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The 'worst' driver to win a World Championship?


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#51 MattFoster

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Posted 27 November 2000 - 23:13

Actually it was Gretel

:)

Cheers
Matt

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#52 oldtimer

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Posted 28 November 2000 - 00:34

Thanks for that one, Barry. I laughed so hard I nearly fell off my soap-box.

#53 Dennis David

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Posted 28 November 2000 - 04:00

I'm really proud of the tone that is being maintained on this thread and judging from the posts there is no clear winner/loser. Which shows that a bit of luck and a lot more skill was involved in all of the championships discussed here.

#54 jmcgavin

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Posted 28 November 2000 - 09:28

Absolutely, I've no problem with his wins in 81 and 83, plus as mentioned before he showed a tremendous amount of dedication in developing the BMW engine with the Brabham

This rather goes with what others were saying about the championship in general in that in 1987 the title didn't go to either fastest driver or the most complete driver at the time.

Its not a Mansell based dislike though Interesting to see him refuse to admonish supporters running onto the track at the end of the British GP while the race was still running, being a model of consistency I presume if he'd been chasing someone for a points placing at Monza the same year and the same thing happened if a Ferrari had won he would have said the same thing.....or am I mistaken.

The Williams pits must have been a den of joy and happiness during 86 and 87



#55 Huw Jenjin

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Posted 28 November 2000 - 12:30

"This sort of thread is for the Readers forum, I will close it down"
You guys don't have any relations in the British Royal family do you? Similar expressions

"Little children should be seen and not heard"

"Let them eat cake"

"We are not amused"

Pompous.There is nothing wrong with the thread at all. Why should we all just utter glorification and praise for ancient heroes? Why is it polite to write pages about someone who in your opinions never got the breaks he deserved, but blindly glide over characters who lucked into the right car at the right time.
IMHO there isn't a single undeserving world champion, but that ain't the point. Closing the thread because you don't like the subject smells of "power corupts".

#56 CVAndrw

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Posted 28 November 2000 - 17:41

Originally posted by jmcgavin
The Williams pits must have been a den of joy and happiness during 86 and 87


Compared to the Marketing Department at Honda, they probably were!

And regarding 1987: sometimes the Championship, as in this case, has gone to the driver who was most consistent, who was able to force his sometimes quicker rivals into making mistakes (i.e. Mansell, Suzuka qualifying) while avoiding makng his own. I can think of other examples: 84, 83, 82, 81, 80, 77...to me, those are the hardest earned and most deserved Championships. The whole concept behind the WDC is that of a season-long prize you struggle to win, not an honor you are awarded simply by dint of being generally perceived as "fastest".

I've always had the ultimate respect for those drivers who could win with their heads when they couldn't with their right feet. So perhaps, by my logic, the "worst" driver to win the World Championship is the one most deserving of praise!

#57 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 November 2000 - 09:28

Good point, CV, we'll have to remember that one...
and Huge, please understand that this isn't a personal dig, just that I feel your history needs a bit of a brush-up. The French royal family was responsible for the cake comment.
As for Don, I a staggered.... 'FJ' does not stand for 'Fast John'!
Where is Fast One when you need him?

#58 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 29 November 2000 - 17:17

Re: Hawthorn. Read the last couple of chapters of Champion Year, including his post season chapter and you'll know that after Collins' death at the Nurburgring, Hawthorn was already contemplating retirement.

Also. Back in those halcyon days of front engined cars with skinny tires, there was a thing called "team orders," and letting the person with the most to gain into a higher position.

SPORTSMANSHIP! CHIVALRY! CAMARADERIE!

These words do not trip lightly off the tongues of today's F-1 stars.

Collins turning his car over to Fangio at Monza.

New man on the Ferrari Formula One team Phil Hill, acting as a "rabbit," for his team leader, knew he had secured his place at Ferrari for the next year.

Gil Bouffard

#59 Barry Boor

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Posted 29 November 2000 - 20:38

Fair enough, Gil. Point taken.

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#60 Barry Boor

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Posted 29 November 2000 - 20:39

But I still don't think he really deserved it.

#61 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 29 November 2000 - 21:11

Barry,

You have your opinion....I have mine....

I go back to my original premise: "Think about this... It is not so much how he does it or who it is that wins the Formula One World Championship, as it is what they do after they have won the championship!

Do they give anything back? And by that, I mean. Do they give anything back to the fans?

