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Romain Grosjean


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#1601 2ms

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:15

I want to like Grosjean and feel bad for him, but he's ruined a huge number of people's races, cost millions in demolished equipment... He's barely better than 50% on race completion rate. It's just too much. In particular since he doesn't seem to either improve or sufficiently acknowledge the error of his ways.

Also, his in the later years of his 20s, it's not as if he's just some youngster who's still rapidly maturing due to being very young -- he's almost 2 years older than Vettel and roughly same age as Hamilton.

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#1602 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:18

What are the odds of him crashing again? err.. 50%

It doesn't work like that.

#1603 marcoferrari

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:17

You need Grosjean to see how fast the car is. Kimi sure can't do the job in Qualifying.


:up:

#1604 Jimisgod

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:23

I think a lot of people dont want to see a genuinely talented guy throw away a potentially successful F1 career because of one season of stupid and fixable mistakes.


Yeah, but it's looking like Kobayashi is 'throwing away' much greater potential due solely to lack of sponsorship, Sutil 'threw away' his talent following his best year after one dumb incident in a pub, and Toro Rosso 'threw away' the talent of Jamie A. because Marko was on his PMS. All of them were much cleaner and likely as fast as Grosjean.

F1 is cruel like that, but being constantly involved in accidents is a deficiency directly related to racing. With the field so full of drivers wanting a go, there is great variety of drivers out there who have made fewer errors in their whole career than Romain has this season.

The TOTAL on the red end-plates is the only thing keeping Lotus sympathetic to Romain's lack of race-craft.

#1605 Craven Morehead

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:32

But he was making these gross errors of misjudgement/lack of awareness in 2009 too. According to many ex-F1 drivers, these mistakes he makes aren't easily fixable as they are more about his instincts than anything. From James Allen's blog;



I don't hate Grosjean - never met the man, don't know him - but if he continues to make these mistakes and gets another season at the expense of a driver like Kamui then there's something wrong with F1.


It's true he bent a few parts last time round. This year has been almost beyond belief, nearly a 50 % crash rate.

And I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts on Kobayashi.

#1606 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:49

Yeah, but it's looking like Kobayashi is 'throwing away' much greater potential due solely to lack of sponsorship, Sutil 'threw away' his talent following his best year after one dumb incident in a pub, and Toro Rosso 'threw away' the talent of Jamie A. because Marko was on his PMS. All of them were much cleaner and likely as fast as Grosjean.

F1 is cruel like that, but being constantly involved in accidents is a deficiency directly related to racing. With the field so full of drivers wanting a go, there is great variety of drivers out there who have made fewer errors in their whole career than Romain has this season.

The TOTAL on the red end-plates is the only thing keeping Lotus sympathetic to Romain's lack of race-craft.

I think Grosjean is beyond the Kobayashi's and Sutil's of the sport, though. He could be a genuine top driver.

#1607 Jimisgod

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:18

I think Grosjean is beyond the Kobayashi's and Sutil's of the sport, though. He could be a genuine top driver.


Well, he's been on top of a few drivers this season. Alonso for one. Almost squashed that Ferrari. :rolleyes:

I remain unconvinced, given Kobayashi has out-qualified him a number of times in what is a slower car. Maldonado, too. The Lotus is capable of 3rd in the WDC or higher given Kimi's qualifying issues. Kimi will be back at full strength next year and Grosjean will lose any upside he had. Even Perez has 3 podiums to the 3 podiums of Grosjean.

Where is he now? 8th. Behind a Mercedes of all things. There was a whine that Sauber ought to be beating Merc by now, well Grosjean certainly should be. I think the Lotus was a car equal with RBR, McLaren and Ferrari for much of the year, and could have had both cars as contenders.

IMHO Kobayashi would be running Kimi far closer if he were in the car, not too sure about Sutil, but I get the feeling Di Resta or Hulkenberg would be better, too.



#1608 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:32

Grosjean would be much higher in the points if not for crashing out in the opening laps of races. He was on course to top Kimi after Valencia, for instance, and that was even after a couple crashes. Kimi has had no DNF's.

Seriously, Grosjean is really good. This sport would losing somebody special if this one season ruined him.

#1609 Kyo

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:39

I hope they keep him, the starts have been much more exiting this year! ^^

#1610 exmayol

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:55

I am surprised by amount of support RG is getting. Imagine LH or MSC causing so many accidents...

