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#101 ensign14

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 21:53

Hills problem was not that he was British, if anything it helped him in his career.

 

From about 1980 until 2000 British F3 was one of the most valuable proving grounds for a driver.  Many went from there to Formula 1; sometimes in one fell swoop.

 

Between 1985 and 2002 there were 7 British drivers who won the title and 11 non-British.

 

Of those, 1 British driver made it to F1 and 9 non-British did so.  The two non-British drivers who missed out raced in CART.  None of the 6 British drivers who missed out ever drove a top line single seater.  In fact the FIA bent over backwards to stop one from doing so, in order that a hopeless son of a French actor could waste everyone's time once more.



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#102 zanquis

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 06:25

Jim Clark, Stirling Moss, Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart, Peter Collins, Nigel Mansell, James Hunt, Mike Hawthorn, John Surtees, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button. Well that is 11 already. So if you don't like one, you can remove one k...

I also rate John Watson as a better driver and he probably would have won a title if he managed to stay at McLaren for 1 more year.



#103 zanquis

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 06:52

Also about British Formula 3, after 1992 it became a bad time for them in which it failed to attract any interresting drivers until 1999.During that time German F3 was a better feeding ground and also F3000 was a bit of a thing then. It picked up again in 1999 for a few years till basically the FR3.5 series and GP series got attention and nobody caring about british F3 anymore again. Well not exactly nobody just the people in britain cared, but nobody important. it was just a step to go to before going to FR3.5 and/or GP2/3 racing.

So maybe it is a good thing Hill didn't do British F3 but F3000 instead. But I dare people still to name 1 weaker F1 champion then Hill. cause even some non-champion drivers where seen as bigger drivers then Hill. (Again, not saying Hill is as bad as Badoer, just that he has never been underrated as a driver ever unlike what many British like to claim)



#104 Collombin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 07:24

Jim Clark, Stirling Moss, Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart, Peter Collins, Nigel Mansell, James Hunt, Mike Hawthorn, John Surtees, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button. Well that is 11 already. So if you don't like one, you can remove one k...


A top 11 British drivers list that omits Tony Brooks?!?!

That's what I would call underrated.

#105 garoidb

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 07:26

Also about British Formula 3, after 1992 it became a bad time for them in which it failed to attract any interresting drivers until 1999.During that time German F3 was a better feeding ground and also F3000 was a bit of a thing then. It picked up again in 1999 for a few years till basically the FR3.5 series and GP series got attention and nobody caring about british F3 anymore again. Well not exactly nobody just the people in britain cared, but nobody important. it was just a step to go to before going to FR3.5 and/or GP2/3 racing.

So maybe it is a good thing Hill didn't do British F3 but F3000 instead. But I dare people still to name 1 weaker F1 champion then Hill. cause even some non-champion drivers where seen as bigger drivers then Hill. (Again, not saying Hill is as bad as Badoer, just that he has never been underrated as a driver ever unlike what many British like to claim)

 

Hill did do British F3.



#106 ensign14

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 07:28

Also about British Formula 3, after 1992 it became a bad time for them in which it failed to attract any interresting drivers until 1999.

 

Picking 1994 at random, it featured Magnussen, Franchitti, Rosset, Marc Gene, Fisichella (in a one-off), de la Rosa and even Christian Horner.  It's interesting to note that the two Spanish drivers were well down in the extreme lower reaches of the championship, below such luminaries as Steven Arnold and Scott Lakin (who only did half the season), but they both made it to F1.  Andy Wallace didn't.

 

It's actually a stronger line-up than the F3k series that year, which was mostly French never-weres. 



#107 zanquis

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 08:39

@E.B. I never said this was the top 11 British F1 drivers, but just a list of British F1 drivers that I could easily think of that I rate higher then Hill. You may very well add Brooks to that list. Just more proving my point then anything else.
@Garoidb, well I stand corrected on that part, but it was not Hill's F3 results that got him a seat it was F3000, which was kinda my point.

@Ensign14, 1994 is NOT at random and you know it, you picked it deliberatly, nothing random about it. But lets play anyway, De La Rosa and Marc Gene kinda prove my point that British F3 was more a just a midpoint then a jumping board to F1. They took a couple of more years before they grew into good enough for F1. PdlR did Japanese F3 and Formula Nippon for a few years, Gene went for F3000, he was succesfull there but did not prove anything remarkable in F1 later. Rosset only really excelled in his sponsorship, if you are honest he should not have gotten into F1 to begin with but if anything his career should have been over by 1996 also. Magnussen just cruised by as the field was terribly weak. Magnussen looked good in F3 then but we all know how then ended up, less then 2 seasons of F1. If you count Fisichella then you should count Couldhart for the F3000 also. Anyway if you translate it to GP F1 participated you would have 432 for British F3 vs 430 for F3000, so yeah to say the line-up was much stronger? The most succesfull driver was in both cases the one-off racer. BOTH championships where weak it was actually a period.

