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If Ayrton was alive and well, how would Bruno's career shape up?


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#1 Patriot

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:35

If Ayrton was alive and well, how would Bruno's carrer shape up?

Obviously he wouldnt have the huge racing gap that was imposed by his fammily after his uncle died.

His uncle would have some strong ties in McLaren and Williams

How would all that unfold. Please discuss. Use your imagination.


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#2 Jackmancer

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:41

Probably to the likes of Keke and Nico.

#3 lafitek

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:11

If Ayrton was alive and well, how would Bruno's carrer shape up?

Obviously he wouldnt have the huge racing gap that was imposed by his fammily after his uncle died.

His uncle would have some strong ties in McLaren and Williams

How would all that unfold. Please discuss. Use your imagination.

he would be in ferrari since 2006 with 2 titles till now ;)

#4 Atreiu

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:12

I have no idea.

#5 highdownforce

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:24

If Ayrton was alive and well, how would Bruno's carrer shape up?

Obviously he wouldnt have the huge racing gap that was imposed by his fammily after his uncle died.

His uncle would have some strong ties in McLaren and Williams

How would all that unfold. Please discuss. Use your imagination.

I've no idea at all.
It's worth to mention that the decision of keeping him away from motorsport for so many years is also based on the death of his father, Flávio Lalli, in a motorcycle crash in 1996, two years after Ayrton's death.

#6 Lifew12

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:27

He's not exactly got the sponsors rushing to the door at Campos, has he?

#7 SeanValen

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:27

I'm sure it would of helped get Bruno into a team quicker, and Ayrton would of provided advice that improved his nephew as a driver.

And while having the Senna name helps, the name still makes people think of Ayrton Senna, not Bruno, had Senna been alive, Bruno would be a bit like like Ralf Schumacher being a Schumacher, but not popular like Michael, as Michael and Ayrton are the stars attached to the name, even now Bruno has that larger Senna shadow looming. Ayrton may have died in 1994, but it's like in some respects, he hasn't left the minds of alot of f1 fans in the present day, and you got Lewis Hamilton still wearing that yellow helmet which reminds me of A Senna anyhow. For Bruno to have any sort of career is cool, but indirectly without saying it or thinking hard not to think about it, you want Bruno to be like Ayrton in qualifying and on the track, but the chances of that happening are unlikely. With Hamilton's yellow helmet and Senna's nephew in f1, it just provokes alot of memories of the great Ayrton, I still wanna see him out on track, 1994 seemed not long ago, sometimes life is messed up.

I met Bruno Senna once in a karting event, and just to be around the nephew of Ayrton was like meeting a decedent of a racing god :eek: , and all I did lol was ask questions about Ayrton. He's like the last link of actually seeing any sort of Senna DNA on track on modern f1, its' not his fault, Senna just happened to be a all time f1 superstar.

:smoking:

Edited by SeanValen, 27 January 2010 - 12:30.


#8 wingwalker

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:28

Name 'Senna' wouldn't be as exciting as it is now. But how would it change Bruno's career? I have no idea whatsoever.

#9 Levike

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:34

Name 'Senna' wouldn't be as exciting as it is now. But how would it change Bruno's career? I have no idea whatsoever.


It was already exciting when he lived. Why should it change ?

#10 MARDRU

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:42

he would be in ferrari since 2006 with 2 titles till now ;)



Considering Senna would have finished his career driving a Ferrari (and likelly would have won some more 4 or 5 titles in 96, 97,98,99 and 00) and what Jean Todt (Nicolas) had done for Massa, i think you could be right.

#11 Jackmancer

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:42

It was already exciting when he lived. Why should it change ?


No, I think he is right. Death romanticises people. Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, Elvis, etc. Senna had the same style as Schumacher (not talking about charisma), but Schumacher is a smuck for it.

#12 Beamer

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:46

If Ayrton was alive and well, how would Bruno's carrer shape up?

Obviously he wouldnt have the huge racing gap that was imposed by his fammily after his uncle died.

His uncle would have some strong ties in McLaren and Williams

How would all that unfold. Please discuss. Use your imagination.

Who cares? :confused:

#13 Burai

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:54

Bruno would likely be passed over in favour of Ayrton's own children.

