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F1 attempts to return to the USA


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#101 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:58

This was a cool race.

Yeah, and it was seven years ago. Since Bernie wants an American race by 2012, that means that race will have been a decade old by the time it is run again. The sport wil have evolved so much that the cars will be producing exponential levels of downforce in comparison to their 2003 counterparts. Overtaking is likely to be very, very difficult.

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#102 B Squared

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 14:01

Why was Long Beach cancelled? All the old footage I've seen the grandstands were full and as far as I am aware still are for Indycar.


Then as now, Mr. Eccelstone and disputes over money. CART Indy Car stepped in and the crowds continued on.

#103 mkay

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 14:09

Yeah, and it was seven years ago. Since Bernie wants an American race by 2012, that means that race will have been a decade old by the time it is run again. The sport wil have evolved so much that the cars will be producing exponential levels of downforce in comparison to their 2003 counterparts. Overtaking is likely to be very, very difficult.


Proof?

#104 Messi10

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 14:19

Yeah, and it was seven years ago. Since Bernie wants an American race by 2012, that means that race will have been a decade old by the time it is run again. The sport wil have evolved so much that the cars will be producing exponential levels of downforce in comparison to their 2003 counterparts. Overtaking is likely to be very, very difficult.

drivers always complain about overtaking..

Average No. of passes per GP
2000:11.42
2001:10.60
2002:11.94

2007:11.21
2008:10.54
2009:10.40

not a whole lot difference..

#105 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 14:24

Proof?

Proof of what?

Of Ecclestone wanting a race in or near Manhattan by 2012? The date frequently comes up in any news artcle mentioning the proposed Manhattan and Sochi races.

Or of increased downforce making it harder to overtake? Paddy Lowe has admitted - linky: http://www.f1fanatic...downforce-cuts/ - that the problem with the 2010 cars isn't just the double diffuser, but the way the cars generate downforce through the floor of the car. This changes the shape of wake discharged at the rear of the car and makes it harder for a following car to get close enough to pass. But on the other hand, Adrian Newey claims that banning double diffusers and the like won't make it any easier to pass. Since they're at odds with one another, it's likely that regulation changes will be written to satisfy as many people as possible. It's therefore logical to conclude that while there may be a reduction in downforce, it will not be an extreme reduction.

#106 Lazarus II

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 15:00

A race in Manhatten has has no chance. There is NO WAY New Yorkers would allow it. Could you imagine the businesses that would be required to shut down for ? 2+ weeks while the track was assemble/disassembled :lol: not not way, but no f'in way.

#107 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 15:03

A race in Manhatten has has no chance. There is NO WAY New Yorkers would allow it. Could you imagine the businesses that would be required to shut down for ? 2+ weeks while the track was assemble/disassembled :lol: not not way, but no f'in way.

As I said before, it would be a "Manhattan Grand Prix", but not actually run in Manhattan - Bernie reckons he's got a few sites in New Jersey lined up, with the Manhattan skyline in the background. I reckonhe's set his sights on Liberty Park.

#108 sblick

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 15:50

When someone can tell me who is going to come up with the 50-100 million needed to build a track and facilities in the New York/ Jersey area I will start believing this rumor. There isn't a government local or state that will cough up this money for Bernie. The finance houses on Wall Street maybe but why? They don't support F1 anyway. New Jersey just spent tons on a new football stadium and New York is doing the same with arenas and stadiums. Spend 50-100 for facilities for a race that MAY be there for a a few years. RIDICULOUS. Indy has the facilities and is the only REAL option at this point until the economy picks up alot of steam.

Edited by sblick, 23 April 2010 - 15:51.


#109 Lazarus II

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 15:52

When someone can tell me who is going to come up with the 50-100 million needed to build a track and facilities in the New York/ Jersey area I will start believing this rumor. There isn't a government local or state that will cough up this money for Bernie. The finance houses on Wall Street maybe but why? They don't support F1 anyway. New Jersey just spent tons on a new football stadium and New York is doing the same with arenas and stadiums. Spend 50-100 for facilities for a race that MAY be there for a a few years. RIDICULOUS. Indy has the facilities and is the only REAL option at this point until the economy picks up alot of steam.

Exactly...a new Football stadium - sure...an F1 track :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

There's no chance for a ROI with F1.

Edited by Lazarus II, 23 April 2010 - 15:56.


