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Classic sidecar racing


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#101 Geoff E

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 15:10

I wondered at the time how they got away with this concept.


My dad told me that Morgan 3-wheelers used to race against sidecars at Cadwell. Obviously for the Greenwood machine to be legal, there must have been some part of a rule that related to wheel spacing. There seems to be nothing to that effect in the modern rules http://www.britishhi...ration-Form.pdf

I saw such a race last year - in wet conditions it was won by a "Morgan". It seems the "3-wheelers" won every race last year http://www.britishhi...10-tables/20-2/


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#102 dommieracer

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 20:45

Owen Greenwoods mini special had 4 wheels, two outer front and two inner rear. Owen found a loophole in the regs to do with the spacing of the two rear wheels. Although Owen built a damned good machine it was hated by many of the sidecar racers and for good reason. Having been to a few British Historic Racing meetings i have seen Morgans/Morvins/Morjaps with Berlkeys and sidecars all out at the same time. I must admit i feel that true motorcycles with sidecars should be seperate but do understand that due the shortage of both types that today they are in the same race. In the 60's Colin Chapman was not happy at Brands Hatch when his Lotus Cortinas could catch this one sidecar round the corners but would be left behind on the straights. At the end of the day Colin went to see the sidecar rider about the outfit. He asked what engine was in it? The rider replied a 500 Manx Norton. Colin was lost for words.

Kevin

#103 Geoff E

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 21:42

Having been to a few British Historic Racing meetings i have seen Morgans/Morvins/Morjaps with Berlkeys and sidecars all out at the same time. I must admit i feel that true motorcycles with sidecars should be seperate but do understand that due the shortage of both types that today they are in the same race.


I didn't make it clear earlier, these mixed races used to happen at Cadwell in the 1950s, long before Greenwood came along with his mini. They were certainly "in the past" by the time I first went there c1957.

As Wiki says of Morgans, "The early cars were two-seat or four-seat three-wheelers, and are therefore considered to be cyclecars. Three-wheeled vehicles avoided the British tax on cars by being classified as motorcycles."


#104 fil2.8

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 22:28

Was the Hillman Imp engine used in sidecar racing, a good prosect as it was light in construction ?



It sure was , by quite a few , prone to head gasket failure , but pretty successful , i'll check ' names ' tomorrow :wave:

#105 Rennmax

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 22:46

It sure was , by quite a few , prone to head gasket failure , but pretty successful , i'll check ' names ' tomorrow :wave:


Peter Hardy had an Imp engined outfit

#106 Rennmax

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 12:08

Slightly OT, but has anyone of you ever driven a Reliant, the one with 1 wheel at the front and 2 at the rear ? Looks a bit wobbly, doesn't it ?

#107 exclubracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 12:20

Slightly OT, but has anyone of you ever driven a Reliant, the one with 1 wheel at the front and 2 at the rear ? Looks a bit wobbly, doesn't it ?

Yes, could also be driven with a motorcycle licence. Handling was 'interesting' especially in anything more than a light breeze.

Known to all as 'The Plastic Rocket' there were other variants, a small van was one, the Bond Bug was a little more 'up-market' having wind-up windows that didn't leak as much as the Reliant Robin.




#108 GD66

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 12:28

Peter Hardy had an Imp engined outfit


And Vic Phillips' "Nerus Impetus"... :cool:


#109 Herr Wankel

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 12:48

Yes, could also be driven with a motorcycle licence. Handling was 'interesting' especially in anything more than a light breeze.

Known to all as 'The Plastic Rocket' there were other variants, a small van was one, the Bond Bug was a little more 'up-market' having wind-up windows that didn't leak as much as the Reliant Robin.

I had a Bond 875.Bit like a Reliant in wheel configuration,but with an Imp motor and transmission at the back.It had what looked like a giant single sided Lambretta fork for steering.No chassis just just a huge fibre glass moulding with steel plates bonded in to take the sub assemblies.Frightening is not a strong enough word to describe the performance.Lift of the throttle gently above 85mph as the air would get under the front and the front wheel would start to hover.Leaked like a sieve.Never did cure it so drilled holes in the floor to let the water out!!Used to tow a little trailer with the CR110 on it.Fun in a bizarre kind of way.Got it literally on the door handles a couple of times.You never felt 100% in control at any time.It was finished in (appropriately) invalid carriage blue!

