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How many of the new teams will still be competing in 2012


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Poll: How many of the new teams will still be competing in 2012? (79 member(s) have cast votes)

How many of the new teams will still be competing in 2012?

  1. 0 (2 votes [2.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.53%

  2. 1 (10 votes [12.66%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.66%

  3. 2 (33 votes [41.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.77%

  4. 3 (13 votes [16.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.46%

  5. 4 (21 votes [26.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.58%

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#1 JarnoA

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 21:39

Easy question. I personally believe that Lotus, (which will be 1Maylasia F1) will be the only new team to be on the grid in 2012.

Max has made much of manufacturers coming and going, but startups have a far worse record in going sooner rather than later.

BTW, I only tip 1Maylasia because it has the financial and government backing to keep it going. Virgin only has their name, and Branson will soon scarper once he realises that F1 isn't quite as easy as Brawn made it look.

Edited by Buttoneer, 21 January 2010 - 13:59.
Clarified poll due to confusion


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#2 BullHead

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 21:49

I think all four will compete, at least for the first couple of races. Only question marks to me seem to be over USF1 and Campos. Lotus as you say has good backup and professional grounding. So too I reckon has Virgin (good money) Manor (good professional crew). USF1 appear to be doing things, just a bit slowly and PR wise confusingly. Campos, I don't know, but their name keeps coming up in media negatively like USF1. If 2 or 3 of the new teams don't make the full season, I'll be a little surprised, but if one of them didn't even make the first race, I'll be very surprised.

#3 JarnoA

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 22:00

I think all four will compete, at least for the first couple of races. Only question marks to me seem to be over USF1 and Campos. Lotus as you say has good backup and professional grounding. So too I reckon has Virgin (good money) Manor (good professional crew). USF1 appear to be doing things, just a bit slowly and PR wise confusingly. Campos, I don't know, but their name keeps coming up in media negatively like USF1. If 2 or 3 of the new teams don't make the full season, I'll be a little surprised, but if one of them didn't even make the first race, I'll be very surprised.


Andrea Moda, Eifelland, EuroBrun, Fondmetal, Kauhsen, Life, Lola, Onyx, Pacific, Token, etc etc

Not to mention Virgin GP, err, I mean Simtek.

The number of startups failing vastly outnumbers the manufacturers failures.

Virgin hasn't got good money. Branson, the tight arsed bastard that he is, offered only his brand, not his cash.

The money Branson is putting into Manor wouldn't buy a helmet sticker in a real team.

Campos will go Arrows way, even with selling half his company to A1GP man. USF1 are highly unlikely to turn up to Bahrain 2010, let alone 2012. Windsor and Branson should team up. The amount of hot air that Windsor creates could make a balloon for Branson that actually makes the cut.

#4 potmotr

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 22:12

I think they'll all make it but only two will see out the season.

#5 JarnoA

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 22:38

Interesting to see that most think 2 teams will survive.

Who are the 2? USF1, Lotus (aka 1Malaysia), Campos Meta and Manor (AKA Beardy boy F1).

I really can't see any future for USF1, Campos or Manor.

I would have said the same about 1Malaysia if it weren't for the fact that the government together with Fernandes were funding it.

Jaguar lasted 5 years, and were considered a failure for withdrawing. Toyota lasted 8 years, BMW, 4 years, Honda 3 years, (all of these being their latest stints).

Who honestly thinks that USF1, Campos and Manor will be in F1 in even 2 years, let alone achieve podiums or wins, (as the 4 above failures have done)?

Manufacturers come and go over a matter of years. Startups come and go within a matter of months.

In the case of USF1, I will be highly surprised if it even comes in time for it to go.

#6 robracer

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 23:02

I don't see any reason why all four of the new teams for 2010 can't make their 3rd year in 2012, remember Super Aguri reached a 3rd season. If Aguri can last that long then so should these new teams.

