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How do you rate Felipe Massa against his WDC teammates?


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Poll: elipe Massa:"I have always had extraordinary teammates" - how do you rate Felipe against his WDC teammates? (150 member(s) have cast votes)

Where would you place Felipe amongst his champion teammates?

  1. Better than Kimi and Jacques, but worse than Michael and Alonso? (35 votes [23.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.33%

  2. Better than Fernando, Kimi and Jacques, but worse than Michael? (22 votes [14.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.67%

  3. Better than Jacques, but worse than Kimi, Fernando and Michael? (45 votes [30.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.00%

  4. Better than Kimi, but worse than Jacques, Fernando and Michael? (2 votes [1.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.33%

  5. Better than Fernando, but worse than Kimi, Jacques and Michael? (5 votes [3.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.33%

  6. Better even than Michael, but team strategy and team politics never allowed him to show it? (3 votes [2.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.00%

  7. Worse than all the four WDC teammates he had? (31 votes [20.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.67%

  8. None of the above! (Explain...) (7 votes [4.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.67%

Will he be another Stirling Moss, never winning a championship but being one of the greats?

  1. No, Felipe will still win a WDC! (33 votes [22.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.00%

  2. Yes, Felipe will be a second Stirling Moss! (22 votes [14.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.67%

  3. No, Sir Stirling will never be equalled! (34 votes [22.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.67%

  4. You cannot compare drivers from different eras! (61 votes [40.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.67%

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#1 aditya-now

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 13:34

Felipe Massa:"I have always had extraordinary teammates"...

It will be an interesting read when the time comes for Felipe Massa to write his memoirs: his teammates include 11 WDC´s - Schumacher´s 7 WDCs, Alonso´s 2 WDCs, Raikkonen´s 1 WDC and Villeneuve´s 1 WDC, with Nick Heidfeld and Giancarlo Fisichella having been his more "ordinary" teammates.
Felipe´s must have interesting insights into the personalities of Villeneuve, Schumacher, Raikkonen and Alonso...

http://www.crash.net...tm_campaign=rss

He is evidently the driver who had the most WDC teammates in history and he did not fare too bad against any of them. The judgement on his performance versus Fernando Alonso is still outstanding, yet I am not sure if he really will have a chance against Fernando - after the accident... Then again, he has matured a lot, has become an absolute top notch driver (who is strangely still underrated by many) and has outperformed Kimi for more than a year before his accident. Also he has outperformed Jacques Villeneuve in 2005.

How do you rate Felipe Massa? Will he be another Stirling Moss who fought it out with the great ones without ever winning a championship for himself?

Edited by aditya-now, 16 January 2010 - 17:20.


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#2 aditya-now

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 14:04

An interesting link concerning career statistics: Felipe did beat Kimi and Jacques, but did not beat Nick, Fisi and Michael...

http://f1-facts.com/...am-mates/FMassa

#3 Galko877

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 14:08

Better than Jacques, equal to Kimi, worse than Michael - as for Fernando, we will see.

#4 Jackmancer

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 14:10

Better than Jacques, equal to Kimi, worse than Michael - as for Fernando, we will see.


Agree :up:

#5 fullthrottle

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 14:22

The fact that Jacques, Kimi, Michael and Fernando are all WDC and Felipe is not says it all, why need to compare again :yawnface:

#6 Jackmancer

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 14:27

The fact that Jacques, Kimi, Michael and Fernando are all WDC and Felipe is not says it all, why need to compare again :yawnface:


So, let's take a random mediocre WC, let's say, Mike Hawthorn, was better then Stirling Moss? Not really. A WC isn't the only thing that can prove talent.

#7 GiancarloF1

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 14:27

The fact that Jacques, Kimi, Michael and Fernando are all WDC and Felipe is not says it all, why need to compare again :yawnface:


Says what? Massa was the toughest teammate ever to Schumacher, while he was better than JV and KR. Sums up his talent pretty much.

I think he will beat Alonso this year.