#1611 Disgrace

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:27

Not comparable. They are experienced WDCs. Grosjean is a rookie and the pressure cooker has unfortunately got to him such that it's clouding his obvious speed. Likewise, the situation wouldn't be as bad if people did separate the incidents he has been involved in with those he has caused, which again is creating misleading statistics and more pressure.

Edited by Disgrace, 12 October 2012 - 12:28.


#1612 Skinnyguy

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 13:38

I´ve supported him early on, I thought it was just bad luck, but I think enough is enough. He´s just caused too many accidents, don´t think he deserves to keep the seat. He qualifies very well, but he is terrible racing and average in race pace. Sort of a old times Trulli if you ask me, but crash prone. And this is not mid 2000´s, you will have lots and lots of wheel to wheel during a race and you can´t keep faster people behind all the race.

Keeping him another year wouldn´t hurt Lotus, but I can think of a good number of people looking better for the future on the current grid.


#1613 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 13:39

he is terrible racing and average in race pace.

:confused:

I dont remember any Grosjean trains this year where he was struggling to keep faster cars behind.

Edited by Seanspeed, 12 October 2012 - 13:40.


#1614 flavio81

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 15:31

I am surprised by amount of support RG is getting. Imagine LH or MSC causing so many accidents...


At least Rogro is quick to apologyze, recognize his mistakes and be humble afterwards. Things that LH and MSC aren't so good at.

#1615 metz

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 15:34

Of course. He's had more opportunity.

#1616 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 15:37

Likewise, the situation wouldn't be as bad if people did separate the incidents he has been involved in with those he has caused, which again is creating misleading statistics and more pressure.

Will post this again then.

I can do one better, all his first few lap incidents in his career so far :) .

Europe 2009 - collision with Badoer - first lap
Italy 2009 - contact which damaged wing - first lap
Belgium 2009 - crashed into Button - first lap
Australia 2012 - didn't back off when Maldonado had line - second lap
Malaysia 2012 - collision with Schumacher - first lap
Spain 2012 - contact with Perez - first lap
Monaco 2012 - collision with Schumacher - first lap
Britain 2012 - contact with Di Resta - first lap
Germany 2012 - ran off the track - first lap
Belgium 2012 - collision with Hamilton, Alonso - first lap
Japan 2012 - collision with Webber - first lap

11 first/second lap incidents in 20 career race starts. A few he isn't to blame for, but it's just ridiculous. Like Brundell says, more than just coincidence.



#1617 korzeniow

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 15:50

Will post this again then.


But you didn't separate anything

#1618 Riverside

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 15:51

I don't think even Katayama's debut looks that bad in comparison to this ^^^^

#1619 marcoferrari

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 15:55

:confused:

I dont remember any Grosjean trains this year where he was struggling to keep faster cars behind.


But I do remember some Kimi trains (Monte Carlo, Monza, Shanghai)... :)

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#1620 Disgrace

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 15:55

I don't think even Katayama's debut looks that bad in comparison to this ^^^^


I don't think generalising helps your argument either.

#1621 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 16:51

But you didn't separate anything

Ok.

Caused:
European 2009 - hit Badoer from behind
Spa 2009 - took out Button from behind
Malaysian 2012 - tagged Schumacher
Germany 2012 - although he didn't eliminate anybody it was his own mistake
Spa 2012 - takes out Hamilton and Alonso
Japan 2012 - takes out Webber

Not Caused:
Monaco 2012 - Alonso shenanigans and Schumacher takes the blame

Racing Incidents:
Italy 2009 - contact which damaged wing - first lap
Australia 2012 - didn't back off when Maldonado had line - second lap
Spain 2012 - contact with Perez - first lap
Britain 2012 - contact with Di Resta - first lap


This is irrelevant though, 11 races out of 21 in his career have had issues on the first and second laps.

Not comparable. They are experienced WDCs. Grosjean is a rookie and the pressure cooker has unfortunately got to him such that it's clouding his obvious speed.

Romain is 26, had championship winning seasons in GP2, Auto GP and elsewhere yet he's still having the same problems he experienced in 2009. Vettel, for example, had numerous first lap retirements in 2008 but they were nowhere near the number Grosjean has had. Also, Vettel was only 21 and had far less experience in single-seaters than Grosjean. Grosjean may well end up proving many of us doubters wrong, wins races and even a WDC, but at this stage it seems incredibly unlikely.

