V-16 BRM - two opinions
#1
Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:49
Juan Manuel Fangio "...the BRM was the most fabulous car he had ever driven". (His autobiography).
The joy of being a motor racing hstorian.
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#2
Posted 19 February 2010 - 12:03
Stirling Moss "... I rate the V16 BRM as the most dangerous car I have ever driven...". (Sports Cars of the World).
Juan Manuel Fangio "...the BRM was the most fabulous car he had ever driven". (His autobiography).
The joy of being a motor racing hstorian.
We'll have to call it a fabulously dangerous car.
#3
Posted 19 February 2010 - 12:11
Stirling Moss "... I rate the V16 BRM as the most dangerous car I have ever driven...". (Sports Cars of the World).
Juan Manuel Fangio "...the BRM was the most fabulous car he had ever driven". (His autobiography).
The joy of being a motor racing hstorian.
That's hardly conclusive, one of the dictionary definitions of fabulous is 'almost unbelievable'
#4
Posted 19 February 2010 - 13:45
The joy of being a motor racing historian always accepts differing opinionsThe joy of being a motor racing hstorian
#5
Posted 19 February 2010 - 14:00
Stirling Moss "... I rate the V16 BRM as the most dangerous car I have ever driven...". (Sports Cars of the World)
I have always been puzzled by Stirling Moss's constant criticism of the Mk.1 V16. He never misses an opportunity, and yet less talented drivers like Ken Wharton, Reg Parnell and Peter Walker seemed to cope with car better as did Ron Flockhart in his one race with the Mk1 at Goodwood. I appreciate that the Dundrod road circuit in the wet in 1952 was hardly an ideal place for a race debut with the car but even so!. Fangio and Gonzalez seemed to relish all of that V16 power and used it to full advantage.
#6
Posted 19 February 2010 - 14:28
Very briefly: the trailing arm front suspension was woefully inadequate for its job (the same basic design as in the VW beetle, okay as we know for a Formula Vee these days, but not up to the astronomical power and speed of the BRM). The power curve on the supercharged engine was so steep that just a few hundred rpm extra could double the power.
He based this opinion on a lengthy test drive when his opinons were sought by BRM. A long time later, when he drove it a second time after "development", there had been no significant changes to the major problems he had pointed out.
It was raceable, but as we know never a real winner, and Moss knew it. He also saw, from that experience, that BRM was too slow, too bureaucratic and too dismissive of drivers' concerns ever to improve the car enough. He was right.
I wish I'd kept my copy of that book. The combination of Pomeroys theory, Moss's practical experience, and the superb cutaways is unmatched.
#7
Posted 19 February 2010 - 15:25
Moss set out his opinions in detail and at length in The Design and Behaviour of the Grand Prix Car, Pomeroy and Moss.
Very briefly: the trailing arm front suspension was woefully inadequate for its job (the same basic design as in the VW beetle, okay as we know for a Formula Vee these days, but not up to the astronomical power and speed of the BRM). The power curve on the supercharged engine was so steep that just a few hundred rpm extra could double the power.
He based this opinion on a lengthy test drive when his opinons were sought by BRM. A long time later, when he drove it a second time after "development", there had been no significant changes to the major problems he had pointed out.
It was raceable, but as we know never a real winner, and Moss knew it. He also saw, from that experience, that BRM was too slow, too bureaucratic and too dismissive of drivers' concerns ever to improve the car enough. He was right.
Fangio and Gonzalez just got into the thing and wrung its neck!. They won races in it too as did Wharton and Parnell.
#8
Posted 19 February 2010 - 17:29
#9
Posted 20 February 2010 - 14:10
One in particular was the suggestion that they use rack and pinion steering.
#10
Posted 20 February 2010 - 15:07
His complaint was not so much the trailing arm system, as the poor results from it on the BRM. I can't remember Pomeroy's comments on the trailing arm system, but doubtless he had a few. Probably very abstract.
#11
Posted 20 February 2010 - 20:43
Also "...the front wheels pattered and vibrated so much that the car would simply plow it's way wide on nearly every corner. Yet with so much power going through those narrow rear tires, the back end was liable to break away viciously quickly at almost any time"
From Stirling's report to BRM after testing at Monza: reprinted from "Stirling Moss, by Robert Raymond (Motor Racing Productions Ltd.).
"On watching the front wheels closely while cornering I found that they wobbled sideways as well as the usual up and down suspension movement. This wobbling was apparent on the track rods as well as the wheels. ...I found that one could move the steering wheel 5" to 7" without the car's direction being affected. While the car was on the ramps I turned the wheel 10" with only 1" movement at the road wheels. Could rack and pinion steering be applied?".