#8 Andrew Hope

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 14:34

I'd say he was a bit better than Jacques and Kimi in the year/s he was their teammate, but overall, I'd rather have Jacques and Kimi on my team than two Felipe Massas.

#9 race addicted

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 14:57

I find it difficult to compare Massa and Villeneuve based on their '05-season together at Sauber. Villeneuve had huge struggles with that car and couldn't show his worth. I firmly believe Villeneuve is the more talented and has more raw speed.
Räikkönen is faster and better than Massa aswell, and Schumacher is obviously Massa's toughest team-mate. Clearly the best.
Alonso will prove better too.

#10 carbonfibre

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 15:13

I find it difficult to compare Massa and Villeneuve based on their '05-season together at Sauber. Villeneuve had huge struggles with that car and couldn't show his worth. I firmly believe Villeneuve is the more talented and has more raw speed.
Räikkönen is faster and better than Massa aswell, and Schumacher is obviously Massa's toughest team-mate. Clearly the best.
Alonso will prove better too.

Villeneuve might be highly talented but i believe he doesnt have the work ethic that Massa has displayed, which has been very similar to Michael's. Villeneuve could have archieved a whole lot more if he had made better decisions etc, still i don't rate Villeneuve even remotely in the same league as Schumacher.

As for Raikonen he didn't prove to be the better driver when he was in the same team as Massa. Sure he got his WDC but they were very evenly matched and the next year he was taking the beaten from Massa, and in 2009 things looked to go in Massa's way again. As for Schumacher he clearly had Massa in the bag, the difference in qualifying was very big all year long even when Michael carried heavier fuel loads.

And with Alonso the jury is still out, i think he will also have a hard time with Massa, the guy might not be the most talented driver ever, but i also believe Schumacher wasn't as well, still he has been improving himself ever since he came into F1, by working hard and wanting to learn.


#11 HP

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 15:22

Better than Jacques, equal to Kimi, worse than Michael - as for Fernando, we will see.

+1

#12 race addicted

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 15:42

Villeneuve might be highly talented but i believe he doesnt have the work ethic that Massa has displayed, which has been very similar to Michael's. Villeneuve could have archieved a whole lot more if he had made better decisions etc, still i don't rate Villeneuve even remotely in the same league as Schumacher.

As for Raikonen he didn't prove to be the better driver when he was in the same team as Massa. Sure he got his WDC but they were very evenly matched and the next year he was taking the beaten from Massa, and in 2009 things looked to go in Massa's way again. As for Schumacher he clearly had Massa in the bag, the difference in qualifying was very big all year long even when Michael carried heavier fuel loads.

And with Alonso the jury is still out, i think he will also have a hard time with Massa, the guy might not be the most talented driver ever, but i also believe Schumacher wasn't as well, still he has been improving himself ever since he came into F1, by working hard and wanting to learn.


No-one shares or shared Schumacher's work ethic, and while I never saw Villeneuve as someone who didn't care or was lazy, I got the impression he applied himself very well especially with Pollock at B.A.R.

I think Räikkönen is better than Massa. Better and faster. I rarely got the impression I saw him drive the Ferrari's as he did the McLaren's. Just a handful of times each season, but I can think of so many wow-moments from his McLaren days. As you can expect I would say, I think he couldn't extract his own full potential - not really getting his head round the B-stones (I suppose you read the Autosport-article on that?) and there was also some set-up problems. As I've written before, I blame both parties for that, Ferrari aswell as Räikkönen.

I worked out the qualifying diffs in '05 and '06, and yes indeed, Schumacher had a good advantage on Massa. I believe it was three-four tenths fuel corrected in '06.

What's clear is that Massa is very, very good, and fiercly quick. Alonso wont wipe the floor with him, no-one can, but I feel absolutely sure he'll be the better of the two. The important quality that you brought up; work ethic will play a part once again, 'cause Alonso is closer to Schumacher there I think, than Massa is.

Edited by race addicted, 16 January 2010 - 15:43.


