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#1 Hyde

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 13:03

If only Greg Mansell had been allowed to have broken free from the comfort, wealth and control of his father's regime he could have made F1 on merit. Now he is forever consigned to further massage Nigel's hugely oversized ego.

What a crying shame.

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#2 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 13:06

Is there a news story to which your post relates?

#3 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 13:13

Without all that comfort, wealth, and control I doubt he'd have been in Formula BMW. He certainly wouldn't have been promoted prematurely into F3, and then on to Atlantics, World Series, etc, et al.

He'd be a bulletin board member if he was lucky.

#4 Clatter

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 13:15

Without all that comfort, wealth, and control I doubt he'd have been in Formula BMW. He certainly wouldn't have been promoted prematurely into F3, and then on to Atlantics, World Series, etc, et al.

He'd be a bulletin board member if he was lucky.


:up: :up: Totally agree. The Mansell boys are not a patch on their father.

#5 potmotr

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 13:18

Without all that comfort, wealth, and control I doubt he'd have been in Formula BMW. He certainly wouldn't have been promoted prematurely into F3, and then on to Atlantics, World Series, etc, et al.

He'd be a bulletin board member if he was lucky.


Strange that Our Nige never put his boys through karting as youngsters.

They'd have stood a much greater chance of success that way I'd have though.

But man, don't those lads sound like their old man.

I wonder if they took part in Movember?

#6 potmotr

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 13:22

:up: :up: Totally agree. The Mansell boys are not a patch on their father.


Strange how some kids do so badly despite decent backing (I'm looking at your Nicolas Prost, Mathias Lauda and Vanina Icyx) and others do much better (Nico Rosberg, Kazuki Nakajima, Nelson Piquet Jnr*).

I think it's all down to the age they start at.

*I know, Nakajima and Piquet aren't topliners, but they still had the talent to make F1.

#7 Clatter

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 13:42

Strange how some kids do so badly despite decent backing (I'm looking at your Nicolas Prost, Mathias Lauda and Vanina Icyx) and others do much better (Nico Rosberg, Kazuki Nakajima, Nelson Piquet Jnr*).

I think it's all down to the age they start at.

*I know, Nakajima and Piquet aren't topliners, but they still had the talent to make F1.


Starting early certainly helps, but you still won't make it without the basic talent. Training can only take you so far.

#8 potmotr

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 13:49

Starting early certainly helps, but you still won't make it without the basic talent. Training can only take you so far.


I've always felt the Mansells suffered from being shunted around lots of different categories.

They never seem to stick at anything for too long.

First it was racing in Europe, then the States, the European sportscars.

Who funds them out of interest? I saw Greg Mansell in action at Monaco in WSR and he was racing a car sponsored by Sunseeker, who supported Our Nige too.



#9 Peat

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 13:59

Yep, Greg would have made it to F1. If he was anywhere near good-enough.......

I see all 3 Mansell's are entering a Ginetta Zytek LMP1 at Le Mans this year, will be pretty cool!

#10 alfista

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 14:03

I think it's all down to the age they start at.


I think it's all down to all people being different. If daddy was quick it doesn't mean kids are the same. Plus in the beginning they have easy life due to their name and they may have impression that everything will come that easy and that can spoil even real talents. Maybe it's the case with Mansell boys?


#11 potmotr

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 14:11

From what I've read Our Nige was keen on helping his sons to a career in professional sport from quite early on.

He was a great friend of Greg Norman so Leo and Greg played golf from a young age.

I think it was only when they become teenagers that they got bored of the clubs and started to get interested in their old man's profession.

#12 Hyde

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 14:21

I've always felt the Mansells suffered from being shunted around lots of different categories.

They never seem to stick at anything for too long.

First it was racing in Europe, then the States, the European sportscars.

Who funds them out of interest? I saw Greg Mansell in action at Monaco in WSR and he was racing a car sponsored by Sunseeker, who supported Our Nige too.