HW

#110 Rennmax

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 12:53

Thanks for sharing your experiences gents :up:

#111 Geoff E

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 13:02

Slightly OT, but has anyone of you ever driven a Reliant, the one with 1 wheel at the front and 2 at the rear ? Looks a bit wobbly, doesn't it ?


They rarely wobble, they just capsize


#112 Geoff E

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 13:06

I had a go in a car with a Villiers motorcycle engine, a Bond minicar I think It was ... .


I seem to recall that the engine was mounted on the front wheel assembly and turned when the steering was operated.

EDIT: yes it was, see here http://en.wikipedia....ki/Bond_Minicar

Edited by Geoff E, 20 March 2011 - 13:08.


#113 Rennmax

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 13:19

They rarely wobble, they just capsize


Thanks Geoff, certainly a vehicle for the stout-hearted...

#114 fil2.8

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 16:33

Slightly OT, but has anyone of you ever driven a Reliant, the one with 1 wheel at the front and 2 at the rear ? Looks a bit wobbly, doesn't it ?


Yes , I have , Renn , unfortunately :blush: .................( wasn't mine I hasten to add :eek: )


#115 dommieracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 17:19

Imp engines are still used alot today in the classics, still prone to belts going and water pump problems. I have never been a fan of car engines in a motorcycle sport.

#116 fil2.8

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 17:48

Imp engines are still used alot today in the classics, still prone to belts going and water pump problems. I have never been a fan of car engines in a motorcycle sport.



Works both ways though , there are / were quite a few production / race cars using bike engines ...................... :up:


#117 exclubracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 18:21

PaulMB builds 'em with modern bike engines, I believe.

#118 Paul Collins

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 19:40

Slightly OT, but has anyone of you ever driven a Reliant, the one with 1 wheel at the front and 2 at the rear ? Looks a bit wobbly, doesn't it ?


Renn, when I was a teenager one of the lads in my village had a 'Del Boy' style Reliant van, our party trick was to open the back door then three of us would stand on the back end and lean back, he would rev it hard, drop the clutch and could wheelie it all the way across the chip shop car park :)

Edited by Paul Collins, 20 March 2011 - 19:42.


#119 dommieracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 19:55

Works both ways though , there are / were quite a few production / race cars using bike engines ...................... :up:

True, the cooper with a Manx engine was and still is a good racer/ hill climber. Not sure of Steve Lancefields special magaphone tho. :rotfl:

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#120 Rennmax

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 20:26

Renn, when I was a teenager one of the lads in my village had a 'Del Boy' style Reliant van, our party trick was to open the back door then three of us would stand on the back end and lean back, he would rev it hard, drop the clutch and could wheelie it all the way across the chip shop car park :)


:clap: :clap: :drunk:



#121 dommieracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 20:31

Posted Image
By joeninety at 2011-03-20
My dad's mate had one of these in British racing green, he also had a Manx, he was a character, he and his mate "Pin Head" were going to build a plane with a VW engine and fly to the IOM, get to Blackpool tower and turn left. Needless to say he was known as "Harry Pie"
Bloody good fun though, I marveled at his outlook on life he would turn up in anything from an Armstrong Siddeley to a Triumph Mayflower. He had a big brass thingy for engine timing purposes and a home made Crossbow that when let loose would shake the wooden garage doors almost off their hinges.
I have to thank Dad for exposing me to real life characters at such an early age.

Would that happen to be your racing suit in this pic? Also are you about to abandond ship? :rotfl:

#122 dommieracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 20:32

Would that happen to be your racing suit in this pic? Also are you about to abandond ship? :rotfl:

Having said that tho, i do have a fellow cider/perry maker that has 2 Morgans with JAP engines in. As if one is not enough!


#123 dommieracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 20:47

Yes it is my racing suit and no I wouldn't dare jump ship at this speed. Now does anyone remember Les and Stella Clarke ?

Knowing me i have got this wrong but would this be the Les Clarke? http://www.google.co...ENpOLhQeYp-2wBA


#124 dommieracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 21:06

Thats a good age, Sounds a bit like Robin and Annette Daykin, aka Team Past It. Robin is what 75 now and still fast on his f2 outfit. See them at Tonfanau race track from time to time. I used to sponsor the sidecar races and bought a new best new commer trophey there.

#125 exclubracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 21:32

Thats a good age, Sounds a bit like Robin and Annette Daykin, aka Team Past It. Robin is what 75 now and still fast on his f2 outfit. See them at Tonfanau race track from time to time. I used to sponsor the sidecar races and bought a new best new commer trophey there.