#13 aditya-now

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 16:02

I worked out the qualifying diffs in '05 and '06, and yes indeed, Schumacher had a good advantage on Massa. I believe it was three-four tenths fuel corrected in '06.


Amazingly, Massa was only Schumi´s teammate for one single season, 2006. Somehow I had the impression he had been for a few years, even if not as long as Barrichello.

Concerning the topic at hand, it is rather amazing how Felipe handled to be supposed #2 to all these champions, and usually worked his way up. Work ethics is a good term indeed.
In that sense the Felipe versus Fernando comparison will be truly interesting and I do hope that Massa's accident has no after effects whatsoever...

#14 cardin

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 16:56

No-one shares or shared Schumacher's work ethic, and while I never saw Villeneuve as someone who didn't care or was lazy, I got the impression he applied himself very well especially with Pollock at B.A.R.

I think Räikkönen is better than Massa. Better and faster. I rarely got the impression I saw him drive the Ferrari's as he did the McLaren's. Just a handful of times each season, but I can think of so many wow-moments from his McLaren days. As you can expect I would say, I think he couldn't extract his own full potential - not really getting his head round the B-stones (I suppose you read the Autosport-article on that?) and there was also some set-up problems. As I've written before, I blame both parties for that, Ferrari aswell as Räikkönen.

I worked out the qualifying diffs in '05 and '06, and yes indeed, Schumacher had a good advantage on Massa. I believe it was three-four tenths fuel corrected in '06.

What's clear is that Massa is very, very good, and fiercly quick. Alonso wont wipe the floor with him, no-one can, but I feel absolutely sure he'll be the better of the two. The important quality that you brought up; work ethic will play a part once again, 'cause Alonso is closer to Schumacher there I think, than Massa is.


2005??? Really???


#15 Trust

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 17:05

No-one shares or shared Schumacher's work ethic, and while I never saw Villeneuve as someone who didn't care or was lazy, I got the impression he applied himself very well especially with Pollock at B.A.R.

I think Räikkönen is better than Massa. Better and faster. I rarely got the impression I saw him drive the Ferrari's as he did the McLaren's. Just a handful of times each season, but I can think of so many wow-moments from his McLaren days. As you can expect I would say, I think he couldn't extract his own full potential - not really getting his head round the B-stones (I suppose you read the Autosport-article on that?) and there was also some set-up problems. As I've written before, I blame both parties for that, Ferrari aswell as Räikkönen.

I worked out the qualifying diffs in '05 and '06, and yes indeed, Schumacher had a good advantage on Massa. I believe it was three-four tenths fuel corrected in '06.

What's clear is that Massa is very, very good, and fiercly quick. Alonso wont wipe the floor with him, no-one can, but I feel absolutely sure he'll be the better of the two. The important quality that you brought up; work ethic will play a part once again, 'cause Alonso is closer to Schumacher there I think, than Massa is.

Me, As a man who respects him(Kimi) a lot, disagree here. I didn't see that performance from McLaren days neither from 2007&2008(I don't say it's his fault). Only in the second half on 2009 season he was there on pace. But shame, Massa was injured.... soo... There were some performances, but not often, unfortunately.

Anyway, Alonso will prove this year that Massa ain't top driver. :wave:

#16 molive

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 17:14

Better than Jacques, equal to Kimi, worse than Michael - as for Fernando, we will see.


Yes, worse than MS, but I believe Massa was "catching-up" fast and starting to match/better Shummy at the end of their period together. Who knows how MS will drive in 2010, but if Massa has evolved even further (and believe he has) he will be a tough cookie for multiple WDCs Alonso and MS this year too.

This is shaping up to be a killer of a season, I hope politics doesn't interfere with the show, and let the best man win! :clap:

#17 carbonfibre

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 17:17

No-one shares or shared Schumacher's work ethic, and while I never saw Villeneuve as someone who didn't care or was lazy, I got the impression he applied himself very well especially with Pollock at B.A.R.