You have to realise that Mansell is still very marketable. Sunseeker have been around him for years and must see value in the association. He has retained his following in the States and Italy - they love him to bits. He is also hugely wealthy in his own right, never could quite see how he accumulated so much through racing and golf but very good luck to him none the less.

Given that Greg had no real kart experience and did not race until he was nearly twenty, I agree that "shunting" him around through all those different race series was just what he didn't need. Dare I say that it is almost as though Nigel wants him to race but never have a chance to outshine his Dad?

#13 potmotr

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 14:26

You have to realise that Mansell is still very marketable.


Dude, you're preaching to the converted here.

Nigel Mansell is the reason I started watching Formula One.

Sure, he liked a moan, but don't we all?

But in the car he was total fever!

#14 Rob

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 14:26

I've always felt the Mansells suffered from being shunted around lots of different categories.


Agreed. They needed to stick with Formula BMW a bit longer but I think the temptation to move up proved too much.

#15 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 14:33

If only Greg Mansell had been allowed to have broken free from the comfort, wealth and control of his father's regime he could have made F1 on merit. Now he is forever consigned to further massage Nigel's hugely oversized ego.

What a crying shame.


That looks more like a facebook status than the start of a topic...

#16 potmotr

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 14:34

Agreed. They needed to stick with Formula BMW a bit longer but I think the temptation to move up proved too much.


I reckon Our Nige became so good because he basically had low self esteem.

He felt everyone looked down on him, didn't rate him at all.

He had a burning desire to prove them all wrong.

Equally he had to fight for every penny he had.

Perhaps if his lads had things less comfortable they'd have done a bit better.

#17 marcm

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 14:41

If only Greg Mansell had been allowed to have broken free from the comfort, wealth and control of his father's regime he could have made F1 on merit. Now he is forever consigned to further massage Nigel's hugely oversized ego.

What a crying shame.


Why a crying shame? Greg never showed any exceptional talent in Formula BMW etc. In fact he was generally closer to the back than the front. If he had an exceptional talent I am sure he would have made it - we know from experience that having a famous father certainly makes it a LOT easier to make it in motorsport. Don't get me wrong either - I'm certain Greg does have plenty of talent in a racing car, but F1 surely is about exceptional talent.

Hyde mentions that he didn't have any kart experience worth mentioning before he raced the single seaters - but then again nor do most people! I'm quite sure though that he did have plenty of time in cars or karts before hand .. after all his father is Nigel Mansell and does own a kart circuit! He certainly will have had more opportunity than say someone like Takuma Sata who never raced a kart or car until he was 19.

I've never met Greg, but hopefully he isn't bitter about not making it to F1 etc, but instead is extremely happy and grateful for all the amazing racing opportunities he does have :) Plenty of us give an arm and a leg for the chance to race around the world and at le mans.


#18 potmotr

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 15:08

Hyde mentions that he didn't have any kart experience worth mentioning before he raced the single seaters - but then again nor do most people!


On the contrary, many youngsters kart at an almost professional level from the age of 6 or 7.

By the time they step into cars aged 16 their feeling for racing on four wheels is totally second nature.

I think Sato is an exception to the rule, as are other late starters like Damon Hill, Robert Doornbos and Tiago Monteriro.

#19 ensign14

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 15:18

*I know, Nakajima and Piquet aren't topliners, but they still had the talent to make F1.

Piquet did. Nakajima didn't. Had he been born Bert Snudge in Basingstoke he wouldn't have made Formula Student. Name and nationality got him a drive that he did eff all with. The AJ Foyt IV of F1.

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#20 ZenSpeed

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 15:38

Without all that comfort, wealth, and control I doubt he'd have been in Formula BMW. He certainly wouldn't have been promoted prematurely into F3, and then on to Atlantics, World Series, etc, et al.

He'd be a bulletin board member if he was lucky.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#21 ZenSpeed

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 15:40

Strange how some kids do so badly despite decent backing (I'm looking at your Nicolas Prost, Mathias Lauda and Vanina Icyx) and others do much better (Nico Rosberg, Kazuki Nakajima, Nelson Piquet Jnr*).

