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about Testing ban - secret testing possible ?


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#1 mistergagaX

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 14:41

Im sure some of you must know this answer ...**** First off I would like to give my opinion on the *new* F1 (ie :post 2008) ...
For me F1 is no longer F1 , but more likely F2. They went form V10 engines to V8 engine, they have introduced a ''snowplow'' looking front wing on the cars , the rear wings look incredibly ridiculous, the banning of fuel loading,the changing of new points system (again!),the mandatory law that a driver has to use both types of tire compounds,the limitation in off-and-on season testing etc etc ...To me the new F1 has become waterded-down .. It is a step back in terms of performance and developpement ! ...*****


Okay, now to the topic, with the new rules in place saying that off-season testing is banned and in-season testing has become very limited, how in the world would the FIA know if a team is/was testing behind closed doors ... Doing secret tests ??

If I was a F1 team owner ( ie :like Richard Branson , a billionaire with no shortage of money) what would prevent me from building a SECRET TEST track in the middle of the desert or on some island in the middle of the atlantic ocean ? Or even better ,build a secret test track INDOORS with asphalt, sand traps, artificial lighting, grass, wind blowers etc ??? ... How would the FIA ever know about that, unless the team doing the secret testing has a Judas employee and rats on them .... seriously speaking ...

IMO limiting testing has got to be overturned and F1 has to return to its glory days ... F1 should be F1 , not a F2 series ... :

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#2 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 15:00

If I was a F1 team owner ( ie :like Richard Branson , a billionaire with no shortage of money) what would prevent me from building a SECRET TEST track in the middle of the desert or on some island in the middle of the atlantic ocean ? Or even better ,build a secret test track INDOORS with asphalt, sand traps, artificial lighting, grass, wind blowers etc ??? ... How would the FIA ever know about that, unless the team doing the secret testing has a Judas employee and rats on them .... seriously speaking ...
:

:rotfl:

#3 RodrigoL

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 15:04

Sure, all that is possible. It's just easier to do it Ferrari's way... :)

#4 Jackmancer

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 15:07

Well I do wonder if FiA checks team weither they are actually using 60% scalemodels. Is some FiA guy walking in the factory all the time?

Same thing with the budgetcap, I don't think it can be fully checked.

But ehm, building a circuit in the middle of a desert... hmm :D

#5 Burai

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 15:16

Okay, now to the topic, with the new rules in place saying that off-season testing is banned and in-season testing has become very limited, how in the world would the FIA know if a team is/was testing behind closed doors ... Doing secret tests ??

If I was a F1 team owner ( ie :like Richard Branson , a billionaire with no shortage of money) what would prevent me from building a SECRET TEST track in the middle of the desert or on some island in the middle of the atlantic ocean ? Or even better ,build a secret test track INDOORS with asphalt, sand traps, artificial lighting, grass, wind blowers etc ??? ... How would the FIA ever know about that, unless the team doing the secret testing has a Judas employee and rats on them .... seriously speaking ...


When I was 10, I thought that Thunderbirds would be possible in real life too.

#6 Mansell4PM

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 15:20

When I was 10, I thought that Thunderbirds would be possible in real life too.


Was there not an episode of Thunderbirds where Brains designed a revolutionary sports car, that Alan Tracy then went on to race? IIRC some villains then went on to steal it. They maybe would have been better off photocopying the plans though.

Or maybe not.

#7 Clatter

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 15:27

Im sure some of you must know this answer ...**** First off I would like to give my opinion on the *new* F1 (ie :post 2008) ...
For me F1 is no longer F1 , but more likely F2. They went form V10 engines to V8 engine, they have introduced a ''snowplow'' looking front wing on the cars , the rear wings look incredibly ridiculous, the banning of fuel loading,the changing of new points system (again!),the mandatory law that a driver has to use both types of tire compounds,the limitation in off-and-on season testing etc etc ...To me the new F1 has become waterded-down .. It is a step back in terms of performance and developpement ! ...*****


Okay, now to the topic, with the new rules in place saying that off-season testing is banned and in-season testing has become very limited, how in the world would the FIA know if a team is/was testing behind closed doors ... Doing secret tests ??

