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F1 attempts to return to the USA


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#51 rmac923

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 18:53

Nice try...
It's over here
Jp


No ****? I did request to the mods to merge this topic into the Jersey GP thread. :rolleyes:

Seriously, go look at my first post in that thread.

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#52 loki

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 19:18

It's probably the Meadowlands. And it's a lot more than a "15 minute" trip from Manhattan. I doubt it will happen.

#53 MLC

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 19:37

Could you imagine the line of traffic on Hwy 68? Both ways too! :eek:

And the outrage from the residents :eek: :eek:

Clint wouldn't have it either. He doesn't need more traffic clogging up his private Idaho.

**Yes it is an awesome track to drive though.



And what would the F1 cars do to the sound meter between T5 and T6! :wave:

#54 Xpat

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 20:16

Bernie saw some episodes of Jersey Shore and wants to hook up with J-Woww.

#55 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 23:28

Those aren't bad, but the land there is sparse and almost swamp-like. I've had a quick scout around and made this, Albert Park style, in James L. Braddock North County Park, also in NJ:

I'll see your layout and raise you this one:

http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577507

But again with the NIMBYs.

#56 noikeee

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 23:37

I'll see your layout and raise you this one:

http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577507


I'd be quite happy with that.


#57 Lazarus II

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 23:52

I'll see your layout and raise you this one:

http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577507

But again with the NIMBYs.

I'll give it a go - not like any of these will happen :p
http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577553

It's like driving around a trash dump :lol:

Edited by Lazarus II, 25 March 2010 - 23:54.


#58 Madera

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 00:18

1) Three words, it's in Utah...
2) "Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may be in Utah". Who in the world wants to go to Utah that doesn't have to?
3) There are no major metropolii anywhere in Utah. It's Utah... The biggest attactions in Utah are a huge hole in the ground and a dead lake.


I really don't think the F1 crowd is going to flock to Utah. In general, people go to races to have fun and when most folks think of fun places to go, it's doubtful that Utah tops the list (heh, it's doubtful that Utah even makes the list). What do you do after the race? Go check out the Mormon Tabernacle Choir?

I've been there, and invariably the best part of visiting Utah is getting on the plane for the flight out...

Salt Lake city is not a major metropolis? Better do your homework son.

And, MMSP is a great race track. IMHO could work for F1.

#59 loki

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 01:43

Ever been to Miller? If the F1 crowd thought Indianapolis was boring Salt Lake makes it look like Vegas. Miller would need grandstands, pit and paddock area and a major parking and access road project to make it happen.

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#60 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 01:58

It's like driving around a trash dump :lol:

Better idea: driving around a prison!

http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577746

Or shutting down one of the world's busiest airports for a week!

http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577762

Edited by Captain Tightpants, 26 March 2010 - 02:04.


#61 Slyder

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 02:59

After what happened in 2005, I honestly am not sure if Indy will ever be brought back again, which it sucks because its the better venue. A bit of expansion of the track and it would work.

#62 Lazarus II

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 04:49

Better idea: driving around a prison!

http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577746

Don't stop for hitch hikers

#63 Lazarus II

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 05:01

Pissin' off the NIMBY's http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577927

Nimby's gone URL for this route is: http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577929

Easily the best one yet http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577939

Edited by Lazarus II, 26 March 2010 - 05:25.


#64 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 06:48

Easily the best one yet http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577939

A more practical version for you:

http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3577994

#65 One

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 08:56

Very exciting excersizes!

How do one solve the logistic issues, like huge m2 of truck park, paddock grandstand and so on? Especially given the context of urban park...

You know Central park on the North side of Metropolitan as tricky layout possibilities, only if these things can be solved... Perhaps impossible...?

#66 jaisli

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 09:26

I just don't know. After sleeping on this one, as much as I would love to see a race in NY (NJ) in 2 years, I just can't see it happening. Whether it's in the Meadowlands or Liberty State Park, even if we could get past all of the environmental issues, which I doubt (Liberty State Park even fought and turned down building a Sept 11 Memorial because it would have destroyed the park's beauty), did anybody wonder who's going to pay for pits, garages, a paddock, grandstands, a podium, and everything that goes along with it. Not to mention, uh, the track? Construction work has stalled on the ridiculous Meadowlands Xanadu complex. It was supposed to be completed already in 2007 and now it sits there, 90% completed, but an empty hulk because the economy is in shambles, the builder defaulted and nobody is willing to complete it and nobody is willing to rent retail space. The state spent millions on road and rail extensions to handle the additional traffic. There's no way anybody is going to agree to more construction in the area without a clear plan on earning it back. And we all know, hosting an F1 race doesn't earn the promoter a lot of cash.

