54 replies to this topic

[barrykin]

RM Auctions is offering a 1963 Ferrari 250 GTO via private treaty sale. A price is not listed of course, but considering there were rumors that a GTO traded last year for $25 million, one must gotta wonder what this will bring even in this economy.

http://www.sportscar...le-rm-auctions/

[AllTwelve]

RM Auctions is offering a 1963 Ferrari 250 GTO via private treaty sale. A price is not listed of course, but considering there were rumors that a GTO traded last year for $25 million, one must gotta wonder what this will bring even in this economy.

http://www.sportscar...le-rm-auctions/

This car's nose (in the first post url) looks strange to me, and the tail looks more like a '64 than a '63. The nose looks like a cross between a '63 and a '64. The second pict is of an original '64. See the difference? This car offered is unusual, speculatory, and needs some explanation.

[Jack-the-Lad]

The car is a series 1 re-bodied (purportedly by the factory) as a series 2, but still looks like something of a hybrid. The pure series 1 cars have a charisma (at least to me) that was lost in the second ('64) series. We'll never know the selling price, but my prediction would be $17M.

[etceterini.com]

Yes you are correct about the strange nose etc. I much prefer the series 1 body style!!

[RogerFrench]

Chacun a son gout. I love the '64 body, and remember seeing one in Douglas, IOM, outside the big hotel on the prom, during the week of the Manx Grand Prix.
There was a rumour that Mr Surtees was in town, but I really don't know the truth of that, nor have I ever checked dates to see if that were feasible.

[David McKinney]

I've grown to love the 64 almost as much as the 63, but the car on offer doesn't look right for either

I won't be putting in an offer

[Paul Parker]

From memory these 'LM' style bodies came in two versions. In this case the car has the longer roofline which has a much deeper rear window inset than for instance 5575GT which had the shorter roofline in period. David Piper told me in 2006 that these LM bodies were no better aerodynamically than the orginal 62/63 cars.

The front of the car now looks like it has GTB genes. According to records it was hillclimbed by Guido Fossati in 1963 and was rebodied in December 1963. In 1964 it was raced by Jean Guichet/Carlo Facetti in the '64 Targa Florio (Scuderia st. Ambroeus) and driven to 2nd place in the Spa 500km by Guichet where it was entered by Filipinetti. I wont detail the rest of its lower key race history except to say that it was completely rebuilt in America in 1967 and in 2004 was the property of Yoshiho Matsuda.

[kayemod]

Yes you are correct about the strange nose etc. I much prefer the series 1 body style!!

Yes, and it's always been the series 1 style cars that fetch the really big money, this one is a bit of a mongrel, even among the less desirable later cars. I'm with David, I won't be making an offer either, I'll just keep sending begging letters to Nick Mason.

[Arjan de Roos]

Basically like the 1962 version, the 64 style GTO's are all different. Hand made on one side, but also experimental on the other side. Some have/had an air intake in the engine hood, others just a bulge. Some had a long roof, others a short (250 LM style) one, some with a splitter.
4675GT started life as a 1962 bodied GTO and was converted later on. Others like 5571, 5573 and 5575 were born as a '64. This example was carefully maintained at the Matsuda collection.

[Jean L]

62/63 GTO body is Scaglietti style and 64 pure Pininfarina (short nose as always),very opposit vision.
The actual nose of 4675GT (Drogo style) need to be redone to Pininfarina 64 specification.

[hipperson]

This is ,IMO, the archetype shape for a 64GTO.
Here Jack Le Fort in 3413GT up against me (GT40/1005)** in circa 1972 at a CUAC sprint at Duxford. Lovely chap Jack...always had 2 immaculately kitted out mechanics.
I used to drive there on the road car all filthy.....








This car was sold for £7 million in year 2000 to one of the Microsoft guys who has a huge collection.



** And the winner was.........

[Giraffe]

You should do your fine pics justice, Hipperson. Allow me to crop....