Edited by TheUltimateWorrier, 12 October 2012 - 16:55.


#1622 fed up

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 16:55

This is irrelevant though, 11 races out of 21 in his career have had issues on the first and second laps.


This...

The guy is a liability and is an accident waiting to happen.

If he can't go full out on the first lap - because he might crash - why even bother?

He needs to swap to IRL (or whatever its called) where they have rolling starts. Standing starts are not his thing

Simples :cat:

#1623 korzeniow

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 17:00

Romain is 26, had championship winning seasons in GP2, Auto GP and elsewhere yet he's still having the same problems he experienced in 2009. Vettel, for example, had numerous first lap retirements in 2008 but they were nowhere near the number Grosjean has had. Also, Vettel was only 21 and had far less experience in single-seaters than Grosjean. Grosjean may well end up proving many of us doubters wrong, wins races and even a WDC, but at this stage it seems incredibly unlikely.


Vettel crashed a lot in 2008 but he was Friday driver for BMW in 2007 and had a lot of mileage. In F1 the F1 expirience matters not single seaters expirience. Vettel had many incidents in 2009 and 2010 too, for which Whitmarsh labeled him as crash kid.

Hamilton also crashed a lot in 2011 despite his expirience and champion title. He managed to get on top of that.

Petrov crashed many times in his rookie year but last season and his current he drive solid.

#1624 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 17:45

Also, his in the later years of his 20s, it's not as if he's just some youngster who's still rapidly maturing due to being very young -- he's almost 2 years older than Vettel and roughly same age as Hamilton.

What does age have to do with it? It's F1 experience that counts and Romain only has one year experience total so far. Vettel's been in F1 constantly for the last five years, same with Hamilton.

#1625 Skinnyguy

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 17:54

:confused:

I dont remember any Grosjean trains this year where he was struggling to keep faster cars behind.


Of course not, as that isn´t possible nowadays unless you´re slow around Monaco or other places like that.

But you surely can recall initially blindingly fast stints turning into stinkers in the late stage.

#1626 scheivlak

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 17:58

But you surely can recall initially blindingly fast stints turning into stinkers in the late stage.

Like when?

#1627 Skinnyguy

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 18:00

Like when?


Without going too far, Hungary second stint. Easily eating into leader initially, lapping really slow and needing a early stop later.

#1628 scheivlak

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 18:12

Without going too far, Hungary second stint. Easily eating into leader initially, lapping really slow and needing a early stop later.

Not really the most convincing example of a stinker :D

His last stop wasn't that early, it was just a timely reaction to Vettel's second stop.
And his pace was good enough to keep him in third place despite Vettel going for another stop for fresher tyres.


#1629 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 18:45

Grosjean does just fine when he gets through the first few corners unscathed. His results when he finished were always pretty good. He had a chance at winning in Valencia as well. Even if he didn't, I think 2nd was easily on the cards, which still would have added to his good finishing positions.

#1630 Dolph

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 19:02

Without going too far, Hungary second stint. Easily eating into leader initially, lapping really slow and needing a early stop later.


I call BS. He stopped early to try to jump the leader. The leader reacted. Kimi on the other hand got to run the full lenth of his stop and took advantage when Grosjean was stuck behind slower cars.

#1631 balage06

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:25

Grosjean will be at Lotus in 2013:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19941279

#1632 Seanspeed

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:36

Grosjean will be at Lotus in 2013:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19941279

Good to hear. A Kimi-Grosjean lineup again will be good for the team. Grosjean can do so much better than his championship position right now suggests.

His race was ok today. A bit unlucky with the dicing with Lewis to get passed by Hulkenberg, but Nico was also really good today, not trying to take away anything from him. Hopefully he can get the new updates for the next race as they seem to be working well for Kimi.

#1633 Vesuvius

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:47

I call BS. He stopped early to try to jump the leader. The leader reacted. Kimi on the other hand got to run the full lenth of his stop and took advantage when Grosjean was stuck behind slower cars.


No, it was confirmed by the team and pitradio conversation that Romain had to stop early at hungary because he has lost the tyreperformance unlike Kimi who was able to save his tyres much longer.