I'm guessing after Vegas officials told Bernie to take a hike he's using the threat of a NY Grand Prix to convince the board at Indy that they're not the only game in town. A plan which I'm sure will back fire anyway.

#67 Flynnie

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 10:36

Salt Lake city is not a major metropolis? Better do your homework son.

And, MMSP is a great race track. IMHO could work for F1.

Salt Lake City is the 48th largest metro area in the United States, after such powerhouse metropolis as Hartford, Jacksonville, Providence and Orlando.

So no, it's not a major metropolis, even if you and the Karl Malone jersey you're obviously wearing think it is.

#68 One

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 11:17

I just don't know. After sleeping on this one, as much as I would love to see a race in NY (NJ) in 2 years, I just can't see it happening. Whether it's in the Meadowlands or Liberty State Park, even if we could get past all of the environmental issues, which I doubt (Liberty State Park even fought and turned down building a Sept 11 Memorial because it would have destroyed the park's beauty), did anybody wonder who's going to pay for pits, garages, a paddock, grandstands, a podium, and everything that goes along with it. Not to mention, uh, the track? Construction work has stalled on the ridiculous Meadowlands Xanadu complex. It was supposed to be completed already in 2007 and now it sits there, 90% completed, but an empty hulk because the economy is in shambles, the builder defaulted and nobody is willing to complete it and nobody is willing to rent retail space. The state spent millions on road and rail extensions to handle the additional traffic. There's no way anybody is going to agree to more construction in the area without a clear plan on earning it back. And we all know, hosting an F1 race doesn't earn the promoter a lot of cash.

I'm guessing after Vegas officials told Bernie to take a hike he's using the threat of a NY Grand Prix to convince the board at Indy that they're not the only game in town. A plan which I'm sure will back fire anyway.


Besides the permanent paddock area and the floor, Monaco does work with temporary grand stand and stands. It will most certainly not possible to build one like Abu Dhabi on the Liberty State Park I am assuming. NYC is great place for Formula One, VISUALLY, but but,.. every traffic disruption costs huge $$$ perhaps with 9 to 10 figures, and if in case accidents happens, this will cost the promotor and the insurer huge costs and litigation risks.

Liberty park looks like nice and empty, but even if it is empty the potential value is huge naturally in NYC...

I could imagine at Brooklyn, across the two bridges, but that straights will be over 2 km...

#69 jaisli

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 12:00

Besides the permanent paddock area and the floor, Monaco does work with temporary grand stand and stands. It will most certainly not possible to build one like Abu Dhabi on the Liberty State Park I am assuming. NYC is great place for Formula One, VISUALLY, but but,.. every traffic disruption costs huge $$$ perhaps with 9 to 10 figures, and if in case accidents happens, this will cost the promotor and the insurer huge costs and litigation risks.


Well, let's keep in mind that Monaco has been the crown jewel in F1's crown for half a century and has existed as a 'Grand Prix' venue for much longer than that. When you think of Grand Prix racing, you tend to think of Monaco. There's a history there. Had there never been an F1 race in Monaco and Bernie proposed to have one today, everybody would think him mad. And as such, the organizers get away with much, MUCH lower sanctioning fees, the cost of erecting stands and the semi-permanent garages are partially off set by the exorbitant ticket prices, and the general populous indulges in the inconvenience of the race because it's a part of Monaco's history and tradition. Not to mention the fact that it's possible to see the race without actually buying a ticket. The City of New York and the surrounding area have NO history of racing. (And yes, I'm aware of the lackluster CART races in the 80s and the races at Bridgehampton out on Long Island. For the benefit of people outside of the area, Watkins Glen is about as close to New York City as Monza is to Hockenheim. It's a world away.)

Your assumption of additional costs and risks to the promoter are probably dead on. New York and Las Vegas are not begging Bernie to bring the F1 circus to town. The planning boards of both cities would probably consider it nothing but a big nuisance and the more likely scenario is, Bernie is desperately trying to figure out a way to entice them and to find a promoter willing to cover the cost. He wants places like New York or Las Vegas because of their prestige value. And this is also why, despite the fact that it's a great track, you'll NEVER see F1 out in Salt Lake City.

