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Aussie sports sedans


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#451 MKI220

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 05:49

Jason will do more in a week on that Monza than it has had done to it in the last 20 years. He does not mess around so it is good to see him have his hands on it.

He is already chasing a set of BBS wheels which will not be cheap.

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#452 asa572

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 22:08

To be fair, the car has pretty much been in mothballs for 10+ years.

Jason is the right person to rebuild/restore it and I can't wait to see how it ends up.

Jason will do more in a week on that Monza than it has had done to it in the last 20 years.



#453 Darryltm

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 03:26

channel%2010_zpsmt8gmopb.jpgPhillip Island November 1973 


Edited by Darryltm, 10 February 2017 - 04:46.


#454 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 22:28

There seems to be a couple of HotRods towards the back of the field.

And a Torana seemingly coming to blows with an EH



#455 Shane Bowden

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 00:14

Humpy Holdens?



#456 Librules

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 15:24

A bit hard to tell due to pic quality, but that might be an early Falcon rather than an EH??



#457 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 22:38

It could be  an early Falcon, it has an FJ behind it but I dont think they are  Humpies behind.

Is anyone good at enhancing the pic. It would be interesting to see better



#458 cooper997

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 02:32

Another of the Ian Bridge Youtube posted footage features Symmons Plains in what at a guess must be 1975 - Gardner Corvair, McCormack Charger, Richards Mustang, etc. There's also bikes, then more sports sedans.

 

https://youtu.be/sFjBHJ-wZN8

 

and this from Baskerville

 

https://youtu.be/b0-twySXgbw

 

Stephen


Edited by cooper997, 17 May 2018 - 02:34.


#459 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 03:14

Originally posted by Darryltm
channel%2010_zpsmt8gmopb.jpgPhillip Island November 1973


That might be a Falcon back there with the sideways Torana... I'm thinking possibly Gene Cook's.


.

Edited by Ray Bell, 17 May 2018 - 03:15.


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#460 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 22:38

Another of the Ian Bridge Youtube posted footage features Symmons Plains in what at a guess must be 1975 - Gardner Corvair, McCormack Charger, Richards Mustang, etc. There's also bikes, then more sports sedans.

 

https://youtu.be/sFjBHJ-wZN8

 

and this from Baskerville

 

https://youtu.be/b0-twySXgbw

 

Stephen

So what ever happened to Richards Mustang?

One of those starts I feel Lou Stoopman was towards the back. And lots of Thommos VW. And a HDT Torana at Baskerville as well.

I suspect that was filmed in Super 8



#461 cooper997

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 02:47

Lee, I had some recollection that there's a thread on The Roaring Season about the car being in NZ.

 

After a bit of a google these links should help.

http://www.theroarin...dchrome-Mustang

 

http://www.nzmustang...s/sidchrome.htm

 

Appears Jim never actually owned the car.

 

Stephen



#462 Kenzclass

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 12:18

On a similar Jim Richards sports sedan tack, does anyone know if the Big M Falcon ever found a buyer, after the restorer ran out of puff.
Myles was selling it on his behalf, and looking for NZD225,000 way back in 2012.
The original TRS thread on it hasn’t been updated since 2015, at which time it was still for sale.

#463 SJ Lambert

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 20:21

At the 94 GP the Honda Chev was on pole driven by John Briggs. That is the Elfin built car that Greg Crick had built. K&A reengineered the rear suspension and from then on it was very quick in Cricks hands.The car is still around raced with ethusiasm by Charlie Senese from Qld. It was here at Mallalla last June.There was another built by Derek Van Zelm that was a little less radical though a well engineered car. That one is still racing in Victoria and since I am having a seniors moment cannot remember the drivers name!!CAMS really have never loved Sports Sedans and tried a few times to phase them out. I can remember a meeting here in Adelaide in the 90s with Schenken and his first word this meeting will not be about Sports Sedans, though it was!!.Though these days the ASSA have done a good job turning competitors off, the cars are now too heavy and they have the Trans Ams run with them.A good class just struggling along though can still put on some good raciing despite that.A 6litre car must be 1125kg with driver and my Torana was 1010, and Monterossos Escort was about 960. With all the extra fat it broke gearboxes very regularly. And to a degree broke the class.