#14 Jackmancer

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 13:16

Who cares? :confused:


If you don't care about a topic then wtf are you doing here? Srly...

#15 taran

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 13:25

I agree the name would not have the same resonance it has now.

As said previously, Senna was a schmuck. He had all the nasty tricks of Schumacher (in fact, Schumacher was the result of Senna) and his death has largely erased his bad behaviour from the collective memory in a way a normal career never would. In addition, his career would have slowly stalled in the face of Schumacher.

People often remember the final days of a star and not so much his glory days (which is why it is important to know when to quit).

If Senna hadn't died, he would be seen as a Piquet or a Prost. An excellent driver in his day with a couple of titles to show for it.

And someone with his same name would generate attention similar to Nelson Piquet jr. and Nicholas Prost but hardly enough to set the world aflame.....

#16 potmotr

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 13:34

An interesting question.

If Ayrton had have lived Bruno wouldn't have quit karting.

Therefore he'd probably have risen up the ladder even faster.

With his uncle's single-minded hand guiding Bruno, I'd say he'd be a much more serious individual than the nice guy we see at the moment.

I'm sure Ayrton would have helped him make the right career steps in Europe.

One thing I don't think Bruno would have had is an easy ride.

Ayrton was a perfectionist and would have been Bruno's harshest critic I'd say.

#17 MARDRU

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 13:37

I agree the name would not have the same resonance it has now.

As said previously, Senna was a schmuck. He had all the nasty tricks of Schumacher (in fact, Schumacher was the result of Senna) and his death has largely erased his bad behaviour from the collective memory in a way a normal career never would. In addition, his career would have slowly stalled in the face of Schumacher.

People often remember the final days of a star and not so much his glory days (which is why it is important to know when to quit).

If Senna hadn't died, he would be seen as a Piquet or a Prost. An excellent driver in his day with a couple of titles to show for it.

And someone with his same name would generate attention similar to Nelson Piquet jr. and Nicholas Prost but hardly enough to set the world aflame.....


You must be young. If you want to know how big Senna was at that time, read specialized magazines (Autosprint cover FORMULA SENNA comes to my mind) or watch others drivers comments about him (Fangio, amongst other greats, said at that time, AS was the best of all, no doubts). He trounced Prost, an all time great. He didn´t let MS score a single pole while he was alive.

He was a living legend at that time. The biggest one.

Edited by MARDRU, 27 January 2010 - 13:38.


#18 Levike

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 13:41

No, I think he is right. Death romanticises people. Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, Elvis, etc. Senna had the same style as Schumacher (not talking about charisma), but Schumacher is a smuck for it.


I don't know when were you born, but take my word, Senna was already a legend in his life.
Maybe his death gave some sentiments, but the atmosphere around him was unique. He was treaten as a demi-god in his life.
As far as i remember. I was 18 when he died. Naturally there were Prost and Mansell fans or some who simply disliked him, but the general perception was special. His name alone was a synonime of bravery, unquestionable speed and in different circumstances, like wet, everebody was looking at him, expecting some magic. He delivered it so often, that when he made a mistake, people were remembering themselves, that 'oh, Senna is just a normal guy too'.
I saw it this way during his life. With all of his undeniable shortcomings, he had something different from the rest.

Edited by Levike, 27 January 2010 - 13:42.


#19 gio66

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 13:44

I met Bruno Senna once in a karting event, and just to be around the nephew of Ayrton was like meeting a decedent of a racing god :eek: , and all I did lol was ask questions about Ayrton.


I spoke with Bruno several times over the last 5 years but I never had the courage to talk about Ayrton with him. I have spoken only once with Viviane and I was very embarrassed, afraid to cause her pain but she is a woman extraordinarily serene. That's why I love this family.

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#20 Sophie

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 13:48

I've no idea at all.
It's worth to mention that the decision of keeping him away from motorsport for so many years is also based on the death of his father, Flávio Lalli, in a motorcycle crash in 1996, two years after Ayrton's death.


I really didnt know that his Dad died in a motorbike crash. It must be hard for him to keep up the sport knowing they both died racing. Fair play to him!
But in answer to the question, I have no idea! :D haha

#21 gio66

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 13:48

Ayrton was a perfectionist and would have been Bruno's harshest critic I'd say.