I'm sure Bernie would LOVE to see a race in NY happen. So would I. But the reality is, even at the Meadowlands or LSP, it's going to cost an astronomical amount of money, without even considering the sanctioning fee and it will probably start a firestorm from the green brigade. And I'm sure he knows this. If he can make it work, I'll be first in line to buy a ticket. But I still say this is nothing but a big bluff to try and extort more money out of the IMS. Say what you want about Tony George (and I could say plenty) but without him, we probably wouldn't have had F1 in the US for the better part of the last decade. And now that he's gone (so to speak) those left in charge are probably not so willing to talk about F1 on anything other than their own terms.




#70 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 12:05

I just don't know. After sleeping on this one, as much as I would love to see a race in NY (NJ) in 2 years, I just can't see it happening. Whether it's in the Meadowlands or Liberty State Park

The only reason I suggested Liberty State Park was because Ecclestone said he wanted it fifteen minutes from Manhattan and with Manattan itself visible in the background. Liberty was the only location that fit the profile, unless you actually had something in Jersery City proper (which, next to Manhattan, would just seem pretty poor), like this:

http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3578320

But then you'd have to contend with the NIMBYs. The problem with Jersey City is that there's only a very limited commercial space (from what I can see), and the commercial district is where a race would have to be run. So you'd either have to get approval from thousands of residents to cut them off from the world for a week and make a lot of noise (which is never going to happen), or you get a wide open space like Liberty Park and have your race there. Those are the only options.

I'm guessing after Vegas officials told Bernie to take a hike he's using the threat of a NY Grand Prix to convince the board at Indy that they're not the only game in town. A plan which I'm sure will back fire anyway.

I don't think there's been any actual serious discussion of a Grand Prix in Las Vegas. Ecclestone has been talking about New York for a while now, and I haven't heard him mention Vegas. Certainly not in the way he's mentioned New York.

#71 jaisli

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 13:07

I don't think there's been any actual serious discussion of a Grand Prix in Las Vegas. Ecclestone has been talking about New York for a while now, and I haven't heard him mention Vegas. Certainly not in the way he's mentioned New York.


:confused: He's mentioned Las Vegas many times over the years--much more so than NY. He even talked about Vegas while the race was still at Indy. But granted, specifically mentioning NJ, view of the city and hoping for 2012 is the most specific he's been about either place.

While I don't doubt he's pursuing it, I still say the whole thing is a big bluff.

For the record, while I don't think Liberty State Park would be possible for the reason I and others already mentioned, all things considered, it's probably one of the few suitable locations. Some of the ideas being presented are pretty funny. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Fresh Kills landfill.




#72 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 13:16

:confused: He's mentioned Las Vegas many times over the years--much more so than NY. He even talked about Vegas while the race was still at Indy. But granted, specifically mentioning NJ, view of the city and hoping for 2012 is the most specific he's been about either place.

That's kind of what I'm getting at: when Mr. E starts talking about that sort of thing, it means he's making progress. Otherwise, it's all just a dream.

While I don't doubt he's pursuing it, I still say the whole thing is a big bluff.

A big bluff to get what? Indianapolis to agree? I'd see your point - if he hadn't lambasted the circuit.

For the record, while I don't think Liberty State Park would be possible for the reason I and others already mentioned, all things considered, it's probably one of the few suitable locations. Some of the ideas being presented are pretty funny. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Fresh Kills landfill.

The Rikers Island Grand Prix wasn't exactly serious ...

#73 One

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 13:31

the Fresh Kills landfill.


Tear Drop Memorial,... If it were a champcar series, it will make use of the place with lesser degrees of safety measure?


BTW Formula One in USA, Bernie is sure looking for the Monaco equivalent in USA, just like he is trying to hit Rome, an iconic place. The place Formula One can find its root there. Yet at Monaco you have those kings, while in US motor sport's Kings lives in IMS...


Besides, I can imagine Hollywood, but not Las vegas...

#74 jaisli

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 13:31

A big bluff to get what? Indianapolis to agree? I'd see your point - if he hadn't lambasted the circuit.


Yeah but he's done this with Silverstone for years and the Grand Prix is still there. And why? Because he can't come to terms with a suitable alternative.


#75 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 13:47

Yeah but he's done this with Silverstone for years and the Grand Prix is still there. And why? Because he can't come to terms with a suitable alternative.

He evidently feels New Jersey is a suitable alternative to Indianapolis. And unlike Silverstone, he was - and has been for some time - very, very critical of Indianapolis.

#76 One

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 13:51

Berrnie might be right.

