8165 replies to this topic

[slideways]

So with the first test coming up, how do we think these two will go in 2010? Seb had more pace and was a much better qualifier whilst Mark struggled but often showed better race craft.

Vettel has the experience of a title challenge under his belt, and the full support of the team. Webber is now fully healed from his injuries and has any weight penalties he suffered last year countered by the new minimum weight and front tyre regulations.

[dank]

With the fuelling ban this season, I'll be interested to see how Vettel fairs stuck behind other cars and not able to really rely on strategies to leap him ahead of the field.

I predict the gap between the two will be much less this season. Webber and his wise head should adapt to the changes well and will do well to conserve his tyres (his middle stints last year when fuelled link an oil tanker were impressive).

[The Ragged Edge]

Until Webbers broken leg, I had Webber down to show Vettel the way. As we all know the season never panned out like that. This year I will have no caveat or excuse to hide behind. If Webber doesn't beat Vettel over the 19 races, there can be no excuses for Webber or his supporters. This is a make or break year for him. Beat Vettel and he will be viewed as a driver capable of winning the WDC(like Button). Lose to Vettel again, and he'll be seen as a able wingman(Barrichello)#2.

[WebBerK]

Yes, Webber... "break a leg". [which means good luck for actor]

The season is never really on until Webber fans release their "shopping list of excuses" v2010.

[thuGG]

I hope for a good fight! I like them both but I'd really really like to see Mark as WDC, that would be great for him but it won't be easy beating Vettel.

[Atreiu]

If qualifying remains so one-sided, Vettel should easily have the upperhand. There is only so much overtaking possible, and pit stop strategies won't bring miraculous results that often. Now, if the RB6 just blitzes and blows everyone away from the word go, then it might be closer.

I wonder if Webber would have the balls to chop and colide with Vettel at a race start like he did to Barrichello and Raikkonen last season. That could make things personal and get really ugly.

[Alfisti]

Yeah qualifying, Webber either needs to know what happened or face the fact the youngster is quicker. zThe new tyres and minimum weight should help but last year was a worry, he had Vettel in all sorts of trouble then had 5 or 6 shockers.

[rolf123]

I think it will be fairly close this year.

Webber can with the WDC - this could be his last year of trying though, I feel he won't be given another chance if he doesn't prove it this year. Vettel will still be sought after by Ferrari, no matter what!

[Turbo4]

Webber to edge Vettel in points by the end of the year but not in qualifying, where I think Vettel will again hold the upper hand.

[beute]

With the fuelling ban this season, I'll be interested to see how Vettel fairs stuck behind other cars and not able to really rely on strategies to leap him ahead of the field.

I predict the gap between the two will be much less this season. Webber and his wise head should adapt to the changes well and will do well to conserve his tyres (his middle stints last year when fuelled link an oil tanker were impressive).

yes because webber did sooo many overtaking moves

[Muzzinho]

yes because webber did sooo many overtaking moves

Uh yeh thats right, he did

[FlashMaster]

Webber to edge Vettel in points by the end of the year but not in qualifying, where I think Vettel will again hold the upper hand.

And I thought Webber is/was a qualifying specialist

[BinaryDad]

Despite a few brain fades, Webber had a cracking year in 2009. He really showed us all that the "magic button" as Vettel so often called it, didn't make much of a difference if you had the nerve to hang on at the back of a KERS car for a couple of laps, and go for the pass.

I reckon Webber might not have the same fortune as last year, but he'll be a match for Seb and keep him on his toes.

[Turbo4]

yes because webber did sooo many overtaking moves

???

ummm .... yes he did actually, do you need a list of them?

Quite possibly the overtaking move of the year belonged to Webber.

[Turbo4]

And I thought Webber is/was a qualifying specialist

He was, and he might be again, but Vettel might be a little better.

[RodrigoL]

ummm .... yes he did actually, do you need a list of them?

That'd be nice, please.
----

This year will be the same: Vettel winning, but with a bigger margin.

[Atreiu]

Quite possibly the overtaking move of the year belonged to Webber.

Which one was that?
I really don't remember.

[Turbo4]

Webber on Button, around the outside in the wet, China.
Webber on Alonso, lose the place to KERS on the straight but win the place back on the next corner with a ballsy late braking move,
Spain.
Webber on Hamilton, a couple of times, Malaysia.

Just a few that come to mind.