By giraffe138 at 2010-02-03


By giraffe138 at 2010-02-03

[hipperson]

That's better thanks.......amazing how well old polaroids hold up

[hipperson]

This where the Le Fort GTO resides.....Greg Whitten the owner.

The car appears to be in good company ?

http://www.flickr.co...i...w=all&s=int

[Giraffe]

That's better thanks.......amazing how well old polaroids hold up

I've heard you're not doing too bad at all for your age, sir.....

[hipperson]

This where the Le Fort GTO resides.....Greg Whitten the owner.

The car appears to be in good company ?

http://www.flickr.co...i...w=all&s=int

[hipperson]

And this his garage.....good taste?

http://www.pbase.com...0050319_whitten

[hipperson]

QUOTE (hipperson @ Feb 3 2010, 11:39)
That's better thanks.......amazing how well old polaroids hold up


I've heard you're not doing too bad at all for your age, sir.....



Young wife wot does it..........

[Giraffe]

Now don't get me wrong, I've always considered the 250GTO in all it's guises to be a wonderful car with huge charisma and appeal, and it helps that so few were made, but I've never understood the stratospheric prices attached to it. It's become a bit of a Stradivarius of cars, but it wasn't always so. If there were only 30 or 40 E-Types, would they be valued similarily?
Not many years ago you could have purchased a 250 GTO for very little money, and Nick Mason was thought a fool to part with £30K for his at the time.
It doesn't belittle the car in my eyes, but I do think it was the motoring marketing coup of the century, tailor-made to take advantage of the booming markets of the 80's, and remarkably it's stuck.

[Alan Cox]

The ex-Le Fort car (3413), when owned (and raced with some panache) by Lindsay Owen Jones



The JCB rebodied 1963 TT-winner (4399) driven here by Frank Sytner at the first Goodwood Festival of Speed

[Jack-the-Lad]

QUOTE (hipperson @ Feb 3 2010, 11:39)




Young wife wot does it..........

Does what, precisely?

[kayemod]

Does what, precisely?

Ah, a Gentleman never tells...

[Peter Morley]

Now don't get me wrong, I've always considered the 250GTO in all it's guises to be a wonderful car with huge charisma and appeal, and it helps that so few were made, but I've never understood the stratospheric prices attached to it. It's become a bit of a Stradivarius of cars, but it wasn't always so. If there were only 30 or 40 E-Types, would they be valued similarily?
Not many years ago you could have purchased a 250 GTO for very little money, and Nick Mason was thought a fool to part with £30K for his at the time.
It doesn't belittle the car in my eyes, but I do think it was the motoring marketing coup of the century, tailor-made to take advantage of the booming markets of the 80's, and remarkably it's stuck.

I think the Stradivarius is somewhat more overinflated, with a mere 650 or so out of the 1100 made still being around...
And GTOs are bargains compared to paintings (which have even less intrinsic value!).

You say not many years ago GTOs were very little money - when Nick Mason bought his it was only 16 years old and in 1978 you could have bought a couple of reasonable houses for what he paid.
They started to shoot up in the early 80s and around 1985 they reached a million dollars.
You can't say that wasn't many years ago, they have been astronomical for the last two thirds of their lives.

And they were extremely expensive when they were new - 4 or 5 times the price of an AC Cobra and a Cobra wasn't a cheap car (to buy at least!).
If you'd bought a GTO instead of a house in the early 1970s you'd be laughing now but that was the only time they were ever 'cheap' and very few people in Britain could afford to buy a house at that time.

But I do agree there are other cars that are just as worthy (and plenty that are better looking than a 64 GTO) which is why there are plenty of cars that quietly make over half the price of a GTO, but not many that exceed the price.

[Peter Morley]

The JCB rebodied 1963 TT-winner (4399) driven here by Frank Sytner at the first Goodwood Festival of Speed

That doesn't look like a JCB to me!
Not as pretty as the proper 63 GTO.

Presumably someone will ask is this the 64 GTO or the 08 GTO?

[Michael_Delaney]

I think the Stradivarius is somewhat more overinflated, with a mere 650 or so out of the 1100 made still being around...
And GTOs are bargains compared to paintings (which have even less intrinsic value!).