I think it's all down to the age they start at.

*I know, Nakajima and Piquet aren't topliners, but they still had the talent to make F1.

Could it be that despite their illustrious fathers, some are born with talent and some aren't???



#22 Rob

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 15:43

Could it be that despite their illustrious fathers, some are born with talent and some aren't???


I'd imagine it would be something to do with only inheriting 50% of their fathers' DNA.

#23 Slyder

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 15:44

Greg Mansell actually showed more talent than Leo when they were in British F3. Greg was closer to the front than ever before, even grabbing a couple of podium finishes to boot. The big mistake was that Nigel stupidly took both his sons to Atlantics, when he should've just let Greg in F3 and have him develop into a contender.

I for one believe Greg would've been a serious contender in F3 had he been allowed to stay there.

#24 Patriot

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 15:45

If only ...


...Nigel was just a bit smarter he would have been 4 times WDC


#25 Rob

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 15:48

I for one believe Greg would've been a serious contender in F3 had he been allowed to stay there.


I don't know that he'd have bern that good. He might have won a race or two perhaps. He certainly wouldn't have embarassed himself.

Continuity is what he has been deprived of, to the detriment of his career.

#26 potmotr

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 15:55

Piquet did. Nakajima didn't. Had he been born Bert Snudge in Basingstoke he wouldn't have made Formula Student. Name and nationality got him a drive that he did eff all with. The AJ Foyt IV of F1.


Nakajima was OK. Fast but wild in GP2, much like The Next Big Thing, Kamui Kobayashi.

He was also not too bad in his first season, but appeared to lose interest or motivation in the second.

#27 Rob

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 15:57

Nakajima was OK. Fast but wild in GP2, much like The Next Big Thing, Kamui Kobayashi.

He was also not too bad in his first season, but appeared to lose interest or motivation in the second.


I'm curious to see how well his brother Daisuke will go when he gets to that level. I have a hunch that Daisuke has slightly more natural talent, but I may be wrong.

#28 Lazarus II

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 15:59

Yes what a bitch to be thrown into the cut & thrust world of the Lucky Sperm Club :rotfl:

Edited by Lazarus II, 20 January 2010 - 16:01.


#29 marcm

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 16:01

On the contrary, many youngsters kart at an almost professional level from the age of 6 or 7.

By the time they step into cars aged 16 their feeling for racing on four wheels is totally second nature.

I think Sato is an exception to the rule, as are other late starters like Damon Hill, Robert Doornbos and Tiago Monteriro.


Oh I know all too well what opportunities some youngsters do get (I race karts myself).... and forget 6 or 7 ... bambino karts for 4+ are all the rage now...

... however although it may be the norm amongst those who make it to F1 it's defintiely not the norm among the rest of us who would have loved a shot at being an F1 driver.

I still stick the comment that had Greg been an exceptional talent he would have made more of an impression in the single seater series he raced in. I know of many others who with none of the backing of Greg and no karting experience, still managed to either by hard graft or a lucky break get a drive in a decent single seather series and score stronger results despite their under funded team and lack of experience.



#30 potmotr

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 16:57

Oh I know all too well what opportunities some youngsters do get (I race karts myself).... and forget 6 or 7 ... bambino karts for 4+ are all the rage now...

... however although it may be the norm amongst those who make it to F1 it's defintiely not the norm among the rest of us who would have loved a shot at being an F1 driver.


I raced karts for quite a few years too.

But I soon figured out that I was too old, too poor and (critically) too crap to ever even dream of F1.

At least I figured out the crap part before having my missus sell the house, as Mansell did.

#31 Hyde

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 18:07

):

I raced karts for quite a few years too.

But I soon figured out that I was too old, too poor and (critically) too crap to ever even dream of F1.

At least I figured out the crap part before having my missus sell the house, as Mansell did.


You have a house Potmotr ? When I was a kid I used to dream about .....................etc!