If I was a F1 team owner ( ie :like Richard Branson , a billionaire with no shortage of money) what would prevent me from building a SECRET TEST track in the middle of the desert or on some island in the middle of the atlantic ocean ? Or even better ,build a secret test track INDOORS with asphalt, sand traps, artificial lighting, grass, wind blowers etc ??? ... How would the FIA ever know about that, unless the team doing the secret testing has a Judas employee and rats on them .... seriously speaking ...

IMO limiting testing has got to be overturned and F1 has to return to its glory days ... F1 should be F1 , not a F2 series ... :


Seriously speaking, you have no idea do you?. Have you even thought about the numbers of people that would have to be involved to build this mythical track in the middle of nowhere? And you think it would remain secret? Still the Americans seem to have managed it with their moon hoax. :rolleyes:

#8 Xaus

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 15:29

I thought Branson's secret volcano lair out in the middle of the pacific ocean had a secret test track which Timo & Lucas use 24/7?.... when they're not plotting with Branson towards World Domination.

#9 maverick69

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:09

You'd have to employ Oompa-Loompa's if you wanted it to remain a secret :up: :smoking:

#10 salamin

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:10

well there is Stefan GP...

#11 mistergagaX

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:15

at the above posters :rotfl: You guys are really funny ! I understand the jokes and Im not insulted so keep it up !

#12 Sisplatin

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:20

You'd have to employ Oompa-Loompa's if you wanted it to remain a secret :up: :smoking:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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#13 maverick69

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:21

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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:rotfl:

I knew Ferrari were already up to something like that!

#14 maverick69

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:22

at the above posters :rotfl: You guys are really funny ! I understand the jokes and Im not insulted so keep it up !


Good man :up:

#15 mistergagaX

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:26

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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could look like a Ferrari pit crew mecanic :rotfl:

#16 Youichi

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:31

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Is that Jean Alesi testing for Ferrari ?

#17 Sisplatin

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:32

I can see the similarities here :lol: :lol:, The Oompa Loompa Todt :lol: :lol:
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Edited by Sisplatin, 21 January 2010 - 16:33.


#18 Music Man

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:38

I guess the problem would be obtaining tires from Bridgestone. I doubt that Bridgestone would simply deliver 10+ sets (or, as a matter of fact, any number of sets) of tires with no questions asked.

#19 mistergagaX

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:44

I guess the problem would be obtaining tires from Bridgestone. I doubt that Bridgestone would simply deliver 10+ sets (or, as a matter of fact, any number of sets) of tires with no questions asked.


THANK YOU ! :)

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#20 Talryyn

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:52

Used to be rumors that teams were testing in Texas and other parts of the US. I remember a kart race long ago, and while on the track I saw marks that most people were saying were from the grooved F1 tires, this track is also used or was used by Champ teams. During the race I looked off towards where we were not allowed to pit and I did see an all black open wheel car being rolled out of a truck (next lap it was inside a garage so I never got to see what it was). Way out in the middle of nowhere, with the nearest town of say more than 10,000 people being an hour away. Ferrari did test their 333SP at Texas World Speedway, but that would be much to close to a large population for an F1 test.

So I am sure if you really wanted to you could find a place to test, but I think today it is much harder than yesterday. Ferrari/McLaren can hide the expenses on the road car side of things, but a smaller team would have the expenses of flying somewhere sticking out like a sore thumb.

#21 Talryyn

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 16:55

THANK YOU ! :)


This was all posted while I was posting, but this was not always the case if I remember right. It is a more recent thing that teams have the tires checked so closely. But I agree today you would have to run GP2 rubber which still has to be checked out, or an old set off a show car. ;)


#22 mistergagaX

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 17:00

This was all posted while I was posting, but this was not always the case if I remember right. It is a more recent thing that teams have the tires checked so closely. But I agree today you would have to run GP2 rubber which still has to be checked out, or an old set off a show car.;)



THANK YOU x 2 ! :) :)

#23 Raincoat

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 17:33

If I was a F1 team owner ( ie :like Richard Branson , a billionaire with no shortage of money) what would prevent me from building a SECRET TEST track in the middle of the desert or on some island in the middle of the atlantic ocean ? Or even better ,build a secret test track INDOORS with asphalt, sand traps, artificial lighting, grass, wind blowers etc ??? ... How would the FIA ever know about that, unless the team doing the secret testing has a Judas employee and rats on them .... seriously speaking ...