"The car has a dangerous trick of understeering excessively on a trailing throttle".
#12
Posted 21 February 2010 - 00:12
#13
Posted 21 February 2010 - 01:14
Rudd also remarked on the lack of feedback given by Fangio to help improve the car. Fangio apparently believed that the driver's job was to do the best he could with the machinery he was given. It was up to the engineers to improve it if they felt it necessary.
#14
Posted 21 February 2010 - 05:35
People fprgat how inexperienced Moss was when he drove the V16. The most powerful single seater he had previously driven was the HWM, with perhaps 1/3 the power.
This is significant I would think. In the "Sports Cars of the World" article he writes: "... the brakes had been known to fail and this was a slightly unnerving thought as you barreled it down the back straight at Monza and towards the relatively slow Curva Parabolica at something like 185mph!"
Fangio of course had two full seasons of throwing a 158 Alfa Romeo around on some of the most demanding circuits in the world.
#15
Posted 21 February 2010 - 06:46
Edited by sandy, 21 February 2010 - 08:14.
#16
Posted 21 February 2010 - 07:11
Behra, Schell, Gurney, Hill, Salvadori, Flockhart, McKay Fraser and I think Brooks only drove the 4-cyl car. Without checking I won't say that of Hawthorn and I know Collins drove the V16.
#17
Posted 21 February 2010 - 07:23
Of course a lot of that's nothing to do with the V16...
Behra, Schell, Gurney, Hill, Salvadori, Flockhart, McKay Fraser and I think Brooks only drove the 4-cyl car. Without checking I won't say that of Hawthorn and I know Collins drove the V16.
I agree but as the solicitor says in "The Castle" it is the vibes of the case and I don't say that as a putdown - Stirling said at the time that he had lost all enthusiasm for the BRM, partly because the car was dangerous and partly because too many politics seemed to be involved in the operations of the team. Of course they proved to be a brilliantly successful team but at the time of Moss's V16 involvement he was not over enthused - going by what he has written.
Edited by sandy, 21 February 2010 - 07:41.
#18
Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:22
Thought i would enter the debate with a picture of said car. Also on the Cutaway thread there are two such pictures of this car on Page 9 and Page53 showing you can see the problem area.
What I see is the different Front Dampers position has been changed and the rear trailing arms went from Pressed metal to Rod type at the back end.seen in the pictures. these are courtesy of Tony Matthew and Macoran.
#19
Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:53
Thought i would enter the debate with a picture of said car. Also on the Cutaway thread there are two such pictures of this car on Page 9 and Page53 showing you can see the problem area.
What I see is the different Front Dampers position has been changed and the rear trailing arms went from Pressed metal to Rod type at the back end.seen in the pictures. these are courtesy of Tony Matthew and Macoran.
I've asked the question before and had nothing but dusty silence in response. A key figure in the development of the V16 was Ken Richardson, he was involved in ERA pre-war and must have had May's confidence as he also raced the V16. I never thought to ask him in the early 60's when I knew him and have kicked myself ever since. He was a seminal figure in racing and rallying but background is very thin. Can anybody fill it out?
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#20
Posted 21 February 2010 - 09:30
Don't recall Richardson racing the V16, though he did test-drive it, and he had earlier raced the Thin Wall Special through Mays's influence, and did again in 1952. Better-known perhaps working for Standard-Triumph and racing factory TR2s at Le Mans and in the TTA key figure in the development of the V16 was Ken Richardson, he was involved in ERA pre-war and must have had May's confidence as he also raced the V16. I never thought to ask him in the early 60's when I knew him and have kicked myself ever since. He was a seminal figure in racing and rallying but background is very thin. Can anybody fill it out?
I'm sure one of the mags - Classic & Sports Car? - did a story on him a few years ago, perhaps through one of his sons
#21
Posted 21 February 2010 - 10:05
After leaving BRM Ken joined the Standard Motor Corporation, playing a major role in developing (and racing) the Triumph TR2 and TR3. His whole career can be found on this excellent site: http://www.historicr...mp;fromrow=2474I've asked the question before and had nothing but dusty silence in response. A key figure in the development of the V16 was Ken Richardson, he was involved in ERA pre-war and must have had May's confidence as he also raced the V16. I never thought to ask him in the early 60's when I knew him and have kicked myself ever since. He was a seminal figure in racing and rallying but background is very thin. Can anybody fill it out?