Let me out this...

What about Griffith part up LA, next to Hollywood?

#77 jaisli

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 14:31

He evidently feels New Jersey is a suitable alternative to Indianapolis. And unlike Silverstone, he was - and has been for some time - very, very critical of Indianapolis.


I would say he evidently feels he can gain an advantage by making a comment. Does he feel it's a suitable alternative? There isn't even a track.

Are you really trying to say he's been critical of Indy and not Silverstone? What sources are you reading? I've read exactly three quotes from Bernie over the years where I remember him being critical of Indy. One was from the lack of promotion. And the other two were general comments, one just recently.

He's been slagging off Silverstone repeatedly for years, everything from the car parks to the facilities.

Edited by jaisli, 26 March 2010 - 14:33.


#78 Lazarus II

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 14:47

Berrnie might be right.

Let me out this...

What about Griffith part up LA, next to Hollywood?

LA the Prius capital? Adding to the gridlock which is LA in a almost bankrupt state :love: (and city)....exactly who and how would CA :love: (even if it is filled with too many pergressive liberals - read: socialists :p ) and LA pay Bernie's ransome figures?

Sure I think (at least IMO) "California is the place to be" for F1, but now's not the right time. And frankly, it probably never will be again. :cry:

#79 Kooper

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 15:01

Salt Lake City is the 48th largest metro area in the United States, after such powerhouse metropolis as Hartford, Jacksonville, Providence and Orlando.

So no, it's not a major metropolis, even if you and the Karl Malone jersey you're obviously wearing think it is.



don't be dissing on The Mailman!

NO more street circuits!!! Build a suitable road circuit about 10 miles outside Vegas, maybe alongside their NASCAR track.

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#80 Lazarus II

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 15:08

don't be dissing on The Mailman!

NO more street circuits!!! Build a suitable road circuit about 10 miles outside Vegas, maybe alongside their NASCAR track.

Who's going to build it? the Casino's? not on their life would they build a place that is going to take people away from their money-making machines. Sure they've bought a few golf courses...the key word there is a few. Mostly they just do deals w/the existing local clubs - it's cheaper.

They make money when you waste your money :p , not when you're at a F1 track which will be used twice a year. Forget about the casinos building a race track.....that can't run horses. :p

#81 One

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 15:26

LA the Prius capital? Adding to the gridlock which is LA in a almost bankrupt state :love: (and city)....exactly who and how would CA :love: (even if it is filled with too many pergressive liberals - read: socialists :p ) and LA pay Bernie's ransome figures?

Sure I think (at least IMO) "California is the place to be" for F1, but now's not the right time. And frankly, it probably never will be again. :cry:


LA has no moey for poor, but for rich...? :stoned:

Ah well there is only Utah left for Bernie to deal with..

#82 Kooper

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 15:39

well, the US is left w/ no alternative but to annex Montreal! Sorry Canada....  ;)

#83 Xpat

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 16:56

Bernie knows his best shot is Indianapolis. The facilities already exist and are to F1 standards without any massive investment. Indianapolis is better able to handle holding a F1 race than anywhere in the world (let alone the US), after all it was only the 3rd largest race in the city any given year.

I also think Bernie wants to be the big fish where ever he goes. He can do that in Indianapolis but not in Vegas or NYC. Now that TG is gone, he being the "wrong kind of people" Bernie was talking about, IMS might do a deal with him. I know the city misses the F1 fans from all over coming to town to spend their money.

#84 nordschleife

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 23:03

well, the US is left w/ no alternative but to annex Montreal! Sorry Canada.... ;)


Careful what you wish for. Quebec won't change for you, you'll have to change for it. It's like the French Australia, very, very much an acquired taste which frankly I don't see you acquiring. Besides it's the same driving distance to Le Circuit Gilles Villeneuve from New York with or without the border.

How about an equivalent surrogate US GP West in really really southern California? Like Cabo San Lucas?


#85 B Squared

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 12:02

From this morning's Indy Star:

http://www.indystar....-return-to-Indy

#86 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 12:06

It might be in the Indianapolis infield, but the circuit is not worthy of the title Indianapolis. It is absolute rubbish.

#87 Messi10

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 12:10

you can't deny that a super high speed turn with banking adds to the excitement and makes this circuit unique from the rest.

Edited by Messi10, 23 April 2010 - 12:10.


#88 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 12:19

you can't deny that a super high speed turn with banking adds to the excitement and makes this circuit unique from the rest.