#7 JarnoA

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 23:15

I don't see any reason why all four of the new teams for 2010 can't make their 3rd year in 2012, remember Super Aguri reached a 3rd season. If Aguri can last that long then so should these new teams.


Honda. Japanese car market. Sato?



#8 johnmhinds

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 23:20

I don't see any reason why all four of the new teams for 2010 can't make their 3rd year in 2012, remember Super Aguri reached a 3rd season. If Aguri can last that long then so should these new teams.


Super Aguri's budget was extremly minimal though because they were just running the old Hondas.

I think they will all be there in Bahrain, but only Lotus and Manor are going to finish the whole season.

#9 plastik2k9

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 00:13

2012 is quite far away; we don't even know if all 4 will make the 2010 grid yet. Small teams seem to rise and fall and change owners and names every season though, so the grid could be quite different in 2 years.

#10 mclarensmps

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 05:35

IMO 3.

I think Campos will make it.

#11 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 06:48

How about we get through 2010 before we start passing judgement on who will still be around in 2012? In fact, It might be adviseable to get through 2010 and 2011 first ...

#12 Mary Popsins

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 07:16

It all depends on the motives of the teams owners and stakeholders, and to be honest I can only be guessing.

Lotus will do it because the whole thing looks serious. Plus they have the best website, by far. Manor will do a Simtek, and unfortunately this could endanger the life of some drivers - and Ratzenberger is not here anymore to witness. Virgin will come and stay a little bit until they get the monopoly of the beetroot fuel for the series. USF1, it's a bit different: they are here to save the world and invade it. They will never stop.

#13 Muzzinho

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 08:16

USF1 and Campos will be the only ones remaining.

This is because they are run by real racing men who dreamt fom very early on to race in Formula one.

Virgin and Lotus are backed by two owners whos interest will wane when results dont come.

#14 DFV

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 08:43

USF1 and Campos will be the only ones remaining.

This is because they are run by real racing men who dreamt fom very early on to race in Formula one.

Virgin and Lotus are backed by two owners whos interest will wane when results dont come.


That is actually a good point as Campos and USF1 are similar to the start of Williams etc. in that it is people with a passion for racing that's behind them. If that's gonna keep them on the grid in 2012 is another question.

Who could have predicted 2 years ago that Honda, Toyota and BMW would pull out over a 12 month period? Maybe some would have said that one of them was probably going to leave, but all three in such a short time?

The poll is just about guessing as we don't even know if the teams will make it to Bahrain 2010 or through 2010. If any of the new teams announces a major sponsorship deal, that would change our predictions and we don't know any of that yet, so...

#15 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 08:56

That is actually a good point as Campos and USF1 are similar to the start of Williams etc. in that it is people with a passion for racing that's behind them. If that's gonna keep them on the grid in 2012 is another question.

I don't see why you're all discounting Virgin. After all, they originated as Manor Grand Prix, another team driven by passionate people. Virgin just purchased naming rights.

#16 Owen

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:11

I think 2 teams will show up.
And I'm wondering just how these teams were selected by the FIA if half of them can't compete?!

#17 slideways

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:20

If you're an emerging brand then spending 20-40 million tooling around at the back of an F1 grid being beaten by 12 other teams and their corresponding sponsors can be worthwhile to build name recognition. But we all know Virgin, and we're used to extreme achievement be it solo exploration or manned space flight or whatever.

I don't think he is investing enough to get a foot into the middle of the field (look at Mateschitz in comparison) and I don't think he will put up with them essentially tarnishing the brand name over an extended period of time.

#18 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:26

I think 2 teams will show up.
And I'm wondering just how these teams were selected by the FIA if half of them can't compete?!

We're talking about 2012, not 2010.

And Prodrive were selected by the FIA in 2007, but they never showed up.

#19 Owen

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:36

We're talking about 2012, not 2010.

And Prodrive were selected by the FIA in 2007, but they never showed up.