The Maestro, Phil Hill, Denny Hulme, Jack Brabham, James Hunt, John Surtees, Emerson, and Jackie Stewart are champions that come to mind when thinking about returning something.

Prost, Lauda, Jones, Piquet? Too busy to be bothered. Mario? Protected by his entourage..."

The Gilster

#62 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 November 2000 - 22:01

Twice now this Mario entourage has been mentioned... what is this about?
Jones did start a Formula Ford team, but it was mainly aimed at getting Christian racing, I think... maybe it only collapsed, however, when his marriage fell in a heap.. Not sure of the details.

#63 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 29 November 2000 - 22:19

Ray,

Have you ever seen Mario without a phalanx surrounding him?

Gil

#64 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 November 2000 - 23:14

Only ever saw him once, and then I didn't take any notice. So what do they do?

#65 Viss1

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 12:21

I can't believe Denny Hulme is even mentioned in a "worst" list. Not only was Denny an F1 WC, but he also managed to win the Can Am Championship at about the same time. Guys from that era had a much more well-rounded resume than today's drivers.

#66 Viss1

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 12:21

I can't believe Denny Hulme is even mentioned in a "worst" list. Not only was Denny an F1 WC, but he also managed to win the Can Am Championship at about the same time. Guys from that era had a much more well-rounded resume than today's drivers.

#67 Chris Bloom

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 21:19

Originally posted by jk
Hi all Experts!


Sorry but; Damon Hill!: Hate to say this, but he was clearly a good driver, but not a great at all. The clearly best car gave him his WC.

Sorry if something is wrong.
What do you think?


Of course lots of other drivers have dominated Grand Prix in Arrows cars before and since Hungary 1997!

Of course Damon would have been a double world champion had Micheal Schumacher not punted him out of the 1994 Australian GP, though that is something for the cheating thread I think!

Chris

#68 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 21:44

Chris: there's a case coming up in the Atlas F1 Court in acouple of days that might interest you ....
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=23482

#69 David M. Kane

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 21:46

A big part of being a World Champion is the ability to be in the right car at the right time, in the right season and everything fall into place through all the various cicumstances that happen throughout a season.

If Von Trips hadn't been distracted by his bad start at Monza he wouldn't have crashed and been killed...but he did and Phil didn't.

One of the reasons Denis Hulme was a Champion was because he was
tougher physically than the rest. Alan Jones was a pretty tough
cookie and he let every one of the other drivers know it. Its called "gamemanship".

Carlos Reutemann, on the other hand, gave away his best shot at
a Championship because he wasn't TOUGH enough. However, he was clearly the most talented guy on the grid at the time in my opinion.

It takes a lot to be a Champion, hard work, talent, salesmanship
and psychology.

In other words, there are no lucky World Champions. Plus, you only have to win one to get your name in the book.

I think for Jody Scheckter and James Hunt to even complete the weekend at Watkins Glen after they saw what happened to Francois to me shows that they deserved to be Champions.

I'm not sure what I've said here; but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

#70 Schummy

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Posted 15 June 2001 - 22:36

Every regular F1 driver is a great driver. Every F1 WDC is extraordinary. That said, my list of no-so-good-WDCs is:

Denny Hulme
John Surtees
Keke Rosberg

Hulme: He led few kms respect his amount of GPs. Just one pole position. Obviously he had strong points, and he was a versatile driver.

Surtees: Just 6 wins is too few for a "normal" WDC. He led few laps (so he was not let down by mechanical failures). Only was a contender in 1966 and then he was second far off Brabham. Appart from glorious memories in certain races (who I sadly could not see), he is a semigod to me because he is WDC in bikes and F1! I can't think of this feat nowadays.

Rosberg: 5 wins, 3 fastest lap is scarce. Far of WDC except in 1982. His spectacular style of driving always was favourite for me. I loved his manouvres, I was fan of Keke.

I will repeat it: I LIKE these drivers, I could see and read about them and I just argue about them in the very exclusive WDC club.

I could think about others drivers: Hunt, Scheckter, etc. But Hunt led many races; Scheckter was 2nd in 1977, two times 3rd... too much to discount him. About others drivers I find some reason to avoid discard them, or I don't know much about them (pre-69 years)


#71 Pikachu Racing

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Posted 16 June 2001 - 06:40

I would say Damon Hill. This guy would choke when it comes to pressure. He even almost lost the championship to a then-rookie Jacques Villeneuve that year. It was after his championship that he slowly go into a decline first with Arrows, despite some decent runs but something manages to fail in the car, and Jordan where it went downward in his final year.

