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Why do some drivers get so overpraised?


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#1 Dunc

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 13:57

I'm thinking her particulalry of Robert Kubica. I've been re-reading some back issues of Autosport and a few other magazines during a period of Spring cleaning and almost all of them have drooling commments related to RK. Why?

I accept he's a talented driver but he hasn't actually achieved all that much in the sport yet, shouldn't he have to do that before he gets the praise?

But it raises a wider point, why is it that some drivers get this kind of hype?

Nico Rosberg is another one who seems to get hype without having achieved much.

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#2 Beamer

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:01

I'm thinking her particulalry of Robert Kubica. I've been re-reading some back issues of Autosport and a few other magazines during a period of Spring cleaning and almost all of them have drooling commments related to RK. Why?

I accept he's a talented driver but he hasn't actually achieved all that much in the sport yet, shouldn't he have to do that before he gets the praise?

But it raises a wider point, why is it that some drivers get this kind of hype?

Nico Rosberg is another one who seems to get hype without having achieved much.


It's because of what they do with the equipment they're given. Not about absolute results. Alonso was spectacular in a minardi allthouhg he never finished higher than 10th place. Allthough I too don't quite understand the Kubica hype.

#3 Nuvol

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:04

didnt pay for tests/ racing seat. Won during 2 year of starts plus got a pole.

And do we really need another threead about him?

Who cares you dont like Kubica hype? go and cry to your mom.

#4 Orin

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:15

It's hard to justify the Kubica hype, much of which derives from the praise of other drivers, but he could yet make his mark: it was hard to say how much of his inconsistency was down to the BMW car, which seemed tricky to set-up. The jury's still out IMO.

#5 Dunc

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:17

Who cares you dont like Kubica hype? go and cry to your mom.


I was trying to make the point that some drivers get too praised before they have actually achieved very much. RK is just my example, there are others.

Rosberg, Kobayashi and, IMO, Sutil would also fall into this category.

#6 craftverk

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:18

It's because of what they do with the equipment they're given. Not about absolute results. Alonso was spectacular in a minardi allthouhg he never finished higher than 10th place. Allthough I too don't quite understand the Kubica hype.

I think it should be more to do with the quality of their team mates. We saw Webber crush Rosberg in 2006, since then Rosberg has only had Wurz and Nakajima, with both not being the best benchmarks out there.

#7 Dunc

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:18

It's hard to justify the Kubica hype, much of which derives from the praise of other drivers, but he could yet make his mark: it was hard to say how much of his inconsistency was down to the BMW car, which seemed tricky to set-up. The jury's still out IMO.


I quite agree, surely we should be praising drivers when they actually have made their mark on the sport and not before.

#8 pgj

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:20

It is a bit previous to talk about Kobayashi. He impressed me with his determination, even if his driving etiquette was a little on the short side.

#9 noikeee

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:28

Top F1 journalists don't base their opinions only on watching the races and looking at the results as most of us do, they frequently talk to team members, which in turn have access to more things: mostly telemetry, and the everyday interaction with the drivers. From what I've read around, my impression is that the teams seem to rate Kubica very high on talent and potential.

Also, he comes from a very odd birthplace for a racing driver, as there are no major economical interests in Poland. That actually works in his favour now that he's settled into F1, because the teams realise he got there through talent alone. Add to all of this the fact he's had more spectacular moments than Heidfeld, even if Nick's been more consistent - that podium in Monza in only his 2nd race, the win in Canada, the 08 season where he fought for the title despite perception that his car was clearly slower than the top 2, etc etc - and what we get is more hype than what the results would normally amount to.

Here's hoping that he gets those results soon. :up:

#10 Gareth

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:32

I quite agree, surely we should be praising drivers when they actually have made their mark on the sport and not before.

Depends how you mean "made their mark". If only bags of championships and race wins count towards making their mark, then I can see that it might be fair enough for some of the drivers you mention to not get praised. I think, however, for many their view of F1 is more than just a statistical one and they are therefore impressed by quality performances in lesser cars that don't necessarily lead to WDCs and race wins. So someone can make their mark, and get praised for it, before they've made a statistical dent.