#32 noikeee

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 20:41

Piquet did. Nakajima didn't. Had he been born Bert Snudge in Basingstoke he wouldn't have made Formula Student. Name and nationality got him a drive that he did eff all with. The AJ Foyt IV of F1.


GP2 rookie of the year, with some impressive races in 2007. Sure he was rushed into F1, and then did **** all with his F1 chance despite given 2 full seasons, but at a point there was a hint of talent there.

#33 THE "driverider"

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 20:52

I can't see the Mansell name coming back to F1 anytime soon, but Josh Hill (son of Damon, grandson of Graham) didn't do karting but he has impressed over the last two years.

Edited by THE "driverider", 20 January 2010 - 20:53.


#34 potmotr

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 20:59

I can't see the Mansell name coming back to F1 anytime soon, but Josh Hill (son of Damon, grandson of Graham) didn't do karting but he has impressed over the last two years.


He's 18 or 19 isn't he?


#35 Peat

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 22:26

Yep.

Josh does do some karting. He races a few rounds with Club100 and is pretty average. When i say average, he gets simular results to me..... top 25%, alright but not setting the world alight.

Seems to be doing alright in FFord though. Much like his dad, much more affinity to a car than a kart.


#36 alfista

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 22:43

Yep.

Josh does do some karting. He races a few rounds with Club100 and is pretty average. When i say average, he gets simular results to me..... top 25%, alright but not setting the world alight.

Seems to be doing alright in FFord though. Much like his dad, much more affinity to a car than a kart.


I saw couple of FFord races last year and Josh was a midfielder there - 2 podiums and 11th overall. OK, he had 2 fastest laps also.
Josh is 19 now but considering his grandpa got driver's licence at the age of 23 and dad tried racing car in that age he is progressing well.

#37 rolf123

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 23:17

Getting into F1 has very little to do with talent.

Sure, we've seen the likes of Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and others.

Getting into F1 is 1% talent, 39% luck, 30% determination and focus to succeed (not just at driving, but at anything you put your mind to) and 30% money.

There are many drivers who made it into F1 despite a great lack of talent. Equally, there are tons of drivers just as good (if not better) than the three mentioned above who never made it into F1 or even near it due to the factors above.

Driving an F1 car is not that hard. It never was and, if anything, it's even easier today. Who was the kid who said after their first try "that it was just like a video game"? Seriously, if you practice enough on simulations like rfactor and iracing then the only difference is coping with the reality of driving, not letting your emotions and your adrenalin get the better of you, keeping calm and relaxed etc.

Yes, no sim has accurately done tyre modelling yet, but they are not far off.

Practice, practice, practice, be focussed and determined, preferably have some good money aside or good contacts to bargain with.


#38 Clatter

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 00:02

Getting into F1 has very little to do with talent.

Sure, we've seen the likes of Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and others.

Getting into F1 is 1% talent, 39% luck, 30% determination and focus to succeed (not just at driving, but at anything you put your mind to) and 30% money.

There are many drivers who made it into F1 despite a great lack of talent. Equally, there are tons of drivers just as good (if not better) than the three mentioned above who never made it into F1 or even near it due to the factors above.

Driving an F1 car is not that hard. It never was and, if anything, it's even easier today. Who was the kid who said after their first try "that it was just like a video game"? Seriously, if you practice enough on simulations like rfactor and iracing then the only difference is coping with the reality of driving, not letting your emotions and your adrenalin get the better of you, keeping calm and relaxed etc.

Yes, no sim has accurately done tyre modelling yet, but they are not far off.

Practice, practice, practice, be focussed and determined, preferably have some good money aside or good contacts to bargain with.


Driving an F1 car isn't hard, driving it fast is. Sitting at home playing with simulators will not prepare the average person for the reality.

#39 wepmob2000

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 03:09

Getting into F1 has very little to do with talent.

Sure, we've seen the likes of Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and others.

Getting into F1 is 1% talent, 39% luck, 30% determination and focus to succeed (not just at driving, but at anything you put your mind to) and 30% money.