Edited by Turbo4, 08 February 2010 - 14:13.

[Sausage]

Mark II kekeke

[Simon Says]

Webber on Button, around the outside in the wet, China.
Webber on Alonso, lose the place to KERS on the straight but win the place back on the next corner with a ballsy late braking move,
Spain.
Webber on Hamilton, a couple of times, Malaysia.

Just a few that come to mind.

Sorry, but Webber in Malaysia on Lewis was just bad. That Red Bull had incredible grip in the high speed corners in the wet and the Mclaren had the worst downforce of all cars. Webber overtook Lewis in the fast corners only to loose it again in the slow sections where downforce was not an issue. In the end Webber did beat Lewis, but it was extremely hard for Webber despite such a big car advantage. Lewis > Webber.

I don't see Webber doing well this year. Red Bull have openly stated that the car has been designed for Vettel and that Webber has to adopt to it. I reckon Webber has the potential to win a WDC since even Button managed to do it. But I'm not sure if he'll do it someday

[Simon Says]

Despite a few brain fades, Webber had a cracking year in 2009. He really showed us all that the "magic button" as Vettel so often called it, didn't make much of a difference if you had the nerve to hang on at the back of a KERS car for a couple of laps, and go for the pass.

I reckon Webber might not have the same fortune as last year, but he'll be a match for Seb and keep him on his toes.

Webber could have easily beaten Vettel and Button if he didn't have that bad streak of not scoring for so many races in the 2nd half of the season. No idea what went wrong there.

[BinaryDad]

Sorry, but Webber in Malaysia on Lewis was just bad. That Red Bull had incredible grip in the high speed corners in the wet and the Mclaren had the worst downforce of all cars. Webber overtook Lewis in the fast corners only to loose it again in the slow sections where downforce was not an issue. In the end Webber did beat Lewis, but it was extremely hard for Webber despite such a big car advantage. Lewis > Webber.

I don't see Webber doing well this year. Red Bull have openly stated that the car has been designed for Vettel and that Webber has to adopt to it. I reckon Webber has the potential to win a WDC since even Button managed to do it. But I'm not sure if he'll do it someday

As a McLaren and Lewis fan, I think you're under estimating just how much effort it would have taken to overtake the McLaren. Yes, Lewis had a bad car, but Webber would have overtaken him a lot sooner had Lewis not had the advantage of KERS and some solid skills in handling the car under braking.

I have to give props to Mark, for merely holding on long enough in those conditions, patiently waiting for Lewis to use up his KERS, and then going for the pass. Just because he had a much faster car, doesn't mean that it was an easy pass. I felt it took considerable courage and skill to pull it off.

[Trust]

That'd be nice, please.
----

This year will be the same: Vettel winning, but with a bigger margin.

You are hoping Red Bull will ditch Webber for Kimi if that happens .

I think Vettel will beat Webber with more or less the same margin.

[seltaeb]

I think both the Red Bull drivers drove very well in 2009. It's a shame that Vettel had to deal with the engine quota issue near the end of the season though. Who knows what'll happen this year!

[Seanspeed]

Beat Vettel and he will be viewed as a driver capable of winning the WDC(like Button). Lose to Vettel again, and he'll be seen as a able wingman(Barrichello)#2.

A bit unfair, if you ask me. Button didn't have a teammate like Vettel last year to deal with. He had Barrichello, who actually did show almost equal to Button over the season, he just didn't have his best times when the car was unmatched.

Even if Vettel beats Webber again this season, I'll still rate Mark higher than Jenson.

As for how I think it'll go this season, I've no clue. Could go either way, but the momentum is surely on Vettel's side.

[jeze]

They'll fight for P5 in the championship anyway, so I don't bother

[Seanspeed]

They'll fight for P5 in the championship anyway, so I don't bother

[Sakae]

Can't wait for kick-off, but I am looking forward towards competition between MS and SV, not MW v. SV, with Hulk and Nico as potential spoilers on side-lines. Ferrari and McLaren cannot be overlooked, but none of the drivers involved get me excited. Koba is a dark horse in this, and whilst I do not expect him to win WDC, he might give some guys a decent headache. I am also concerned that expectations what RBR will deliver are perhaps too high because of last year results; we shouldn't forget DDD row, which skewed championship really from the start, and placed maybe RBR team little ahead of themselves and their true position in pecking order.