I think Räikkönen is better than Massa. Better and faster. I rarely got the impression I saw him drive the Ferrari's as he did the McLaren's. Just a handful of times each season, but I can think of so many wow-moments from his McLaren days. As you can expect I would say, I think he couldn't extract his own full potential - not really getting his head round the B-stones (I suppose you read the Autosport-article on that?) and there was also some set-up problems. As I've written before, I blame both parties for that, Ferrari aswell as Räikkönen.

I worked out the qualifying diffs in '05 and '06, and yes indeed, Schumacher had a good advantage on Massa. I believe it was three-four tenths fuel corrected in '06.

What's clear is that Massa is very, very good, and fiercly quick. Alonso wont wipe the floor with him, no-one can, but I feel absolutely sure he'll be the better of the two. The important quality that you brought up; work ethic will play a part once again, 'cause Alonso is closer to Schumacher there I think, than Massa is.

The question why Raikonen never showed the great stuff at Ferrari which he displayed can also be that maybe the McLaren really enabled him to do it, maybe the Mclaren really was the best car around but Raikonen didn't extract the most of it.

I also think Raikonen and ferrari indeed didn't match as good as they would have liked, more due to Kimi's lack of input. And sure Schumacher is still unmatched in his work ethic but i firmly believe Massa does his best to get there, he gives 100% every single day during the season.

btw: i believe the quali gap on average was 0.5 sec in 2006, there was an article on schumacher on the frontpage which stated this, but i can't find it do quick. edit: here it is from mark hughes:

In the 54 qualifying sessions of the 2006 season, Massa was genuinely quicker than Schumacher only once - in Q2 at Monza, by 0.128s.

Michael's average advantage over Massa in those 54 sessions was in excess of half a second. That’s a staggering degree of superiority over a driver we now know is very fast indeed, stats that Kimi Raikkonen would kill for, stats that will almost certainly not be matched next year by Fernando Alonso. There is no evidence whatsoever that Michael's pace was falling off in his final season.


Edited by carbonfibre, 16 January 2010 - 17:20.


#18 Xaus

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 17:17

The fact that Jacques, Kimi, Michael and Fernando are all WDC and Felipe is not says it all, why need to compare again :yawnface:

Yay for thick people who only see statistics in the shallowest form and not the story behind the stats. :rolleyes:

#19 fullthrottle

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 17:42

Yay for thick people who only see statistics in the shallowest form and not the story behind the stats. :rolleyes:


We are looking at these 4 particular drivers, not just any WDC in general. In my mind there is no doubt they're all better than Massa if you look at the talent and overall achievement over the years. People always like to say what if this, what if that... but at the end of the day these WDC didn't win by chance, I have tremendous respect for what they have achieved. Call it shallow or not, if Massa can prove that he can win WDC one day then I'll raise my hat for him.


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#20 Anssi

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 17:57

Kimi is better. Massa has a long way to go and do until we can say he has shown more talent and results to put him ahead of Kimi.

In my opinion Alonso is better than Felipe as well. I see Alonso and Kimi extremely close to each other and I can't really put them into an order.

Of these 3 in my opinion Felipe is in fact even quite clearly the weakest one. He has a chance to improve and to prove us he is as good or better.

#21 carbonfibre

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:13

We are looking at these 4 particular drivers, not just any WDC in general. In my mind there is no doubt they're all better than Massa if you look at the talent and overall achievement over the years. People always like to say what if this, what if that... but at the end of the day these WDC didn't win by chance, I have tremendous respect for what they have achieved. Call it shallow or not, if Massa can prove that he can win WDC one day then I'll raise my hat for him.

He already proved he can win a WDC, he did so in 2008. If the track had one corner less he would have been WDC.


#22 ivanalesi

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:20

It's not fair to compare them, because Felipe had only Kimi for a long period of time and during his prime, it's hard to quantify. I think JV was his easiest teammate, but it was more down to his attitude. Obviously Michael was his toughest opponent and while Felipe managed to be close to him on a number of occasions, he managed to beat Michael truly like 2-3 times and never convincingly... with all the others it was a much more interesting battle.