#11 alecc

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:37

Top F1 journalists don't base their opinions only on watching the races and looking at the results as most of us do, they frequently talk to team members, which in turn have access to more things: mostly telemetry, and the everyday interaction with the drivers. From what I've read around, my impression is that the teams seem to rate Kubica very high on talent and potential.

Also, he comes from a very odd birthplace for a racing driver, as there are no major economical interests in Poland. That actually works in his favour now that he's settled into F1, because the teams realise he got there through talent alone. Add to all of this the fact he's had more spectacular moments than Heidfeld, even if Nick's been more consistent - that podium in Monza in only his 2nd race, the win in Canada, the 08 season where he fought for the title despite perception that his car was clearly slower than the top 2, etc etc - and what we get is more hype than what the results would normally amount to.

Here's hoping that he gets those results soon. :up:


:up:
But Robert had his podium on Monza on his 3rd race, not 2nd (HUN-DNF,TUR-12th), greets :)

#12 undersquare

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:44

Well Kubi has a good presence, confidence, that's so important in people's perceptions. I remember a year or two ago Heidfeld letting some big guy, an American footballer or something, throw him around over his shoulder as some kind of stunt, that's the other extreme. Maybe it was after that he grew a beard :lol: .

Also I think Robert's extreme determination does come across. I for one would like to see him in a top car, see what happens.

#13 thiscocks

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:48

Depends how you mean "made their mark". If only bags of championships and race wins count towards making their mark, then I can see that it might be fair enough for some of the drivers you mention to not get praised. I think, however, for many their view of F1 is more than just a statistical one and they are therefore impressed by quality performances in lesser cars that don't necessarily lead to WDCs and race wins. So someone can make their mark, and get praised for it, before they've made a statistical dent.


Well said. Villeneuve is a good example of this. Never had the results to equal his superstar status, but it was his drives that earn't him that not results.

#14 Willow Rosenberg

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:49

Depends how you mean "made their mark". If only bags of championships and race wins count towards making their mark, then I can see that it might be fair enough for some of the drivers you mention to not get praised. I think, however, for many their view of F1 is more than just a statistical one and they are therefore impressed by quality performances in lesser cars that don't necessarily lead to WDCs and race wins. So someone can make their mark, and get praised for it, before they've made a statistical dent.


Exactly - you can do a good job in F1 without winning. RK is at least as deserving as Vettel. I prefer this to drivers being overlooked simply because they don't have a race-winning car. :)

#15 Jose Mourinho is Special

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:51

Kubica most overrated driver ever :up:

#16 cheapracer

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 15:02

Well said. Villeneuve is a good example of this. Never had the results to equal his superstar status, but it was his drives that earn't him that not results.


Well besides 6 wins I think you should check his results further including where he was when he often retired.

Not to disclude 2nd in the WDC either only to his teammate.

I don't rate Kubica at all, he's been the equal of Heidfeld, wow.


#17 thiscocks

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 15:10

Well besides 6 wins I think you should check his results further including where he was when he often retired.

Not to disclude 2nd in the WDC either only to his teammate.

I don't rate Kubica at all, he's been the equal of Heidfeld, wow.


Yes he had pretty good results but as he was probably the most highly rated driver in F1 in the early 80's there were plenty of drivers with better results than him. Also his lack of mechanical sympathy didn't help him finish the races he was doing well in.

#18 corf

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 15:18

Vettel is the one for me, while he shows much promise he hasnt really delivered yet. This season he barely beat an injured teammate, made mistakes and couldnt overtake slower cars when he really needed to. Yet many rate him up there with Alsono and Hamilton.

Edited by corf, 12 January 2010 - 15:19.


#19 Slowinfastout

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 15:33

Some drivers are also simply recognized by their peers as having bags of talent, because of how they performed outside of F1...

Not making any direct comparisons, but that explains some of the aura around the Villeneuves and Kubica, for instance.. Gilles was an absolute monster with anything he touched before reaching F1.

