239 replies to this topic

[teegeefla]

What are the easiest ways to differentiate the Maserati T60 and T61 cars? From photos they seem the same.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Colours apart , in my opinion absolutely none. But over the years there was small differences such as the bulk on the front (big , small, open,closed) , headrest or rollover bar , lights (glass or blended ,) windscreen hight , and then the long bodied T61 for LM. Also in private regie the most significant : the Ferrari V12 installed. But all specifications apart from the engine sizes and hereby weight , bhp and speed , no difference at all. Buy the new book of Oosthoek and Bollee , a superb work on a superb car.

[proviz]

According to Joel E. Finn both models were outwardly identical - in principle - but allowing for the fact that: "It is unlikely any two Tipo 60/61s carried identical bodies. Maserati was quite happy to customize the body shape, cockpit... ...to suit the customer".
(Maserati Birdcage, ISBN 0 85045 366 6)

[hansfohr]

What are the easiest ways to differentiate the Maserati T60 and T61 cars? From photos they seem the same.

The most significant difference can be seen if you open the bonnet. The T60 was fitted with a 2.0L engine, the T61 was powered by a 250S 2.9L unit.

Edited by hansfohr, 23 February 2010 - 10:13.

[David McKinney]

And was it easy to tell which was which just by looking?

[RA Historian]

The easiest way to tell them apart via a quick glance is the bulge on the hood to clear the Weber intakes. On the T-60 the bulge is noticeably higher than on the T-61 as the intakes were longer on the two liter.
Tom

[Roger Clark]

I thought that the 61 had larger carburetters, mounted more nearly horizontal, this giving rise to the smaller bonnet bulge mentioned above and providing the way to tell the engines apart, just by looking.

[Giraffe]

I thought that the 61 had larger carburetters, mounted more nearly horizontal, this giving rise to the smaller bonnet bulge mentioned above and providing the way to tell the engines apart, just by looking.

Here is Alan Minshaw's T61 at Cholmondeley last year with presumably the smaller bonnet bulge.



By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-02-23

[Doug Nye]

Ah - but aren't we thinking of T60 v. T61 differences as made by Maserati?

DCN

[Giraffe]

Ah - but aren't we thinking of T60 v. T61 differences as made by Maserati?

DCN

Do I detect a worm struggling to exit a can?

[RA Historian]

I thought that the 61 had larger carburetters, mounted more nearly horizontal, this giving rise to the smaller bonnet bulge mentioned above and providing the way to tell the engines apart, just by looking.

You may well be right. I thought the difference it the bonnet bulge was due to the intake stakes, but your thought may well be right. At least one of us is!

Ah - but aren't we thinking of T60 v. T61 differences as made by Maserati?

DCN

Well, I suspect that Minshaw's car may have the original shift knob... (if nothing else!)
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 23 February 2010 - 22:52.

[Giraffe]

Whilst on the subject...........


http://forums.autosp...p;#entry4169113

see post #362 onwards

[Giraffe]

These pics are posted today on the 'Autosport' thread, but they really belong here.

Testing at Mallory Park today...........


By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-14

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-14

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-14

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-14

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-14

Edited by Giraffe, 14 April 2010 - 21:31.

[Michael_Delaney]

These pics are posted today on the 'Autosport' thread, but they really belong here.

Testing at Mallory Park today...........


By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-14

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-14

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-14

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-14

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-14

Ah, the famous "Streamliner". I assume its chassis 2451.

MD

[Giraffe]

It's 2451, the Camoradi car crashed on the Targa Florio and rebodied with the low drag screen and long tail, Michael.

[bradbury west]

Unless I am wrong, and I have not checked the books and magazines here, I always understood the screen arrangement was to do with the period screen regulations, not streamlining. I recall shots of Bertocchi testing it in period originally, unpainted, with a shaped aluminium mock-up for the screen
Roger Lund

[Bjorn Kjer]

Correct Roger , after the silly Le Mans rules in 1960 they were changed later the same year.

[Giraffe]

By giraffe138 at 2010-04-14
On track today.

[Bloggsworth]

How prescient of Masarati to provide a bottle holder in their car. How did they know that bottled water was the future...

[David McKinney]

And enough holders for a 24hr race

[Giraffe]

And enough holders for a 24hr race

Surely then they would have had a flask (or several?)

[raceannouncer2003]

Surely then they would have had a flask (or several?)

A lot of little bottles might be lighter than a big flask???

Vince H.

[Giraffe]

A lot of little bottles might be lighter than a big flask???

Vince H.

Oooh, I'm not sure about that, Vince............

http://storage.fanta...mos_section.pdf

[RA Historian]

I see where chassis Number 2459 is up for auction. This is the number of the car that was destroyed at Daytona in Feb., 1962, in Augie Pabst's almighty crash. What was left of the car was subsequently scrapped. If this "replica" has anything more than the original gearshift knob in it I would be surprised. Yet another fake being palmed off as the real thing.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 15 April 2010 - 20:41.