Is the Crick Honda still with Charlie Senese Lee?

#464 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 04:01

Is the Crick Honda still with Charlie Senese Lee?

As far as I know. Last time I saw it on TV he was driving it.

I am quite out of touch these days with what happening. Used to see it on Speed Week and I seldom ever watch that now.

I saw Sports Sedans and run wot ya brung at Tailem Bend at their opening meeting. Either the rules have changed a lot or there is a lot of cheats!

Though Jack in the Audi and Tony in the Alfa where quite quick as too was Tom Randle. And they are Sports Sedans. 

And they are all old [but ofcourse deveopled] cars that I raced against when I quit in 2000!

Though main race Tony won and Tom Randle in real Sports Sedans were 1&2.

The rest? Marc Sports Cars turn up everywhere and are legal for nothing and IP cars are NOT Sports Sedans though some look like em!

The Tailem Bend round is on You Tube. Search Sports Sedans at Tailem Bend

 There was quite a few ex Sports Sedan racers in attendance as spectators, James Bartsch, James Rosenberg, Cos, Mick and Steve Monterosso, John Cook. Rob Smith Mark Blyfield and myself among several others. And that just South Aussies.



#465 Wuzak

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 13:17

Hi Lee,

 

I had the following video recommended on YouTube recently

 

 

And the onboard of the same race

 

 

 

It is the combined sedans race from the Bathurst 12h 2018 meeting, where Lacey set the new lap record for Sports Sedans, beating the record he set in 2017 of 2:12.924.

 

Which is in this video:

 

Note that the two cars in front are older V8Supercars, but I think they were 3rd and 4th at the time. The lead two cars, also old V8Supercars, were well in front, with the lead car doing a best lap in the low 2m10s range.

 

 

So I got curious, why isn't the lap record for Sports Sedans faster?

 

I checked some other tracks, and found that the Sports Sedan record at Philip Island is ~4s faster than the Supercars.

http://www.phillipis...ATED 230518.pdf

 

About 2s faster at Sandown

https://en.wikipedia...way#Lap_records

 

Also about 2s faster at Queensland Raceway

https://en.wikipedia...way#Lap_records

 

I tried checking The Bend, but it seems that the V8s used the short circuit, Sports Sedans used the International Circuit.

 

 

I looked at the rules to see what would be allowed.

It seems that the body has to be based on a production car that is sold in Australia, or a production car that has sold >5000 units world wide. Unless it is a Trans Am 1 (TA-1) spec body.

 

And the engine has to be based on a production engine block (>2500 built) of up to 6000cc equivalent capacity. Unless the engine is approved for use in NASCAR or Supercars. Which explains why many of them use NASCAR motors.

 

Steve Lacey's Comaro sounds, to me, like a NASCAR. Not just the engine, but the gearbox as well.

 

In contrast, the Randle Saab-Chevrolet sounds more like a V8Supercar, with its 6 speed sequential box.

 

 

Randle's is also fuel injected, whereas many continue to use the carby.

 

The same for the Audi/Chev, as driven by Jack Perkins

 

 

I believe RIcciardello still uses an H-pattern gearbox.

 

Finally, here are some pictures from the build of Kerry Bailey's DBR9-Chev

 

https://anygivenreas...9-sports-sedan/



#466 Wuzak

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 13:22

Wrote all that and forgot to ask:

 

Shouldn't the Sports Sedans be doing similar times to the GT3 cars, or better, at a track like Bathurst?



#467 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 23:50

V8 supercars will never give Sports Sedans and other faster classes a fair go at Bathurst. They get about 3 laps of practice and qualifying with a 50 plus car grid.

Most front runner Sports Sedans are injected and have been for decades. When I was racing 19 years ago there was very few carburetted cars. Probably two in the top 10 inc mine. Whatever is said injection is no huge advantage but cost a lot more and without a guru to make it work properly less reliable as well. It is though a good 20-30hp when working correctly. The true American Trans Am cars use a carb. As is/ was their rules. Only a couple run these days it seems. Des Wall was probably the last fast one and I feel that had injection?

As I said run wot ya brung these days. Too few real Sports Sedans.