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#20 DemonH720

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 15:56

For me yes there are a few drivers that were overpraised, one of which was Kimi Raikkonen... sure he was fast, but he was also very inconsistent. When he was at McLaren I used to say that he would NEVER win a world drivers championship due to his inconsistency (and also his apparent talent for blowing up the McLaren engines, which his team-mates didn't do even half as much). The way I see it, sure he was good when he was in the Ferrari and all credit to him for pulling back in the final half of 07, but when it comes down to it Lewis lost that title in China rather than Kimi winning it really.

2009 also showed his inconsistency, funny how he only seemed to be fast after Massa was out of the equation and it was too late for Kimi to really mount a serious WDC Challenge.

That said I look forward to seeing how he does in WRC, although I seem to remember crashing out of his own home rally when he had a go last year.

Edited by DemonH720, 12 January 2010 - 16:03.


#21 Beamer

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:19

I think it should be more to do with the quality of their team mates. We saw Webber crush Rosberg in 2006, since then Rosberg has only had Wurz and Nakajima, with both not being the best benchmarks out there.


True, the teammate is the only true comparison of what a driver can do with the given equipment.

#22 D.M.N.

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:25

First person that comes to mind here is Jean-Christopher Boullion.

* waits for a lot of people to say "who?" *

#23 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:26

2009 also showed his inconsistency, funny how he only seemed to be fast after Massa was out of the equation and it was too late for Kimi to really mount a serious WDC Challenge.

A serious WDC challenge in 2009? :rolleyes:



#24 noikeee

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:31

First person that comes to mind here is Jean-Christopher Boullion.

* waits for a lot of people to say "who?" *


I know he was a Williams test driver in the 90s, and raced for Sauber once or twice, but my knowledge ends there. When and why was he overpraised?

#25 DemonH720

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:33

A serious WDC challenge in 2009? :rolleyes:


OK maybe for 3rd or 4th then?  ;) and race wins like he did get...

#26 D.M.N.

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:39

I know he was a Williams test driver in the 90s, and raced for Sauber once or twice, but my knowledge ends there. When and why was he overpraised?


I know he was getting praised a lot by Williams because he was seen by quite a few people as the next big talent because of success in the lower formulas. But when he got to F1, the talent failed to materialise.

So you could argue he was overpraised and overhyped when he really wasn't that good.

#27 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:39

OK maybe for 3rd or 4th then? ;) and race wins like he did get...

Car was never good enough. Even at Spa, where he used Fisi's inability to pass and a defensive strategy to stay in 1st, his car was obviously still only 3rd fastest at best.

#28 velgajski1

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:52

I think that Kubica might be similar to Button in some way. Started as pretty good talent, but didn't quite get best car out there to show what he's truly capable. Maybe in the future he gets lucky getting a good seat and wins a title like Button did.

But all in all, rating him as Hamilton/Massa/Alonso just now isn't justified I think.


#29 F1_conman

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:55


But all in all, rating him as Hamilton/Massa/Alonso just now isn't justified I think.
[/quote]

Well said if you remove Massa from the above statement. Massa is not in the same boat as Alonso or Hamilton. At least not yet.


#30 fullcourseyellow

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:57

The two most overrated driver who haven't been mentioned are Trulli and Webber. Trulli - great qualifier, lousy racer. If F-1 is all about qualifying, then he's a superstar. But he was never a good racer. Webber - only this year did he bring in some useful results, but then he was overshadowed by Vettel. If Webber is that good, he should have dominated Vettel.

#31 Gemini

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:57

I'm thinking her particulalry of Robert Kubica. I've been re-reading some back issues of Autosport and a few other magazines during a period of Spring cleaning and almost all of them have drooling commments related to RK. Why?

I accept he's a talented driver but he hasn't actually achieved all that much in the sport yet, shouldn't he have to do that before he gets the praise?


Are they are writing he achieved much? Does he get the paise for that? Or do they just write they think he is talented?

Seems exactly what your agree agreeing with. So what is your problem?




#32 kar

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 16:59

Halo effect with a little cognitive dissonance and group think thrown in for good measure.

#33 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 17:02

A top driver who got stuck in a dog of car and a limp team in 09.

BMW literally fell to pieces.

Really, what more is there to it than that?

He's probablys stuck in a midfield car at best for 2010 so if ever there was a case of talent going wasted, it's probably Kubica.