The fact that Jacques, Kimi, Michael and Fernando are all WDC and Felipe is not says it all, why need to compare again :yawnface:


Right, Jacques Villeneuve is WDC and Gilles Villeneuve is not. Do you really think Jacques is anywhere, I mean like miles, close to Gilles?

#23 Anssi

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:23

Oh yes. Championships are lost or won in one corner only :lol:

A Championship which starts in March and ends in November, having 18 races in total, and the result of the Championship is decided in one corner in the final race. How much sense does that make. No sense does it make. But yet every year I see many many comments implying it makes a lot of sense, even from the racers themselves. Even the Ferrari Chairman said that Felipe was a World Champion for some seconds (before the race had ended he was supposedly already granted the title if we are to believe the Ferrari boss). My faith in the human society reduces every day the more I see.

It makes no sense to claim Felipe already proved he can win a WDC. He has not proved he can win it until he has won it. Stop that non-sense already :cat:

Edited by Anssi, 16 January 2010 - 18:27.


#24 noikeee

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:26

I am still a bit undecided on exactly how to rate Massa, and will reformulate my opinion after watching race versus Alonso a couple times.

The big question is, was the last 3 years at Ferrari the result of Kimi underperforming, or of Massa having become stronger? It was surely a bit of both, but was it more the later or the former?

It's also worth remembering he did beat JV and looked more convincing against JV than Heidfeld the following year, for example. So clearly, Massa was already a very strong driver by 2005. Then again, was JV by 2005 anywhere near the performance that got him a world championship?

An easy cop out from all of this is claiming that Massa and Kimi are pretty much the same level, with Schumacher being 3/4/5 tenths quicker, and JV 1 or 2 tenths slower... but I'm afraid it's not anywhere near that simple. Bring Fisi vs Kimi at Ferrari, and Fisi vs Massa at Sauber into the equation, and you'll get an headache. The eternal problem with cross-team-mate comparisons...

Edited by paranoik0, 16 January 2010 - 18:27.


#25 fullthrottle

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:28

He already proved he can win a WDC, he did so in 2008. If the track had one corner less he would have been WDC.


If...would have.... again :lol:


#26 Anssi

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:32

It doesn't really work like that. You will only get your head into a knot if you do that sort of comparisons.

As far as I know Felipe has been pretty fast the whole time he has been in F1. He's not one of the slow drivers and has never been in F1. The thing for me which makes me put him lower than say Kimi and Fernando is that first of all the amazing performances simply are not there when we look at their F1 careers. Both Kimi and Alonso have presented several stunning performances during their F1 careers. I am still waiting for Felipe to do the same even once.

The another thing is that Felipe easily seems to lose his cool. I mean if he has some problem in a race then you can reasonably expect him to have several other problems in the following laps. I've seen this happen many times. So when there is a mistake then perhaps he has some sort of a panic attack or something.

Also looking and listening to him I can see a problem with his self-confidence. He just doesn't seem to have the same rock-solid confidence in his abilities than what Kimi and Alonso have in theirs. This is in my opinion obvious when you look at what they have been doing and saying. Maybe he has an inferiority complex which makes him give out the silly statements talking big of himself and talking others down. To me that is a sign of a flaw in his character and I think it stems from a lack of self-confidence.

Edited by Anssi, 16 January 2010 - 18:37.


#27 SPBHM

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:36

Massa lost a championship by 1 point, so in my view he proved that he can do it.
even more if you analyze all the races and see how the drivers lost possible points.

as for the comparison, well he beat JV, beat Raikkonen in 08... so he is a very strong driver, fighting for the WDC until the last race in 08 and beating WDC teammates in multiple occasions, about Alonso I don't know... we will need to wait!



#28 Anssi

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:41

OK - so if I lose a Championship I have proven I can win it? :rotfl:


I'm definitely not trying to be mean here but that logic is seriously flawed. The fact that Felipe lost it does in no way prove that he can win it.