In some races last year Mark and Seb were fairly evenly matched, but my bet is that whilst Mark has reached his F1 maturity age, Seb had some space to improve further, and 2010 should be a year for us to see whether this holds any water at all. Bring it ON!

Edited by MiPe, 08 February 2010 - 17:24.

[undersquare]

Can't wait for kick-off, but I am looking forward towards competition between MS and SV, not MW v. SV, with Hulk and Nico as potential spoilers on side-lines. Ferrari and McLaren cannot be overlooked, but none of the drivers involved get me excited. Koba is a dark horse in this, and whilst I do not expect him to win WDC, he might give some guys a decent headache. I am also concerned that expectations what RBR will deliver are perhaps too high because of last year results; we shouldn't forget DDD row, which skewed championship really from the start, and placed maybe RBR team little ahead of themselves and their true position in pecking order.

In some races last year Mark and Seb were fairly evenly matched, but my bet is that whilst Mark has reached his F1 maturity age, Seb had some space to improve further, and 2010 should be a year for us to see whether this holds any water at all. Bring it ON!

Well the DDD row totally hindered Red Bull in 2009. It was by far the fastest single-D car and not that well suited to bolting on a DDD either.

Why am I not surprised you're only interested in the German drivers . Seb will be a lot better and more consistent in his 3rd year, but Webbo will be a lot stronger as well having 2 legs and a proper winter training behind him this time round. Who knows, the racing will tell; crunch year for both of them, anyway.

[jez33]

but Webbo will be a lot stronger as well having 2 legs and a proper winter training behind him this time round.

Mark was not impeded last year because of his leg.
I say this because he showed excellent form and consistency in the early races, probably the most consistent driver aside from Button early on.
It was that slump after his first win in Germany that hurt his championship bid, not his leg.

Mark will have to improve his qualifying this year as he was pummelled last season.
I forget the head to head results, but it was embarassing, something like 14-3.
The die hards will say he showed better race craft etc but this was not a true reflection of reality.
The fact was he typically had a faster car than those ahead of him on the grid owing to poor qualifying results.
Add to this many of his "renowned" overtaking manouevres were simply a direct result of losing a place to the guy he overtook to begin with.

All this said I think the revised low fuel qualifying conditions of Q3 will come back to suit Mark.
He normally lost it in Q3 last year under race fuel regulations, but his Q2 times were often as fast if not faster than Vettel's.

Seb.v.Web was probably the best head to head of 2009, and I can't see any reason why it won't continue to be the best head to head of 2010.

[Sakae]

Well the DDD row totally hindered Red Bull in 2009. It was by far the fastest single-D car and not that well suited to bolting on a DDD either.

Yes, RBR got shafted last year initially with respect to Brawn GP team, but point I made was, that so were the other teams. Without DDD row JB probably wouldn't had it so easy half of the season, and pecking order on WCC scale probably would have a different color. It's not so clear that RBR would have ended up in P2 under that scenario.

P3 or P4, I thought, would give me more organic feeling that everything is as it should (for 2009).

[undersquare]

Mark was not impeded last year because of his leg.
I say this because he showed excellent form and consistency in the early races, probably the most consistent driver aside from Button early on.
It was that slump after his first win in Germany that hurt his championship bid, not his leg.

He normally lost it in Q3 last year under race fuel regulations, but his Q2 times were often as fast if not faster than Vettel's.

Seb.v.Web was probably the best head to head of 2009, and I can't see any reason why it won't continue to be the best head to head of 2010.

I agree Webbo's injuries weren't obviously affecting his driving but he broke his shoulder, got almost no training in, and could hardly walk. He may not have made a fuss but that has to have made a difference. All the reasons they train were in play against him, and the bumping on his leg was painful in the car, to start with. Not suggesting he was mistake-free by any means, but I do think he's in better shape to race in 2010. Really I'm saying he'll have an improvement that should keep him up with Seb and his improvement from a year's maturity and experience, as you're saying,

[undersquare]

Yes, RBR got shafted last year initially with respect to Brawn GP team, but point I made was, that so were the other teams. Without DDD row JB probably wouldn't had it so easy half of the season, and pecking order on WCC scale probably would have a different color. It's not so clear that RBR would have ended up in P2 under that scenario.

P3 or P4, I thought, would give me more organic feeling that everything is as it should (for 2009).

Well Red Bull had the best car in the second half of the season even with the cobbled-together DDD. So if they'designed for DDD from the start then as fas as I can see they'd have been dominant all year, probably.

