239 replies to this topic

[RA Historian]

Has to be a fake sale. There is no way this replica would get more than a couple hundred Euros at the very best.

[Joe Bosworth]

It seems likely that in about a year's time that the a chandelier bidder will put the replica 2459 up for sale with the hopes of attracting plus $1 million based on the weight of this supposed result.

 

In my opinion it is rather a shame that the its past history is being replicated yet again, (pun intended).

 

Based on recent years sales of replica and continuation cars that an absolute top price of circa $600,000 to $800,000 might eventuate if it were marketed properly.  I would stop short of $350,000 if I were bidding knowing of its history.  That price probably is close to what it would cost to replicate it if starting today.

 

My thoughts of proper marketing would be in providing a competitive historic racing record at some of the better races that would allow it. 

 

Any other thoughts from others?

 

Regards

[D-Type]

~

 

My thoughts of proper marketing would be in providing a competitive historic racing record at some of the better races that would allow it. 

 

~

That would be a good ploy, particularly if you remember that the FIA certification is not that a car has a genuine history, just that it is technically the same as back in the day - and the potential buyer doesn't know that.

[JoBo]

Has to be a fake sale. There is no way this replica would get more than a couple hundred Euros at the very best.

 

 

The car is still not listed in the COYS results. Rather mysterious...

Another reason to pass any sale of this auction company...

 

JoBo

[Cavalier53]

I saw the car in the Coys tent at Schloss Dyck.

 

Phantastic, to study the intricate frame. Curiously enough, it seemed to be the only car without any description (let alone an expected bid price) available. Amongst a rather mediocre mish-mash of vehicles on offer. I did not hang on to attend the bidding.

 

Coys must be reading TNF .

[Loren Lundberg]

This would be a great topic if only the bottom of each page was not overprinted with the "We value your privacy" BS.

[hamsterace]

It's back....

 

 

One certainly has to give the owners full marks for persistence in trying to sell it....

Edited by hamsterace, 29 January 2019 - 08:30.

[RA Historian]

No matter how much they try to gild the lily, it is still a fake, through and through.

[Jagjon]

It's back....

 

 

One certainly has to give the owners full marks for persistence in trying to sell it....

Premium  Classic  Cars was liquidated a year ago. Feb. 2018.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Coys of London have it, http://www.coys.co.u...o-6160-birdcage

Edited by Andrew Fellowes, 29 January 2019 - 23:16.

[JoBo]

Coys of London have it, http://www.coys.co.u...o-6160-birdcage

 

They also had it in August 2018 for sale in Germany - and they claimed that the car has been sold then.

Sorry to say but COYS clearly lost the rest of their already poor reputation...

 

JoBo

[AJB]

If I were in the market for such a car**, I'd pay £300,000 for it.

 

**For Sale:- 1960 Maserati Tipo 61 (or 60)

One careful owner. Always garaged. Never raced or rallied. Condition as new.

[JoBo]

If I were in the market for such a car**, I'd pay £300,000 for it.

 

**For Sale:- 1960 Maserati Tipo 61 (or 60)

One careful owner. Always garaged. Never raced or rallied. Condition as new.

 

...then: Go for it!

 

JoBo

[D-Type]

Coys of London have it, http://www.coys.co.u...o-6160-birdcage

That description needs to be read carefully for what it does not say.

 

And the grammar of Coys description writers has deteriorated significantly - perhaps that's deliberate obfuscation.

[Peter Morley]

That description needs to be read carefully for what it does not say.

 

And the grammar of Coys description writers has deteriorated significantly - perhaps that's deliberate obfuscation.

 

Richard Crump's letter quoted in the description starts ‘If you were a buyer of a Birdcage in the 1960’s, then this car, 2459, finished by Steve Hart Racing in the UK is what it would be like'

Does that not appear to say this is a brand new car! 

[JoBo]

Richard Crump's letter quoted in the description starts ‘If you were a buyer of a Birdcage in the 1960’s, then this car, 2459, finished by Steve Hart Racing in the UK is what it would be like'

Does that not appear to say this is a brand new car! 