IMO limiting testing has got to be overturned and F1 has to return to its glory days ... F1 should be F1 , not a F2 series ... :



Yes its possible to build track worth millions without anyone know what you are doing. And then have a car , a team of testers drive the car without anyone knowing about it :lol:

#24 Montoya1

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 19:10

How come Alonso tested today?

Hate the new colors by the by.

#25 Victor_RO

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 19:15

How come Alonso tested today?

Hate the new colors by the by.


Running under the proviso of the "promotional running" clause of the testing rules. Basically filming for a commercial, driving slowly and with rock-hard tires.

#26 MARDRU

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 19:23

Not so long ago, Nelson Piquet jr had been testing F3 cars when there was also a testing ban.
At that time, Nelson Sr was responsable for Brasília´s (Brasil) track and Nelsinho used a slightly modified F3 for +- 30 days of private testing.

#27 giacomo

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 19:48

Of course secret testing is possible. As long as it remains a secret.

That's the case with all kinds of cheating.  ;)

#28 eliteboy2780

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 20:17

each team is duty bound to report to the fia any knowledge or any instances of testing that is not within the regulations, as are the circuits themselves. e.g. williams could not just rock up to silverstone and do a full scale test. secondly you would be surprised anyway how much the f1 teams are at silverstone doing some sort of running, either with the previous years car, or straightline testing, or even just sponsor days. there are ways around everything.

#29 Buttoneer

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 20:18

Used to be rumors that teams were testing in Texas and other parts of the US. I remember a kart race long ago, and while on the track I saw marks that most people were saying were from the grooved F1 tires, this track is also used or was used by Champ teams. During the race I looked off towards where we were not allowed to pit and I did see an all black open wheel car being rolled out of a truck (next lap it was inside a garage so I never got to see what it was). Way out in the middle of nowhere, with the nearest town of say more than 10,000 people being an hour away. Ferrari did test their 333SP at Texas World Speedway, but that would be much to close to a large population for an F1 test.

So I am sure if you really wanted to you could find a place to test, but I think today it is much harder than yesterday. Ferrari/McLaren can hide the expenses on the road car side of things, but a smaller team would have the expenses of flying somewhere sticking out like a sore thumb.

Yeah why not? America is a big old place and if you go with anonymised cars and transporters I'm sure it's eminently possible to get some decent performance testing done. The tyres are an issue of course because I think they are all collected up at the end of the race weekend but maybe there's a relationship some of the teams can lean on? Toyota, for example, having a discussion about the use of Bridgestone tyres on every car they manufacture?

I'd say some secret testing is very possible. I just find it hard to believe they could keep it all hidden when there is so much personnel movement between teams.

#30 Talryyn

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 00:37

Yeah why not? America is a big old place and if you go with anonymised cars and transporters I'm sure it's eminently possible to get some decent performance testing done. The tyres are an issue of course because I think they are all collected up at the end of the race weekend but maybe there's a relationship some of the teams can lean on? Toyota, for example, having a discussion about the use of Bridgestone tyres on every car they manufacture?

I'd say some secret testing is very possible. I just find it hard to believe they could keep it all hidden when there is so much personnel movement between teams.


Schumacher rides his Harley around the US because nobody bothers him (how many of us in the US could recognize him). What was I actually going to say though?

Ahh yes, there are plenty of rock hard tires on the show cars. MS has a stockpile at his indoor karting place of the cars on display for example! I am sure Alonso has some as well. Probably only good for a few laps, but they are there..;)

#31 KiloWatt

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 05:55

I guess they could go testing and there are ways around everything. But the consequences of being caught is waaaaay to high for any team to risk. And it is a risk. No matter how well you plan it, there will always be a risk.

