Jump to content


Photo

Shell F1 Fuel


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 02 February 2010 - 17:07

THe two days of very first testing so far showed us the beginning of the great season. It looks like teams a re yet to run in their max paces.

So far I see Ferrari and Sauber doing better than the other teams. In all threads there are points on Diffuser(s) solutions observed by posters.

But there is also a common element of these two teams, that is Ferrari plus Shell. (if Sauber is running Shell fuel as well).

It kinda tells me that working on chassis, aero, mechanical side of engine, suspension, electric etc does not make the performance difference any more, now does it?

Fuel technology is now becoming the far more important element, as the rest is almost evenly matched by the teams... Am I talking none sense?

Advertisement

#2 primer

primer
  • Member

  • 6,664 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 02 February 2010 - 17:21

Fuel technology is now becoming the far more important element, as the rest is almost evenly matched by the teams... Am I talking none sense?


Thereabouts.

#3 morals

morals
  • Member

  • 150 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 02 February 2010 - 17:23

Well, Toro Rosso are also running Ferrari+shell, so I guess the chasis still counts a bit ;)

#4 BullHead

BullHead
  • Member

  • 7,066 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 02 February 2010 - 17:57

But fuel is a factor, and possibly a bigger one now.

#5 aeffle

aeffle
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 02 February 2010 - 18:01

I don't believe that there are any remarkable differences when it comes to fuel or lubricants. I think the 'importance of petro technology' is mainly a PR thing. Especially Ferrari and Shell are obviously doing a good job there. ;)

#6 Nustang70

Nustang70
  • Member

  • 2,411 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 02 February 2010 - 18:17

I don't believe that there are any remarkable differences when it comes to fuel or lubricants. I think the 'importance of petro technology' is mainly a PR thing. Especially Ferrari and Shell are obviously doing a good job there.;)



I could be wrong, but I thought all F1 teams used a standardized fuel regulated by the FIA. Technical partnerships with companies like Shell, Mobil, Elf, etc. were for lubricants only.

#7 santori

santori
  • Member

  • 3,991 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 02 February 2010 - 18:27

From Tomorrownewsf1

The other secret lies in the fuel consumption. Ferrari, with the assistance of Shell, has well and truly solved its problems in this area. But at what price? There's talk of many tens of millions of Euros for this update, charged to the Dutch petrol company.

#8 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,683 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 February 2010 - 19:08

THe two days of very first testing so far showed us the beginning of the great season. It looks like teams a re yet to run in their max paces.

So far I see Ferrari and Sauber doing better than the other teams. In all threads there are points on Diffuser(s) solutions observed by posters.

But there is also a common element of these two teams, that is Ferrari plus Shell. (if Sauber is running Shell fuel as well).

It kinda tells me that working on chassis, aero, mechanical side of engine, suspension, electric etc does not make the performance difference any more, now does it?

Fuel technology is now becoming the far more important element, as the rest is almost evenly matched by the teams... Am I talking none sense?


Fuel technology is nothing new.

#9 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,650 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 02 February 2010 - 19:29

I could be wrong, but I thought all F1 teams used a standardized fuel regulated by the FIA. Technical partnerships with companies like Shell, Mobil, Elf, etc. were for lubricants only.

Its not 100% standardized. Just has very tight regulations as to what you can and cant use. There's still area for some development.

#10 The Oracle

The Oracle
  • Member

  • 104 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 02 February 2010 - 22:39

As far as I was aware F1 fuel is the same as you get when you fill up at your local garage. I remeber a story from a while back when teams and fuel suppliers developed their products, when Mansell rejoined Williams he asked the Elf technicians how their fuel was deveolping and they looked at him rather strangly. Apparently during his time at Ferrari Agip spent £££££ developing a more potent fuel over the course of a season, Elf just didn't bother.