[Alan Cox]

I see where chassis Number 2459 is up for auction. This is the number of the car that was destroyed at Daytona in Feb., 1962, in Augie Pabst's almighty crash. What was left of the car was subsequently scrapped. If this "replica" has anything more than the original gearshift knob in it I would be surprised. Yet another fake being palmed off as the real thing.

Here is an extract from the auctioneer's catalogue:

Pabst again was wheeling the Birdcage for the opening race of the 1962 World Sports Car Championship season at the three-hour Daytona Continental when he crashed during practice, doing severe injury to himself and even worse to the car. The remains were shipped back to Momo but the Cunningham team’s emphasis had shifted to its later Tipo 63 rear-mid-engined Birdcages. Eventually the surviving parts of 2459 were sold to England where they were used to maintain Birdcages in the twilight of their period racing and later during the cars’ ascendancy as avidly sought entries in historic racing.
Over the years several cars severely crashed in racing or damaged in non-racing incidents have been restored with new chassis, bodies, and engines. Chassis worn out beyond reasonable economic repair have been replaced, as have alloy bodies work-hardened after years of crash repairs. Engines have been swapped among chassis and others have been built in their entirety. The Birdcages’ value, history, and deserved reputation for benign handling and speed has made then avidly sought by collectors and by historic race organizers.
In the ‘90s an Italian collector began to assemble Birdcage parts with the object of accurately reconstructing a Birdcage. A 2 litre engine was built from many period-sourced parts including the cylinder head, crankcase, sump, cam covers, and 45DCO3 Weber carburetors. One of the intricate integrated gearbox/differentials was found. A Birdcage frame was constructed by one of the original factory fabricators from memory and some old drawings and was so accurate that it required only minimal modification. In 2008, the incomplete project was handed over to Steve Hart Racing in the U.K., one of the most knowledgeable and respected Birdcage mechanics/restorers in the world, for completion.
There it was united with what are believed to be the surviving parts from 2459 and other Tipo 61/60 parts including the tail and signal lights, tachometer, front wheel hubs and ignition, light, indicator, and starter switches. During completion of the project several updates developed by Maserati in the Sixties were incorporated, particularly to the steering and the suspension mountings. Other parts were fabricated from factory drawings or by duplicating existing original parts on other Birdcages.

No mention of the gearshift knob

[RA Historian]

No mention of the gearshift knob

But you know what I meant.

So it has tail lights, a couple switches, and the tach from the original. That does not a whole car make. The fact of the matter is that it is a fake.
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 15 April 2010 - 23:00.

[David McKinney]

So it has tail lights, a couple switches, and the tach from the original.

It doesn't even say that

[Giraffe]

I see where chassis Number 2459 is up for auction.
If this "replica" has anything more than the original gearshift knob in it I would be surprised. Yet another fake being palmed off as the real thing.

Tom

Precisely Tom. It's not 2459, end of story.
If ever I am in doubt in moments such as this, I refer back to DCN's mantra on Heritage that I cut and pasted for safe-keeping.......(& seem to have to read with increasing frequency)..........

"The classic and historic car world is riven with self-serving deception - and also self-serving self-deception. In truth the actual history of any artefact is never within the gift of any, inevitably temporary, owner. There was an early Lotus sports-racing car, sold to the US, returned years later as a bent and battered relic, and then 'restored' basically by having its chassis frame replaced by new. The owner of the time later sold the discarded original frame into other hands, while specifying that "the history does not go with this frame". In other words he attempted to specify that "the history" of the car and its American ownership would only "go" with the recreated car, assembled around the replacement, approximately one year-old, chassis frame.

This is fundamentally indefensible nonsense. The history of the original, discarded, now-sold chassis frame is utterly indelible, and plainly remains so until the day that the last vestige of that structure is finally melted down or corrodes away. Some things are not within the gift of mere man, and this is one of them. As for chassis plates - schmassis plates - a minor consideration in the factual scheme of things."

Amen (& thankyou Doug).

[D-Type]

People set so much store by chassis plates. Surely these are the easiest of elements to replicate?

[Peter Morley]

People set so much store by chassis plates. Surely these are the easiest of elements to replicate?

And the first item that was changed in the days of customs carnets and their corresponding cash guarantees.

[RA Historian]

It doesn't even say that

In which case absolutely nothing in this fake is from the original, yet it calls itself the original. It is beyond fake; it is a counterfeit, which they are unscrupulously passing off as real. Shame on them and shame on anybody foolish enough to buy this thinking it is real.

Precisely Tom. It's not 2459, end of story.
If ever I am in doubt in moments such as this, I refer back to DCN's mantra on Heritage that I cut and pasted for safe-keeping.......(& seem to have to read with increasing frequency)..........