Sorry never it read it properly. :blush:
BTW I'm not gunning for Prodrive, I just find it odd that Campos and USF1 were selected as F1 entrants and now we're not sure if they will be at the first race. Just how rigorous was the selection?

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#20 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:53

I just find it odd that Campos and USF1 were selected as F1 entrants and now we're not sure if they will be at the first race. Just how rigorous was the selection?

The selection was actually quite detailed, but as the ongoing dispute between the FIA and FOTA had not come to a conclusion and had not mad any proposals as alternatives to the budget cap, the FIA assumed it would go ahead. They had to commit to it; they couldn't afford to wait for FOTA to make up their minds because it would leavezero time for the new teams to get started. What else could they have done?

While I don't doubt that Campos is having problems, however, I do doubt all the nay-saying about USF1. I think a fair chunk of it is people with an agenda who don't want to see them join the grid. After all, USF1 is the only team to have shown us a full-scale part.

#21 Owen

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:02

What else could they have done?

Perhaps established a more effective relationship with FOTA in the first place. But too late now. We have what we have.

#22 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:09

Perhaps established a more effective relationship with FOTA in the first place. But too late now. We have what we have.

FOTA are not saints. They were just as guilty and pigheaded as the FIA was. The entire breakaway episode was a manufacturer-backed escapade, and one that would have killed the sport faster than Max Mosley ever could have. Luca di Montezemolo's comments about having three-car teams was a taste of what would have been in store; the the most famous team on the grid and possibly the only one that never has to worry about money, Ferrari could afford to attract the three best drivers and thus regularly take the most points away from every race, thus establishing a new era of Ferrari dominance and one that would have been almost impossible the break. And that's what we would have gotten in a FOTA series: manufacturers alternating between outspending one another to the point where they would have driven teams like Williams out, and trying to manipulate the rule book in their favour.

Give me Max Mosley over that any day of the week that ends with "day". Mosley is manageable. FOTA-led series like that would have died long before it could be considered amaneable.

#23 Owen

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:35

FOTA are not saints. They were just as guilty and pigheaded as the FIA was. The entire breakaway episode was a manufacturer-backed escapade, and one that would have killed the sport faster than Max Mosley ever could have. Luca di Montezemolo's comments about having three-car teams was a taste of what would have been in store; the the most famous team on the grid and possibly the only one that never has to worry about money, Ferrari could afford to attract the three best drivers and thus regularly take the most points away from every race, thus establishing a new era of Ferrari dominance and one that would have been almost impossible the break. And that's what we would have gotten in a FOTA series: manufacturers alternating between outspending one another to the point where they would have driven teams like Williams out, and trying to manipulate the rule book in their favour.

Give me Max Mosley over that any day of the week that ends with "day". Mosley is manageable. FOTA-led series like that would have died long before it could be considered amaneable.

I think it's worth taking a step back and understanding why FOTA was created in the first place. The FIA needs to listen as well as speak sometimes.

#24 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:41

I think it's worth taking a step back and understanding why FOTA was created in the first place. The FIA needs to listen as well as speak sometimes.

Oh, absolutely. But the FIA and FOTA need to co-exist as a check against the other. As soon as you remove one from the equation, the other will rise up and follow its own agenda. And that can only be a bad thing.

#25 alfiebengal

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:41

I really think you should change this poll to how many will survive because I'm fairly certain most will be there for the first race but the blood letting will start fairly quickly and we'll end up with two left IMHO

#26 DFV

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:44

I really think you should change this poll to how many will survive because I'm fairly certain most will be there for the first race but the blood letting will start fairly quickly and we'll end up with two left IMHO


The poll is about 2012, not 2010.

#27 alfiebengal

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 13:40

The poll is about 2012, not 2010.

Whoops, obviously wrong glasses on today. I beg your indulgence.

#28 Mungo Fangio of the Year

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 13:47

2

#29 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 13:58

Virgin and Lotus are backed by two owners whos interest will wane when results dont come.