You say not many years ago GTOs were very little money - when Nick Mason bought his it was only 16 years old and in 1978 you could have bought a couple of reasonable houses for what he paid.
They started to shoot up in the early 80s and around 1985 they reached a million dollars.
You can't say that wasn't many years ago, they have been astronomical for the last two thirds of their lives.

And they were extremely expensive when they were new - 4 or 5 times the price of an AC Cobra and a Cobra wasn't a cheap car (to buy at least!).
If you'd bought a GTO instead of a house in the early 1970s you'd be laughing now but that was the only time they were ever 'cheap' and very few people in Britain could afford to buy a house at that time.

But I do agree there are other cars that are just as worthy (and plenty that are better looking than a 64 GTO) which is why there are plenty of cars that quietly make over half the price of a GTO, but not many that exceed the price.

I know a Gentleman who owns a 250 GTO Series I since more than 30 years and had paid the amount of a Mercedes 450SL 6,9 for it! He still owns it. Nice deposit......

MD

[Alan Cox]

That doesn't look like a JCB to me!

Well spotted, Peter. Perhaps I should have written "The JCB-owned rebodied 1963 TT-winner". I, too, am sure it wasn't rebodied at Rocester alongside the earth-movers.

PS I applaud your post on the relative value of a GTO. Very concisely put.

[Peter Morley]

Well spotted, Peter. Perhaps I should have written "The JCB-owned rebodied 1963 TT-winner". I, too, am sure it wasn't rebodied at Rocester alongside the earth-movers.

PS I applaud your post on the relative value of a GTO. Very concisely put.

Or the worlds most expensive JCB!

Not like me to be concise about anything, usually a lengthy ramble...

I bet Michael's friend is really happy he didn't buy the Mercedes instead of the GTO, the Merc's presumably worth about as much as a repro GTO Borrani wheel these days!

[Michael_Delaney]

I bet Michael's friend is really happy he didn't buy the Mercedes instead of the GTO, the Merc's presumably worth about as much as a repro GTO Borrani wheel these days!

Hah - thats a good one! Whatever, I believe that the GTO is totally overpriced this days. But - not my money

MD

Edited by Michael_Delaney, 04 February 2010 - 07:22.

[juicy sushi]

The GTO's may be over priced, but I do love how they look (especially the Series 2 versions), and I certainly would put in a bid if I had the cash. But I don't. To which, as I mentioned in another thread, I'm willing to part with my soul and various internal organs if there are any interested parties...

[terry mcgrath]

Has any come across a Canadian called Ted Roebotham (not quite sure about the spelling). He had 250SWB and the Drogo bodied 250 GTO.
I would be very interested to know the exact spelling and which ferraris he had
terry

[Paul Parker]

I think the Stradivarius is somewhat more overinflated, with a mere 650 or so out of the 1100 made still being around...
And GTOs are bargains compared to paintings (which have even less intrinsic value!).

You say not many years ago GTOs were very little money - when Nick Mason bought his it was only 16 years old and in 1978 you could have bought a couple of reasonable houses for what he paid.
They started to shoot up in the early 80s and around 1985 they reached a million dollars.
You can't say that wasn't many years ago, they have been astronomical for the last two thirds of their lives.

And they were extremely expensive when they were new - 4 or 5 times the price of an AC Cobra and a Cobra wasn't a cheap car (to buy at least!).
If you'd bought a GTO instead of a house in the early 1970s you'd be laughing now but that was the only time they were ever 'cheap' and very few people in Britain could afford to buy a house at that time.

But I do agree there are other cars that are just as worthy (and plenty that are better looking than a 64 GTO) which is why there are plenty of cars that quietly make over half the price of a GTO, but not many that exceed the price.

I am fairly sure that the price for a GTO as advertised IIRC in Autosport circa 1965/66 was about £3,500 (cannot remember which one), whilst the two low drag E types CUT 7 and 49 FXN were between £2,500-3,000. Of course these had become obsolete racers by then. A new production Jaguar E type FHC was around £2,300 at this time. These figures are all from memory so I hope I'm not too far out.