Fast forward a few seasons and teams are now asked to supply a "sample" of the fuel they are to use for the season to the FIA, which could be checked at any time during a race weekend to ensure it conforms, Jaguar for one I believe were disqualified for running a fuel that didn't match the FIA sample it supplied.

To the best of my knowledge Ferrari use Shell fuel as you would buy at the pumps, ditto the Esso used by Toyota, Petronas/Petrobras/Mobil I couldn't comment but presume they supply their respective pump fuel.

#11 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,683 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 February 2010 - 22:43

As far as I was aware F1 fuel is the same as you get when you fill up at your local garage. I remeber a story from a while back when teams and fuel suppliers developed their products, when Mansell rejoined Williams he asked the Elf technicians how their fuel was deveolping and they looked at him rather strangly. Apparently during his time at Ferrari Agip spent £££££ developing a more potent fuel over the course of a season, Elf just didn't bother.

Fast forward a few seasons and teams are now asked to supply a "sample" of the fuel they are to use for the season to the FIA, which could be checked at any time during a race weekend to ensure it conforms, Jaguar for one I believe were disqualified for running a fuel that didn't match the FIA sample it supplied.

To the best of my knowledge Ferrari use Shell fuel as you would buy at the pumps, ditto the Esso used by Toyota, Petronas/Petrobras/Mobil I couldn't comment but presume they supply their respective pump fuel.


Your knowledge is wrong. The basic fuel is close to standard pump fuel, but not exactly the same, and the chemists can mess with it to obtain more bang.

#12 MichaelPM

MichaelPM
  • Member

  • 2,594 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 02 February 2010 - 22:52

I seem to recall during the late Ferrari/Schumacher days an article suggesting that Shell have created a fuel that is much lighter in weight especially for Ferrari.
No doubt such an avenue would be taken for this years regulations.

#13 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 02 February 2010 - 22:56

Some in the F1 tech forum talked about the weight of fuel being uneven between the suppliers. F1 fuel weighs between normal pomp fuel on the street and kerosine. So is there any hints in this?

Chemicals do not need much srange substances to diversify its performance? At the end of the day it is the fossil fuel which contains most energy per weight. (I mean not including nuclear and so on...)

#14 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 9,533 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 02 February 2010 - 23:04

Fuel technology is seriously underestimated in F1. Shell is in fact, NOT a sponsor of Ferrari, but a technical partner. They get the branding on the car (worth millions £££££) in exchange for all the fuel/lub technology. This technology directly influences for example, the cooling on the car, which in turn dictates the packaging.

#15 Sophie

Sophie
  • Member

  • 193 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 02 February 2010 - 23:11

So who do Mclaren and others get their fuel from?

#16 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,683 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 February 2010 - 23:14

So who do Mclaren and others get their fuel from?


Mac use Mobil 1.

http://www.mclaren.c...eteam/mobil.php

#17 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 02 February 2010 - 23:52

Fuel technology is seriously underestimated in F1. Shell is in fact, NOT a sponsor of Ferrari, but a technical partner. They get the branding on the car (worth millions £££££) in exchange for all the fuel/lub technology. This technology directly influences for example, the cooling on the car, which in turn dictates the packaging.



So what is that the fuel Shell is so special in 2010? Have they made a new light but more energy containing fuel that burns in lower temp?

#18 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,683 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 February 2010 - 23:54

So what is that the fuel Shell is so special in 2010? Have they made a new light but more energy containing fuel that burns in lower temp?


Think that's what the call a secret.

#19 Sophie

Sophie
  • Member

  • 193 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 02 February 2010 - 23:58

ok so with all this greener/cheaper f1 stuff going on. Why could they not produce 1 fuel for all, thats the most eco friendly? More Efficent

Advertisement

#20 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,683 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 03 February 2010 - 00:05

ok so with all this greener/cheaper f1 stuff going on. Why could they not produce 1 fuel for all, thats the most eco friendly? More Efficent


The fuel is already damned efficent, and they are always trying to improve it.