#110 Messi10

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 15:54

When someone can tell me who is going to come up with the 50-100 million needed to build a track and facilities in the New York/ Jersey area I will start believing this rumor. There isn't a government local or state that will cough up this money for Bernie. The finance houses on Wall Street maybe but why? They don't support F1 anyway. New Jersey just spent tons on a new football stadium and New York is doing the same with arenas and stadiums. Spend 50-100 for facilities for a race that MAY be there for a a few years. RIDICULOUS. Indy has the facilities and is the only REAL option at this point until the economy picks up alot of steam.


exactly.. If F1 wants a race here in NYC, they should pay for it. There is no way New Yorkers would be filling up Bernie's pockets..

#111 Paco

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 16:42

Personally it's either 3 options - in order of interest and appeal to F1.

1. Indy on the Full Oval. It would involved extra expense and tweaks to the current F1 car; with specific setup for just 1 race. I still think this would be the ideal scenario for a USGP. Oval are readily accepted venues for US race fans and much easier to attact a crowd for. It also provides Formula 1 with a new challange for the engineers, drivers etc.

This option isn't unlike Monaco. Unique setup for a Unique venue.

The Indy inside circuit is utter nonsense and should be taken apart. The reverse oval section never really was a challenge or provided any real interesting character to an event.

2. Beach Side Race (California / Miami)

NY is out of the question. Security, logistics and tightness of Manhattan make it realistically a no go.

San Fran, Miami and Long Beach are probably the 3 best options.

Miami, South Beach Ocean Drive / Miami Marina seems to me to stick as the most attractive scenario. A race that includes Deco allay down to the Miami ports etc. woud make for a interesting setup. Excellent and Vibrant night life. Easy to attact people to come down the race. Most Euro/Worldly location. Disneyland/Busch Gardens/KennedySpaceCenter etc. close by Families who make an extended trip of the event.

Posted Image

LongBeach would be good to, close to Disney and Hollywood studies and other attactions.

SanFran would be good just not sure where the street course would be laid out A incredible view of Golden Gate would need to be considered where to lay it out. Since new track designers seem to like chicanes, the cars would definitely need to go down Lombard Street

Posted Image

Posted Image

3. Las Vegas Street Circuit.

The only reason to not consider is because there would a lot of comparison to Monaco and Monaco would lose some of it's uniqueness. I for one used to think it was a good idea to run there, less so now. BTW, i go to Vegas 3-5 times a year and absolutely love the city.

Edited by Paco, 23 April 2010 - 16:45.


#112 Lazarus II

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 17:06

California is broke, so wouldn't expect to see the taxpayers ponying up the cash to build or renovate any existing tracks. Laguna while great fun to drive is totally unrealistic; hwy 68 is two lane and would kill traffic to-from Monterey/Carmel, existing noise ordances, inadequate infrastructure, etc etc.

Vegas is still run by the Casinos and it doesn't pay to have a race through the streets of Vegas - that gets patrons OUT of their comfy seat where they are spending money and watching an event where those same patron aren't spending money in the casinos....no chance of that happening either. Vegas is also in dire straights right now - worse than California.

#113 Paco

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 17:17

California is broke, so wouldn't expect to see the taxpayers ponying up the cash to build or renovate any existing tracks. Laguna while great fun to drive is totally unrealistic; hwy 68 is two lane and would kill traffic to-from Monterey/Carmel, existing noise ordances, inadequate infrastructure, etc etc.

Vegas is still run by the Casinos and it doesn't pay to have a race through the streets of Vegas - that gets patrons OUT of their comfy seat where they are spending money and watching an event where those same patron aren't spending money in the casinos....no chance of that happening either. Vegas is also in dire straights right now - worse than California.


That's not entirely case. Attacting 50-100,000 people to the city for a weekend event would bring a tremendous amount of people to the city and casino's which would lead to Casino revenue (hotels, food and gambling). Their butts still would be gambling at peak hours (between 6pm and 2am). Casino's aren't exactly raking in the money during the typical hours for which a race would be held. They're slower in the morning and midday. Either you're recovering from partying or it's the older folks who are site seeing and walking around or penny slotting it.

Vegas has started to pick up again from since the really slow period. Not fully yet but better.

If it make sense to, the money would be found by city, state and federal assistance if the business case made sense to.

Does anyone have a sense of what it would cost a city like Vegas to put on an Event from Scratch on a temperory road course? 10, 25, 50 million??? Can't imagine it would be any more then 50..

So something like:

5 from the Casino's a local businesses
10 from Vegas
15 from Nevada
20 from Federal Funding

Seems hardly unrealistic that those funds could be found is there was a real chance and desire to hold the event there...

Edited by Paco, 23 April 2010 - 17:21.