If Eau Rogue was in the middle of Valencia rather than Spa, would you say it's worth going to Valencia? Indianapolis is a very, very poor circuit. It might have the banked curve, but it has no character, no identity. I'd rather a calendar that consisted exclusively of Valencia, Bahrain and Shanghai.

If the United States Grand Prix is half as important as fans make it out to be, then it deserves to be held on a circuit worthy of hosting the race.

#89 jaisli

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:29

So much for the NY Grand Prix. :lol: I wonder if it wasn't just a ruse to pressure the IMS that they weren't the only game in town.

#90 Clatter

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:35

you can't deny that a super high speed turn with banking adds to the excitement and makes this circuit unique from the rest.


I'd deny it. What does it add to the racing? They all followed the exact same line and it wasn't an overtaking oppurtunity. Unique it might have been, exciting it certainly wasn't.

#91 Clatter

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:36

So much for the NY Grand Prix. :lol: I wonder if it wasn't just a ruse to pressure the IMS that they weren't the only game in town.


IMHO it had/has as much chance of happening as the London GP.

#92 mkay

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:37

If Eau Rogue was in the middle of Valencia rather than Spa, would you say it's worth going to Valencia? Indianapolis is a very, very poor circuit. It might have the banked curve, but it has no character, no identity. I'd rather a calendar that consisted exclusively of Valencia, Bahrain and Shanghai.

If the United States Grand Prix is half as important as fans make it out to be, then it deserves to be held on a circuit worthy of hosting the race.


Imola had character but the races there were so dull... Likewise for Monaco, Hungaroring, etc.

You don't need character to be a good track. You need overtaking chances and nice duels and epic drives. We had that in Indy for several years. The run up to the first corner was always crazy and there were always plenty of overtaking. On the other hand, you can't say that for many "soul-less" GPs like Bahrain, China, Valencia, Singapore, etc.

Edited by mkay, 23 April 2010 - 13:37.


#93 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:40

So much for the NY Grand Prix. :lol: I wonder if it wasn't just a ruse to pressure the IMS that they weren't the only game in town.

The article from the Indy Star does not quote Ecclestone, who is probably the only person in the world who could say with any certainty whether or not Manhattan will be on. In fact, the article only quotes Zak Brown, who is little more than a publicist who seems to represent Indianapolis first, so of course he's going to say that it's on. And the entire article seems to have been written off a press release.

So I wouldn't go getting excited about it.

#94 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:41

You need overtaking chances and nice duels and epic drives. We had that in Indy for several years. The run up to the first corner was always crazy and there were always plenty of overtaking.

The first corner was the only place it was possible to overtake. Indianapolis was rubbish.

#95 Captain Cranckcase

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:42

Why was Long Beach cancelled? All the old footage I've seen the grandstands were full and as far as I am aware still are for Indycar.

#96 mkay

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:43

The first corner was the only place it was possible to overtake. Indianapolis was rubbish.


Whatever... For the record, drivers were able to overtake at the end of the back straight, as short as it is. It was hard, but a guy like Montoya or a Hamilton would have been able to pull it off.

It's not because the track does not have "epic" corners, or "history" that it isn't soulless. For the record, the Indy oval is likely older and has way more history than all of the other F1 tracks combined. I agree that they should alter the layout of the track, if F1 returns, but I strongly disagree that the track was rubbish. With Montreal, it always gave us great back-to-back races.

#97 Messi10

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:47

If the United States Grand Prix is half as important as fans make it out to be, then it deserves to be held on a circuit worthy of hosting the race.

I think the that F1 fans in the US think it is important, I would have another race to attend other than Canada, but more importantly the teams like it also.. (at least that's what I've read in the past).

#98 Messi10

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:49

who is probably the only person in the world who could say with any certainty whether or not Manhattan will be on.

????????
Manhattan, no way. there's no room here. maybe in jersey perhaps.. but I doubt it..

#99 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:53

????????
Manhattan, no way. there's no room here. maybe in jersey perhaps.. but I doubt it..

Well, it's being pitched as "Manhattan", but Manhattan will only feature in the background. He keeps referring to it as suh. Mr E reckons he's found a site fifteen minutes away from Manhattan Island in New Jersey that could host a race with the New York skyline in the background. I'm betting he's looking at Liberty Park adjacent to Ellis Island, and that he's calling it the "Manhattan Grand Prix" because that sounds better than "New Jersey Grand Prix".

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#100 Messi10

Messi10
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  • 885 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:56

This was a cool race.