Kerrys Aston was ?     Built here with piano hinge  lay down doors and a c/f body scaled up from a model it was last I saw running an LS Chev on a carb though that was 5 or 6 years ago. For various reasons he is retired, The car has been out about once in 3 years. 

What the rules are these days I am unsure, in the past it was original body with A B C pillars, standard doors and sill panels. Standard silouhette  and no extended sills etc. Chris Smerdon raced his GpA VL and then VP as a Sports Sedan a few times but was knocked back at championship level as the GpA body extensions and a few other things did not fit the then Sports Sedan rules. Grant Munday spent a year in GpA  Commy as well though with the body modded to SS. And I believe it was log booked as a SS and used a 350 Chev.  But both cars were quite porky and not as fast as a good Sports Sedan



#468 Wuzak

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 00:41

Rules allow for full carbon-fibre or fibreglass bodies, but these have to have the same profile of the production car. Unless it is an approved TA-1 body.

 

Extended wheel arches and sill extensions are allowed.

 

Weight is based on equivalent capacity, which 6,000cc is the maximum.

 

Weight for 6,000cc class is 1,125kg, for up to 5,100cc is (from memory) is 1,050kg.

 

Subtract 50kg for fwd, add 75kg for multi-valve engines. Add some more for 4wd.

 

There are two types of chassis allowed - full space frame, which are all required to be rwd, and "floor plan" cars, which can be fwd, rwd or 4wd.

 

 

I wouldn't have thought that fuel injection would give much, if any, more top end power. The advantage of fuel injection would be, I think, in the low and mid range of the engine.

 

I think the problem for Sports Sedans is that they don't get the exposure and the money to run the cars is scarce. Which means some decent cars don't get taken out of the garage.

 

Years ago, which I'm sure I find when I go through this thread, Sports Sedans were a big deal and were driven by the top drivers in the country. Now it seems to be mainly amateurs.

 

I watched a short bit of a video of a race from last year's Trans Am series. And they seem to be in the same situation.



#469 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 01:23

Rules allow for full carbon-fibre or fibreglass bodies, but these have to have the same profile of the production car. Unless it is an approved TA-1 body.

 

Extended wheel arches and sill extensions are allowed.

 

Weight is based on equivalent capacity, which 6,000cc is the maximum.

 

Weight for 6,000cc class is 1,125kg, for up to 5,100cc is (from memory) is 1,050kg.

 

Subtract 50kg for fwd, add 75kg for multi-valve engines. Add some more for 4wd.

 

There are two types of chassis allowed - full space frame, which are all required to be rwd, and "floor plan" cars, which can be fwd, rwd or 4wd.

 

 

I wouldn't have thought that fuel injection would give much, if any, more top end power. The advantage of fuel injection would be, I think, in the low and mid range of the engine.

 

I think the problem for Sports Sedans is that they don't get the exposure and the money to run the cars is scarce. Which means some decent cars don't get taken out of the garage.

 

Years ago, which I'm sure I find when I go through this thread, Sports Sedans were a big deal and were driven by the top drivers in the country. Now it seems to be mainly amateurs.

 

I watched a short bit of a video of a race from last year's Trans Am series. And they seem to be in the same situation.

Mostly the same cars and drivers from 25 years ago. And more. Amatuer? Not really. Over the decades there has been plenty of drivers I raced against and beat then by spending a LOT of money drove Supercars. A modicum of talent and plenty of bucks buys you a Supercar seat.

At most tracks a good Sports Sedan and driver is faster than Supercars. Not by much.  But the budget for a Supercar teams lunches per year is more than most Sports Sedans run on. And one set of tyres per meeting V about 6 sets too helps their pace. Though race pace on their cheese tyres is seldom great except the first few laps.

Currently, or at least last year several drivers and cars cannot make the control? Kuhmo tyres work either. I suspect a reason why a few are not playing.



#470 Wuzak

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 03:40

Apparently some state championships use different tyres to the national series.

 

And, yes, the tyres are control spec.

 

 

Edit: National series use Kumho tyres, NSW use Hankook.


Edited by Wuzak, 14 January 2019 - 09:07.


#471 Wuzak

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 03:41

Amateur may not have been the right word. Certainly most aren't full time drivers.



#472 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:18

Amateur may not have been the right word. Certainly most aren't full time drivers.