#34 Buttoneer

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 17:05

The question here is 'Why do some drivers get overpraised?', not so much 'who'. This isn't a thread for picking your driver to bash and then bashing.

#35 pgj

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 17:09

I suppose that the over-praise bit comes from being aboard an effective PR machine. If journalists are kept informed and made to feel important by being fed the odd crumb of information that helps them to earn their living, then why not? An outstanding driver does not need so much PR support, they do it for themselves on-track. There is nothing wrong with the adage, you scratch my back and I will scratch yours though.

[edit]

...that allows helps them to earn their living...

Edited by pgj, 12 January 2010 - 17:14.


#36 korzeniow

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 17:30

I think that Kubica might be similar to Button in some way. Started as pretty good talent, but didn't quite get best car out there to show what he's truly capable. Maybe in the future he gets lucky getting a good seat and wins a title like Button did.

But all in all, rating him as Hamilton/Massa/Alonso just now isn't justified I think.


Nah, I don't thik that careers of those two are similar. I don't think of Kubica as a playboy. I don't think Kubica would choose bigger salary over better seat. I don't think he will earn a top seat by luck, I think he will earn it by hrd work and good performance.

#37 werks prototype

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 17:44

I think the phenomena of 'over hype' boils down to a simple question of 'hope'. But my alarm bells would start to ring when a driver receives consistent praise from other drivers. It can only be that this driver, it has already been determined 'poses no significant threat' surely.

#38 Slowinfastout

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 17:50

But my alarm bells would start to ring when a driver receives consistent praise from other drivers. It can only be that this driver, it has already been determined 'poses no significant threat' surely.


That sure explains all the praise Schumacher has been receiving lately... :rolleyes:

#39 pingu666

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 21:03

koba is easy to explain, he jumped in and was more entertaining than lewis(or equal), when you consider how much lewis has kept f1 interesting in various ways for the past 3 years, then you relise thats huge :). koba was also pretty much left alone and none of that star of the future bullshit thats often spouted, especialy when its someone like lewis or vettel who have already won races, there already "stars" of there sport.

i guess there hyped up aswell to generate interest, or try too...

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#40 r4mses

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 00:23

I was trying to make the point that some drivers get too praised before they have actually achieved very much. RK is just my example, there are others.

Rosberg, Kobayashi and, IMO, Sutil would also fall into this category.


I agree on Rosberg and especially Kobayashi, but I don't think Sutil is overrated... otherwise he wouldn't start his 4th season for Spyker/Force India.

Vettel might be overrated because people expected him - thanks to media coverage - to be like Schumacher.

/Edit: Why do some drivers get so overpraised?
Media, I'd say. I don't think you'll see another hyped German driver anytime soon (except hyped in German media ofc), but if there's a promising American, Russian, Indian, or Chinese driver joining F1... boom.
Kubica (Poland, Eastern Europe) and Kobayashi (Japan, Asia) on one hand and Buemi (France/Swiss) - who did well but is far away from being hyped - on the other hand match that idea.

Edited by r4mses, 13 January 2010 - 00:30.


#41 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:25

Webber - only this year did he bring in some useful results

Hmmmm.....and what changed this year.............

Certainly has nothing to do with him finally getting a top car, right? No, couldn't be it.

And since very few people rate Webber as top-tier, I dont see how he's overrated in general. As far as him not blowing Vettel away, that may speak as much for Vettel's talent as anything, ya know? Its all about what perspective you see it from.

Edited by Seanspeed, 13 January 2010 - 01:25.


#42 Muz Bee

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 02:20

All drivers on the grid have been "overpraised" as you like to put it, at some point by someone, so what?
Button was the next Clark, Hamilton is going to eclipse Schumie's records, Alonso is worth 0.6 over other drivers etc.
And then the specific examples you use Dunc....

Kubica is WDC material in the right team/car - he was in WDC contention in 2008 quite well into the season and BMW were building their title aspirations for 09 around him. He is serious talent but of course there are some other very good race drivers ahead of him like Hamilton and Alonso. I see his reputation as being fairly deserved.