[arttidesco]

I am fairly sure that the price for a GTO as advertised IIRC in Autosport circa 1965/66 was about £3,500 (cannot remember which one), whilst the two low drag E types CUT 7 and 49 FXN were between £2,500-3,000. Of course these had become obsolete racers by then. A new production Jaguar E type FHC was around £2,300 at this time. These figures are all from memory so I hope I'm not too far out.

So in 1966 the approximate difference in price between a racing E type and 250GTO was max £1k about the same as my first years wages in 1978/79 and about a third of my second years wages 79/80 :-)

[Cargo]

Am i the only TNF-er who reads newspapers?

Check out this link:

http://www.dailymail...o=feeds-newsxml



£23 million for the Moss car .....

[D-Type]

Well, now that Jonathan McEvoy has been transferred to cover the Olympics there's at least some hope that the Mail might get its motor sport history correct!

[kayemod]

£23 million for the Moss car .....

Apparently "Ex-Moss" adds to the value, but although it was indeed built for him, there's some doubt as to whether he ever drove it, if at all, certainly nothing more than a handful of practice laps. The lack of knowledge among younger Effwun fans whenever something like this crops up in the Mail is astonishing, almost as awful as Racing Comments. In one recent piece on the car the Great Man won his first-ever event in, a BMW 328, some of the readers' comments that followed were almost painfully funny, most along the lines of "He wasn't so great, he was never champion" etc, but I'm sure their heroes like Schumacher M couldn't get anywhere close to 585 events, finished 387, won 216, and it's unlikely that anyone ever will. I know I'm preaching to the converted here, but it's sad to see. A similar comment I remember about some rough game, called I think 'football', went along the lines of "That Stanley Matthews can't have been so great, he never got booked, so he can't have been trying very hard".

[Ted Walker]

I assume the GTO in question is the "Chris Evans car" ??? I hear that the Le Mans winning T R has just been sold . I wonder who to ????

[David McKinney]

I hear that the Le Mans winning T R has just been sold

1958, 1960 or 1961?

[Jean L]

1958.

[W154]

Apparently "Ex-Moss" adds to the value, but although it was indeed built for him, there's some doubt as to whether he ever drove it, if at all, certainly nothing more than a handful of practice laps. The lack of knowledge among younger Effwun fans whenever something like this crops up in the Mail is astonishing, almost as awful as Racing Comments. In one recent piece on the car the Great Man won his first-ever event in, a BMW 328, some of the readers' comments that followed were almost painfully funny, most along the lines of "He wasn't so great, he was never champion" etc, but I'm sure their heroes like Schumacher M couldn't get anywhere close to 585 events, finished 387, won 216, and it's unlikely that anyone ever will. I know I'm preaching to the converted here, but it's sad to see. A similar comment I remember about some rough game, called I think 'football', went along the lines of "That Stanley Matthews can't have been so great, he never got booked, so he can't have been trying very hard".

It's about time Autosport had a general knowledge motor sport test for those who wish to post comments . This would hopefully spare us from the vomit inducing comments about Jim Clarke, Sterling Moss, Graeme Hill, John Manual Fangio etc,etc.

[David McKinney]

Nice thought, W, but hardly fair

We have knowledgeable contributors to all aspects of motoring history, most of whom have special areas of interest. If applicants had to answer questions on topics from 1894 to, say, 2002, on GP racing, lesser single-seater formulae, sportscar and GT racing, American, oval racing, other national racing all over the world and rallying, I doubt if membership would get far into double figures

[kayemod]

If applicants had to answer questions on topics from 1894 to, say, 2002, on GP racing, lesser single-seater formulae, sportscar and GT racing, American, oval racing, other national racing all over the world and rallying, I doubt if membership would get far into double figures

True enough, to some extent at least, but most on TNF have enough self-awareness not to pontificate on subjects about which they know sod all. This is not a quality much in evidence in places like Racing Comments, at least where any historical, i.e. more than five or ten year old, aspects of motor sport are concerned.