[H2H]

All I can say than I'm eager to see them match themselves. Seb was chosen by the team principals as the best driver of 2009 and is considered to be one of the greatest talents in F1. Mark had a remarkable season in the shadow of his young teammate and will be eager to show that he can hold his own, especially with a far better presaison preparation.

H2H

[Raincoat]

Vettel would destroy Webber more convincingly this year. With the light fuel Q3 Webber would outclassed just like he was last year. Its going to be a mismatch and without doubt the last year for Webber in RB. He might get Toro Rosso though, but I cant see any top team going after him.

[Alfisti]

All this said I think the revised low fuel qualifying conditions of Q3 will come back to suit Mark.
He normally lost it in Q3 last year under race fuel regulations, but his Q2 times were often as fast if not faster than Vettel's.

Yeah forgot to mention that, this is Mark's biggest hope IMHO, he had many a fast Q2 so he should be closer this year.

[stonebutter]

Can't wait for kick-off, but I am looking forward towards competition between MS and SV, not MW v. SV, with Hulk and Nico as potential spoilers on side-lines. Ferrari and McLaren cannot be overlooked, but none of the drivers involved get me excited. Koba is a dark horse in this, and whilst I do not expect him to win WDC, he might give some guys a decent headache. I am also concerned that expectations what RBR will deliver are perhaps too high because of last year results; we shouldn't forget DDD row, which skewed championship really from the start, and placed maybe RBR team little ahead of themselves and their true position in pecking order.

In some races last year Mark and Seb were fairly evenly matched, but my bet is that whilst Mark has reached his F1 maturity age, Seb had some space to improve further, and 2010 should be a year for us to see whether this holds any water at all. Bring it ON!

I don't smell german nationalism in this post at all.

[Sakae]

I don't smell german nationalism in this post at all.

Yap, because there is none, but if there was, then I am sure it would be a very unique case. BTW in US they calling it patriotism.;)

Edited by MiPe, 08 February 2010 - 21:30.

[stonebutter]

Yap, because there is none, but if there was, then I am sure it would be a very unique case. BTW in US they calling it patriotism.;)

Hulkenberg, Schumacher, Vettel and Rosberg....I'm sure Heidfeld will set the testing world on fire too! No patriotism at all!!!

Edited by stonebutter, 08 February 2010 - 21:39.

[DrF]

Vettel will pwn Webber. There is no comparison between the two. Webber's desperation showed with his questionable moves on other drivers, like the chop on Kimi. Vettel is a gent, he doesn't need to resort to the type of underhand tactics that other washed out old has-beens are.

As for Red Bull being contendors. Don't forget they were fighting for the 2009 championship while everyone else, including Brawn, were working on their 2010 cars. They missed the first test because they weren't ready and don't have that essential feedback to check their wind tunnel results against.

[Sakae]

Does anyone know body weight difference between those two? I think Mark might be heavier, and I am wondering how much this is a handicap for him? Weight distribution / balancing the car on full tank...

[V8 Fireworks]

Vettel will pwn Webber. There is no comparison between the two.

No comparison is excessive. How did Webber ever finish ahead, which he did, if Vettel is so much better!?

Did Vettel need to go so hard in their one-twos? They could have put Klien in the second car, and Webber and Red Bull would still have won the races, with less wear on the machinery too, due to having two slower drivers.

[GhostR]

Good lord there's some revisionist istory being spouted in this thread! If we were to believe some of the posts in this thread, RBR *didn't* have the best non-DDD car at the start of last year (a laughable proposition), Vettel stomped all over Webber in Q2's on light fuel (laughable again), RBR are only joining the second test because they weren't ready (when in fact they always planned on skipping first test, same as '09).

This year will hopefully be a good one for Webber and Vettel. If the car is good enough, they'll both be very strong. I think Webber learned a lot from his first Williams year and should do well with the heavy car at race start (see some of his fuel tanker second stints in '09 that jumped him ahead of Vettel a couple of times). Suspect Vettel learned a bit about tyre management last year, but may need to learn a bit more. I think he pushes the tyres a bit too hard in the early laps, whereas Webber has learned to ease them in a bit.

Edited by GhostR, 08 February 2010 - 23:57.

[Sakae]

Good lord there's some revisionist istory being spouted in this thread! If we were to believe some of the posts in this thread, RBR *didn't* have the best non-DDD car at the start of last year (a laughable proposition),...