There are many drivers who made it into F1 despite a great lack of talent. Equally, there are tons of drivers just as good (if not better) than the three mentioned above who never made it into F1 or even near it due to the factors above.

Driving an F1 car is not that hard. It never was and, if anything, it's even easier today. Who was the kid who said after their first try "that it was just like a video game"? Seriously, if you practice enough on simulations like rfactor and iracing then the only difference is coping with the reality of driving, not letting your emotions and your adrenalin get the better of you, keeping calm and relaxed etc.

Yes, no sim has accurately done tyre modelling yet, but they are not far off.

Practice, practice, practice, be focussed and determined, preferably have some good money aside or good contacts to bargain with.


:up: Agreed..... didn't someone once say that there's a farmer in Mongolia who's 2 seconds a lap faster than Michael Schumacher but will never have the chance to prove it? Its probably the least meritocratic sport ever, in that there are so many other factors involved in making it to F1, and so few kids even get to the stage of karting - they need to have well heeled or very determined parents to get even that far. This is the polar opposite of some sports, e.g; athletics or football. Its probably the case that even only moderate talents can reach F1, simply because the 'talent pool' is so limited in the first place.

Totally agree with your views on racing games too, they teach so many basics like racecraft, lines, and race driving technique that they make the transition to actual racing much easier. I speak from experience here, back in the 1990's I was fairly addicted to and pretty good at Geoff Crammonds GP2. Then I went karting with a group of friends, most of whom had considerable previous karting experience, and I was the only non-driver to boot, and I was immediately quick - winning races, etc. I doubt I've any particular talent, but I'd learnt a lot from a good simulation and most of the basics came instinctively........

Edited by wepmob2000, 21 January 2010 - 03:14.


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#40 Rob

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:01

I saw couple of FFord races last year and Josh was a midfielder there - 2 podiums and 11th overall. OK, he had 2 fastest laps also.
Josh is 19 now but considering his grandpa got driver's licence at the age of 23 and dad tried racing car in that age he is progressing well.


I hope he doesn't feel too pressured about having the famous name. If he makes it then it's all good, but if he doesn't then it's not the end of the world. Personally, I'm enjoying seeing that famous helmet out on the grid again.

19 isn't at all old. We've had a few ridiculously young F1 drivers, to the point where it's starting to feel normal. In reality, being 19 in Formula Ford is fine.

#41 potmotr

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:53

):

You have a house Potmotr ? When I was a kid I used to dream about .....................etc!


Yes, but probably not worth enough to buy a season in anything above Formula Palmer Audi.

And given my lack of ability I'd rather keep my house thank you!



#42 Muz Bee

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:55

:up: Agreed..... didn't someone once say that there's a farmer in Mongolia who's 2 seconds a lap faster than Michael Schumacher but will never have the chance to prove it? Its probably the least meritocratic sport ever, in that there are so many other factors involved in making it to F1, and so few kids even get to the stage of karting - they need to have well heeled or very determined parents to get even that far.

Regards your first sentence it was obviously a comment made with tongue in cheek.
Regards your second sentence I think you are being a little frivolous. While there is a considerable financial barrier to getting into real racecars (single seaters) let alone F1 there are enough young men around the world making into F3, and similar classes, and battling through to whatever level they reach, largely on results, that there is a fair old talent pool supporting the top layer.

If you were to look at a team sport - say, cricket - you would find plenty of extremely talented young people who for whatever stall out at a particular level, even though they show great ability at that level. There was a New Zealand test cricketer for example who got one shot at test (international) cricket and scored a 100 and a 50 in his two innings and was never selected again. It was rumoured that the the captain hated him. The sporting world is littered with talents who couldn't find their way to the top.