Ah, Tonfanau, the mini Darley Moor :up:


#126 dommieracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 21:48

Ah, Tonfanau, the mini Darley Moor :up:

Yep, uneven tarmac, raised cerbs, manhole covers, drains oh and sheep s**t and Doctor Who is made in Wales. What does that tell you.... :rotfl:

#127 exclubracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 22:26

Yep, uneven tarmac, raised cerbs, manhole covers, drains oh and sheep s**t and Doctor Who is made in Wales. What does that tell you.... :rotfl:


But it has a nice big paddock... :D


#128 dommieracer

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 22:39

But it has a nice big paddock... :D

True, no closed tents/motorhomes. Cant say that about the top flight stuff today.

#129 PaulMB

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 07:29

PaulMB builds 'em with modern bike engines, I believe.


I have built a car with a bike engine but it doesn't really qualify for this forum, had four wheels, can provide piccies and stuff if you are really interested.

#130 Herr Wankel

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 12:34

Lets 'ave a butchers then Paul

HW

#131 dommieracer

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 20:14

me thinks number 20 is a tad hot going into the bottom of Graham Hill bend.
http://www.flickr.co...N06/5596245138/

kevin.

photo from damiens folio


#132 PaulMB

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 20:15

Posted Image

Looking rough here I'm afraid but you get the idea, mid season and looking tired. Guess where, not difficult. We were lucky to get number 34, suited me as it was Kev's race number.

In this guise it won 7 of its 12 races and finished second twice. Fisher Fury, lightweight race chassis and bodywork, fully independent rose jointed suspension with my own roll bar design, 2004 1000cc Honda Fireblade injected engine, std engine but exhaust open to your design so long as you meet 105dB, intake open to your design so long as std injectors are used hence NACA duct and 100 mm intake tube ducting into our own airbox through radiator hot air outlet, Power Commander mapped to exhaust and intake design, control tyre, control fuel, no ABS, no full throttle engine kill shift, no electronic paddle shift but I built a mechanical rod paddle shift system, no donwshift blipper, min weight 530kgs our car weighed 565kg with driver and 3 litres of fuel, min ground clearance of 75mm, reverse gear required using Muffett diff in rear of car, engine sideways in front, big hump gets airbox and twin injectors under hood, just. Full data logging including 2 axis G sensors, (draws circuit, allows identification of over/understeer), 0-60mph at Snett race start 2.6 seconds, max speed 135ish depending on gearing, (inside Diff), 136bhp at rear wheels. I enjoyed this project. You can just see one of the bonnet catches has popped open and also the under floor scoop cooling the second oil heat exchanger, that was really effective. Primary cooler can be seen fitted sideways on to right of water radiator.

Edited by PaulMB, 06 April 2011 - 20:19.


#133 Herr Wankel

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 21:46

[quote name='PaulMB' date='Apr 6 2011, 21:15' post='4941510']
Posted Image

Looking rough here I'm afraid but you get the idea, mid season and looking tired. Guess where, not difficult. We were lucky to get number 34, suited me as it was Kev's race number.

Nice one Paul?.I like this kind of thing.My near neighbour built his own hillclimb car (to a terrapin design) and 2 years later won the British Leaders Hill-Climb champs with it
(GSX 1000 motor).Superb !!!!

#134 GD66

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 08:32

me thinks number 20 is a tad hot going into the bottom of Graham Hill bend.
kevin.



Must have been at a Hutchinson 100 then, Graham Hill (or Bottom) Bend is a left-hander. :)
Brian Rust on the outside sans fairing....ripper pic, all the same ! :clap:

Edited by GD66, 07 April 2011 - 08:33.


#135 dommieracer

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 19:23

GD66

spot on in both counts :up:

#136 exclubracer

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 22:39

Cheers Paul, nice motor! :up:

#137 RC162

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 07:21

Hi all
Just a quick line to say that if you love your classic sidecars then the Trophees Gerard Jumeaux held at Croix en Ternois on the 18th and 19th of June this year may be the place to go. An entire paddock, from the three available, is allocated to just sidecars and being only 50 miles south of Calais it's easy to get to.

Here's a few pics from last year.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#138 johnnyoza

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 11:38

This is my Dad..Somewhere in the late 50's early 60'sPosted Image

Edited by johnnyoza, 09 April 2011 - 11:38.