How did you arrived to conclusion they had best car right out of the box? I have to admit that would be news to me.

... RBR are only joining the second test because they weren't ready (when in fact they always planned on skipping first test, same as '09).

I didn't get that impression when Horner was explaining reasons why they commence testing in Jerez only. He could simply say, as planned, we are on schedule, instead going into lenghty AN will have more time, blah, blah...

[LoudHoward]

I think the leg/shoulder break did have an effect on Mark, he was taking painkillers to get through the first 4 or so races, and obviously wasn't near his normal fitness level, as Brundle said, he looked sickly preseason. On the other hand, Vettel did seem to get a little better as the season went on, a few less mistakes but keeping the pace, so that could offset that.

Vettel certainly had it down when it came to single lap, heavy fuel qualifying. If that will translate to low fuel, not sure, probably will. Though the smaller front tyres will come in to play, the drivers will have more ballast to use with and they'll probably be moving it backwards in the car relative to last year. From the whispers coming out of RBR last year that would seem to suggest to help Marks style out more.

As for racecraft, well they both seemed to have the ability to bang out fast laps when needed, Vettel did seem to get stuck more, I only really remember a couple of passes from Sebvet (Hamilton in Malaysia, Barrichello in Brazil, could be more though?) while Mark I can recall a few more (Alonso in Malaysia, Spain and Singapore, Button in China, a couple of cars in one corner at Bahrain, Rosberg at Hungary, Sebvet in Spa) and a bit of scrapping that I didn't recall seeing from Seb (Hamilton in Malaysia, Button in Abu Dhabi, maybe not pretty but got the job done). I'm glad fuel will be taken out of the equation now though, should be a bit clearer if we keep track of tyre wear.

Really, it's quite close, this could be the Kubica/Heidfeld matchup, that it's quite close and will just come down to the cars characteristics and circumstances. Though, if Webber beats Vettel in 2010 Mark has enough loudmouth fans that we'll make sure you hear about it heaps

Need to wait for the car anyways, I'd rather Vettel beat Mark in the fastest car, than the other way around in the 6th fastest.

[GhostR]

How did you arrived to conclusion they had best car right out of the box? I have to admit that would be news to me.

Go back, re-read what I wrote. RBR had the best non-DDD car at season start. They had the second best car on the grid, behind Brawn. The non-DDD RBR was better than the DDD-equipped Williams and Toyota cars. Had the DDD appeal gone the other way, I have no doubt that RBR would have run away with both titles. Probably a Vettel WDC with Webber the only serious challenger.

That appeal goes the other way and this season you'd see a grid full of pullrod rear suspension cars, instead of a grid full of pushrods with massive diffusers.

I didn't get that impression when Horner was explaining reasons why they commence testing in Jerez only. He could simply say, as planned, we are on schedule, instead going into lenghty AN will have more time, blah, blah...

Exactly the same things Horner said about their late start in '09. They aren't running late, they planned in an extra wee of development time as they feel that extra week is worth more than a few days testing. Especially with testing milage limited ... with reliability and good weather they can make up some of the missed time.

Edited by GhostR, 09 February 2010 - 00:36.

[Alfisti]

How did you arrived to conclusion they had best car right out of the box? I have to admit that would be news to me.

EH? I mean ....... jebus. Did you watch a race last year at all? I mean even one of say the first 5?

[Sakae]

Go back, re-read what I wrote. RBR had the best non-DDD car at season start. They had the second best car on the grid, behind Brawn. The non-DDD RBR was better than the DDD-equipped Williams and Toyota cars. Had the DDD appeal gone the other way, I have no doubt that RBR would have run away with both titles. Probably a Vettel WDC with Webber the only serious challenger.

Sorry, I did miss the non-DDD...

[slideways]

Obviously I am no mod but can I ask we try to keep the thread civil compared to last year (which often became difficult to follow).

I have admired Webber's driving for a long time but last year became a Vettel supporter... I am quite happy for both of these guys, and quickly have become a huge fan of Red Bull with the way DM has invigorated a team that in the Jaguar guise always showed they had potential.

I am hoping to see Seb come through the field a bit better and Mark to perform better in qualifying this year and some 1-2 results.

[Alx09]

I hope Webber will do well, I like him. It would be nice to silence the Vettel hype a bit too