 

If you look at that period of time, Debut drivers mainly came from F3000 and where mostly depressing driving money bags and the exciting drivers often came from German and Italian F3 or even Japan. Couldhart got into F1 more based on his previous performance then his F3000 performance anyway.

Andy Wallace didn't make it into F1, mostly because of money, and I figure he also at a point realized he can work hard to get money to maybe be succesfull in F1, but most likely struggle vs names like Mansell, Prost, Senna. or get paid for the rest of your career to become a sportscar/endurance legend.



 



#108 2F-001

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 09:14

I must have missed Damon Hill not doing the British F3 championship.

As far as I recall, he only drove a single race in the British domestic F3000 series to fill time, didn't he?

Hill is/was quite a remarkable driver in many ways; he didn't even start racing motorcycles until he was 21 and didn't race cars regularly until he was, what, 25? From what I recall of the time, his parentage was of no particular help, at least until he was already up and running and showing good form - having been largely self-funded through hard work to get that far - there wasn't heaps of family wealth getting him into racing.
I'm sure his name helped him get more coverage at that point, but he'd already done much of the hard work himself to get noticed through his performance.

I seem to recall a certain wariness amongst potential backers at the time - a late starter, with a famous father... was this just a wishful prodigal son looking for an entree into a high profile career on the strength of his name? I think he proved that was not the case.

Now, the years of the British F3 series for which zanquis feels were of no great worth...
Aside from the luminaries cited by Ensign above, those years attracted participation at some time or other from Pizzonia, Mark Webber, da Matta, Monotya, Ralph Firman, Bernoldi, Burti, Yoong and Karthikayen who all at least made it to F1 in some shape or form; Darren Turner who was sufficiently highly though of to be McLaren's test driver (and secure a works drive in DTM); three-times Indy 500 winner, Castroneves; Marcel Fassler and Guy Smith (4 Le Mans wins between them - no room for make-weights there these days)... and, amongst other emerging and respected pros, three-time World Champion Andy Priaulx and the widely-tipped Gonzalo Rodriguez.

Ok, that's a mixed bunch of rising stars, much-vaunted protegés and well-funded hopefuls and fancifuls... but there's a lot of both serious talent and serious money represented there; they didn't think the series was of no interest. Domestic series in Germany may have had plenty to commend at that time, especially with a lot of emergent local talent on the scene, but to suggest that nobody cared about the British series is plainly wrong.

#109 ensign14

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 10:19

@Ensign14, 1994 is NOT at random and you know it, you picked it deliberatly, nothing random about it.

 

 

No, I genuinely picked it at random.  I couldn't even remember who the respective champs were.  But the British F3 field was surely much stronger.  David Coulthard made it to the top 10 of the F3k field that year despite being in only 1 race.  75% of the field couldn't amass 6 points in ten.



#110 zanquis

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 10:21

Anyway, I have still no answer to who would be a lesser champion then Damon? I guess that is despite nobody wanting to write it, everybody probably agrees all other champions where greater then Hill.



#111 Nick Planas

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 10:57

"Everybody probably agrees" - yeah right.

 

It depends how you judge "lesser". If you compare someone who got to where he got through sheer hard work and determination as well as oodles of talent, and who won the World Championship 9 years after he started racing on four wheels, in a team who had already decided to drop him the following year; then ask yourself how old was Schumacher, or Hamilton, when they started racing on four wheels, and compare the time between then and their first WDC I think you'll see it is a sort of impossible question to answer.

 

Anyone, and I mean, anyone, who is able to score more points than anyone else through a season, based on that year's scoring system, is a deserving World Champion - none of these guys are slouches! You could argue that 1982 (Rosberg) was not a particularly brilliant year, looking at the results. Was he undeserving? No!

 

Oh and there are one or two WDCs which were won using cars which were not... well let's just say, their interpretation of the rules was very questionable. If I recall, the 1994 Benetton had many questions asked at the time and since about it's legality. Couldn't possibly be true though, because it's never been proven...

 

Is the World Champion always the absolute fastest guy out there? No, of course not, but that just shows it's not just about out and out speed all the time. To win a WDC many things have to come together.

 

If I had to name champions I've always thought of as luckier than their contemporaries then Mike Hawthorn springs to mind, but I'll happily listen to the counter arguments... Damon Hill won many more races than Hawthorn in his championship year.