#114 Messi10

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 17:18

I am game for Miami..
Posted Image

#115 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 17:23

I love the Indy F1 track. I actually got a game saved in GP4 currently. Me leading a Ferrari one 2 :D Yea I always enjoyed the races there, and being awake around 3am onwards for it and Canada was late night as well, but I loved it! Seems such a waste that it aint in F1. Too bad about 2005, and about RS hitting the barrier twice I think it was. Shame that it hasn't been on the calendar every year since 2000...

#116 VAR1016

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 18:43

Could there be a circuit with a better name than Road America?

I'd be interested in views of this as a possible venue: I suppose it does not conform to Bernie's ideas of what a circuit should be (after all it wasn't designed by Tilke was it?) but given the enormous sums of money being talked about on this thread surely it could be upgraded to meet requirements for rather less?

#117 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 18:49

Could there be a circuit with a better name than Road America?

I'd be interested in views of this as a possible venue: I suppose it does not conform to Bernie's ideas of what a circuit should be (after all it wasn't designed by Tilke was it?) but given the enormous sums of money being talked about on this thread surely it could be upgraded to meet requirements for rather less?


It's true, Elkhart Lake is a fabulous name. :wave:

#118 Bunchies

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 18:51

2. Beach Side Race (California / Miami)

NY is out of the question. Security, logistics and tightness of Manhattan make it realistically a no go.

San Fran, Miami and Long Beach are probably the 3 best options.

Miami, South Beach Ocean Drive / Miami Marina seems to me to stick as the most attractive scenario. A race that includes Deco allay down to the Miami ports etc. woud make for a interesting setup. Excellent and Vibrant night life. Easy to attact people to come down the race. Most Euro/Worldly location. Disneyland/Busch Gardens/KennedySpaceCenter etc. close by Families who make an extended trip of the event.

Posted Image

LongBeach would be good to, close to Disney and Hollywood studies and other attactions.

SanFran would be good just not sure where the street course would be laid out A incredible view of Golden Gate would need to be considered where to lay it out. Since new track designers seem to like chicanes, the cars would definitely need to go down Lombard Street

Posted Image

Posted Image


What if they started the race on treasure island, and incorporated the upper and lower decks of the bay bridge as the main straights? Any camera would have panoramic views of the city/golden gate bridge/alcatraz. Of course, it would require massive cooperation that would be highly unlikely/impossible. But it certainly would be awesome to see f1 cars fly across the upper deck and brake down one of the wider offramps into a return trip through the lower tunnel.

We can dream.

Edit: Like so: It would require some retooling of that area for pits and what have you, but IF the area AND the bay bridge could be used, it could be potentially awesome.

If you follow the streetview from point A, the track would head to the right, across a short twisty section to the upper deck of the bridge. They would then fly across to San Francisco and take the sweeping righthand offramp onto Fremont St. They would continue down, head right on Harrison, then left to head back to the bridge...this time the lower deck. They would exit the left hand 15mph hairpin heading uphill, before making a sharp hairpin left back at point G/A.

http://maps.google.c...e...mp;t=h&z=14

Edited by Bunchies, 23 April 2010 - 19:39.


#119 Lazarus II

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 20:03

That's not entirely case. Attacting 50-100,000 people to the city for a weekend event would bring a tremendous amount of people to the city and casino's which would lead to Casino revenue (hotels, food and gambling). Their butts still would be gambling at peak hours (between 6pm and 2am). Casino's aren't exactly raking in the money during the typical hours for which a race would be held. They're slower in the morning and midday. Either you're recovering from partying or it's the older folks who are site seeing and walking around or penny slotting it.

Vegas has started to pick up again from since the really slow period. Not fully yet but better.

If it make sense to, the money would be found by city, state and federal assistance if the business case made sense to.

Does anyone have a sense of what it would cost a city like Vegas to put on an Event from Scratch on a temperory road course? 10, 25, 50 million??? Can't imagine it would be any more then 50..

So something like:

5 from the Casino's a local businesses
10 from Vegas
15 from Nevada
20 from Federal Funding

Seems hardly unrealistic that those funds could be found is there was a real chance and desire to hold the event there...

There is none.


Having lived there for many years and still having some friends left in high places, they said not no way but no f'in way.

I think it's still the 'foreclosure capital' not that anyone wants that stigma attached to their city. I've got friends buying what were $450k and up houses for $120k; granted they were never really $450k houses to begin with, but that's 1) how screwed up the market was and 2) what people were willing to pay. Don't get me wrong they are somewaht nice houses, but they were never $450k houses....and I lived in the Bay Area longer than Vegas so I'm used to ridiculously priced houses.


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#120 Paco

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 20:20

There is none.


Having lived there for many years and still having some friends left in high places, they said not no way but no f'in way.