Today Romain had ok, solid race and scored important points. Hopefully he stays alongside Kimi, if he doesn't crash no more

#1634 Seanspeed

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:50

No, it was confirmed by the team and pitradio conversation that Romain had to stop early at hungary because he has lost the tyreperformance unlike Kimi who was able to save his tyres much longer.

Lap times suggested Grosjean's tires were perfectly fine still. I wouldn't believe that for a second.

#1635 Torsion

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:56

Good race by Romain, I think he did the best job he could have done given the pressure he was under. Also happy that he will remain in the team.





#1636 Vesuvius

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:58

Lap times suggested Grosjean's tires were perfectly fine still. I wouldn't believe that for a second.


He himself reported trough pit conversation that his tyres were gone and he needed to pit.

#1637 Seanspeed

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:02

He himself reported trough pit conversation that his tyres were gone and he needed to pit.

I really dont remember that happening. You sure you're not getting the race mixed up with another one?

#1638 Vesuvius

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:13

I really dont remember that happening. You sure you're not getting the race mixed up with another one?


Nope, I posted the pitradio conversation and teams comments on this forum around the hungary gp.

#1639 Seanspeed

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:14

Nope, I posted the pitradio conversation and teams comments on this forum around the hungary gp.

Makes no sense then. His laptimes were actually improving, if I remember correctly. The team should have been smart enough to tell him to stay out if thats the only reason they pitted him. I still think they were just trying to cover Lewis.

Edited by Seanspeed, 14 October 2012 - 14:15.


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#1640 boldhakka

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:21

Makes no sense then. His laptimes were actually improving, if I remember correctly. The team should have been smart enough to tell him to stay out.


I tried to find the radio convo, but I couldn't. However I found several places where they mention Romain's rear tyres going off:

BBC (text commentary)
"Jennie Gow, BBC Radio 5 live pit-lane reporter
"It looks like Romain Grosjean is losing his back tyres."

James Allen:
"Lotus had two players in the game: Grosjean lost his chance of a win by taking too much out of the tyres at the start of the middle stint. This meant that at the end of the stint he didn’t have the pace to stay out longer and try to jump Hamilton at the second stops. By this stage Vettel had pitted on lap 38 and with a margin of just three seconds to play with on tyres which were spent, Lotus had no choice but to cover Vettel by stopping Grosjean.

Contrast this with Raikkonen’s execution of the strategy"

Daily Mail text commentatry:
"It looks as though Grosjean's rear tyres have dropped off... the Frenchman is sliding all over the place at the moment. " (lap 33).

Maybe stuff like this was the cause:
Lotus team on Twitter: "A little bit wide and some marble action compromised @RGrosjean, now has to catch Lewis again #HungaroKings"


#1641 Seanspeed

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:23

Ok well still, its hardly evidence that Grosjean is a terrible racer like Skinnyguy was trying to say. If thats the best evidence he has, then I'd say that speaks mountains for how weak the argument is.

#1642 Vesuvius

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:29

Ok well still, its hardly evidence that Grosjean is a terrible racer like Skinnyguy was trying to say. If thats the best evidence he has, then I'd say that speaks mountains for how weak the argument is.


I think Skinnyguy with all respect is wrong with his comment, Grosjean is fast and very skilled racer and can (hopefully) have great future ahead of him in formula 1. Despitate all the crashes, he has shown speed and got great results.

#1643 boldhakka

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:30

Ok well still, its hardly evidence that Grosjean is a terrible racer like Skinnyguy was trying to say. If thats the best evidence he has, then I'd say that speaks mountains for how weak the argument is.


Oh certainly, I wasn't following the rest of your conversation. Just got interested in the Hungary events and thought I'd look it up.

#1644 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:39

Ok well still, its hardly evidence that Grosjean is a terrible racer like Skinnyguy was trying to say.


Don´t twist my words, or get me wrong: I said he´s a terrible wheel to wheel racer, and has normal -think I said average before- raw race pace. That´s exactly what I meant.

To be fair, the "terrible racer" tag... you can disagree, but it is the only conclussion anyone like me, who has only followed him closely only in F1, can draw from what I´ve seen by now. I´ll be happy to be proved wrong in the long term, but right now it´s how I -and just about everyone in the grid- see him.