Undoubtedly.

Just as Sr. Milton was hugely critical of Ayrton. And it does so with Bruno.

#22 Patriot

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 13:53

You must be young. If you want to know how big Senna was at that time, read specialized magazines (Autosprint cover FORMULA SENNA comes to my mind) or watch others drivers comments about him (Fangio, amongst other greats, said at that time, AS was the best of all, no doubts). He trounced Prost, an all time great. He didn´t let MS score a single pole while he was alive.

He was a living legend at that time. The biggest one.


well I am not tarans advocte, but

how many times prior to 5/1/1994 have you heard people talking about AS as the greatest ever

I never heard that. I heard plenty of Clark and Fangio in that context, but never Senna

Edited by Patriot, 27 January 2010 - 13:54.


#23 gio66

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 13:55

I really didnt know that his Dad died in a motorbike crash.


He was bringing home a Ducati which was exhibited in a salon. He fell from almost stationary but he suffered very serious injuries to his head.

#24 highdownforce

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 13:59

[...]It must be hard for him to keep up the sport knowing they both died racing.[...]

Not racing, it was an accident on a traffic road.
IIRC, Flávio was taking Ayrton's MV Augusta to a gas station, he was about to drive the bike to a country side property of the Senna family.

#25 Arska

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 14:02

Bruno would likely be passed over in favour of Ayrton's own children.


You mean those that would be at most 15 years old now? :stoned:


#26 gio66

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 14:04

IIRC, Flávio was taking Ayrton's MV Augusta to a gas station


IIRC it was a 916 Senna but maybe I'm wrong.

#27 highdownforce

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 14:06

IIRC it was a 916 Senna but maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe, I'm not sure about it.

#28 wingwalker

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 14:12

I'm not saying what was Senna status when he was alive, he certainly was about equal to God in Brazil, but a three times F1 champion killed in an on track accident is a better legend material than a three time F1 champion, now happily retired, around 50 and a happy father of two children. Big part of what "Senna" is today is the fact that actual Ayrton Senna is not around since Imola 1994.

Edited by wingwalker, 27 January 2010 - 14:13.


#29 Jackmancer

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 14:23

I don't know when were you born, but take my word, Senna was already a legend in his life.


Living legends fade. Look at Niki Lauda or Jackie Stewart now.

#30 Patriot

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 14:31

Living legends fade. Look at Niki Lauda or Jackie Stewart now.

so sad they seem like clowns

IMO if Ayrton were alive he would be even bigger clown (remember the stories about God and Jesus that he told during his carrer)

#31 Lifew12

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 14:55

well I am not tarans advocte, but

how many times prior to 5/1/1994 have you heard people talking about AS as the greatest ever

I never heard that. I heard plenty of Clark and Fangio in that context, but never Senna


But did you hear of Fangio being touted as the best ever before he retired, or Clark before he died? Were you even there?

Senna, love him or hate him, was a true sporting superstar, a man who galvanised opinion - during his lifetime - like no other in the sport of F1 I have seen before, and only Michael Schumacher since.

#32 alfista

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 15:02

Rosbergs, Villeneuves and Hills are exemptions. Fittipaldis, Laudas, Stewarts, Mansells, Prosts and Piquets are much common species. There's absolutely no guarantee Bruno would join the former ones if Ayrton was living.

#33 fetel

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 15:06

how many times prior to 5/1/1994 have you heard people talking about AS as the greatest ever

I never heard that. I heard plenty of Clark and Fangio in that context, but never Senna


:up:

#34 Levike

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 15:08

:up:


Just go to a library and find out yourself the truth.

#35 Patriot

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 15:19

But did you hear of Fangio being touted as the best ever before he retired, or Clark before he died? Were you even there?

Senna, love him or hate him, was a true sporting superstar, a man who galvanised opinion - during his lifetime - like no other in the sport of F1 I have seen before, and only Michael Schumacher since.



Back in 1968 I was 39, I was amateur racer at the time of Clark's death, and the mutual feeling after his death was that nobody could really understand what happened. All of a sudden we felt so vunerable. If it happened to the best, than it can happen to any of us.