#72 Chris Bloom

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Posted 16 June 2001 - 07:50

Originally posted by Pikachu Racing
I would say Damon Hill. This guy would choke when it comes to pressure


Spa 1993, Suzuka 1994, Suzuka 1996, Spa 1998

Damon was under extreme pressure in all these races and yet never cracked. I admit he did make mistakes, especially during 1995 but no driver is exempt from mistakes.

To say he choked when under pressure is not really true.

Chris

#73 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 14:55

Just to give a new kick

You named most for worst WDCs
Hulme
No, fighter acchieved a lot in CanAm, was on trems with Hill in 68 Championship in a new team, won nearly in every year when he was in F1
Not the best burt a worthy Champion

Hill, D
No
Hold team spirits up like his father did in 68 with team Lotus, in 95 near to Schumacher, did well with Arrows and Jordan later. I think he wasn't in reach of 1994 Championship. Schumacher was banned for two races and was disqualified winning Spa with dubious reasons. But Hill got his well rewarded championship in 96

Rosberg
No
a real fight good on every circuit and car
In my opinion a real Champion

Surtees
No
was fast from the beginnig with Lotus and Lola, would have been champion in 1966 if Ferrari ...
developed Honda
A driver champion but as Teamowner/manager he had nothing of a champ

Jones
mmh
Yes he was fast but ruined it with Arrows and Beatrice later. Gave Shadow their only win. A deserved champ in 1980 but surely not one of the greatest

Scheckter
mmh
was fast on McLaren & Tyrell, had one of the best cars in 79 but Giles was on equal terms and a very popular would have been champ.
Ruined all in 1980 doing one of the worst jobs ever seen. Had better quit one year before.

Hill, P.
Yes

What did he acchive before? He made 8 F1 races against Trips on equel terms with same material Ferrari 256

				TRIPS		   HILL

			 pract.  Race	pract.  Race	  

   

1958 GP I	  6.	 dnf	 7.	  4.

1959 GP USA	6.	 6.	  8.	  dnf

1960 GP MC	 8.	 8.	  10.	 3.

1960 GP NL	 14.	5.	  12.	 dnf

1960 GP B	  10.	dnf	 3.	  4.

1960 GP GB	 7.	 6.	  10.	 7.

1960 GP POR	9.	 4.	  10.	 dnf



1961 GP MC	 5.	 4.	  5.	  3.

1961 GP NL	 1.	 1.	  1.	  2.

1961 GP B	  2.	 2.	  1.	  1.

1961 GP F	  2.	 dnf	 1.	  9.

1961 GP GB	 1.	 1.	  1.	  1.

1961 GP D	  5.	 2.	  1.	  3.

1961 GP I	  1.			 4.
They were equal till the end so it is philosophical if Trips or Hill would have won the WDC if Taffy hadn't his accident.
But what achieved Hill else. 62 was a politic year. He and Ferrari were also runs in F1, 63 was a desaster. And Hill wasn't abel to develop the team or bring it upwards. 64 he went to Cooper, not the highlight then in F1 but a good team. But he was only no 2 behind Bruce McLaren and never able to beat him - a real disapointment.
What else he won some long distance (LM) race with Ferrari against other Ferraris apart from the years before 1960 and had a lucky win at the Ring 66 and Brands 67 with Chaparral. So not impressing at all besides his poor F1 results. In 61 he had a very supirior car so he became champ. But if the british teams had the V8 ....
a World Champ is a Word Champ but in comparison he is on the bottom of the list.

#74 jj2728

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 20:02

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker

What else he won some long distance (LM) race with Ferrari against other Ferraris apart from the years before 1960 and had a lucky win at the Ring 66 and Brands 67 with Chaparral. So not impressing at all besides his poor F1 results.


Those long distance races were Lemans 3 times and The Sebring 12 hours 3 times. I'd say fairly impressive.

#75 Tmeranda

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 20:26

Originally posted by Antti
Surtees ???? You must be kidding !!!

One could for arguments sake say that the name Hill does not imply supremely talented WC - Phil, Graham and Damon. None of them could be called as one of the greats...