#32 Augurk

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 10:32

The following could explain some of the road blocks towards secret testing:

F1 teams are not only a sportive element, they are also quite simply companies who have to report finances and obey all legal obligations. So a huge problem with building your secret (in- or outdoors) track: building permits and financing. There will always be a paper trail, even if you manage to keep it secret amongst the team and builders.

Building permits have to be given by city councils and, at least in most western countries, councils have to be transparent about their city planning. So issuing a building permit would require the council to make note of this in their weekly, monthly or quarterly reports. Anyone can find out what's being built anywhere and how this fits in the city planning.

At the end of the financial year also F1 teams have to publish a year report, which I'm sure is also an obligation they have towards the FIA. Financial year reports have to be approved by an established accountant (say Deloitte, KPMG, PricewaterhouseCoopers, etc). Accountants only approve if the finances reported in the year report give a true and fair view of the financial position of the company. Building any track secretly would mean letting hundreds of millions disappear. This is not only a sporting offence, but it is in fact the worst case of fraud, punishable by legal action and sometimes even accountable to the management, resulting in possible jail time. So in short it would not only make the team liable to punishment by the FIA (not with whips as Max is gone, but in f.i. bannishment or a fine), it would also endanger the continuïty of the entire company and possibly give the management a criminal record.

As for testing on an existing track - well perhaps this could be done. You wouldn't actually have to go into so much detail in a financial report as to describing when, where and how much you spent on each testing session, as long as you have accounted all testing costs towards testing or R&D or something. But this would then count towards the budget cap. And there are so much other issues with testing on existing tracks. Most notably that you probably would never go unseen.



PS: building an indoor track sounds like an awesome plan though, imagine how big the building would have to be for it to be a viable F1 testing track :rotfl: Not even the size of a football stadium would suffice :stoned:

#33 dslammers

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:10

There were always rumours that McLaren has a indoor track, under the McLaren Technology Centre :drunk:

#34 Augurk

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:11

There were always rumours that McLaren has a indoor track, under the McLaren Technology Centre :drunk:

So that's where they secretly test Ferrari's!

#35 One

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:24

:drunk: Do someone go ing to check alabama if USF1 guys are testing their car already?

#36 wingwalker

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:27

There were always rumours that McLaren has a indoor track, under the McLaren Technology Centre :drunk:




Yeah and I think they have a mole in Area 51 - thanks to that they figured out the visual-stealth technology which allows them to run all-transparent cars at their underground tracks. Amazing what F1 technology is capable of these days.

#37 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:52

PS: building an indoor track sounds like an awesome plan though, imagine how big the building would have to be for it to be a viable F1 testing track :rotfl: Not even the size of a football stadium would suffice :stoned:

Perhaps a hollowed-out volcano on an island in the pacific somewhere which S.P.E.C.T.R.E no longer needs?

#38 Augurk

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:57

Perhaps a hollowed-out volcano on an island in the pacific somewhere which S.P.E.C.T.R.E no longer needs?

:rotfl:

Would have to be extra wary of Jenson (JB) who would most certainly be able to take them down :clap:

#39 Mark A

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:18

Manufacturers all have their own test tracks so it is possible, I was at the BMW test track in the South of France one when they ran their F1 engine for the 1st time back in 1998 IIRC.
That was an old Williams chassis with a subcontracted Williams test team.

The cars were run on Michelin tyres and driven by Jorg Muller.

Posted Image

Posted Image
(Pics from an old www.research-racing.de Michelin F1 article)

They ran the F1 car, the Le Mans car and all their Tour and GT cars there at various stages. It isn't possible to see the circuit from outside and with so many different high performance engines running their at various times it's not exactly a surprise to the locals when one starts up (although there aren't too many houses nearby).

I was last there in 2000 but know the F1 guys kept running their up until the test ban.

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#40 Frans

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:26

Hi, just got back myself from a secret F1 test.. oops, I wasn't allowed to SAY that! Damn damndamn

#41 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 14:23

Were they testing transparent engine covers?