 

Absolutely!

 

JoBo

[raceannouncer2003]

How about this one ?  Chassis 2457, the Dave Causey car, right ?

 

 

Vince H.

[RA Historian]

Yes. Causey had a different rear deck fashioned for his car because he did not like the look of the original. This is now NIck Mason's car, right?

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 06 February 2019 - 15:34.

[raceannouncer2003]

Yes, indeed...

 

https://www.ultimate...dcage-2457.html

 

Vince H.

[Ralf Pickel]

According to Coys´ email I just got, 2459 has been sold again, this time for a bit over 1 Mill. 

Oh well, guess it will be around again soon, somewhere...

Edited by Ralf Pickel, 21 February 2019 - 16:22.

[RA Historian]

According to Coys´ email I just got, 2459 has been sold again, this time for a bit over 1 Mill. 

Oh well, guess it will be around again soon, somewhere...

Except that we all know that it really is not 2459, which no longer exists. Back when I was in business, we would refer to something such as this as the "greater fool" theory.

 

Tom

[Joe Bosworth]

Just checked Coys' web page 2459 is going up for sale again on 2 April in London.

 

http://www.coys.co.u...o-6160-birdcage

 

Is that a :-( or a ;-) ?  Oh well !!!!

 

Regards

[Ralf Pickel]

I knew it would be around for a bit longer....  

[Charlieman]

Just checked Coys' web page 2459 is going up for sale again on 2 April in London.

 

http://www.coys.co.u...o-6160-birdcage

 

According to Coys: "A team of professional welders built a chassis using the same secret welding process and small diameter chrome-molybdenum steel tubes that were unique to the production of the Birdcages in the 1960’s."

 

It might have been an expensive process at the time but it was not unique. Maserati were not the first to discover small diameter steel but they were the first to discover why others hadn't built cars that way. Even Colin Chapman learned that you have to build cars which can be maintained.

[JoBo]

Even Colin Chapman learned that you have to build cars which can be maintained.

 

..eh, what? Maybe the language barrier...but what do you mean?

 

JoBo
 

Edited by JoBo, 23 February 2019 - 00:13.

[StanBarrett2]

..eh, what? Maybe the language barrier...but what do you mean?

 

JoBo
 

ATS ??

[Charlieman]

..eh, what? Maybe the language barrier...but what do you mean?

Some of the Lotus space frames placed diagonal and Y-shaped braces over the engine bay which made basic maintenance tricky. Have a look for James A Allington's cutaway of the Lotus 19.

[Peter Morley]

Some of the Lotus space frames placed diagonal and Y-shaped braces over the engine bay which made basic maintenance tricky. Have a look for James A Allington's cutaway of the Lotus 19.

 

The obvious contender is the prototype Lotus 8 that had a pure spaceframe chassis, which meant they had to assemble the engine in the car, it wasn't possible to take the engine out without dismantling it!

By the 60s they were using removable Y braces in the engine bay, which had of course moved to the back of the car.

[Pat Clarke]

Some of the Lotus space frames placed diagonal and Y-shaped braces over the engine bay which made basic maintenance tricky. Have a look for James A Allington's cutaway of the Lotus 19.

 

I am sure the 'Y' shaped braces in the engine bay of the Lotus 18 (and all its descendants up to the type 61 and including the type 19) was bolted in and could be removed for engine changes or maintenance. This may not be easily visible in cutaway drawings.

 

Pat

 

PS, I know they hadd to cut the chassis to remove the engine from the ATS F1 cars in 1961.

Edited by Pat Clarke, 25 February 2019 - 10:00.

[Charlieman]

I am sure the 'Y' shaped braces in the engine bay of the Lotus 18 (and all its descendants up to the type 61 and including the type 19) was bolted in and could be removed for engine changes or maintenance. This may not be easily visible in cutaway drawings.

My recollection is that the carburettors and Y brace occupy more or less the same physical space. The book Racing and Sports Car Chassis Design by Costin and Phipps has an explanation.