#21 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 9,533 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 03 February 2010 - 00:07

So what is that the fuel Shell is so special in 2010? Have they made a new light but more energy containing fuel that burns in lower temp?


No idea, but again, these suppliers are not just fuel suppliers, but fuel AND lubricant suppliers - there is a lot to be gained in the oil technologies. Huge advances in engine reliability and cooling.

#22 slideways

slideways
  • Member

  • 3,312 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 03 February 2010 - 00:17

Well that is a big angle Branson is taking, he has been promoting a new 100% eco fuel and apparently the team will run it next year.

One of the big things the fuel partners will be looking at this year is thermal behaviour. As you know when fuel heats it expands to fill more volume, and becomes less efficient. In the past years they could reset the temperatures of the fuel system every stop when they took on a new tank of chilled petrol. Now the fuel system will be heating up for the entire race, and as Rinehart said this flows on to affect temperatures across the board.

They are not allowed to actively cool the tank but I have a feeling there will be some creativity in how the fuel system is designed (maybe some air cooling from the new engine cover inlets we're seeing).

#23 Talryyn

Talryyn
  • Member

  • 839 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 February 2010 - 00:29

Not like it used to be in the 80's when the fuel companies had different formulations depending on the track, not to mention that was stuff you did not dare spill on yourself for fear of cancer later on (or some other weird dangerous side effects).

Even in karting there was some trick stuff you could run mixed with your fuel that would fool the fuel checkers, not sure how they check the fuel today - hopefully they catch the illegal stuff now. F1 for sure it is caught when the test the fuel.

Today's fuel is all derived from pump gas is it not? At least in the octane level, to be honest I have not kept current with the fuel regs. I do know the fuel is not the same dangerous magic that it was in the 80's that is for sure.

#24 slideways

slideways
  • Member

  • 3,312 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 03 February 2010 - 00:50

19.3 Properties :
The only fuel permitted is petrol having the following characteristics :
Property Units Min Max Test Method
(RON+MON)/2 87.0 ASTM D 2699/D 2700
Oxygen wt% 3.7 Elemental Analysis
Nitrogen mg/kg 500 ASTM D 4629
Benzene wt% 1.0 GC-MS
RVP kPa 45 60(1) EN13016-1
Lead g/l 0.005 ASTM D 3237
Oxidation Stability minutes 360 ASTM D 525
Sulphur mg/kg 10 EN ISO 20846
Electrical conductivity pS/m 200 ASTM D 2624
Final Boiling Point oC 210 ISO 3405
Distillation Residue %v/v 2.0 ISO 3405
19.4.4 A minimum of 5.75% (m/m) of the fuel must comprise bio-components.
19.4.5 Initially the bio-components are restricted to oxygenates. However, hydrocarbons and oxygenates (lying
outside the 19.4.3 definition) or mixtures thereof, which have been produced from biomass, will be included
into Formula One fuel, provided that a suitable analytical procedure is available to verify their biological
origin. Their use in F1 fuel will be dependent on evidence indicating that the supplier is genuinely
developing these compounds for use in commercial fuels.


I am no chemist but it would seem as long as Shell and co. can prove they have created these chains from bio mass and they are going into commercial fuels they have quite a bit of flexibility.

#25 BullHead

BullHead
  • Member

  • 7,066 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 03 February 2010 - 01:03

And there's the thing, not a significant advantage to be had, but in F1 today, subtlety is key IMO....

#26 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 03 February 2010 - 09:39

5.75% of something unknown as long as it is bio is a huge possibility isn't it?


It does sounds like a gold mine for Ferrari to pay extra o top of standard F1 Shell fuel. I cannot imagine that all Ferrari teams get automatically the same magic fuel. Like Toro Rosso, for the purpose of promotion and competition.


VirginRacig for sure will be mixing the magic tonic to their own fuel...?

Edited by One, 03 February 2010 - 09:40.