#112 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 11:22

Could Tony Brise be classed as underrated?  I know he only did a handful of GPs before he was sadly taken from us, but IIRC he outclassed Alan Jones in the same car, the same AJ who went onto become the 1980 WDC...


Edited by Dick Dastardly, 20 October 2014 - 11:25.


#113 ensign14

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 11:28

Anyway, I have still no answer to who would be a lesser champion then Damon? I guess that is despite nobody wanting to write it, everybody probably agrees all other champions where greater then Hill.

 

We are lucky that F1 has never had a truly unworthy champion.  Dodged a bullet in 1999.  But given that Damon dragged a team from the depths of despair to the title, similar to his father, and dealt with being cheated out of a title with dignity, also similar to his father, I'd put him down as more of a Great than, say, Farina.  Or Scheckter or Rosberg or Piquet or Jones.



#114 kayemod

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 11:39

We are lucky that F1 has never had a truly unworthy champion.  Dodged a bullet in 1999.  But given that Damon dragged a team from the depths of despair to the title, similar to his father, and dealt with being cheated out of a title with dignity, also similar to his father, I'd put him down as more of a Great than, say, Farina.  Or Scheckter or Rosberg or Piquet or Jones.

 

Lay off Nelson, you can't lump in a three times champion with a string of one-offs. You'd love him if he had a Brummie accent, and where's the whinger in your list?


Edited by kayemod, 20 October 2014 - 13:09.


#115 Nemo1965

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 11:39

We are now discussing of Hill is the most undeserving champion? Eh...

 

I think that Hill is underrated. I have to say, that at the time I thought: 'Could Frank Williams not get a better driver to partner Prost and Senna?' But I think that in later years - in comparison with Coutlhard, Mansell, Villleneuve junior, Ralf Schumacher, Hill showed he was a worthy champion.

 

Part of the problem is, that these days we have a kind of 'pre-set'-idea about how a real champion arrives in F1. To be precise: he blitzes the field in the lower classes, starts in a midfield team, and then then lands a topdrive. In other ways: Senna-esque. The problem is there have been a lot of drivers - Sato, Magnussen senior, Verstappen senior - who came in a like a blitz into F1 and then failed. So if you turn this logic on its head, it means that a very modest entry into F1 - like Hill, Berger, Lauda - can also have success. And they had.


Edited by Nemo1965, 20 October 2014 - 11:41.


#116 Collombin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 11:45

Anyway, I have still no answer to who would be a lesser champion then Damon? I guess that is despite nobody wanting to write it, everybody probably agrees all other champions where greater then Hill.


I think the only thing that can be read into the silence is that people don't think a "worst ever world champion" is a suitable TNF discussion topic. It's been tried before, and given pretty short shrift.

#117 zanquis

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 11:58

Well even if it was random, the British Field was surely not much stronger. There is no backing for it. In the end both fields had roughly the same amount of F1 starts as a result. Both fields where not great and strong but then to use to use the point scored? ohboy.. that point goes to F3000 NOT British F3 Why? Because F3000 used a more difficult point scoring system, equal to F1, where F3 almost gave points for participating. Even the bottom drivers scored points, hell except for the bottom 2 everyone had 6 points or more.They had 18 races compared to 8 so it was super easy to score more then 6 points. If anything the ease with which Magnussen won the title by winning almost anything demonstrates the overal weakness of the field drivers where not developed enough yet.
 

But as a feeder series British F3 had a bad period where very few succesfull drivers came out of it. Does that mean British drivers automatically underrated? Well look at the German F3 champions, normally it was mostly filled with German, Austrian and Danish drivers, the last lacking a championship of their own, see them as the Scottish/irish Germans for all I care. in the same time period they won the championship 13 times. Only Michael Schumacher and Nick Heidfield and Wendlinger went to F1. The 7 drivers from other countries that won the championship 6 went into F1, Only the belgian champion failed to make it, he stranded in F3000. Does that mean drivers from those countries where discriminated? No it just means that it is more likely for a driver to be succesfull in him homeground then when he is in a different country. That is why the British F3 has had more British winners.It does not mean that like claimed British drivers are being generally underrated.

And back to why Hill is not underrated? Cause he did just what he did, he won the title he was a decent driver, in a very dominant car. He did great considering he lacked the proper foundation to be a good race driver. He did have a feel for speed but he often had a bad result for anything involved racing vs other drivers.