#29 race addicted

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:51

The question why Raikonen never showed the great stuff at Ferrari which he displayed can also be that maybe the McLaren really enabled him to do it, maybe the Mclaren really was the best car around but Raikonen didn't extract the most of it.

I also think Raikonen and ferrari indeed didn't match as good as they would have liked, more due to Kimi's lack of input. And sure Schumacher is still unmatched in his work ethic but i firmly believe Massa does his best to get there, he gives 100% every single day during the season.

btw: i believe the quali gap on average was 0.5 sec in 2006, there was an article on schumacher on the frontpage which stated this, but i can't find it do quick. edit: here it is from mark hughes:


I'm in no doubt about what Räikkönen extracted from the McLaren's he raced, and that was the maximum IMO. What denied him one or two titles there, was reliability.
Umm, the comparison Hughes looked at there surprised me a little. Not the result, but that he was willing to look at it like that. I mean, he's obviously taken Q1 into account, and in 2006 that session was just a formality for Ferrari. In addition he's looked at Q3 without fuel correcting the times. Don't get me wrong, the result would still be the same; (big-ish) advantage Schumacher.
I actually lend more credence to my own results from the thread qualifying comparisons 2006 or whatever the title was. (I couldn't figure out how to find my own threads, so I can't link to it!) I think the difference was four tenths plus in Q3, and four tenths flat in Q2, if memory serves. The impression universally seems to be that Massa has been Schumacher's hardest team-mate, but judging from qualifying performance Barrichello was closer, atleast in his best season.

EDIT- Tada! Found it: http://forums.autosp...w...c=90987&hl=

Edited by race addicted, 16 January 2010 - 18:55.


#30 SPBHM

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:52

OK - so if I lose a Championship I have proven I can win it? :rotfl:


I'm definitely not trying to be mean here but that logic is seriously flawed. The fact that Felipe lost it does in no way prove that he can win it.


I'm not talking only just about "lose or win", I'm talking about the whole 08 season and how I saw things, so in my opinion 08 proved that Massa can win, because of the small difference at the end and the issues that he had...


#31 race addicted

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:52

2005??? Really???


Are you trying to be a smartass? I didn't mean to say that they were team-mates in '05, just that I started a thread on qualifying differentials after that season as well.

I'm not talking only just about "lose or win", I'm talking about the whole 08 season and how I saw things, so in my opinion 08 proved that Massa can win, because of the small difference at the end and the issues that he had...


I agree, he definately showed that he's WDC capable.

Edited by race addicted, 16 January 2010 - 18:53.


#32 carbonfibre

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:56

I'm in no doubt about what Räikkönen extracted from the McLaren's he raced, and that was the maximum IMO. What denied him one or two titles there, was reliability.
Umm, the comparison Hughes looked at there surprised me a little. Not the result, but that he was willing to look at it like that. I mean, he's obviously taken Q1 into account, and in 2006 that session was just a formality for Ferrari. In addition he's looked at Q3 without fuel correcting the times. Don't get me wrong, the result would still be the same; (big-ish) advantage Schumacher.
I actually lend more credence to my own results from the thread qualifying comparisons 2006 or whatever the title was. (I couldn't figure out how to find my own threads, so I can't link to it!) I think the difference was four tenths plus in Q3, and four tenths flat in Q2, if memory serves. The impression universally seems to be that Massa has been Schumacher's hardest team-mate, but judging from qualifying performance Barrichello was closer, atleast in his best season.

EDIT- Tada! Found it: http://forums.autosp...w...c=90987&hl=

Ah thanks will check it out! :)

#33 Simon Says

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:57

I really think Massa is being flattered because of Kimi. Heidfeld and Fisi beat him and he wasn't much better than Villeneuve from what I remember. Either Kimi is overated or the car of Ferrari simply didn't suit him.

But we'll see in 2010. I'm putting my money on Alonso imo.

edit: Massa > Villeneuve, equal to Kimi ( in a Ferrari ) and worse than MS and possilby Alonso.

