you suggest.. I'd be more concerned about it remaining as free to air.

I don't speak on behalf of the entire F1 media circus but I'm not sure why you feel it's their job to push this issue forward? The F1 media report news, they don't launch campaigns to change F1 TV coverage standards. For example what does the TV coverage of F1 have to do with Autosport? They're not a media magazine.

The people who need to push this issue forward are the viewers.. and if you feel strongly about it, start a facebook group. Then perhaps if that group gets a large number of followers, THEN the media may pick up the story. But until then I think you're going to have quite a long wait if you expect the F1 media to launch a crusade for HD F1. It really isn't worth their time.

#39 r4mses

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 17:21

European Club football is broadcasted in HD aswell... I doubt you need considerably less cameras and stuff for a football match (basically a few matches at the same time on match days) compared to an F1 race.

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#40 Clatter

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 17:22

I wonder how much it'd cost to produce HD coverage for 19 races - hell, they *could* for a first year just have HD for select races (season opener, Australia, Britain, Monaco, season closer) as a 'taster' before expanding to every race.


How would that help cost wise? The FOM take their own kit to the races so if they have the HD kit at the first race they may as well take it to all races.

#41 Clatter

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 17:24

Speaking as someone who watches F1 on Freeview, I couldn't care less about HD F1. I wouldn't be able to watch it in HD even if it were available, and I won't be buying a Sky or Cable subscription to watch it in HD either. I don't think HD F1 is as important to the masses as you suggest.. I'd be more concerned about it remaining as free to air.

I don't speak on behalf of the entire F1 media circus but I'm not sure why you feel it's their job to push this issue forward? The F1 media report news, they don't launch campaigns to change F1 TV coverage standards. For example what does the TV coverage of F1 have to do with Autosport? They're not a media magazine.

The people who need to push this issue forward are the viewers.. and if you feel strongly about it, start a facebook group. Then perhaps if that group gets a large number of followers, THEN the media may pick up the story. But until then I think you're going to have quite a long wait if you expect the F1 media to launch a crusade for HD F1. It really isn't worth their time.


You missed the news about HD coming to Freeview then?

#42 plastik2k9

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 17:27

One step at a time guys; F1 still doesn't even have widescreen friendly graphics. Don't quote me on this one, but I think some F1 recordings I have from 2006 or 2007 were actually broadcast in 4:3 (meanwhile, the World Cup was broadcast in HD). Maybe they should wait until 3D becomes mainstream, or maybe super HD.

#43 plastik2k9

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 17:37

Speaking as someone who watches F1 on Freeview, I couldn't care less about HD F1. I wouldn't be able to watch it in HD even if it were available, and I won't be buying a Sky or Cable subscription to watch it in HD either. I don't think HD F1 is as important to the masses as you suggest.. I'd be more concerned about it remaining as free to air.

Well there's always BBC iPlayer for HD content, and plus I'm sure the BBC will stream HD on the internet within the next 5 years. You've also got Freeview HD starting in 2010 and everywhere by 2012, and also Freesat HD which is already out.

You make a point with remaining free-to-air though. I don't know how long the BBC contract is, but perhaps Bernie is considering teaming up with someone like Sky (perhaps not Sky, but a major broadcaster perhaps); they provide the HD know-how and equipment, and Bernie gives them a cheaper deal. F1 goes HD globally, and Sky (or whoever) get even more subscribers. HD could potentially pose a threat to F1 remaining free-to-air in that sense, but I'm only speculating. I would take F1 as it is if it means staying free.

#44 MinT

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 17:42

Given the way BBC are intent on dumbing down the bitrate I cant imagine by 2011 we will be able to tell if its broadcast in HD or not tbh....

Edited by MinT, 07 January 2010 - 17:42.


#45 Don_Humpador

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 18:06

You missed the news about HD coming to Freeview then?


You still need new equipment, which is one of many reasons Freeview users may not move to more up to date services.

Speaking as someone who watches F1 on Freeview, I couldn't care less about HD F1. I wouldn't be able to watch it in HD even if it were available, and I won't be buying a Sky or Cable subscription to watch it in HD either. I don't think HD F1 is as important to the masses as you suggest.. I'd be more concerned about it remaining as free to air.

I don't speak on behalf of the entire F1 media circus but I'm not sure why you feel it's their job to push this issue forward? The F1 media report news, they don't launch campaigns to change F1 TV coverage standards. For example what does the TV coverage of F1 have to do with Autosport? They're not a media magazine.

The people who need to push this issue forward are the viewers.. and if you feel strongly about it, start a facebook group. Then perhaps if that group gets a large number of followers, THEN the media may pick up the story. But until then I think you're going to have quite a long wait if you expect the F1 media to launch a crusade for HD F1. It really isn't worth their time.

:up:

When you think about it, F1 fans in the UK are doubly screwed. Firstly, the move to only 1 red button coverage channel and secondly, the idea to remove that aforementioned channel was to get HD, which F1 fans can't get anyway :rotfl:

:|


#46 fifi

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 18:30

Well there's always BBC iPlayer for HD content, and plus I'm sure the BBC will stream HD on the internet within the next 5 years. You've also got Freeview HD starting in 2010 and everywhere by 2012, and also Freesat HD which is already out.


but iplayer in hd will consume massive amounts of bandwidth and considering all the ISPs who have some kind of limit for a lot of people wont be worth it

#47 revmeister

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 19:08

I'm pretty sure that F1 races are produced by the each country's host broadcaster. So whether or not F1 is broadcast in HD, in HD dominant countries such as Canada it will be most likely shot in HD. The signal you get at home probably depends on your broadcaster. It may be that F1 won't allow HD transmission for the sake of consistency.

In Canada, most pro sports are produced in HD and the signal is available in SD or HD on different channels. Nearly all mobile production trucks here are HD, except for a few very old ones.

I work as an independent cameraman covering NHL news, and I bought my HD camera four years ago. These days HD broadcast cameras cost the same as SD, though there are very few SD cameras available anymore.

#48 Kucki

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 19:21

Its amusing that some sports have now moved on to 3D when F1 still hasn't reached HD.


Yeah there are rumours that NASCAR (on HD since 5 years) want to offer 3DTV in 2011. While F1 is stuck in the 90s

Edited by Kucki, 07 January 2010 - 19:22.


#49 Clatter

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 19:32

You still need new equipment, which is one of many reasons Freeview users may not move to more up to date services. :|


I know you need a new STB, and that will affect the takeup, but it will be available on Freeview contrary to what was said before. Of course the price for that is that Free Practise will probably not be avialable on Freeview.

#50 Clatter

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 19:34

but iplayer in hd will consume massive amounts of bandwidth and considering all the ISPs who have some kind of limit for a lot of people wont be worth it


There are some ISP's without limits, and as BT rollout the new fibre network greater bandwidth and speeds will become available.