Coulthard showed much more promise and was already make Hills life difficult as he was starting to make Hill look like a nr2. before he had to make way for Villeneuve.
But to say Hill dragged a team from the depths?? K now you ARE overrating him. it was more Newey  car and williams was never in any depths, the only had one concern and that was finding a driver worthy to drive their cars to the title, they where really just looking for the next thing which they hoped Villeneuve would be. But from 1992 till 1997 their cars where always the best cars and Williams knew that, no depths. He did carry the team after the loss of Senna yes. But just emotional depths not performance depths.
 


Edited by zanquis, 20 October 2014 - 13:50.


#118 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 12:16

Please, Zanquis - it's Coulthard, not Couldhart.



#119 jeffbee

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 12:20

I was almost suckered into responding to Zanquis' various posts concerning Hill, but realised it's simply a wind up!

 

As someone posted on another thread, "don't feed the trolls".



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#120 kayemod

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 12:31

I was almost suckered into responding to Zanquis' various posts concerning Hill, but realised it's simply a wind up!

 

As someone posted on another thread, "don't feed the trolls".

 

I made that mistake when someone made a fanpost supporting Jos Verstappen, but he's complained about it, so I'll make no further comment.

 

He has an impressive collection of old Autosports though.



#121 ensign14

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 12:48

Lay off Nelson, you can't lump in a three times champion with a string of one-offs. You'd love him if he had a Brummie accept, and where's the whinger in your list?

 

I can do what I like, for I am Ensign.  But Piquet deserved precisely zero of his titles.  Twice he won in an illegal car, and the third came in a season when he was utterly bitchslapped throughout the season by his team-mate.



#122 kayemod

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:10

I can do what I like, for I am Ensign.  But Piquet deserved precisely zero of his titles.  Twice he won in an illegal car, and the third came in a season when he was utterly bitchslapped throughout the season by his team-mate.

 

It's that Brummie accent complex of yours coming out again, isn't it?



#123 jeffbee

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:21

I made that mistake when someone made a fanpost supporting Jos Verstappen, but he's complained about it, so I'll make no further comment.

 

He has an impressive collection of old Autosports though.

 

An impressive collection of old Autosports?  Can't be all bad then!!



#124 ensign14

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:59

It's that Brummie accent complex of yours coming out again, isn't it?

 

6 wins to 3; barring a wheelnut it would have been 7-2.  Facts.



#125 zanquis

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:13

I am not here to Troll just to put things in perspective against the "OMG, Hill is British and therefor underrated tone." I am actually on the side that is defending british drivers from being underrated. They are on average highly rated and when you look at the top 10 british drivers of now, is Hill on the list? No, and that is mostly because of very great British drivers like Steward, Clark, Hamilton, Moss, G. Hill, etc. If you would make a top 50 list his spot should probably be somewhere around the 40-50 region. And there is no shame in that. just do not come bullshitting that he is underrated.

 

He won the title fair and square that year, I am not saying things that are not true, Hill lacked the foundations from early racing that almost any other drivers had, that he still managed to get the result he did is a great succes. Even his own teamboss never saw him as a excellent racer, but a good solid driver next to a topdriver. When F1 lacked a topdriver in a top class car to take the championship he took it.


On small sidenote I still have old Autosports from when Schumacher and Hakinnen racing in Macau. So I can't be all bad.
 


Edited by zanquis, 20 October 2014 - 14:15.


#126 sennafan24

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:21

It's that Brummie accent complex of yours coming out again, isn't it?

Mansell was even made fun of by Brummies.

 

Jasper Carrot made fun of Mansell during his stand up routine in the mid 90's.  Jasper felt Nige was a very boring man, partially based on his droning voice.



#127 Nemo1965

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:26

An impressive collection of old Autosports?  Can't be all bad then!!

 

Now I am being branded as a fan of Jos Verstappen. My word... Frans (if you remember him) once declared me to be his eternal enemy because of the 'nasty things' I wrote about Verstappen... (And Zanguis once got very annoyed at me at the critical things I said about Jos and Max.)

 

That's the way life goes, I suppose...


Edited by Nemo1965, 20 October 2014 - 14:27.


#128 zanquis

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:46

When did you ever get me annoyed?



#129 jeffbee

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 15:23

On small sidenote I still have old Autosports from when Schumacher and Hakinnen racing in Macau. So I can't be all bad.

 

 

I believe we're talking about Autosports from 20 years or so before that!



#130 lars75

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 15:35

Well when you can drive 106 GP's without bringing much funding in backmark teams, there must be some talent in a driver!

 

Jos Verstappen didn't make the best out off his career, mostly through his tempre and manager. But there is one thing you can't say, that he was overrated. He is one of hundred drivers to drove more then 100GP's. So I think there are plenty off drivers that hope for a career like Verstappen.

 

As for Piquet and his titles!