Edited by Simon Says, 16 January 2010 - 18:58.


#34 salamin

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 18:59

schu > alonso > massa > villneuve

#35 FlashMaster

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 19:24

schu > alonso > massa > villneuve


+1

#36 Zeroninety

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 19:42

If Massa never wins a WDC, well, not sure I could call him another Moss. Another Reutemann, absolutely--one of the better drivers of his era (if not the best), and would be a worthy champion.

#37 Trust

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 20:27

Massa is good driver. Top? Don't think so. Why he outperformed Kimi, or why Kimi didn't get to use his all potential I won't discuss. Because we'll then enter in big worthless discussions again. In my opinion, last three years made Massa good just because of Kimi, nothing else.

And I expect Alonso to show his speed and consistency and beat Massa, proving that he(Massa) doesn't belong to top drivers group. Not from the beginning, because it will take some time for Alonso to get known with team etc.

Also one more thing, Massa's 95 percent of victories came from pole. And when he win something from behind like 4th or 5th position, or some remarkable performances, he'll grow on my scale.
Till then...

#38 Viktor

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 20:44

I have been a Massa fan since 2002 and think he is a very good driver, but I have a hard time saying that he is on the level of Schumacher and Alonso or even Kimi (don't get me wrong here, Kimi is super good but just not on the same level as Schumacher and Alonso). But I think he is a better driver then Villeneuve and the others. Nothing extra special but a very strong driver.

/Viktor

#39 cardin

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 20:47

An interesting link concerning career statistics: Felipe did beat Kimi and Jacques, but did not beat Nick, Fisi and Michael...

http://f1-facts.com/...am-mates/FMassa


Interesting. I haven't realized how much better, for Massa, the numbers look in comparison to Kimi in the three years they were together at Ferrari.

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#40 cardin

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 20:50

Are you trying to be a smartass? I didn't mean to say that they were team-mates in '05, just that I started a thread on qualifying differentials after that season as well.

Well, you should write what you mean then.

#41 cardin

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:00

Me, As a man who respects him(Kimi) a lot, disagree here. I didn't see that performance from McLaren days neither from 2007&2008(I don't say it's his fault). Only in the second half on 2009 season he was there on pace. But shame, Massa was injured.... soo... There were some performances, but not often, unfortunately.

Anyway, Alonso will prove this year that Massa ain't top driver. :wave:


...Carthago delenda est

#42 WheelBanger304

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:04

It doesn't really work like that. You will only get your head into a knot if you do that sort of comparisons.

As far as I know Felipe has been pretty fast the whole time he has been in F1. He's not one of the slow drivers and has never been in F1. The thing for me which makes me put him lower than say Kimi and Fernando is that first of all the amazing performances simply are not there when we look at their F1 careers. Both Kimi and Alonso have presented several stunning performances during their F1 careers. I am still waiting for Felipe to do the same even once.

The another thing is that Felipe easily seems to lose his cool. I mean if he has some problem in a race then you can reasonably expect him to have several other problems in the following laps. I've seen this happen many times. So when there is a mistake then perhaps he has some sort of a panic attack or something.

Also looking and listening to him I can see a problem with his self-confidence. He just doesn't seem to have the same rock-solid confidence in his abilities than what Kimi and Alonso have in theirs. This is in my opinion obvious when you look at what they have been doing and saying. Maybe he has an inferiority complex which makes him give out the silly statements talking big of himself and talking others down. To me that is a sign of a flaw in his character and I think it stems from a lack of self-confidence.


Funnily enough I agree with your analysis of Massa's character. But what does it say about Kimi? Soundly beaten in 2008 and comfortably being outscored in 2009 - until the unfortunate accident - by a driver who is known to be half a second a lap slower than Schumacher and whose self-confidence is very fragile. Massa was marginally better than Kimi in their time together, significantly better than Villeneuve, and significantly worse than Schumacher. As for Alonso, let's wait and see.