#36 Burai

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 15:26

You mean those that would be at most 15 years old now? :stoned:


Yes. 15 isn't exactly young in motor racing terms is it. That's two years away from an F1 test!

If Ayrton had his own kids do you think he'd really be pushing his sister's kid with the same vigour?

#37 MARDRU

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 15:31

well I am not tarans advocte, but

how many times prior to 5/1/1994 have you heard people talking about AS as the greatest ever

I never heard that. I heard plenty of Clark and Fangio in that context, but never Senna


Yes, even Fangio hinself said so. Look for older Autosprints or Autosport. In fact even before he was in F1 he had a completely dif treatment. He was so impressive in his pre F1 career, it was obvious for everyone. See his interview BEFORE he signed his first contract in F1 about his options.



#38 Group B

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 15:55

I agree the name would not have the same resonance it has now.

As said previously, Senna was a schmuck. He had all the nasty tricks of Schumacher (in fact, Schumacher was the result of Senna) and his death has largely erased his bad behaviour from the collective memory in a way a normal career never would. In addition, his career would have slowly stalled in the face of Schumacher.

People often remember the final days of a star and not so much his glory days (which is why it is important to know when to quit).

If Senna hadn't died, he would be seen as a Piquet or a Prost. An excellent driver in his day with a couple of titles to show for it.

And someone with his same name would generate attention similar to Nelson Piquet jr. and Nicholas Prost but hardly enough to set the world aflame.....

:up:

#39 fetel

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 15:56

Just go to a library and find out yourself the truth.


Show me the evidence.

:wave:



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#40 Group B

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 15:58

well I am not tarans advocte, but

how many times prior to 5/1/1994 have you heard people talking about AS as the greatest ever

I never heard that. I heard plenty of Clark and Fangio in that context, but never Senna

Indeed. Senna was a wonderful talent; perhaps the greatest, perhaps not, but undoubtedly his star has been made brighter by his early, dramatic death. Better, as they say, to burn out than fade away.

#41 MARDRU

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 16:04

Indeed. Senna was a wonderful talent; perhaps the greatest, perhaps not, but undoubtedly his star has been made brighter by his early, dramatic death. Better, as they say, to burn out than fade away.


Group B is that you?? :)

Seriuoslly tough, i think Ayrton´s numbers, had he lived and won some more 3-5 titles, would agregate him this huge amount of fans who does not care about HOW he could win that much. People who think MS´s titles in Ferrari were more important than his driving in 1997 (for example). Add to that that he would have driven for Ferrari.

So, in other words, i think his death didn´t make him brigther as a driver, quite the oposite.

#42 Arska

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 16:11

Yes. 15 isn't exactly young in motor racing terms is it. That's two years away from an F1 test!

If Ayrton had his own kids do you think he'd really be pushing his sister's kid with the same vigour?


Like someone already said, Bruno probably wouldn't have stopped karting if Ayrton hadn't died. Seeing as he's now signed up in F1, surely it's a reasonable assumption to make that in the Ayrton-alive scenario Bruno would have been joining F1 some years earlier. Do you seriously think Ayrton wouldn't give him any help to reach F1, even if he had kids that would've been at most 11-12 years old at that time? I don't.


#43 craftverk

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 16:15

Group B is that you?? :)

Seriuoslly tough, i think Ayrton´s numbers, had he lived and won some more 3-5 titles, would agregate him this huge amount of fans who does not care about HOW he could win that much. People who think MS´s titles in Ferrari were more important than his driving in 1997 (for example). Add to that that he would have driven for Ferrari.

So, in other words, i think his death didn´t make him brigther as a driver, quite the oposite.

And who says he would've won that many more titles? It's not worth speculating.

Well hey, at least Schumacher didn't win the title in 1997, unlike Senna who won the title despite dilberately crashing into Prost. But no one remembers Senna for that do they?

His death DID add fame to him and in alot of ways immortalised him, you cannot deny that, sorry. I typed Senna in youtube, and the first suggestion that came up was "crash".

#44 George Costanza

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 16:45

Michael Schumacher certainly wouldn't have 7 Championships or won 91 times if Ayrton Senna were still here... We all know this.