None are full time drivers, several however have done the series for a long time.. Which makes then full time drivers for the category. Usually 6-10 drivers do the full series  even if only for one year. I doubt any are paid to race. That includes Jack Perkins. The Audi is very fast but a bit unreliable. Darren Hossack used to drive it until he damaged his leg in a midget crash. I think he still crews on it however.

Several others do a few rounds, usually the closest to base. Both money and time is usually the problem as most are self employed to find the time to prepare a car and go racing. 

As I did in up until 2000. SA and Vic rounds. Plus bigger shows in both states. But while I was earning enough to do it I struggled to find time to actually go racing. Leave Thursday for practice Friday and then qualifying and a race Sat, Race  Sunday then head home maybe Monday Morn but sometimes drive back Sunday night.  And then work 6 days a week to pay for it all!!

And the same for many. Hence the  cars sometimes  lacking a little in prep or presentation.

And think about coming from WA is the Ricciardelos have for decades. Or Tassy as Bruce Banks and at times a couple of others have done.

Even if you leave the cars at a more popular location that is ok until severe breakages or crashes require the cars back to home base. Personally I went right over the car between events so it had to come back here. Though that is 8-9 hours each way. Plus truck maintenance as well.

I am going to play at Mt Gambier with the classic Super Mod and have worked until 8.30 doing minor jobs. Even got washed! Drive down Thursday and home Friday. 1200km return. And load up Tues arvo ready for off Thurs morning.



#473 Wuzak

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 14:13

Used to watch Buce Banks in his older RX7 Sports Sedan at Baskerville. 

 

Usually the last race of the meeting will be an all-in (tin tops) handicap race over 5 or 6 laps. Banks would start just after the first cars had completed their first laps, and would still win.

 

Ricciardellos have, indeed, had it tough for all those years. Not many nation series races in the west all those years.

 

I thought I saw Darren Hossack's name on an entry list for 2019, but can't find it now.



#474 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 01:10

Used to watch Buce Banks in his older RX7 Sports Sedan at Baskerville. 

 

Usually the last race of the meeting will be an all-in (tin tops) handicap race over 5 or 6 laps. Banks would start just after the first cars had completed their first laps, and would still win.

 

Ricciardellos have, indeed, had it tough for all those years. Not many nation series races in the west all those years.

 

I thought I saw Darren Hossack's name on an entry list for 2019, but can't find it now.

Darren may well be on a list as a co driver for John Gourlay as I believe Jack is not always available.

Bruce and Michael Elliot raced here at Mallala a few times. Bruce was never reliable. Michael was and quite quick. This in the mid 90s. The current car too was a bit reliability challenged as well. And had had a lot of money spent on it. Gearbox and diff were big dollar items.

Back in the 80s we had quite a few come from the West on a semi regular basis. Dick Ward, Craig Marsland, Joe father of Daniel Ricciardo Peter Finch, Rob Solomon and Steve James among others. The Steve James car was the car I bought an owner later which then got so modified over 20 years.

The Austin 7 Club twin state challenge brought quite a few cars over here for 2 or 3 years. And SA cars too the West.

Then the GP support events also had quite a few over here. That is around the time Ricciardellos started racing nationally first with Brian Smith then later Tony as driver. And from the 'old' Alfa that went to Joe Ricciardo to the current K and A built car they are still racing nearly 30 years later. A car I watched being built over a year or so. Though has been extensivly modified in that time.


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 15 January 2019 - 01:24.


#475 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 09:47

Someone raised the engine capacities for cars without 6 litre capacity factory. It was early 80s at the demise of GT. Edmondsens Alfa raced as a Sports Sedan with a 5 litre engine and after GT with a 6 litre, as did Toranas and quite a few others. 83-84? In that period a 350 was a lot cheaper than a 302 Chev.

The reason my car went Chev power in the mid 80s. It was cheaper than a Irving head for the 6. I bought a Monaro with supposedly good engine and had a stock 2bbl gunker to replace it and sell it on. The so called good engine was a real patch up. one crank journal had been  hard chromed and some doggy work on the heads. In the end all I used was the block, rods and pistons with another s/h used cast crank and I did a pair of fuellies that I bought elsewhere.