I think it's still the 'foreclosure capital' not that anyone wants that stigma attached to their city. I've got friends buying what were $450k and up houses for $120k; granted they were never really $450k houses to begin with, but that's 1) how screwed up the market was and 2) what people were willing to pay. Don't get me wrong they are somewaht nice houses, but they were never $450k houses....and I lived in the Bay Area longer than Vegas so I'm used to ridiculously priced houses.


City isn't going to handout money back to tax payers because they were fullish during crazy real estate bubble. Funny how one day your the fatest growing city in the US with no infrastructure to support it then your the foreclosure capital of the US (sure it's neck and neck with Florida).

Foreclosure is one thing totally unconnected to a sporting event.. that doesn't mean the city/state doesn't have money to stage a world wide event. ALL olympic cities do not have the ability to fund an Olympics without city/state/federal and private money and yet major cities around the world find a way to hold it. Many going into debt for several years under the notion that it's builds infracture that can be used later by the city and yet most building going unused and are a tax burden to their residents.

So just because a city/state is broke.. doesn't mean it lacks the ability to hold an event. With F1 being a week/weekend type activity using 90% of the CURRENT city infracture with very little actually building necessary (other then street temporary changes or improvements). It's not as if the F1 faternity is saying.. build a standalone track and we will come. It would only be possible as a street course. As for media and team support facilities, Vegas has that covered without batting an eyelash. Shutting down a major road such as the main drag there for a weekend would be an non issue for them. Hell, it's pratically that now with the construction on going.

That still doesn't mean Vegas isn't equiped or incapable financially of staging a race. If anything, it's probably one of the best suited for it (# of hotels, location, able to get to the venue, entertain etc.). It's just a matter of will and desire to do so. And there in lies the problem with the whole Vegas option. If they have enough to consider bringing a hockey team there and buidling an arena which would cost at least 10x what it would to hold a F1 race and promote itself to the world vs. just Canada a tiny fraction of the US. It's just a matter of having someone like Mario spearheading it and making a solid case of why Vegas would make sense.

Personally though, i'd like it to be Indy on a full oval. History, tradition, interest of something new in F1 etc..

Keep it simple.. the other options other then Vegas are logistical challenges and would need some serious thinking and support to ever get off the ground.

Edited by Paco, 23 April 2010 - 20:28.


#121 Xpat

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 08:59

I don't see any US state governments (the Federal government would never do it anyway) giving Bernie a dime. Megalomaniacal troglodyte billionaires aren't very popular with the electorate in the US right now.

The main benefit of Indianapolis is that F1 grade facilities already exist and the city doesn't have to make many, if any adjustments to host a race. The deal would have to be between IMS and F1/Bernie because the city and state won't pay for F1.

The general view in Indianapolis is that F1 can take its dog and pony show to Outer Mongolia to race for the yaks. The press hated it because they didn't have the access they had at the other races in the city. The press loved going on air for the evening news only to say, "Some racing stuff happened but we can't show you any of it unless it's what we are fed by this unpleasant little man." The city was glad to have the race but didn't grovel quite enough for Bernie, so he didn't like the city. After Schumacher/Barrichello idiocy in 2002 and the Michelin mess (A French company ruining the race?!?) it was going to be difficult to get the locals back on board.

I'd love to have it there because it is convenient for me and it's a great place to watch races.

#122 snafu

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 02:31

Looks like ToKNee is working against the sister's and mom, look at the players


George courting F1 again, but maybe not for Indy
April 24, 2010
Tony George, who was Indianapolis Motor Speedway and Indy Racing League chairman until last June, was in China for several days this month to attend F1's Chinese Grand Prix in Shanghai April 18 at the invitation of F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone.

Tony George is trying to bring Formula One racing back to the United States—but not necessarily to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

George, who was IMS and Indy Racing League chairman until last June, was in China for several days earlier this month to attend F1’s Chinese Grand Prix in Shanghai April 18 at the invitation of F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone.

While there, George met at length with Ecclestone and Zak Brown, founder and CEO of Just Marketing International, an Indianapolis-based motorsports marketing firm that represents several high-level F1 sponsors.

Brown and other sources close to F1 said George was there to discuss the series’ future in the United States, examine China’s motorsports sponsorship base, and meet with global motorsports sponsors who could potentially back a U.S. F1 race.

Despite interest from IMS and local tourism officials in bringing the event back to Indianapolis, that might not be George’s intention.

The Speedway hosted an F1 race from 2000-2007, but the event left after George and Ecclestone couldn’t come to an agreement that made financial sense for both sides. F1 also has hosted a race in six other U.S. cities since 1980. Each failed, primarily for financial reasons.

Still, the allure of the growing international racing circuit is undeniable.