#43 Atreiu

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:09

Massa followed a distinct learning curve which was abrupt interupted last season, let's see where he picks up. It's just as hard to compare the 2008 Massa the his 2005 one, just as it is to compare the 2005 Villeneuve to the one from his rookie (and best) season. In then end people just stick with their opinions no matter how they came to them and we'll neve come to terms with this discussion.

I don't see Massa as talented as Kimi, but he definitely made up for it with work ethics and determination. That's gotta be worth something.

All in all, instead of splitting hairs, I'd rather go with him being one of the best of this past decade, who definitely learned through his mistakes and learned how to get a team behind him and take the leading role. That may not have translated into a WDC yet, but it's much more than the vast majority ever becomes capable of. And it's also why we shouldn't underestimate him before Alonso. Just let it happen and time will tell who's who.



#44 senna da silva

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:11

I would say Massa has been equal to all of the WDCs. I suspect this year will be no different.

#45 race addicted

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:15

To Schumacher even?? He just wasn't!

#46 Bouncing Pink Ball

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:16

IIRC, Massa's problem, when he was just starting his F1 career, wasn't slowness but erratic, occasionally dumb driving. His testing stint at Ferrari seemed to have done him some good, getting him into the habit of driving calmly rather than throwing the car around (and off the track at times) as often. He also, I feel, was well done by having a season as a defacto #2 with Schumacher, easing the pressure on him a bit. I guess what I'm getting at, in a roundabout way, is that I don't think Massa has improved or sped up but simply learned how to keep his over-exuberance in check (most of the time).

But is he better than every WDC he's been paired with thus far? I'd say no, mainly because, while he's very quick when he's comfortable, he still isn't 'complete', to use the common term. Massa, and I do consider him one of the better ones on the grid, just isn't quite a superstar driver, one of those folks destined for legendhood. At least I doubt it. A nice guy, a speedy guy, as good a team player as you're apt to find in a professional athlete out for his own rewards, a driver I'd look seriously at hiring were I a team owner, but, IMO, his biggest weakness is a tendency to panic. Unless his whole personality were to change I can't see that obstacle disappearing.

As to how he'll fare against his new teammate; that I can't predict well at all since, I think, he might be quicker overall than Alonso but I've seen no indication that he's got Alonso covered with regards to consistency. If I had to make a call, I'd give the season-long performance win to Alonso, but anything could happen.



#47 WheelBanger304

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:17

OK - so if I lose a Championship I have proven I can win it? :rotfl:


I'm definitely not trying to be mean here but that logic is seriously flawed. The fact that Felipe lost it does in no way prove that he can win it.


So Kimi only proved he can win it when McLaren gifted him the wdc in 2007? Strange. I seem to remember Kimi's fans strenuously making the opposite case after their man failed to win the title in 2005.

#48 senna da silva

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:17

To Schumacher even?? He just wasn't!


By the end of the year and when Michael wasn't being given any further preferential treatment they were equal.

#49 farsailor

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:21

I believe Villeneuve is the biggest raw talent. (say what you say) For that to show he needs a car that suits his uniqe style of driving and he suffered from grooved tires electronics and less mechancal grip etc. F1 wise Massa beat him, but I still consider Villeneuve a better driver. (when he gets his car right he can beat who ever) I think Massa has fared good against his team mates. Then again, didn't Heidfeld beat kimi in sauber? And Hill Villeneuve? I still rate Kimi higher than Nick and Jacques higher than Damon. And based on that from what I get F1 wise on Massas performance against his team mates..:

1, Schumacher
2, Kimi
3, Massa
4, Villeneuve

I don't rate Alonso yet but i think he'll be all over Massa.

Skill wise I'd put Schumacher, Villeneuve and Alonso above Kimi and Massa.


#50 race addicted

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 21:25

By the end of the year and when Michael wasn't being given any further preferential treatment they were equal.


Hmm. You might be onto something saying it like that. He did have an extraordinary second half or last third of 2006.