And yes, his tyres were dead in Hungary stint 2. You don´t remember correctly, he was starting to go hopelessly slow, and that´s the only reason why they hurry to pit him, because he was losing ground both to Lewis and to people 20-something seconds down the road, and every lap he had continued there´d be worse and worse traffic to deal with on the fresh rubber. Some of this radio communications they´ve sticked here were aired on live feed too.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 14 October 2012 - 14:41.


#1645 Seanspeed

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:51

Don´t twist my words, or get me wrong: I said he´s a terrible wheel to wheel racer, and has normal -think I said average before- raw race pace. That´s exactly what I meant.

That may have been what you meant, but thats NOT what you said. Dont try and say I'm twisting your words when its your fault for not being clear enough.

To be fair, the "terrible racer" tag... you can disagree, but it is the only conclussion anyone like me, who has only followed him closely only in F1, can draw from what I´ve seen by now. I´ll be happy to be proved wrong in the long term, but right now it´s how I -and just about everyone in the grid- see him.

Why do I get the feeling you wont be happy to be proven wrong? :lol:

And yes, his tyres were dead in Hungary stint 2. You don´t remember correctly, he was starting to go hopelessly slow, and that´s the only reason why they hurry to pit him, because he was losing ground both to Lewis and to people 20-something seconds down the road, and every lap he had continued there´d be worse and worse traffic to deal with on the fresh rubber. Some of this radio communications they´ve sticked here were aired on live feed too.

He was not starting to go hopelessly slow, nor was he losing ground to Lewis. I've got the laptimes right here:

Grosjean
27 1:27.294
28 1:26.819
29 1:27.094
30 1:27.379
31 1:27.727
32 1:27.732
33 1:27.435
34 1:27.458
35 1:27.952
36 1:27.428
37 1:27.566
38 1:27.676
PIT

Lewis
27 1:27.473
28 1:27.366
29 1:27.563
30 1:27.536
31 1:27.891
32 1:27.391
33 1:27.602
34 1:27.445
35 1:27.486
36 1:27.774
37 1:28.073
38 1:27.492
39 1:28.132
PIT

I included all the way back to lap 27 so you see there was no sudden drop off or anything.

#1646 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 15:17

That may have been what you meant, but thats NOT what you said. Dont try and say I'm twisting your words when its your fault for not being clear enough.


Have a look at the original post. It says "terrible racer" and "average race pace". It´s clear enough.

Why do I get the feeling you wont be happy to be proven wrong? :lol:


I have no problem to back out of anything, especially mistakes, my friend. Should know by now. :wave:

Also, Romain is a character that I really like. Humble, happy young man. I´ll be happy if my negative view of him as a racer right now ends up being wrong.

He was not starting to go hopelessly slow, nor was he losing ground to Lewis. I've got the laptimes right here:


Like here. I was wrong. He wasn´t losing to Lewis in the final laps. Radio transmissions said so, so did live broadcast, but as you show, it´s wrong. Mistake might come because he was in the one second range several laps and then pitted losing like 3 seconds. That´s what braodcast -and me- thought he was going slower than Lewis in the late face of the second stint.

Yet, even if that´s not true, point stands. He was forced to pit because he would drop further down every extra lap on track, due to people behind lapping faster... despite E20 showed being able to take these tyres at top level pace for much longer. And that´s exactly the kind of thing why I have the "average race pace" thing in my mind. He´s been blisteringly fast around a couple of places -like the Valencia day- but normally his Sunday pace is nothing special.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 14 October 2012 - 15:19.


#1647 Disgrace

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 16:09

Just what Grosjean needed, a confidence boosting drive. Little steps will do nicely.

#1648 sofarapartguy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:21

When RoGro is not crashing he is really not that spectacular.. What a shame.

#1649 Jon83

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:56

When RoGro is not crashing he is really not that spectacular.. What a shame.


I can think of several races this season where he has been very strong.

Can I ask, who exactly is "spectacular"?

#1650 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:46

Have people seen this? A rundown of Romains crashes this year. An interesting and fair analysis in my opinion.

Link: Analysis of Romain Grosjean's crashes

Edit: Sorry. The poster seems to have made this video private after I posted the link.

Edited by Desdirodeabike, 16 October 2012 - 13:23.