“Certainly, a Formula One race would be a high-profile event that could boost our region on a number of levels,” said Indianapolis Convention & Visitors Association CEO Don Welsh. “The international draw is very appealing.”

But bringing a U.S. Grand Prix to New York is Ecclestone’s No. 1 choice in returning the series to American soil, and George could be part of a deal to make that happen—and could even play a part in organizing the race, Brown said.

Oddly, Chris Pook, former head of IRL’s nemesis, Champ Car, has been one of Ecclestone’s recent lieutenants in establishing an F1 presence in the U.S. market.
Jeff Belskus, who replaced George last July as head of the Speedway and IRL, said George was not in China representing the Speedway or IRL. Belskus added that he was not apprised of George’s trip in advance.

Belskus said the Speedway would be interested in bringing an F1 race back under the right financial circumstances. Motorsports business experts said Ecclestone would have to lower the F1 sanctioning fee, which ranges from $10 million to $30 million annually, to make the race feasible in Indianapolis.

Belskus added that he does not think George would work against Hulman-George business interests.

“I believe we have a good relationship with Tony,” Belskus said. “That’s how I’d characterize it.”

The Speedway and IRL’s board fired George after last year’s Indianapolis 500. The board—which is composed of George’s three sisters, mother and family attorney—offered to keep George as head of the IRL, but he declined.

George continued to operate his IRL team, Vision Racing, through 2009, but folded it earlier this year, citing lack of sponsorship money.

George sunk $30 million of the Hulman-George family fortune into building the 2.6-mile serpentine road course and other infrastructure needed for the USGP at the Speedway. George earlier this year resigned from the board of the Hulman-George family of companies, and protecting and maximizing a return on that investment may no longer be his primary interest.

Ecclestone has made it clear that he prefers to put an F1 race in a city larger than Indianapolis. Though there is no formal relationship between George and Ecclestone, George could be a player in the deal to get that done, sources close to the discussions said.

“Would Tony George love to broker a deal to bring back a U.S. Grand Prix? Sure,” said Brown, who confirmed his part in the discussions between George and Ecclestone.

Ecclestone has invited George to several F1 races this year and was eager to hear the IRL founder’s input on bringing F1 back to America, Brown said.

“Tony has a lot of contacts in motorsports, and he knows how to put on a U.S. Grand Prix,” Brown said. “I think if there’s a role for Tony in trying to bring Formula One back to the U.S., he’d be willing to help. Tony and Bernie have a very good relationship, and Tony has a lot of interest in seeing F1 return to the U.S.”

Given his departure from the Speedway, it’s difficult to say where George’s interests in F1 lie. Brown said George simply wants to see motorsports of all types flourish domestically.

Ecclestone also has an eye on other U.S. markets, including San Francisco, Las Vegas and Miami. Brown said long term, Ecclestone may have interest in holding two races on U.S. soil. F1 sponsors have not been shy about voicing their interest in getting into American markets.

A major thrust by F1 into the United States could imperil IRL sponsorships and other business interests, said Tim Frost, president of Frost Motorsports, a Chicago-based motorsports business consultancy.

Randy Bernard, the IRL’s new CEO under Belskus, didn’t discount that notion.

“Anything in the entertainment world from the NFL to F1 is a competitor,” Bernard said.

He hedged when asked if bringing F1 back to the IMS would be in the best interest of the financially struggling IRL.

“If it is good for the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, the city and the state, who am I to make a formal opinion to the contrary?” Bernard said. “But if it failed … the last time it was here, why would it come back?”

Brown thinks F1’s U.S. growth would help all domestic motorsports.

“It would only increase the spotlight on the sport of racing, and that’s good for the Indy Racing League,” Brown said.

A return by F1 to Indianapolis would undeniably boost the Speedway’s image as a premier motorsports venue, Frost said. But if F1 shuns the Speedway for another market, that could damage the facility’s reputation.

“If the world’s top level of motor racing returned to the U.S. and didn’t locate at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, you’d really have to scratch your head,” Frost said.

George, who could not be reached for comment, would appear to have at least some interest in seeing an F1 event run at the track owned by his family’s business empire.

“He still has an ownership stake in the Speedway,” Frost said. “I’m not sure why he would work to bring it anywhere else unless he’s simply convinced it wouldn’t work there.”•

#123 MatsNorway

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 16:07

Personally i much rather see a full oval race than a silly lap in the middle of the Indianapolis. people would come just to see how fast the indy could be done.

What about Talladega? isnt that the fastest track US got?

#124 Rob

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 16:09

F1 should avoid Tony George like the plague. We've got Bernie and co to ruin things for us, we don't need him to do it as well.