Cheers

Antti


What color is the sky ih your world? Phil was one of the best sports car drivers ever and kept the front engined Ferrari at the sharp end of the grid even when it was well past its sell by date. Let see just how many times did GH win Monte Carlo? Not too shabby. And DH is one of the most under rated GP drivers of all time. His statistics easly put him in the top 10 and well ahead of some very famous names.

#76 macoran

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 20:33

Originally posted by Don Capps
In my opinion, this is the sort of thing that belongs on the Readers' Comments Forum and not here. Very poor choice of words for the title of this thread.

Therefore, I will close this thread in few hours unless there is some compelling argument not to do. And believe me, it better be good.

BTW: I have serious problems with threads such as this on this Forum. This sort thing is not why the Forum exists.



I must be loony
Twin Window is the host of this forum....I presume that is like a moderator/administrator ?
How can somebody else close a thread ?

#77 Tmeranda

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 20:39

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
Ray,

Have you ever seen Mario without a phalanx surrounding him?

Gil


Yes. I have had severa one on one conversations with Mario at race track all over the world and seperated by 10 or more years. He was always approachable and friendly. Lately I have have a long nice chat with him at his vineyard in Napa, where he proved as interested in wine as his was in motor sports. I have met may GP drivers who were too full of themselves to even let a fan close. I spent a long elevator ride as the only passenger along with GV who was about as rude as it gets. He didn't have the time of day even when he had nothing else to do. Mansell was just a bad. But Mario was and still is always open to his fans.

#78 turin

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 20:55

Originally posted by macoran



I must be loony
Twin Window is the host of this forum....I presume that is like a moderator/administrator ?
How can somebody else close a thread ?


Perhaps things and positions change in time? The thread is about 7 years old, and I don't know who was the moderator then.

#79 macoran

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 21:38

Oef !!!
Must get new glasses.
Thanks

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#80 scheivlak

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 22:33

Originally posted by turin


Perhaps things and positions change in time? The thread is about 7 years old, and I don't know who was the moderator then.

But I know... His initials? DC.

BTW it's scandalous and outrageous to call his Brands Hatch 1967 win "lucky". Have a look at the grid at http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc1967.html
It was supreme win in what was for Ferrari and Porsche a championship decider against drivers like Amon, Stewart, Surtees, Hulme, Siffert, McLaren, Rindt and the list goes on and on.....

#81 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 04:54

Perhaps things and positions change in time? The thread is about 7 years old, and I don't know who was the moderator then.


I was the moderator then. I have not a clue as to why this miserable piece of shit was not just locked but deleted.

#82 Vicuna

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 12:10

This is my first post of 2007 and I'm agreeing with HDonald Research. :stoned:

There is no place for such a thread here IMO.

#83 D-Type

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 12:31

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
I was the moderator then. I have not a clue as to why this miserable piece of shit was not just locked but deleted

Could this be why?

Originally posted by Don Capps
I didn't close this thread since I think it got into the right track -- or close enough.

Winning championships is a bit like making sausage, not a very pretty process. Like many of my cohort, the 1958 season rather changed my mind about championships. It wasn't that we didn't like Mike -- scarcely the case at all! We liked him quite a bit -- it was that it dawned on some of us that Championships are not everything.


As to the point of contention, I feel the thread title should have been changed seven years ago to read "The least deserving driver to win the championship"

This would more truly reflect the content of the thread. The vast majority of posters have taken the attitude that 'all regular GP drivers are great or at least very good drivers' and world champions are greater still. Opinions have then been expressed in the context of 'Out of the select few drivers who have won the championship I consider that - - - - was less great than the others because ...' By implication they are being judged on a standard of excellence not mere greatness. I therefore don't have a problem with the thread content.

Although I have opinions on the subject they are not sufficiently strong that I have felt I can articulate a case so I have not made a posting.

#84 ensign14

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 13:29

Pete Aron. Quite apart from putting his much more talented team-mate out of action at Monaco, he fluked a win in Italy after Sarti died and Barlini pulled out, and had to rely on Stoddard missing half the season to nick it by a point. And after stopping Sarti from passing him at Brands by belching flames all over him.

Worst World Champ? Probably one of those gentlemen drivers who can claim to be a world sportscar champion by getting a Nielsen or a Bellm to do all the hard work.

#85 E.B.