"The classic and historic car world is riven with self-serving deception - and also self-serving self-deception. In truth the actual history of any artefact is never within the gift of any, inevitably temporary, owner. There was an early Lotus sports-racing car, sold to the US, returned years later as a bent and battered relic, and then 'restored' basically by having its chassis frame replaced by new. The owner of the time later sold the discarded original frame into other hands, while specifying that "the history does not go with this frame". In other words he attempted to specify that "the history" of the car and its American ownership would only "go" with the recreated car, assembled around the replacement, approximately one year-old, chassis frame.

This is fundamentally indefensible nonsense. The history of the original, discarded, now-sold chassis frame is utterly indelible, and plainly remains so until the day that the last vestige of that structure is finally melted down or corrodes away. Some things are not within the gift of mere man, and this is one of them. As for chassis plates - schmassis plates - a minor consideration in the factual scheme of things."

Amen (& thankyou Doug).

Well said, Tony, and absolutely right.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 16 April 2010 - 17:03.

[Michael_Delaney]

In which case absolutely nothing in this fake is from the original, yet it calls itself the original. It is beyond fake; it is a counterfeit, which they are unscrupulously passing off as real. Shame on them and shame on anybody foolish enough to buy this thinking it is real.


Well said, Tony, and absolutely right.

Tom

I have nothing agains replicas (with technical 100%-correct specs!) - as long as they are not sold or described as the real thing!

MD

Edited by Michael_Delaney, 16 April 2010 - 20:24.

[RA Historian]

I have nothing agains replicas (with technical 100%-correct specs!) - as long as they are not sold or described as the real thing!

MD

I think that a lot of us think the same. But unfortunately, those who are honest about their replicas and present and sell them as such, well, I am afraid that they are in the minority.
Tom

[David McKinney]

I have nothing agains replicas (with technical 100%-correct specs!) - as long as they are not sold or described as the real thing!

... or allowed to compete in the same race as the genuine articles

[Bjorn Kjer]

.....and therefore it ought to be Historical racing and/or Replica racing ?

Edited by Bjørn Kjer, 17 April 2010 - 05:42.

[Giraffe]

.....and therefore it ought to be Historical racing and/or Replica racing ?

In the World Sportscar Masters Series at least the continuation cars are identified in the programme as such, and the Lolas, Chevrons and at the last Silverstone event a GT40 help to bulk out the field and enhance the spectacle. Invariably they are beaten by the original cars that tend to be driven by the more experienced drivers as opposed to the 'c' cars that more often than not are driven by 'gentlemen racers' (with the exception of Bobby Rahal on occasion!).
When I watch the racing, I like to see how the two 'classes' fare against each other.

[David McKinney]

I just don't like the idea of a bloke in a £100,000 replica or continuation car racing against my £3m original

[Giraffe]

I just don't like the idea of a bloke in a £100,000 replica or continuation car racing against my £3m original

And those that agree with you David, don't.

[David McKinney]

Exactly

[Giraffe]

I just don't like the idea of a bloke in a £100,000 replica or continuation car racing against my £3m original

Anyway, if you've got £3m to spend on a racecar, the last thing on your mind would be the t---ers with replicas & continuation cars..............

[David M. Kane]

:rotf l:

Well said!

[David McKinney]

Anyway, if you've got £3m to spend on a racecar, the last thing on your mind would be the t---ers with replicas & continuation cars..............

You're missing the point. They'd be the uppermost thing on my mind as we race side by side into a corner. He doesn't care if we touch and go off - at worst it'll cost him £100,000. I'm not going to take the same chance with a £3m car

[Giraffe]

You're missing the point. They'd be the uppermost thing on my mind as we race side by side into a corner. He doesn't care if we touch and go off - at worst it'll cost him £100,000. I'm not going to take the same chance with a £3m car

......I think I understood you in the first place David, but thanks for the belt & braces on that one................

[Jerry Entin]

Here is a photo of the real thing. Dick Hall's chassis 2458 as raced by Bob Schroeder.

Car is currently owned by Jonathan Feiber who displayed it at Amelia Island recently.
Model makers take note: It's chassis was painted yellow when owned by Dick Hall..

Photo: Bob Jackson Willem Oosthoek Collection.

[bradbury west]

Crikey, Jerry, are they the original Blue Streak Goodyears?
Roger Lund

[Jerry Entin]

They sure look like Blue Streak Goodyears to us. The photo was taken in the rain at Hondo, Texas, in 1961.

A year later Bob Schroeder became a Goodyear dealer in Dallas.

all research Willem Oosthoek

[bradbury west]

ISTR they had a reputation as very hard rubber, and perhaps being a bit tricky in the wet compared to the Dunlops. IIRC the Willment team ran them over here around '64 on the big cars.
RL

[Giraffe]

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-24

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-24
Nick Mason at the VSCC Silverstone today with his T61 (2457/61).

[RA Historian]

As I understand it, this car is 2457, originally the Dave Causey car. It is owned by Nick Mason and is in about as original condition as such a car could be. Whereas 2461 is owned by Carl Moore, originally was a Camoradi car, and at present is very much a "Grandpa's Hammer" car with very little, if any, original parts in it.
Tom

[Giraffe]

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-24

By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-24