#125 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 16:48

There could be a few other options too, including San Francisco and Washington D.C. I know it may sound lame, but the Washington D.C. circuits on Race Driver: Grid were really good - quite wide, ran through a section of park at the bottom of Capitol Hill, and was pretty quick as street circuits go.

A 'hobby' of mine is Google Earth-ing cities and trying to make street circuits there, so out of curiosity I tried to find the Grid ones in D.C, and here's what I came up with: (Quick edit, it runs anticlockwise.)

Posted Image

It differs slightly from the game, for instance it went through a tunnel, but from this map it would be unfeasible and too narrow, so I extended the straight at south-east section and added a slipstreaming opportunity. I know a pitlane would be difficult to place, but I just want an idea for a basic layout. Finally, there's plenty of room for grandstands and fan/crowd areas.


I used to work just off that map, and there's no way. A lot of those routes aren't even open to normal pedestrian traffic. Made it a real PITA to walk to an appointment on the other side of the White House. The Secret Service would never allow that kind of event within the protective perimeter they secure around the WH.

Interesting idea, though.

I also watched one of the ALMS races at the temporary circuit they set up in DC, it was interesting and REALLY cool to see from a Metro train as it swooped over the parking lot, but it was a really crappy parking lot track.

#126 fastlegs

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 16:59

This was a cool race.


It certainly was.

I had the good fortune to be in attendance and had a seat right at the end of the straight.

It was an incredible experience.

I'd love to see F1 come back to the US again, only this time to the westcoast.

#127 JimmyStew

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 19:18

Does Watkins Glen still exist?

I'd love to see Grand prix cars at Laguna Seca. Imagine Hamilton and Vettel fighting while going through the Corkscrew...

#128 Villes Gilleneuve

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 19:41

Keep it simple.. the other options other then Vegas are logistical challenges and would need some serious thinking and support to ever get off the ground.



F1 was in Vegas, it was a joke parking lot circuit. arguably the worst F1 race ever.

Aside from Indy, maybe Daytona, there isn't a road track in the US that is safe enough for f1, these tracks are very poorly maintained.

Watkins Glen could work, but with a major cash influx. Anyway, not gonna happen, the US is seriously broke. Everywhere.

#129 rmac923

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 20:14

Does Watkins Glen still exist?

I'd love to see Grand prix cars at Laguna Seca. Imagine Hamilton and Vettel fighting while going through the Corkscrew...


Watkins Glen is undergoing it's first major circuit upgrade since it was reconfigured in 1971. :eek:

I don't know if it'll become a Class-1 circuit though.

Of course, this is all moot point, Watkins Glen is owned by ISC.

ISC = Nascar

Not Happening.

#130 917k

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 20:50

Most every race at Indy [with more than 6 cars!] had lots of passing and good entertainment value, so why hate on the track? And, for viewing, it really can't be beat......you can sit almost anywhere Friday and Sat. with GA ticket.

My trip, in 2001, was memorable and very enjoyable.....I would go again for sure.

#131 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 23:02

F1 was in Vegas, it was a joke parking lot circuit. arguably the worst F1 race ever.

Yeah, bu that was more of a marketing ploy by Caesars' Palace than anything else. If Formula 1 went to Las Vegas, Bernie Ecclestone would make sure the race was run on a proper circuit.

#132 hotstickyslick

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 23:07

I hate the infield at Indy, I wish they'd just use the whole oval instead but that's never going to happen with how the rules are.

A return to Long Beach would be nice.

#133 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 23:35

Road Atlanta and Road America are great tracks and in fact Sears Point (hate calling it Infineon), is a superb track...however this is not about great tracks.

Its about money, spectacle and profile. Having attended many of the Indy GP's, they were good....but man, do you feel like you are out in the sticks in the middle of nowhere!

The prime venues I would have thought would be a return to Long Beach, or a completely new Las Vegas Track that uses the strip for a start finish straight and temp paddock like Monaco, and then a purpose built track section off the strip that could be used as a track in its own right. Vegas is bleeding currently, and bringing the GP there would be a huge boost, but it would need to be done right.

#134 Xpat

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 12:51

Road Atlanta and Road America are great tracks and in fact Sears Point (hate calling it Infineon), is a superb track...however this is not about great tracks.

Its about money, spectacle and profile. Having attended many of the Indy GP's, they were good....but man, do you feel like you are out in the sticks in the middle of nowhere!


Well, let's not apply "the out in the sticks in the middle of nowhere." rule to F1 races. Silverstone is the sticks and in the middle of nowhere as well (and I love watching races there, been the last 3 years). Indianapolis (used to live there) is not an exciting city but never felt in the middle of nowhere in a city with 1 million+ people.