#42 ForeverF1

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 14:27

Yeah, but everyone could see through that strategy.  ;)

#43 taz

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 19:04

there's a Ford test track in Belgium (Lommel Proving Grounds), that was frequently used by Jaguar a few years ago.. it's located in a forest where no one could see them, but unfortunately F1 engines make lots of noise :)

JANUARY 16, 2003
The new Jaguar to run at Lommel

The new Jaguar R4 is to have its first shakedown runs at the Ford Motor Company's Lommel Proving Ground in Belgium later this week. This will be second year in which the team has used Lommel to do the first tests of a new car, providing the team with no interruptions and away from prying eyes. The facility, which is located close to the Belgian-Dutch border near Eindhoven, has 40 miles of different tracks which the company use to try out its products and can simulate a variety of different conditions. The 800 acre facility was recently upgraded with an investment of $12.8m to build a special vehicle dynamics area and a new high-speed handling course.



#44 Slartibartfast

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 23:29

There are a lot of private tracks around. There is a privately owned one in Spain which, I am told, is surrounded by military land and therefore can't be spied on. That may be the usual grapevine b*****ks, of course, but the track's certainly secluded.

#45 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 02:04

Was there not an episode of Thunderbirds where Brains designed a revolutionary sports car, that Alan Tracy then went on to race? IIRC some villains then went on to steal it. They maybe would have been better off photocopying the plans though.

Or maybe not.


Ya and poor Alan was on a bridge with a bomb and his granny lol

#46 r4mses

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 02:36

k, let's try to get this thread serious again :p

Well I do wonder if FiA checks team weither they are actually using 60% scalemodels. Is some FiA guy walking in the factory all the time?

[...]


...that's smth I ask myself for quite a while. How do they check if teams stick to 60% models, limited time in wind tunnels, summer break, etc? Can't imagine FIA-guys running around the teams' offices checking if/how long they're working... Oo

Secret testing is something fundamentally different. Doubt that's possible.

#47 Demo.

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 05:52

Perhaps a hollowed-out volcano on an island in the pacific somewhere which S.P.E.C.T.R.E no longer needs?


no i think you will find that the british goverment hire's out the emergency underground road system under london.


Lets be honest if a team really wanted to have secret testing all they need to do is have the parent company set up a second team who never race and are supplied with all data make copies do the tests and feed back data. The fia could check the teams books to their hearts content and yet see nothing, the tracks would have nothing to report back to the FIA. Are there any limitations on Bridgestone over who it can supply F1 tyres to?
The big question is do any teams do illegal testing i dont think so, yes they may push the testing rule to its maximum at times (and some teams more than others) but no IMHO they don't illegally test

#48 SilentKiller

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 06:36

I read somewhere, sometime ago, that Nico Hulkenberg was a possible replacement for Massa in 2009 after Hungary and Ferrari has secret tests with him in Mugello in the F60.....and Willi Weber decided against the move.

How much truth in it???!!!! :well:

#49 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 07:36

Not even Ferrari could get away with that. If it was somehow true, Weber would have been right to say no. Illegal testing could have killed The Hulk's career there and then. Someone would have noticed; the only time I can recall a racing team ever doing testing off the books was Team Dynamik, an Australian V8 Supercar team. They claimed their testing was a promotional thing, but they were using the session to test new parts. An aerodynamic windscreen wiper of all things, I believe. They got hit really hard; I think both their drivers were considered to be a lap down on the entire field from the very beginning of the races in the first two rounds; that's six whole races. Not that they were ever title contenders or anything, but still ...

#50 JPW

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 13:33

There are a lot of private tracks around. There is a privately owned one in Spain which, I am told, is surrounded by military land and therefore can't be spied on. That may be the usual grapevine b*****ks, of course, but the track's certainly secluded.

You probably mean the Ascari race resort near Ronda, I've been there and although it's rather secluded and private one can easily access it, no way one could secretly test there without the risk of being found out.

Sure it's possible for all teams to maybe expand a straight line test with a couple of laps or test some parts on another (older) car, but a proper full day test no, the risk of being found out is too big as is the amount of people that would have to be involved.