 

Thanks for the note about the ATS, Pat.

 

Regarding the Maserati T60/T61, I suspect that the chassis work was too complex for a local welding shop to perform repairs away from base, but it looks like bread and butter work for somebody working in aerospace or a chemical engineering plant.

[Joe Bosworth]

I will throw a few observations out there on the issue of Birdcage frame building.

 

1.  It is almost certain that original Birdcages did not use Chromoly steel in their frames.  Back in the 1960s no one used such unless, as with Indy car rules they were mandated to the material.  The primary problem was that the exotic filler materials of today were not invented yet and use of SAE 4130 welding rods on 4130 frame materials resulted in localised embrittlement w2hich actually made the frame weaker than using normally used mild steel tubing.  To get the embrittlement out, the complete frame would need to be heat treated, a process that was possible but difficult and still left repairs even more difficult. 

 

2.  It is well documented that race Masers of that time used Italian produced Columbus tubing and most likely Columbus SL. Columbus did not then produuce tubing known as chromoly. 

     The worldwide standards then as now were dictated by SAE and chrome moly is/was all in the 41xx spec series.  The most commonly used was SAE 4130 when required by rules  such as for Indy cars.

 

3.   Day to day weld shops then as now don't have the experience or patience to build strong and straight steel frames of any material.  It takes patience to never heat two joints to cool at the same time.  No real secrets to the process.  Just in Australia and NZ there were in that period probably 20 or 30 people in each country with the skills.  Maybe half that now.  In period I would guess that the skilled in England probably numbered as many as 100+.

 

4.  Coys' present day comments on frame building go back  to using the exact words from the first ersatz 2459 auction descriptions.  One has to believe that the same person/body is still behind the present auction efforts. 

 

5.  More on Coys, Reading ahead on their auction lists they are not only listing the ersatz vehicle for London but also listing for a German auction thereafter.  How is that for confidence??

 

Regards

[Allan Lupton]

Reviving this thread to link yet another attempt by Coys to pull the wool over the eyes of the rich car collector.

https://www.coys.co....dcage-copy-copy

[Alan Cox]

Reviving this thread to link yet another attempt by Coys to pull the wool over the eyes of the rich car collector.

https://www.coys.co....dcage-copy-copy

I'm amazed to see that "Coys" are still trading. I thought they had ceased to exist a while ago. Why would any client think of using a name which has gone to the wall so frequently to sell their pride and joy? I see they now trade from Richmond-upon-Thames

[10kDA]

I'm amazed to see that "Coys" are still trading. I thought they had ceased to exist a while ago. Why would any client think of using a name which has gone to the wall so frequently to sell their pride and joy? I see they now trade from Richmond-upon-Thames

Alan - read the "Coys of Kensington under new ownership " thread and the link to the article at prewarcar.com for an attempt to unravel how Coys has been able to ... continue? Reboot? Not sure what to call their chicanery. The writers at PreWarCar seem to give Coys the benefit of the doubt, for now, but their article and especially the following comments reeked of slime.

[rl1856]

It is all semantics.  Issues concerning originality can be discarded the moment the owner/seller begins to choose words very carefully when answering direct questions regarding the history of the car.

Edited by rl1856, 26 January 2021 - 14:37.

[Catalina Park]

I see the Wikipedia page for the car is gone.

[VWV]

An update on 2459. Sold for $220,000 by Barrett Jackson.  https://www.barrett-...CREATION-249541

 