I would be curious to see the current F1 cars on the oval at IMS. I imagine the speeds would be comparable to the IRL cars. I think the speeds seen at the 1996 race are not likely to be seen again any time soon regardless of the cars, the track won't handle much more I don't think.

#135 Kucki

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 13:07

I would love to see F1 on an oval, it would be fantastic seeing Vettel Hamilton Alonso Schumacher taking a new challenge and racing wheel to wheel close to each other for such a long time as you can do an oval. But with the amount of downforce the cars create at higher speeds it will likely be full throttle all the time which wouldnt be as exciting as it could be. A slower oval would be better were they have to lift off the gas in the corners.

Or how about a Roval like Daytona RC, it would also be a very safe track with all the run off areas in the infield.

I would love to see F1 at Road America.

#136 loki

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 01:47

Yeah, bu that was more of a marketing ploy by Caesars' Palace than anything else. If Formula 1 went to Las Vegas, Bernie Ecclestone would make sure the race was run on a proper circuit.


The only option is the downtown street circuit used by Champ Car a few years back. With minimal work they could get it back in operation but the snag is getting someone to back the race. Saward recently said that a race day crowd of about 100,000 at IMS would be able to pay for half of it. The rest would need to come from sponsorship. F1 is going to have to pay to play here as F1 needs the market more than the market needs F1.


#137 Lazarus II

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 02:02

it's that always the key, getting someone to pay for it?

Good luck getting someone in Vegas to 'pay for it' :lol:

#138 pingu666

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 02:53

the current f1 cars have about 750hp, indycars 650ish i think.... a trimmed out f1 car would probably reach 240mph atleast

ofcourse if you want a rovel theres panoco...

#139 FigJam

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 04:22

I know its never going to happen but the chance of an F1 race at Indy, running the full oval, would be seriously good. Trim them out and sort the men from the boys. :up:

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#140 loki

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:54

it's that always the key, getting someone to pay for it?

Good luck getting someone in Vegas to 'pay for it' :lol:


Depends on the price. The LVCVA has a fund specifically for promoting tourism. That fund was used for some of the Champ Car race and also for the Cup Event and to get the NASCAR year end banquet to town. If it makes sense someone will get the funding. The issue is that at a sanctioning fee of 10 of millions of dollars it doesn't make economic sense. The rodeo and bull riders have a larger impact on the economy than F1 for a fraction of the cost. Same with the large trade shows. We'd love to have F1 but at the price we'll make a lot more money by hosting Concrete World or CES.

A couple of thoughts regarding some other poster's comments...

As far as having a race that used part of The Strip in Vegas as a start/finish with a purpose built track adjacent isn't going to happen. First, there isn't enough space. And at around US$10 mil/acre for strip or strip adjacent property it doesn't make sense. The only thing that could come close is down on the south end at Mandalay Bay around the hotel and through the parking lot. It would be tough to get it more than two miles in length and it wouldn't be very wide. It's downtown or nothing. SMI has the land out at LVMS but they aren't going to pay to either build the circuit or the sanctioning fee. They'd do better by buying another track with a Cup date and moving one here.

A decade ago the CART cars were above 240 mph at the speedway. It's too fast to be safe and slowed them down. These days they keep them slower because of costs as well but I think we won't be seeing anything above 230 or so any more at the speedway. I miss those days but understand that for a few reasons they can't go that fast anymore.





#141 Xpat

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:07

the current f1 cars have about 750hp, indycars 650ish i think.... a trimmed out f1 car would probably reach 240mph atleast

ofcourse if you want a rovel theres panoco...


I'm not sure if hp is that relevant a factor. I seem to remember the Pre-IRL cars having 800hp or so and managed 237mph lap average. I think the Texas almost race in 2001 showed the limiting factor is the soft part behind the wheel.

I remember Michael Schumacher commenting on the possibility of running flat out into the banked turns (on the oval) and not lifting. He didn't seem to like the idea much. I think it is a test not unlike not lifting through Eau Rouge, a combination of bravery and faith.

#142 Lazarus II

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:31

Depends on the price. The LVCVA has a fund specifically for promoting tourism. That fund was used for some of the Champ Car race and also for the Cup Event and to get the NASCAR year end banquet to town. If it makes sense someone will get the funding. The issue is that at a sanctioning fee of 10 of millions of dollars it doesn't make economic sense. The rodeo and bull riders have a larger impact on the economy than F1 for a fraction of the cost. Same with the large trade shows. We'd love to have F1 but at the price we'll make a lot more money by hosting Concrete World or CES.

A couple of thoughts regarding some other poster's comments...