#139 roger382

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 13:59

Must have been at a Hutchinson 100 then, Graham Hill (or Bottom) Bend is a left-hander. :)
Brian Rust on the outside sans fairing....ripper pic, all the same ! :clap:


Looks more like the bottom of Padock to me, and think #22 on the inside is Vic Phillips and his "Impetus". Though maybe totally wrong. That bang on the bonce under the outfit at Cadwell back in `91 didn`t do much for prolonging the grey cells ): ta-ta 4 now :wave:

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#140 PhilG

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 11:59

My dad raced sidecars briely back in 1969/70 and had an NSU powered outfit, fitted with various Speiss bits , was ballistically fast, he worked in an NSU dealers , and his boss fancied a go, so they built the outfit, or at least modded it to take the unit with the help of Rob North who's workshop was round the corner.

I think it is still around , but havent seen pictures anywhere.

#141 dommieracer

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 17:48

WWW

http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream

Kevin

#142 Rennmax

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 18:02

WWW

http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream

Kevin


Monza '56

#2 Milani/Milani on Gilera
#4 Noll/Cron
#6 Harris/Campbell ?
#8 Hillebrand/Grunwald

There was also Schneider/Strauss in this race, the BMW works riders with their plain white helmets are hard to distinguish.

How do you get along with the restauration of your father's sidecar outfit Kevin ?

Edited by Rennmax, 26 August 2011 - 18:05.


#143 dixie

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 22:26

I seem to recall that the engine was mounted on the front wheel assembly and turned when the steering was operated.

EDIT: yes it was, see here http://en.wikipedia....ki/Bond_Minicar

My mate had a bond many years ago. Had to lift the bonnet to kick start it. I remember once, when he was learning and I was sat with him, that he changed down too rapidly coming down a hill and the magneto fly wheel parted company with the engine and promtply raced down the hill ahead of us.

#144 dommieracer

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 08:57

Monza '56

#2 Milani/Milani on Gilera
#4 Noll/Cron
#6 Harris/Campbell ?
#8 Hillebrand/Grunwald

There was also Schneider/Strauss in this race, the BMW works riders with their plain white helmets are hard to distinguish.

How do you get along with the restauration of your father's sidecar outfit Kevin ?


Hi Renn,

The Dommie is coming along nicely, i will upload more pics soon. As for the sidecar i will start on that after the Dommie is finished. Again i will put some pics up on the boxed items for that one.

Cheers

Kevin

#145 Rennmax

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 09:36

Hi Renn,

The Dommie is coming along nicely, i will upload more pics soon. As for the sidecar i will start on that after the Dommie is finished. Again i will put some pics up on the boxed items for that one.

Cheers

Kevin



Thanks for keeping us updated Kevin, I still marvel at the pics of your Dommie you loaded up some time ago.

Are my suggestions for your piccie ok so far ?

Cheers

Edited by Rennmax, 27 August 2011 - 09:36.


#146 dommieracer

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 20:44

Thanks for keeping us updated Kevin, I still marvel at the pics of your Dommie you loaded up some time ago.

Are my suggestions for your piccie ok so far ?

Cheers

Hi Renn,

Monza 56,

28- Camthias/Bula BMW
8- Hillbrand/Gruinwald BMW
6- Harris/Campbell Norton
4- Noll/Cron BMW
2- Milani/Milani Gilera

Fath/Ohr, Schneider/Strauss and Drion/Stoll ?

Kevin


#147 Dewie

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 10:27

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Barry Horner's Irving Vincent side car is always a pleasure to see and hear competeing.
Check out their web site, worth a look.

And check out their Utube video


Edited by Dewie, 14 November 2011 - 11:05.


#148 GD66

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 10:50

Without question, Dewie. But it wouldn't be worth their while turning up at the historic nats, or (in hindsight) Eastern Creek for the BSFOS, because it's a hotrod.
Doesn't alter the fact that, aurally and visually, it's one of the horniest race bikes you'll ever see on a track, and we're privileged to be able to see and hear it in action...phwoooaarr... :eek:

#149 picblanc

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 20:43

Keith & David Latheron (900 Weslake) @ Lydden Hill 2008.
Posted Image
Photo Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.

#150 picblanc

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 20:47

Not sure who, but Lydden Hill 2008, got a sticker on the back, of the Battleship Missouri Pearl Harbour, I wonder why?
Posted Image
Photo Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.