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 13:31

Originally posted by D-Type
As to the point of contention, I feel the thread title should have been changed seven years ago to read "The least deserving driver to win the championship"


That may have then shifted the focus onto talking about specific seasons rather than drivers' entire careers (eg. Piquet in 1987 may have been considered "undeserving", but taken as a whole his career was of course worthy of at least one championship).

I suspect the whole debate would have been less heated as a result (which may or may not be a good thing), as we would be debating the quirks of a particular season rather than making criticisms (implied or otherwise) of a driver's talents.

If I have to nominate anyone as an answer to the actual question posed, I go for Chris Eubank.

#86 David M. Kane

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 13:50

Rock on HDonald!

#87 ensign14

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 13:58

Originally posted by E.B.

If I have to nominate anyone as an answer to the actual question posed, I go for Chris Eubank.

He was phenomenal until he nearly killed Michael Watson and from then he seemingly refused to go for knock-outs.

#88 Sergio Sultani

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 14:36

The worst: Phil Hill. :down:

The best: 'THE BLACK JACK' Jack Brabham. :up:

SS.

#89 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 15:32

Originally posted by Sergio Sultani
The worst: Phil Hill. :down:


I rest my case for killing this shit.

I was wrong to let this slimely piece of garbage live. I should have trusted my instincts and zapped this mother into another galaxy.

#90 LaRascasse

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 18:12

I do not see what is wrong with an open discussion about a relevant topic. All manner of things are discussed here concerning the history of motorsport. Why is this topic any different? After all, historians discuss who was a better president, and so forth.

I have heard alot of complaining about why this should not be here, but I do not remember reading any good and specific reason why it does not belong.

What I think DOES NOT belong, however, is the profanity and uncivil tone that this topic has seemed to extract from people normally unassociated with such behavior.

#91 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 18:33

Well, LaRascasse, while I might almost agree with you under normal circumstances, but there is a context to this thread that sparks my condemnation and fuming. It is also obvious that I am wasting my time trying to excise this shit off the face of the earth.

#92 David Beard

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 20:30

Originally posted by Sergio Sultani
The worst: Phil Hill. :down:
.


You do follow motor racing????

Sometimes Mr Capps is right.

#93 Lemans

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 20:49

H. Don you are right on. How can one cite onw WDC as worst and the other the best? It is asine.

#94 LaRascasse

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 21:18

I think what one must remember is that all of the World Champions were tremendous drivers. When one considers the amalgam of attributes one must possess to become World Champion, from raw talent, to testicular fortitude (can you begin to even imagine getting into some of the equipment some of these guys have been willing to push to the limit at some very scary venues), to a whole set of intangibles that we cannot comprehend nor articulate, these men all deserve the title of World Champion. In their respective years, each one them out did all other competitors who were involved in the same endeavor.

Keep in mind too that to even have an opportunity to become World Champion (to be given the keys to a winning car) generally requires more than a little skill. Otherwise we would all be doing it, rather than sitting at our little computers writing about it.

To compare various World Champions is merely speculation. And, while I support anyone's desire to speculate, on this forum or any other, it is rather unfruitful and unsatisfying. To truly evaluate such a thing would require a time machine and equal equipment and equal circumstances. Good luck with that.

#95 David M. Kane

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 22:33

At the best "worst" implies something negative. There is nothing negative about being one of the few to actually drive an F1 or actually win a title. It's like who was was the "worst" team to win the
World Cup? Excuse me?

#96 sterling49

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 22:38

I never saw Phil Hill in a sharknose or any F1 car for that matter, but from what I have read, I reckon that he was as worthy a Champion as they all are. By definition, they are "World Champions", that is to say, no driver better than them in that year. He was also magnificent on April 7th 1968 in the Chapparal at Brands Hatch, 7 years after his Championship he was still winning International races :up:

#97 Antoine Pilette

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 22:41

Fangio!








joking :)

#98 E.B.

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 22:47

Originally posted by sterling49
He was also magnificent on April 7th 1968 in the Chapparal at Brands Hatch, 7 years after his Championship he was still winning International races :up:


Wasn't that 67?

#99 sterling49

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 22:58

Originally posted by E.B.


Wasn't that 67?


:rolleyes: memory fade........... :smoking:

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#100 kayemod

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 10:44

Originally posted by Sergio Sultani
The best: 'THE BLACK JACK' Jack Brabham. :up:

SS.


You do follow motor racing????

Sometimes Mr Capps is right.