Taking the lack of money point of view then I would point out Niki Lauda's entry to F1 - he took out a suicidal loan and somehow made it happen. OK times are somewhat different but if the desire is there a person will find a way unless he lives in somewhere like the Sudan - in which case he probably won't make the Olympics for sprinting either. I think sons of former champions don't generally have a great advantage once they reach the higher grades. Money can get them well on the way, good advice - if it really is forthcoming! - can be an assist, and reputation will have a few advantages, but once you get on an F1 grid if you ain't got it...... I can't imagine Nigel being a fantastic mentor. He found his own unusual path through his own peculiar form of determination but you can't coach that.

Edited by Muz Bee, 21 January 2010 - 09:59.


#43 potmotr

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:00

There was a New Zealand test cricketer for example who got one shot at test (international) cricket and scored a 100 and a 50 in his two innings and was never selected again. It was rumoured that the the captain hated him.


Who was that Muz Bee?

I presume the captain was Stephen Fleming, he hated everyone.

#44 Galko877

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:07

Strange how some kids do so badly despite decent backing (I'm looking at your Nicolas Prost, Mathias Lauda and Vanina Icyx)



To be fair with Nicolas Prost, he didn't start racing until in his late 10s, early 20s IIRC. I think school was more important for him.

#45 primer

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:14

Nelson Piquet seemed to have some potential while he was in GP2 (unless his car was quicker than the rest.....and that kind of skullduggery would never happen in GP2, right?). But as soon as he entered F1 Fernando stole 0.6 from him and the rest is history.

#46 potmotr

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:01

To be fair with Nicolas Prost, he didn't start racing until in his late 10s, early 20s IIRC. I think school was more important for him.


Neither did Damon Hill though...

#47 Hyde

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:29

Regards your first sentence it was obviously a comment made with tongue in cheek.
Regards your second sentence I think you are being a little frivolous. While there is a considerable financial barrier to getting into real racecars (single seaters) let alone F1 there are enough young men around the world making into F3, and similar classes, and battling through to whatever level they reach, largely on results, that there is a fair old talent pool supporting the top layer.

If you were to look at a team sport - say, cricket - you would find plenty of extremely talented young people who for whatever stall out at a particular level, even though they show great ability at that level. There was a New Zealand test cricketer for example who got one shot at test (international) cricket and scored a 100 and a 50 in his two innings and was never selected again. It was rumoured that the the captain hated him. The sporting world is littered with talents who couldn't find their way to the top.

Taking the lack of money point of view then I would point out Niki Lauda's entry to F1 - he took out a suicidal loan and somehow made it happen. OK times are somewhat different but if the desire is there a person will find a way unless he lives in somewhere like the Sudan - in which case he probably won't make the Olympics for sprinting either. I think sons of former champions don't generally have a great advantage once they reach the higher grades. Money can get them well on the way, good advice - if it really is forthcoming! - can be an assist, and reputation will have a few advantages, but once you get on an F1 grid if you ain't got it...... I can't imagine Nigel being a fantastic mentor. He found his own unusual path through his own peculiar form of determination but you can't coach that.



Yes that does make a very good point. Villneuve's Dad was not around to mess with his son's determination and carrer path and very sensbly Keke Rosberg has not seemed intrusive or overbearing where Nico is concerned.
Nigel Mansell on the other hand seems a bit of a control freak!


#48 Terry Walker

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 12:10

Driving an F1 car quite fast is one thing; even I could do it. But racing an F1 at the absolute limit is a very, very different thing. Every few years someone points out that anyone can drive an F1 car at 9.5 tenths. It's the last half tenth that demands the right combination of talent, skill, judgment, and balls. Which very few people have.

#49 billm99uk

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 14:00

Nelson Piquet seemed to have some potential while he was in GP2 (unless his car was quicker than the rest.....and that kind of skullduggery would never happen in GP2, right?). But as soon as he entered F1 Fernando stole 0.6 from him and the rest is history.


Piquet jnr. is an excellent driver. He's just not quite an F1-standard driver. Unlike a lot of message board regulars would have you believe, you can grade on a curve you know ;)


#50 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 14:26

Neither did Damon Hill though...


Or Graham.