[W154]

Point taken DMcK. My comment was aimed, primarily against those on Racing Comments, who waffle on about how great so and so was, how they worshiped, admired and respected such and such to the extent that they haven't got the courtesy, manners or intelligence to spell the drivers name correctly.
And as for those who think Senna was the world's first racing driver or Formula 1 never existed in the 20th century......

Edited by W154, 04 June 2012 - 13:56.

[Peter Morley]

And as for those who think Senna was the world's first racing driver or Formula 1 never existed in the 20th century......

In some ways I think what is now known as Formula 1 didn't exist in the 20th century, or if it did it had another name like chess....

[hipperson]

On values of old.

....a friend Karl Richardson paid £2500 for GTO/3869 in 1964....sold it a year later to David Clarke for £4000.
This made way for his new GT40 #1014 Reg NNO 14C...with discount this cost him £5500.

In 1971 Dad and I made our way North in Mum's Sunbeam Tiger to look at a GTO at I believe it was Brian Classics..it was up for £6200. As soon as we passed Watford Dad was out of his comfort zone and on arrival decreed he was not going to pay that kind of money for a 'wap' car......so we came home.
My sorrow was short lived... a few weeks later we bought GT40/1005.

Edited by hipperson, 04 June 2012 - 20:47.

[David Birchall]

I could not sleep at 4.00am the other night so I started rereading Jesse Pouret's book on the Ferrari 250 GTs and in particular the section on the Tour de France. What an event that was! Makes the Mille Miglia look like a club event. Ferrari 250 GTs won every single TDF! The interesting thing was the amount of body damage they acquired during the event. One GTO finished with no bodywork forward of the windshield, many did not finish due to running into mountains. I wonder how many GTOs and 250 SWBs have their original bodywork?

[Wirra]

... I wonder how many GTOs and 250 SWBs have their original bodywork?

AFAIK #3647 is the only GTO classified as 'unrestored' but I'm unaware if its had running repairs to any its original panels.

Lots on dings and scratches.

[kayemod]

I wonder how many GTOs and 250 SWBs have their original bodywork?

You don't need much more than a chassis plate, and maybe a filler cap or something...

[sabrejet]

On values of old.

....a friend Karl Richardson paid £2500 for GTO/3869 in 1964....sold it a year later to David Clarke for £4000.
This made way for his new GT40 #1014 Reg NNO 14C...with discount this cost him £5500.

In 1971 Dad and I made our way North in Mum's Sunbeam Tiger to look at a GTO at I believe it was Brian Classics..it was up for £6200. As soon as we passed Watford Dad was out of his comfort zone and on arrival decreed he was not going to pay that kind of money for a 'wap' car......so we came home.
My sorrow was short lived... a few weeks later we bought GT40/1005.

I had the great pleasure to speak with Irvine Laidlaw on last year's Tour Britannia about his GTO, 3527GT. I think this is the car you refer to: on the 1962 TDF, with Lucien Bianchi driving and in the lead overall, it collided with a milk truck. Repairs to the car were effected by removing the front end level with the forward axle centre line and it was pressed into action for the final stage at Reims, only to be disqualified (though Anthony Pritchard in his excellent GTO book states that it was classified 7th).

Returning to last year's Tour Britannia, Lord Laidlaw said that during a recent restoration they'd found bits of the truck, still embedded in the car's front end.

On a related thread, I loaned my Pourret 250GT book to a colleague many years ago (in fact I realise now that it was 18 years ago) and have still to get it back...

[Tim Murray]

Ferrari 250 GTs won every single TDF!

Not quite - 250GT/GTOs won every year between 1956 and 1964. Here are the winners according to Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia....ance_Automobile

[Tmeranda]

AFAIK #3647 is the only GTO classified as 'unrestored' but I'm unaware if its had running repairs to any its original panels.

Lots on dings and scratches.

Unrestored, but not orginal. 3 vents were a retrofit.