#45 screamingV16

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 16:53

well I am not tarans advocte, but

how many times prior to 5/1/1994 have you heard people talking about AS as the greatest ever

I never heard that. I heard plenty of Clark and Fangio in that context, but never Senna


By who do you mean people, if you mean commentators, the press etc they were starting to make comments about him being maybe one greatest ever prior to his death. I agree death often builds legends, but I think it's slightly unfair to claim Senna was just viewed as another driver prior to his death and that his status nowadays is purely earned by him dying.

A couple to hand...

From Sporting World 1993 F1 Preview magazine, page 44, "The greatest natural talent competing in Formula 1 now, or perhaps at anytime."

From Autosport 1993 British GP Preview, page 15, "Without doubt Ayrton Senna is the best racing driver in the world, and while pundits argue whether he is the greatest of all time, he contents himself to produce miracles with the outclassed McLaren-Ford."

From BBC F1 1994 Preview magazine, Murray Walker, page 13 "Senna may well be the best, the deepest-thinking, the most determined and the most complete driver of all time..."

Edited by screamingV16, 27 January 2010 - 18:00.


#46 Arska

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 16:54

Well hey, at least Schumacher didn't win the title in 1997, unlike Senna who won the title despite dilberately crashing into Prost. But no one remembers Senna for that do they?


The title-deciding crash that people actually don't seem to (or want to) remember is Prost's on Senna in -89, not the one in -90.


#47 Sausage

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 16:58

Let truth be known on the great man that is Senna

Let my fellow German men know the truth. I write this, a short as possible pamphlet on history and how we came to this point.

Ayrton Senna won the 94, 95, 96, 97 WDC's wich left Michael Schumacher with nothing whatsoever, wich caused a popular movement in Germany to rise and take control of the country in the 98' elections. After 2 years of feuding and Senna beating Schumacher again in 98 and 99 our country finally declared war on Brazil.

Quickly the aliances all fell into place, with Germany allieing itself to Finland, France, Italy, Spain and half of Africa. While Brazil found friends in England, Belgium, commonwealth countries and the other half of Africa. The battle started with an atlantic and espionage war, all trying to prevent each of the powers to ship the F1 cars to races. The results of these were favourable for Germany wich allowed Schumacher to finally take his first title in 2000 with Senna only having been able to participate in half the races. For Brazil this was the final straw in international relations and with theire and theire allies withdrawal from the UN, the body effectively ceased to exist.

Nuclear warfare began. Brazil first launched multiple hydrogen bombs from England on intercontinental missiles towards France and Germany's major city's, who in turn responded by depopulating London via biological dirty bombs. Our u-boots also devastated most of Brazil. F1 was going on still but only 2 teams were left at this point. The very dirty war continued from day to day, costing millions of lives.

At the height of the conflict 5 years later Bruno Senna was kidnapped by German agents in a way to presure Senna in leaving the sport. Senna complied, enraging Brazil who exiled his family and officially declared a one-sided ceasefire. Schumacher went on to win 7 WDC in the end, never once admitting he only won because Senna wasn't there.

At this moment nobody knows exactly where Senna is. Only that once in a while there are reports of a bewildered pair of Brazilian men, one young one old, at various local pre-war kart tracks around the world, asking every male around if theire name is Schumacher and claiming that the younger of the two will beat him in a head to head race.

I hope I gave you most of what you should know and a reason why you should resist! Please spread these words to whoever you know to be on the good side. Long live F1! Long live Senna!


[Mein Herr. This here is a copy of the pamphlet wich has been circling around among the hatefull Senna fans. The author of it was executed yesterday during a raid on a Senna-fanboy hideout.]

#48 craftverk

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 18:23

The title-deciding crash that people actually don't seem to (or want to) remember is Prost's on Senna in -89, not the one in -90.

What?

Edited by craftverk, 27 January 2010 - 18:39.


#49 Arska

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 18:28

What?


What what?


#50 screamingV16

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 18:35

A bit dated don't you think?


Perhaps you need to read it again. They were examples of Senna being considered an all time great prior to his death, bit hard to find anything after 1994 with that perspective!