BTW Ken was the first ever to drive the BMR V16, that historic moment took place on 27. November 1949 at 11 pm on a road just outside the premises in Bourne. The next day he drove 13 laps with the brutal car on the Folkingham airfield circuit (where the car was officially presented on 15. December 1949).
Ken Richardson and Maus Gatsonides in the 1954 Mille Miglia, driving a near standard TR2. They finished a splendid 27th overall and 7th in the 2L class. It showed the huge potential of that little British sportscar.
Edited by hansfohr, 21 February 2010 - 10:09.
#22
Posted 21 February 2010 - 10:14
Of course a lot of that's nothing to do with the V16...
Behra, Schell, Gurney, Hill, Salvadori, Flockhart, McKay Fraser and I think Brooks only drove the 4-cyl car. Without checking I won't say that of Hawthorn and I know Collins drove the V16.
Peter Collins only raced the V16 in its revised Mk11 form, winning races at Goodwood and Aintree in 1955.
As described in Volume 1 of Doug's BRM history, Mike Hawthorn tested the MK1 V16 in August 1952 prior to the Turnberry meeting for which he decided to drive Vandervell's Thinwall-Ferrari. Ironically, the race was won by Reg Parnell in a V16!.
Ken Richardson was the nominated driver for the second V16 at Monza 1n 1951.
#23
Posted 21 February 2010 - 10:26
Ken shared one of Vandervell's 125 at the 1949 British GP at Silverstone with Raymond Mays who drove virtually the whole distance. Near the end of the race the car was handed over to Ken who crashed it heavily at Abbey into a spectator area. Fortunately nobody was seriously injured.....and he had earlier raced the Thin Wall Special through Mays's influence, and did again in 1952.
Edited by hansfohr, 21 February 2010 - 10:28.
#24
Posted 21 February 2010 - 10:58
I saw it race on a number of occasions and when it went well it was spectacular, and at Albi (I was not there) it showed just how fast it was. Many of it's problems arose from a design that was ahead of it's time, when high quality materials were hard to come by, however, never mind the quality, the sound was truly FABULOUS.
I remember that at Aintree you could track it's progress all around the circuit by the engine note rising and falling from corner to corner. Acceleration, flat out, braking, all perfectly heard over a lap.
Memories I would not swap for any other from over sixty years of following motor sport.
Eric is right, the good guys just drove the thing - regardless.
Kind regards to you all.
Bauble.
#25
Posted 21 February 2010 - 13:18
An interesting biography, but did Richardson really drive in the 1949 International Trophy?After leaving BRM Ken joined the Standard Motor Corporation, playing a major role in developing (and racing) the Triumph TR2 and TR3. His whole career can be found on this excellent site: http://www.historicr...mp;fromrow=2474
#26
Posted 21 February 2010 - 17:53
DCN - (thanks to Talk Talk/BT currently on dial-up 'dongle')
#27
Posted 21 February 2010 - 18:14
He certainly did, although it ended in tears at Abbey (read my 11:26 post).An interesting biography, but did Richardson really drive in the 1949 International Trophy?
#28
Posted 21 February 2010 - 18:39
I have read your 11:26 post again and again, and can see no reference to the 1949 International TrophyHe certainly did, although it ended in tears at Abbey (read my 11:26 post).
(perhaps you could add reputo primoris to your signature )
Edited by David McKinney, 21 February 2010 - 18:42.
#29
Posted 21 February 2010 - 18:55
My understanding is that Mays drove an ERA, R4D, in practice for the International Trophy but did not start. It was in the Grand Prix that Richardson crashed at Abbey.I have read your 11:26 post again and again, and can see no reference to the 1949 International Trophy
(perhaps you could add reputo primoris to your signature )
Does anybody know how many laps Richardson drove in hte Grand Prix? It can't have been many.
#30
Posted 21 February 2010 - 19:38
DCN
#31
Posted 21 February 2010 - 20:11
I thought that might be the case. He also crashed on the first lap of his race in the Thinwall at the 1952 Goodwood Easter meeting.Without checking, I believe that Richardson went off on what today would be described as his 'out lap'. The spectators he hit included several members of Napier's design staff. Ken was notoriously very full of himself, widely regarded as a BS merchant, very much over-promoted by Raymond Mays who was much impressed - and possibly attracted - by him, and later extremely self-promoting.
DCN
#32
Posted 21 February 2010 - 21:20
Roger,An interesting biography, but did Richardson really drive in the 1949 International Trophy?
No he didn't (nor did he practice)
I am certain the above biography is getting confused with the 1949 British GP, where Richardson took over from Mays in the Vandervell/Thinwall Ferrari.
