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Jordan & B.A.R almost used Honda v12s in 2000


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#1 Spa One

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 06:49


Can anyone provide me with any insight into what inspired this and why they axed the plan?



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#2 Victor_RO

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 07:47

Basically the FIA outlawed anything with more than 10 cylinders when Toyota also announced plans for a V12, and that was that.

#3 Spa One

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 10:39

Basically the FIA outlawed anything with more than 10 cylinders when Toyota also announced plans for a V12, and that was that.


What was the reason given?





#4 Clatter

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 10:44

What was the reason given?


Cost.

#5 potmotr

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 11:05

Such a shame, having V8s, V10s and V12s was awesome.



#6 Fortymark

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 11:07

Cost.


Or that Ferrari didn´t like that anybody else had a V12
when they were using a V10.


#7 wingwalker

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 11:13

Cost.


Fast forward to 2005 when FIA announces that all the teams have to design V8's as V10's are too fast and dangerous. With the exception of Toro Rosso, they're cool and safe enough with a rev limited V10. Less than year later: engine freeze and rev limit go in, so no one will 'waste' money on further development of their newly developed V8's.

Sense. This story makes none.

#8 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 11:17

Sense. This story makes none.

The V8s all have the same COG, angle, etc whilst the rev limited V10s would all be different.

The rev limited former is more even than the latter, following FIA semi spec series policy. :)

Preferably rotaries :up: and V16s and jet turbine :up: and any type of combustion engine etc would all be allowed and unrestricted than some arbitrary V8 or V10 rule of course. :down:

So only a few tens of seasons before you could have 2.5 supercharged or 4.5 L N/A!!! :eek:

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 30 January 2010 - 11:19.


#9 Risil

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 11:41

Max and Bernie were trying to recreate the 1970s consensus on Cosworth engines, that gave the garagistes the union power to all the Dynamic Duo to take on the FIA. Nothing wrecks those plans quicker than a series of independent engine suppliers, who often answer to boardrooms across Europe and Japan. The logical extension of the everyone-has-engines-of-the-same-configuation-and-dimensions was his standard Cosworth engine that manufacturers could badge individually.

#10 Clatter

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 13:17

Fast forward to 2005 when FIA announces that all the teams have to design V8's as V10's are too fast and dangerous. With the exception of Toro Rosso, they're cool and safe enough with a rev limited V10. Less than year later: engine freeze and rev limit go in, so no one will 'waste' money on further development of their newly developed V8's.

Sense. This story makes none.


Don't forget the redesigns of the V10's to last the weekend/multi-races. Plus Mac's KERs that was banned on cost grounds, but as soon as MM wanted to appear green it was another story.



#11 Ali_G

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 14:02

Basically the FIA outlawed anything with more than 10 cylinders when Toyota also announced plans for a V12, and that was that.


Toyota was originally supposed to enter for the 2001 season but was delayed till 2002 because of the V12 banning.

Do you know exactly when the ban came in. I think it may have been during the 2000 season which wouldn't have stopped Honda from running a V12 at the start of the 2000 season.

#12 glorius&victorius

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 20:59

now with frozen engines cant v10 and v12s not be run again in cost saving mode?

#13 Clatter

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 22:45

now with frozen engines cant v10 and v12s not be run again in cost saving mode?


What about the development costs?

#14 pingu666

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 03:38

im not sure if u could still run a rev limited or air resctricted v10, i dont think you can :\

#15 Lazarus II

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 04:07

im not sure if u could still run a rev limited or air resctricted v10, i dont think you can :\

From the FIA Tech regulations:

5.1.5 All engines must have 8 cylinders arranged in a 90º “V” configuration and the normal section of each
cylinder must be circular.

:down: complete crap IMO. I loved the days of run-what-you-brung. You can't even run a 60º, or 75º... what a bunch of crap.

Edited by Lazarus II, 31 January 2010 - 04:12.


#16 pingu666

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 05:04

best bit about lemans :)

#17 Victor_RO

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:17

From the FIA Tech regulations:

:down: complete crap IMO. I loved the days of run-what-you-brung. You can't even run a 60º, or 75º... what a bunch of crap.


Also in the 1980s there were rumours of experimental oval-piston turbo engines hitting 2000bhp on the dyno.

#18 FigJam

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:27

I remember the Honda V12 in the 1991/92 McLaren sounded sweet, as did the Ferrari's of the same time. Shame Honda lost interest after 1991 and stopped development on the V12 and took off completely.

The V10 in the back of the BAR in 2000 was a top engine, reliable and powerful, it was a good way for Honda to return. Then they seemingly lost the plot after that and really never got it together. Not like the Honda of the 80's and early 90's anyway. :well:

#19 Lennat

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:30

Or that Ferrari didn´t like that anybody else had a V12
when they were using a V10.


I'm almost sure that I did read somewhere in 1999 that Ferrari were considering switching back to V12:s as well, and that is was likely to happen.

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#20 Lennat

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:40

For those with Autosport premium: http://www.autosport...ort.php/id/6450

I assume it would not be allowed to quote premium content here, but it basically says that they (Ferrari) are considering V12:s if further tests proves favorable, and then the obvious facts that one would get more power but pay for it with a larger/heavier engine etcetera... The article is from 1999.

Edited by Lennat, 31 January 2010 - 08:40.


#21 J. Edlund

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 12:40

What was the reason given?


It would have been expensive to once again use V12 engines.

If V12 engines would have been allowed all F1 engine manufacturers would be forced do some sort of evaluation regarding the advantages/disadvantages of using a V12 instead of a V10. I know Cosworth did test a V12 based on a V10 engine where the cylinder capacity was decreased to match that of a V12; but they didn't found an advantage in terms of power output.
However, if an advantage can be found in having a V12, then they probably need to develop two engines in parallel. The new V12, and an evolution of the current V10 in case the V12 doens't work out.

#22 jhmcgregor

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 09:48

Also in the 1980s there were rumours of experimental oval-piston turbo engines hitting 2000bhp on the dyno.


http://home.people.n...AutoTechBRV.pdf

And don't forget the Bishop rotary valved engine developed by Ilmor (Mercedes) for McLaren, but banned shortly before it was ready to race

#23 Patriot

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 09:57

wasnt Lamborghini planning something crazy like V16 :eek: somwhere around fall of 1993

but gave up

#24 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 10:15

Or that Ferrari didn´t like that anybody else had a V12
when they were using a V10.



Ferrari were also developing a V12 at the time, just as BMW were. Most of the large manufacturers were looking into V12:s when FIA decided to ban anything but V10 from F1. Which later was a ban on anything but V8:s from F1.

Edited by LuckyStrike1, 02 February 2010 - 10:16.