EH? Virgin is just Manor with added Virgin sponsorship. It was Manor that won the spot on the grid not Virgin remember.

#30 Buttoneer

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 14:00

I made a small wording change to the thread title and poll since some people are not spotting the 2012 thing. Hopefully the OP won't mind.

#31 MegaManson

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 14:05

1Malaysia - Will be fine, government money and Gazza, they will be there in 2012

USF1 - Will make Bahrain for sure but the whole thing makes me think Mastercard Lola, Stefan GP will buy their grid slot for 2011

Campos - Will sell to Briatore and become Briatore F1 in 2011

Virgin - Think they will be ok, with Wirth being the FIA's golden boy the FIA won't let them fail, expect plenty of Bernie/Max cash through the backdoor to keep them afloat

#32 robracer

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 14:12

1Malaysia - Will be fine, government money and Gazza, they will be there in 2012

USF1 - Will make Bahrain for sure but the whole thing makes me think Mastercard Lola, Stefan GP will buy their grid slot for 2011

Campos - Will sell to Briatore and become Briatore F1 in 2011

Virgin - Think they will be ok, with Wirth being the FIA's golden boy the FIA won't let them fail, expect plenty of Bernie/Max cash through the backdoor to keep them afloat


Won't happen, Briatore says he won't manage an F1 team again.

#33 MegaManson

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 14:15

Won't happen, Briatore says he won't manage an F1 team again.


He says that but I wouldn't be so sure, his ego is too big to just stay out of the limelight tbh

I can see him buying a team maybe in partnership with someone else, can see him buying Campos (he owns the tv rights to F1 in Spain) or Toro Rosso



#34 MegaManson

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 14:19

USF1
Toro Rosso
Force India
Campos

I see them all under new names/owrnership or simply gone to the wall by the start of the 2012 season

I think there will be a Russian team before too long too, GazpromF1 or something with Vitaly Petrov as a driver up in place to coincide with future Russian grand prix

Edited by MegaManson, 21 January 2010 - 14:20.


#35 BullHead

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 17:51

Actually I misread the topic :blush: still competing in 2012. Oh well. Ignore my first post (#2). Probably 2 of them, as the poll results suggest so far. I'd go for Virgin and Lotus, but Virgin will probably be something else by then.

#36 mclarensmps

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 18:08

Virgin and Lotus are backed by two owners whos interest will wane when results dont come.


Virgin is just a sponsor for Manor, which is made up real racing men. They may not be called Virgin two years from now, but the team will probably remain intact with whatever name they fancy.

#37 Bouncing Pink Ball

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 19:15

I have no idea how to guess who or how many will stay until I've seen them try to survive a first season. Give me a few months and I'll make a prediction then.




#38 giacomo

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 19:21

2012 is science fiction now.

The decisive question is how many of those new teams will be competing in 2010.

#39 Muz Bee

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 22:39

Optimistically -

2

USA is in such poor economic health that I can't understand how anyone can contemplate an F1 investment now when F1 isn't really highly regarded there at any time. Hell even motorcycle racing is in deep trouble there. I expect they won't truly make the grid at Melbourne, may struggle to a couple of European events before being booted into touch.

Campos may think they can ride a wave of Spanish nationalism but they will probably be a struggler to make the end of 2010. I expect them to be bought up by a more qualified outfit like Prodrive.

Manor will survive while Virgin are there. Mr Branson isn't used to being second rate so he will be gone end of 2011 I expect but the team may be able to find backers to continue the battle.

Lotus have a good chance of survival to 2012 and beyond. They should have the goal of finding their way into that place glumly called "the midfield" by their 3rd season but maybe expect a few glimmers of success before that time.

Edited by Muz Bee, 21 January 2010 - 22:41.


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#40 JarnoA

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 23:14

I made a small wording change to the thread title and poll since some people are not spotting the 2012 thing. Hopefully the OP won't mind.



No worries, I should have made it such to start with.

#41 Lamag

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:00

I think all of them