Lot #740 - Named after its intricate and super-light spaceframe, Maserati's Tipo 60 and Tipo 61 "Birdcage" remain the masterpieces of Italian engineer Giulio Alfieri. Stirling Moss took the car's first win at Rouen in 1959 it went on to nearly 170 victories from 1959-67. One of as few as 22 built, this Maserati Tipo 61 "Birdcage" is chassis #2459, built for Briggs Cunningham, prepared by Alfred Momo, and primarily driven by two-time SCCA Driver of the Year Walt Hansgen to three wins in 1960. Drivers for 1961 included Hansgen, Dick Thompson and Augie Pabst, with one win plus third- and fourth-place finishes. Following a high-speed crash with Pabst during practice at Daytona, 2459 returned to Momo and was later shipped to England. The restoration commenced under an Italian collector, who accumulated verified original parts and components over 15 years, including the cylinder head, lower crankcase and sump, cam covers and transaxle tower. He also had a correct 2.0-liter engine rebuilt by Frank Tralli of Modena, Italy, and dyno-tested, with the test sheet on file. The frame was constructed in Modena using original techniques, materials and factory drawings. The completed chassis and engine were shipped to Maserati experts in the U.K., where the rebuild was supervised by Richard Crump and finished in 2010, including a new body and fitting of additional original Birdcage parts, including the rear lights, repeater lights, rev counter, ignition switch, starter button, turn signals, and front hubs. Following completion, 2459 was displayed at the 2012 Kuwait Concours d'Elegance and it won Best of Show at the 2013 edition of Keels & Wheels in Houston, where Bill Warner of Amelia Island renown was Head Judge. In 2019, it was exhibited in the U.K. at Salon Prive and the Goodwood Festival of Speed. Beautiful, expertly rebuilt and steeped in racing history with some of the greatest names, 2459 includes an official FIA HTP (Historical Technical Passport - Class TSRC4) issued August 27, 2010. Richard Crump personally inspected the finished car and wrote, "If you were a Birdcage customer at the Modena factory in 1959 or 1960, what you see here is what you would have been delivered." **SOLD ON BILL OF SALE**

[opplock]

I suspect I'm not the only one sniggering about this recreation having being sold for a fraction of what they were offered for it 10 years ago. 

[JoBo]

An update on 2459. Sold for $220,000 by Barrett Jackson.  https://www.barrett-...CREATION-249541

 

Lot #740 - Named after its intricate and super-light spaceframe, Maserati's Tipo 60 and Tipo 61 "Birdcage" remain the masterpieces of Italian engineer Giulio Alfieri. Stirling Moss took the car's first win at Rouen in 1959 it went on to nearly 170 victories from 1959-67. One of as few as 22 built, this Maserati Tipo 61 "Birdcage" is chassis #2459, built for Briggs Cunningham, prepared by Alfred Momo, and primarily driven by two-time SCCA Driver of the Year Walt Hansgen to three wins in 1960. Drivers for 1961 included Hansgen, Dick Thompson and Augie Pabst, with one win plus third- and fourth-place finishes. Following a high-speed crash with Pabst during practice at Daytona, 2459 returned to Momo and was later shipped to England. The restoration commenced under an Italian collector, who accumulated verified original parts and components over 15 years, including the cylinder head, lower crankcase and sump, cam covers and transaxle tower. He also had a correct 2.0-liter engine rebuilt by Frank Tralli of Modena, Italy, and dyno-tested, with the test sheet on file. The frame was constructed in Modena using original techniques, materials and factory drawings. The completed chassis and engine were shipped to Maserati experts in the U.K., where the rebuild was supervised by Richard Crump and finished in 2010, including a new body and fitting of additional original Birdcage parts, including the rear lights, repeater lights, rev counter, ignition switch, starter button, turn signals, and front hubs. Following completion, 2459 was displayed at the 2012 Kuwait Concours d'Elegance and it won Best of Show at the 2013 edition of Keels & Wheels in Houston, where Bill Warner of Amelia Island renown was Head Judge. In 2019, it was exhibited in the U.K. at Salon Prive and the Goodwood Festival of Speed. Beautiful, expertly rebuilt and steeped in racing history with some of the greatest names, 2459 includes an official FIA HTP (Historical Technical Passport - Class TSRC4) issued August 27, 2010. Richard Crump personally inspected the finished car and wrote, "If you were a Birdcage customer at the Modena factory in 1959 or 1960, what you see here is what you would have been delivered." **SOLD ON BILL OF SALE**

"...steeped in racing history..." I can`t stop laughing.........  

[Rob Miller]

Let's hope the new owner calls it a T60 recreation.