 

Mansell won his only championship in a car where even a blind Cow would be succesfull! Not that Mansell isn't great, but the material is crucial for succes.

 

Schumacher won in a illegal Benetton as well in 1994. 

 

But when we look at the cars from the early 90's it was allmost allways a Brawn or Newey designed car that won the championship.

 

As I say from al the drivers that make it to F1 only 15% will win races and less then 5% will be aible to fight for a championship. It's very hard tot tell who is over- or underrated by the performance in F1. In F1 it doensn't matter what you know, but who you know. You have to be in the wright spot at the wright time!


Edited by lars75, 20 October 2014 - 15:36.


#131 Nemo1965

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 16:30

You have to be in the wright spot at the wright time!

 

The Wright-brothers were not the first to fly a motorized airplane but they got the wright credit for it.   ;)


Edited by Nemo1965, 24 October 2014 - 18:34.


#132 MattFoster

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 05:22

Wright on, right on!!



#133 Force Ten

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 09:12

I am not here to Troll just to put things in perspective against the "OMG, Hill is British and therefor underrated tone."

Oh. A militant Schumacher fan badmouthing Hill. Incredible. I guess it's the first time it has happened in this forum.



#134 zanquis

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 09:26

He Force Ten, no need for a insult on a old topic, been almost a month. Dont tell me you type so slow?

#135 WOT

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 11:09

If not under-rated then certainly unlucky - Chris Amon.

Have to agree with ensign14 - Damon Hill picked up the shattered pieces after the death, and having being in the shadow of, Ayrton Senna in '94, and almost mirrored his father's brilliance of '68 after the death of Jim Clark - could just imagine Damon recalling Chris Amon's words on the death of Jim Clark - "If this can happen to Jimmy, what chance do the rest of us have?" - that takes some balls. Give the man a break.
 



#136 kayemod

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 11:29

If not under-rated then certainly unlucky - Chris Amon.

Have to agree with ensign14 - Damon Hill picked up the shattered pieces after the death, and having being in the shadow of, Ayrton Senna in '94, and almost mirrored his father's brilliance of '68 after the death of Jim Clark - could just imagine Damon recalling Chris Amon's words on the death of Jim Clark - "If this can happen to Jimmy, what chance do the rest of us have?" - that takes some balls. Give the man a break.
 

 

Not exactly "proof", but this is the way that Autocourse viewed Damon's talents and place in the rankings at his peak. Only a compendium of motorsport writers' opinions of course, but not much "weakest-ever World Champion" here is there?

 

1993
1 Senna
2 Prost
3 Schumacher
4 Alesi
5 Hill
6 Brundle
7 Fittipaldi
8 Berger
9 Blundell
10 Barrichello

1994
1 Hill
2 Schumacher
3 Berger
4 Hakkinen
5 Coulthard
6 Alesi
7 Katayama
8 Irvine
9 Barrichello
10 Frentzen

1995
1 Schumacher
2 Hill
3 Frentzen
4 Berger
5 Alesi
6 Coulthard
7 Herbert
8 Hakkinen
9 Irvine
10 Blundell

1996
1 Schumacher
2 Hill
3 Villeneuve
4 Hakkinen
5 Alesi
6 Berger
7 Coulthard
8 Panis
9 Irvine
10 Frentzen


 



#137 WOT

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 12:14

As you say, not exactly "proof", but says a lot.



#138 Doug Nye

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 12:21

And well considered by involved specialists whose opinions are demonstrably of greater value, and accuracy,  than those of some who have posted in this thread.   :cool:

 

DCN



#139 kayemod

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 13:18

And well considered by involved specialists whose opinions are demonstrably of greater value, and accuracy,  than those of some who have posted in this thread.   :cool:

 

DCN

 

Sadly that applies to many threads on TNF these days, but it's a real mystery to me that a real star like Jos Verstappen doesn't feature somewhere near the top of those lists...



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#140 PCC

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 14:41

...not much "weakest-ever World Champion" here is there?

The very phrase is absurd. It's like a bunch of pygmies heckling the shortest of the giants.



#141 Doug Nye

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 17:05

The very phrase is absurd. It's like a bunch of pygmies heckling the shortest of the giants.


Brilliant!

DCN

#142 Michael Ferner

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 19:44

Brilliant!

DCN


+ 1!

#143 D-Type

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 20:04

Peter, that's a great simile.  I must remember it to use in the future.



#144 h4887

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 20:37

Funny, I thought I'd strayed into The Dark Side by accident... :rolleyes:



#145 kayemod

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 11:59

Peter, that's a great simile.  I must remember it to use in the future.

 

"I wish I'd said that!"

 

"You will Oscar, you will".