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Stirling Moss, Silverstone 1966


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#1 racingreen

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 00:32

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Dear All,

I am grateful for Ted Walker providing me with the attached images of Stirling Moss driving my Ex Tony Hegbourne, Norman Racing Team Cooper F2/2/64 at Silverstone in 1966.
Does anyone have any idea why?? Filming for "Day of the Champion", perhaps?
There is even a shot of Stirling taking a dummy checquered flag finish with the sister car of Mike Beckwith following!

David Woodhouse.

Edited by racingreen, 15 February 2010 - 00:49.


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#2 hansfohr

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 10:41

Although I can't answer your question it's probably interesting to note that your ex-Hegbourne Cooper is a quite significant car from a historic point of view. Actually both Normand run T71's were performing quite badly, in spite of the fact that chief mechanic Colin Knight improved the cars by modifying the front suspension. Only on the Avus with its endless straights Hegbourne succeeded to win with the poor handling T71. It marked the end of Cooper's succes in F2, it was the last ever win for Cooper in the category. That's what makes your car so special.

Edited by hansfohr, 17 February 2010 - 12:03.


#3 racingreen

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 21:58

Although I can't answer your question it's probably interesting to note that your ex-Hegbourne Cooper is a quite significant car from a historic point of view. Actually both Normand run T71's were performing quite badly, in spite of the fact that chief mechanic Colin Knight improved the cars by modifying the front suspension. Only on the Avus with its endless straights Hegbourne succeeded to win with the poor handling T71. It marked the end of Cooper's succes in F2, it was the last ever win for Cooper in the category. That's what makes your car so special.



Yes, significant to the marque, but also to the late Mr Hegbourne!



Does anyone know why Stirling was being filmed in the Normand Cars at Silverstone in 1966 ???

#4 racingreen

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 23:20

Yes, significant to the marque, but also to the late Mr Hegbourne!



Does anyone know why Stirling was being filmed in the Normand Cars at Silverstone in 1966 ???




I can't believe no one is forthcoming with discussion on these pictures....

#5 Macca

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 14:46

I'm afraid I can't come up with much - if it was early 'stock footage' for the later-cancelled McQueen film, it seems odd that the car was in the Normand colours, rather than having been repainted to resemble a '66 F1 car so that the footage could be slipped in with filming of real GPs at the 2 circuits with which Sturges had contracted, Reims and the Nurburgring.

There was an F2 or F3 Cooper used by MGM which was glimpsed a couple of times at Brands and Monza in 'Grand Prix', as well as at Charade as I posted in the Out-takes thread, but it looks like a different car; grabs from the DVD:

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Paul M

#6 racingreen

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 17:12

I'm afraid I can't come up with much - if it was early 'stock footage' for the later-cancelled McQueen film, it seems odd that the car was in the Normand colours, rather than having been repainted to resemble a '66 F1 car so that the footage could be slipped in with filming of real GPs at the 2 circuits with which Sturges had contracted, Reims and the Nurburgring.

There was an F2 or F3 Cooper used by MGM which was glimpsed a couple of times at Brands and Monza in 'Grand Prix', as well as at Charade as I posted in the Out-takes thread, but it looks like a different car; grabs from the DVD:

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Paul M


Hi Paul,

Very difficult to tell if the Cooper in the Grand Prix out takes is a T75, 76, or 77 ! I agree, it does not look like a T71, or 73.

So, the mystery of my car running with Stirling at Silverstone remains....

#7 SpitfireJEJ

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 18:08

I seem to recall that about this time some adverts appeared in Motor Sport offering cine films with sound discs. The images were taken from the cockpit as Stirling lapped several circuits. The only circuit I remember specifically was Monaco. Could the images have anything to do with that?

#8 Gerr

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 06:45

I seem to recall that about this time some adverts appeared in Motor Sport offering cine films with sound discs. The images were taken from the cockpit as Stirling lapped several circuits. The only circuit I remember specifically was Monaco. Could the images have anything to do with that?


Reviewed in R&T, October 1966....

Moss at Monaco
Moss at Brands Hatch
Moss at Silverstone

Films and records by Cine-Circuit Films Ltd.
12 Duke St.
St James's, London SW1


#9 Ted Walker

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 08:19

David as I said when you bought the prints I think its something to do with BP petrol

#10 racingreen

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 23:18

David as I said when you bought the prints I think its something to do with BP petrol


Hi Ted,

The great Kathy Ager at LAT has a lead on this for me as well.... I will report any developments!

#11 racingreen

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 23:19

Reviewed in R&T, October 1966....

Moss at Monaco
Moss at Brands Hatch
Moss at Silverstone

Films and records by Cine-Circuit Films Ltd.
12 Duke St.
St James's, London SW1


Gerr,

Do you know if these are available today??

Cheers,

David.