According to the Black Books he crashed on lap 81.
BTW AFAIK Richardson never drove Mays' R4D in competition.
#33
Posted 21 February 2010 - 22:42
But the ones to be really afraid of are the ones that start "I wasn't aware that ..." Especially if they refer to something you've written yourself!
So, Mr Hook: may I introduce you to Messrs Line and Sinker?
#34
Posted 21 February 2010 - 23:42
Dear old Tom Wheatcroft rated it to the point of having that exact number plate on his road car `V16BRM`.Stirling Moss "... I rate the V16 BRM as the most dangerous car I have ever driven...". (Sports Cars of the World).
Juan Manuel Fangio "...the BRM was the most fabulous car he had ever driven". (His autobiography).
The joy of being a motor racing hstorian.
#35
Posted 22 February 2010 - 09:49
I meant the British GP, sorry for that. At 57 years of age some blond streaks in my hair are still there. LOLI have read your 11:26 post again and again, and can see no reference to the 1949 International Trophy
(perhaps you could add reputo primoris to your signature )
#36
Posted 22 February 2010 - 10:08
Ken qualified 10th, but his racinglicense was regarded 'incorrect' and therefore he was unallowed to compete. What was exactly wrong with his license, wasn't it granted by the governing body or the organizers?Ken Richardson was the nominated driver for the second V16 at Monza 1n 1951.
Edited by hansfohr, 22 February 2010 - 11:47.
#37
Posted 22 February 2010 - 10:44
#38
Posted 22 February 2010 - 12:41
It seems that his total racing experience at that time was a part lap (to Abbey) of Silverstone. Admitted, the pits were between Abbey and Woodcote so he had almost completed a lap but it's hard to see how he could have a licence to drive in the Italian Grand Prix. If the ACI were looking for an excuse, I wouldn't blame them.According to DCN in BRM Vol 1 Richardson did not have the necessary full International visa in his competition licence. I'm guessing this meant that he could take part in International events inside the UK, but not in other countries. Would this make sense?
#39
Posted 22 February 2010 - 14:20
And he'd only got the Silverstone drive because the RAC had - after initial concerns over calling the car a "special" - politely rejected the entry of the original reserve driver. That reserve did at least have racing experience, although I would doubt he still possessed a competition licence in 1949, his final season having been in 1924.It seems that his total racing experience at that time was a part lap (to Abbey) of Silverstone. Admitted, the pits were between Abbey and Woodcote so he had almost completed a lap but it's hard to see how he could have a licence to drive in the Italian Grand Prix. If the ACI were looking for an excuse, I wouldn't blame them.
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#40
Posted 23 February 2010 - 00:06
DCN
#41
Posted 23 February 2010 - 06:05
A shame as you say. You needed someone else in the conversation to help you help him out...
#42
Posted 23 February 2010 - 07:31
But did Raymond Mays know Alick Dick of Standard?
JB
#43
Posted 23 February 2010 - 08:09
#44
Posted 23 February 2010 - 08:49
Just what TNF is all about; keep the V.16 chat coming gentlemen.
#45
Posted 23 February 2010 - 23:46
Someone, somewhere has got a bit of history in an old box in the attic!
#46
Posted 24 February 2010 - 08:34
#47
Posted 04 December 2011 - 17:17
Without checking, I believe that Richardson went off on what today would be described as his 'out lap'. The spectators he hit included several members of Napier's design staff. Ken was notoriously very full of himself, widely regarded as a BS merchant, very much over-promoted by Raymond Mays who was much impressed - and possibly attracted - by him, and later extremely self-promoting.
DCN
Oh what a relief. So I am not a lone voice....
AAGR
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#48
Posted 04 December 2011 - 17:20
Ken spent quite a time telling me in great detail how he had set a faster lap time than everyone else including St Peter the Apostle during the V16s' brief practice appearance at Monza. It was a jolly good story. I was too polite to correct him at the time...but it was hard to watch someone of such experience, but so little apparent common sense, dig himself into an ever deeper hole. Nobody is perfect, but I must say I was not very impressed by his objectivity as a witness. His record as a racing driver was microscopic before he joined Standard-Triumph. Didn't he then became the unfortunate driver involved in the accident which so impaired his boss, Sir John Black's faculties...effectively changing the course of S-T history, admittedly (perhaps) for the better?
DCN
Yes he did. The car in question was a prototype Swallow Doretti, and the accident took place outside the gates of Standard's Banner Lane factory in Coventry.
AAGR