Rosberg - what do we know? He instantly looked at ease in an F1 car in his first GP setting fastest lap after fastest lap. He hasn't quite been able to recreate that again but who has at Williams. People talk about Webber (both drivers flailing around in the back half!) thrashing him but Williams were pretty keen to hold him and Brawn was pretty keen to sign him for 2010. So YOU know better from watching the little screen than Ross Brawn? Give me a break! It is too early to place Rosberg in the pecking order but given the ease with which he has outclassed his (admittedly mediocre) teammates, he is surely top half of the field.
Kobayashi is a good example of how people get carried away on the basis of a strong debut. This happened with Rosberg as well but Rosberg hasn't exactly blotted his record since then, he has just been in a hopeless car/team.

The hyping also extends the other way - exaggeration of how bad some driver is. Using Rosberg again, there are those saying he is error prone especially when in a good position. Well that appears to use one example in a season - Singapore - to make a point. I think people need to back off a bit and watch how a driver develops or doesn't. And the same for teams. According to the Alonso fans McLaren were going to drop off the map after "Ron cheated Fernando" in 2007! Some of F1's top scribes get it wrong too. Fisichella was trumpeted as possibly the quickest guy out there until Alonso burst his bubble at Renault in 2006.

Of the drivers on the grid for 2010 I think Alguersuari is very lucky to be there but he hasn't won a lot of praise from the masses. I hope Fisi stays with his testing role at Ferrari because he is past it and we need new talent. Beware expecting instant results for the Hulk. As talented as he may be he will need time to get to the next level. Nothing wrong with Webber - I was wrong about him all those years ago being a journeyman. You have to be prepared to change your mind sometimes.

#43 cheapracer

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 03:13

. So YOU know better from watching the little screen than Ross Brawn? Give me a break!


Which leg?

We have the advantage actually of being able to watch all drivers while Brawn constantly concentrates on 2 (or 1 according to some!).

What is it that you think Brawn does at a race track?

Anyway and fitting into the OP's theme, I think Rosberg is a good example of a driver being overpraised and 2010 will verify exactly where he stands in the scheme of things.


#44 stonebutter

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 03:18

They get overpraised by the media to keep the sport interesting. Nobody is going to watch if every young guy coming into the sport is just considered "meh".

#45 Muz Bee

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 04:38

Which leg?

We have the advantage actually of being able to watch all drivers while Brawn constantly concentrates on 2 (or 1 according to some!).

What is it that you think Brawn does at a race track?

Anyway and fitting into the OP's theme, I think Rosberg is a good example of a driver being overpraised and 2010 will verify exactly where he stands in the scheme of things.

:confused:
Maybe you should offer your services as a personnel consultant to any one of the teams because you are so able to openly and unbiasedly assess all of the drivers. All of this presumably in 768 x 576? We can all have an opinion, you are welcome to your often expressed views that Rosberg is rubbish. I will maintain my often expressed view that the jury is still out on Rosberg but he looks pretty good for the future with a good team. :) I will also give credit to Brawn for being able to pick the right people for his team. Time will make a monkey out of all of us sooner or later.



#46 cheapracer

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 05:40

You are welcome to your often expressed views that Rosberg is rubbish. )

I will also give credit to Brawn for being able to pick the right people for his team. Time will make a monkey out of all of us sooner or later.


Thank you, Rosberg is rubbish - please bookmark this and we will chat in about 6 months time.

If the team managers were so constantly astute at picking their drivers then about half of this forum and members would dissapear :lol:


#47 slideways

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:29

He's certainly not rubbish, I think he's a journeyman type who could well land in the right team like Button did.

#48 cheapracer

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:30

He's certainly not rubbish, I think he's a journeyman type who could well land in the right team like Button did.


Bookmark it - speak to you in 6 months time.


#49 Raincoat

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:32

For me the 2 most overrated drivers so far had been Kimi and Vettel.

#50 cheapracer

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:36

For me the 2 most overrated drivers so far had been Kimi and Vettel.


Not sure about Kimi, he did well to take it to MS in the Mac and he does have a WDC under his belt.

Vettle has the speed, he will do well if and when he matures himself. As with Hamilton, I think they will learn a bit of on-track stuff from MS next year and I mean that with respect to their current talents. Prost although a WDC learnt a bit from the slower Lauda during their time together for example.