While that deal was too much work as it turned out I learnt that Trading Post was handy for parts and the next engine was built from an imported 350  short and most of the rest was bought from Trading Post adds, new forged pistons, rings bearings, timing set, triple plate clutch,roller rockers, decent quality valves, intake manifold and I reused the heads from the first engine. I sold on 2 engines built from bits, too much work but very few bucks out of my pocket.



#476 Wuzak

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 22:46

Bruce and Michael Elliot raced here at Mallala a few times. Bruce was never reliable. Michael was and quite quick. This in the mid 90s. 

 

There were only a small number of Sports Sedans that ran at Baskerville years ago when I went to watch.

 

I remember Banks. But there was also a Capri and a TE Cortina. 

 

The name Elliot rings a bell - did he run a Cortina?



#477 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 00:58

There were only a small number of Sports Sedans that ran at Baskerville years ago when I went to watch.

 

I remember Banks. But there was also a Capri and a TE Cortina. 

 

The name Elliot rings a bell - did he run a Cortina?

At a guess Tony Jory ran the  TE Cortina V8. That went to Frank Sola in Victoria.  Michael raced a Fiat 124 rotary.  I have seen his name recently somewhere competing in a RX7.



#478 Wuzak

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 14:18

At a guess Tony Jory ran the  TE Cortina V8. That went to Frank Sola in Victoria.  Michael raced a Fiat 124 rotary.  I have seen his name recently somewhere competing in a RX7.

 

Is that rotary FIAT 124 one that races in the NSW Sport Sedan series now?



#479 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 11:07

Is that rotary FIAT 124 one that races in the NSW Sport Sedan series now?

Joe Said has been racing that one probably longer than Michael did. In fact longer because he is still racing it. It has been around, though I feel in several forms since the 80s. 

This just by watching TV and reading reports. I may have raced against it once at PI in the mid 90s. The only time you see most of the field is on the dummy grid, or maybe in practice/ Quali. After that you see cars you are racing with and if you have time :p  you see the front runners slowly disapearing for  half the race. And by that time  usually you are lapping tail enders as well. It was generally fairly busy in the back half of the top 10.

And a variety of cars, Old Touring Cars, GTs, chicken cookers, turbo 4s plus the usual V8s and even then Club Cars and Commodore Cup cars of which there seemed to be about 50 of!

One Winton meeting on Friday there was a road going SS Commy plus a few HQs which you seemed to meet every second lap.



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#480 Wuzak

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 13:06

I found out from a video of this weekend's support categories for the 12h that the combined sedans race has a lap time limit of 2m10s. Basically in order to fit the slower cars into the qualifying cap.



#481 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 01:08

I found out from a video of this weekend's support categories for the 12h that the combined sedans race has a lap time limit of 2m10s. Basically in order to fit the slower cars into the qualifying cap.

Support categories,,, from the medias view a huge secret. Unless you looked at Natsoft they never happened!

As for speed limiting, it seems not just there either. 

I read that one of the MARC cars was pinged for going too fast as well. Though the MARC cars do not seem to fit into any criteria anywhere. Run wot ya brung!

Shades of drag racing going through the traps hard on the brakes because you do not have the right rollcage or hanky to slow you down!



#482 Wuzak

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 02:23

There were two limits for MARC cars.

 

2m05s for MARC 1 and 2m12s for MARC 2. IIRC.

 

Saw it in this video:

 

9 hours, includes support categories and 12h qualifying.

 

The Combined Sedans ("run wot ya brung") starts at about 8:30:30.



#483 ellrosso

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 07:17

IMHO the best Aussie Sports Sedan - so amazing to see this live at Calder in 19733344-S-VWChev-74-lo.jpg4848-N-VWChev-74-lo.jpg4847-N-VWChev-74-lojpg.jpg2171-R-VWChev-73-lo.jpg! What a gun car.....



#484 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 10:23

IMHO the best Aussie Sports Sedan - so amazing to see this live at Calder in 19733344-S-VWChev-74-lo.jpg4848-N-VWChev-74-lo.jpg4847-N-VWChev-74-lojpg.jpg2171-R-VWChev-73-lo.jpg! What a gun car.....

And a very sad end. Pushed out under the trees then burnt in a fire. Would be a great GpU car these days