#12 Doug Nye

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 23:43

I have asked SM about this drive. "Haven't a clue old boy. I'm so old I can be excused for not remembering a thing. These days even my memories of the birds are hazy..." :stoned:

DCN

#13 Macca

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 19:03

I have asked SM about this drive. "Haven't a clue old boy. I'm so old I can be excused for not remembering a thing. These days even my memories of the birds are hazy..." :stoned:

DCN


Sir John Whitmore did an article here
http://www.telegraph...fruit-cake.html

from which this is an excerpt:
"Steve thought that he owned the right to make the definitive motor racing movie. He was jealous of both the acting and driving reputation that James Dean had acquired so tragically, and he was furious when John Frankenheimer announced his Grand Prix project. With Sturgess as director and Eddie Anhalt as writer, Steve set out to beat Frankenheimer to the draw. He cobbled together a team comprising Stirling Moss, myself and the drivers that Frankenheimer had not yet contracted, and announced Day of the Champion.

We mounted a huge 35mm camera on a Lola sports car, which I drove on test in a real race at Oulton Park; I later filmed Stirling spinning off at the Nürburgring. Unfortunately the budget did not materialise, nor did the script. The film was doomed and Steve was devastated."

I wonder whether Sir SCM (GLE) remembers the Nurburgring bit?

Paul M

#14 racingreen

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 21:59

I have asked SM about this drive. "Haven't a clue old boy. I'm so old I can be excused for not remembering a thing. These days even my memories of the birds are hazy..." :stoned:

DCN


Hello Doug,

I tackled Stirling about this in the Driver's Mess at the Revival in 2008. As you say, he has absolutely no recollection of why he was driving the car. Susie on the other hand said that she thought it was "for that racing movie, not Grand Prix.... the other one". I could only presume she meant "Day of the Champion", but I am still not sure.....

If the filming was for Day of the Champion, it is strange that Warner Bros. had not purchased the Normand Coopers (they are not listed in the 7 single seaters that had been procured for filming).

I also sent a copy of the set of photographs to Mike Beckwith (who is in the second car following Stirling). Mike had no recollection of this happening !

David.

Edited by racingreen, 03 March 2010 - 22:05.


#15 racingreen

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 21:37

I have asked SM about this drive. "Haven't a clue old boy. I'm so old I can be excused for not remembering a thing. These days even my memories of the birds are hazy..." :stoned:

DCN



In July 1964, both Autocar and Autosport magazines announced that Stirling had been driving a racing car around the Brands Hatch Grand Prix circuit filming a 5 minute dice, showing what lines to take and signs to look for. It was produced in 8mm and a 45 record was produced that could be "synchronized" to the film. The film was produced by Cine-Circuit Films of St James, and was for sale at one of the Brands Hatch paddock shops at that years British Grand Prix.
It was announced that Stirling had agreed to make follow-up films of all the major British and Continental circuits. Thanks to Kathy Ager for discovering this information.

While this might offer one idea why Stirling was driving the Normand Racing Team Cooper F2 at Silverstone two years later, it may also be unrelated.

Has anyone seen "Moss at Silverstone" by Cine-Circuit Films, reviewed in R&T, October 1966 ?

SM did confirm to me that he was contracted to John Sturgess, so until the Cine-Circuit film from Silverstone is seen, filming for "Day of the Champion" remains a possibility...

And then Ted still thinks it was BP related filming....


#16 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 07:57

This is one of a series of guides to British circuits produced in 1966 by BP. I used to have most of them, but can only find this one for Silverstone. There were definitely others for Brands, Oulton and Goodwood. There is unfortunately no clue on the guide as to what type of car Stirling might have used to make them.

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Sorry about the second scan - the thing was too large for my scanner.

#17 Peter Darley

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 09:09

[quote name='Macca' date='Mar 3 2010, 19:03' post='4192111']
Sir John Whitmore did an article here
http://www.telegraph...fruit-cake.html

QUOTE:

We mounted a huge 35mm camera on a Lola sports car, which I drove on test in a real race at Oulton Park; I later filmed Stirling spinning off at the Nürburgring. Unfortunately the budget did not materialise, nor did the script. The film was doomed and Steve was devastated."



Have got the photos of the Lola T70 on the grid at Oulton, with "Day of the Champions" on the nose. The camera is forward of the driver which must have restricted driver vision. Alan Mann was also there.


#18 racingreen

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 23:51

This is one of a series of guides to British circuits produced in 1966 by BP. I used to have most of them, but can only find this one for Silverstone. There were definitely others for Brands, Oulton and Goodwood. There is unfortunately no clue on the guide as to what type of car Stirling might have used to make them.

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Sorry about the second scan - the thing was too large for my scanner.



Thank you Tim.

So BP was related to the Cine-Circuit films.... this would confirm Ferrett's theory and Kathy Ager's lead.

Now all I need to do is find The Motor Racing Circuit Guide No 4 to watch to confirm Normand Cooper or not....

David Woodhouse.

#19 racingreen

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 21:19

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Here are period reports from the tabloids announcing Stirling's return to the cockpit (in '64 not '66 as previously thought) to produce the Cine Circuits series of Track Films.
During the filming of Silverstone, Stirling drives both Normand Team cars, but spends the main body of filming in F2/2/64 (distinguished by modified lower rear suspension).

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#20 racingreen

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 21:21

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Pictures of the Cine Circuits 8MM movie and 45RPM Sound track.