As far as having a race that used part of The Strip in Vegas as a start/finish with a purpose built track adjacent isn't going to happen. First, there isn't enough space. And at around US$10 mil/acre for strip or strip adjacent property it doesn't make sense. The only thing that could come close is down on the south end at Mandalay Bay around the hotel and through the parking lot. It would be tough to get it more than two miles in length and it wouldn't be very wide. It's downtown or nothing. SMI has the land out at LVMS but they aren't going to pay to either build the circuit or the sanctioning fee. They'd do better by buying another track with a Cup date and moving one here.

A decade ago the CART cars were above 240 mph at the speedway. It's too fast to be safe and slowed them down. These days they keep them slower because of costs as well but I think we won't be seeing anything above 230 or so any more at the speedway. I miss those days but understand that for a few reasons they can't go that fast anymore.

So you agreed with what I said then. No one bets like the Bull Riders either.

#143 loki

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 07:37

So you agreed with what I said then. No one bets like the Bull Riders either.



Yep but I think if CVC came to the table with some skin in the game and offered to promote the race, keep the gate and pickup most of the hard costs I think they'd find some willing partners. These days while the best margins are in gaming, the bulk of the revenue is from non gaming, food, shows, shopping, rooms, etc. One of the primary reasons the economy was hit so bad was more due to the convention market than the gaming/tourism market. The tourism numbers weren't as bad as the business/convention market as it drives a lot of high margin business. It's good to see Pook involved in some capacity as he has the ability (but not the dough) to put the whole thing together. He was the head of the Long Beach Grand Prix Association for quite a while and was instrumental in building the event.

#144 pingu666

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 14:34

I'm not sure if hp is that relevant a factor. I seem to remember the Pre-IRL cars having 800hp or so and managed 237mph lap average. I think the Texas almost race in 2001 showed the limiting factor is the soft part behind the wheel.

I remember Michael Schumacher commenting on the possibility of running flat out into the banked turns (on the oval) and not lifting. He didn't seem to like the idea much. I think it is a test not unlike not lifting through Eau Rouge, a combination of bravery and faith.


I do think its a test and probably one you cant really aprieate until you do it. i think indy is really narrow when your doing 230mph, and the cars are setup to be neatural as possible, with hardly any tyre scrub, so any inputs are extremily direct...

#145 Xpat

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 16:08

I do think its a test and probably one you cant really aprieate until you do it. i think indy is really narrow when your doing 230mph, and the cars are setup to be neatural as possible, with hardly any tyre scrub, so any inputs are extremily direct...


I think Schumacher's quote had something to do with Turn 1 (the oval turn 1) looking very narrow and the wall looking very unforgiving. (Ask poor Stan Fox)

#146 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 08:52

A proposal has been sumbitted for a circuit n Liberty State Park (I was right!), across from Ellis Island and Manhattan. I won't bother linking to it, since I know you're all going to hate it simply because it's new. Apparently an environemntal group forced the organisers' hand. I'm guessing the notion of building upon the first bit of land immigrants stepped onto and changing it into a racing circuit is going to be a difficult pill to swallow. Interestingly, there is no word on who designed it. It's decidedly un-Tilke-like, and the Tilke GmbH website makes no mention of the project.

Now, remmeber when I said I wouldn't show you the proposal?

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I lied.

#147 Rob

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:30

won't bother linking to it, since I know you're all going to hate it simply because it's new. Apparently an environemntal group forced the organisers' hand. I'm guessing the notion of building upon the first bit of land immigrants stepped onto and changing it into a racing circuit is going to be a difficult pill to swallow. Interestingly, there is no word on who designed it. It's decidedly un-Tilke-like, and the Tilke GmbH website makes no mention of the project.


I'm guessing that the purple line is the circuit. I actually prefer the circuit made up by the roads that are highlighted in pink. :)

It's OK, but it could be better without the crazy bit to the southwest. It seems that circuit designers these days try to put too many corners in. If they just followed the layout of the existing roads it would be fantastic.

#148 johnmhinds

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:09

Where would the pit straight be on that circuit?

It looks poo, lets just got back to Indianapolis.

#149 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:13

It's OK, but it could be better without the crazy bit to the southwest. It seems that circuit designers these days try to put too many corners in. If they just followed the layout of the existing roads it would be fantastic.

Remember, it's only a proposal that's been made two years ahead of the event. A lot of circuits change; Bahrain originally had a few extra curves up around turn four that were removed from the final draft.

#150 Rob

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:17

Remember, it's only a proposal that's been made two years ahead of the event. A lot of circuits change; Bahrain originally had a few extra curves up around turn four that were removed from the final draft.


True. I just think that the perimiter road looks like a fantastic circuit that we could end up missing out on.