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F1 attempts to return to the USA


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#251 Dan333SP

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 23:50

Here's mine, a bit long at 8 miles but it's on the beach and on the only decently curvy streets in the city-
http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3753892

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#252 Dan333SP

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 23:54

And in hindsight, don't think anyone would go for a 2 mile long straight a few feet from the water ending in a 90 degree sharp turn onto a bridge.

#253 loki

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:43

There's some good ideas contained in this thread. However, FOM is seeking a location in and around NYC. They want that demographic. As to why, I can only speculate along with the rest of you.


I think they want the location more than the demographic. Most of the New Yorkers will have zero interest in motorsport though there will be some from the tri state that will attend. NYC is the largest media market in the world and I'd think that rather than the inhabitants of the area is the fascination with that location. The foot traffic would have been better at Liberty but in the Catskills that's going to shut out a pretty significant portion of the curious and leave it more to race and F1 fans. I'd bet they still get 100k even if it's at Monticello. I'd reckon most of the attendees will be from other areas in North America and Europe.


#254 rdrcr

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 02:36

I think they want the location more than the demographic. Most of the New Yorkers will have zero interest in motorsport though there will be some from the tri state that will attend. NYC is the largest media market in the world and I'd think that rather than the inhabitants of the area is the fascination with that location. The foot traffic would have been better at Liberty but in the Catskills that's going to shut out a pretty significant portion of the curious and leave it more to race and F1 fans. I'd bet they still get 100k even if it's at Monticello. I'd reckon most of the attendees will be from other areas in North America and Europe.


Sure, I understand the massive media market there and the huge potential for TV and other media outlets to generate the sort of financial returns they'll be needing to justify their presence in the N.A. marketplace. Seemingly, the current mindset of the FOM is; they want to be smack dab in the middle of major city like Montreal, which has been a huge success over the years. Though can't one put forth a compelling argument that the TV rights and the plethora of other commercial income streams can be targeted in nearly any major US market? So. CA, Miami, NYC, and a few, select other venues are also quite viable IMO. Is it not true that there is a greatly improved strategic penetration of many (worldwide) media markets by the web and the ongoing lucrative TV licensing and syndications? Moreover, I ruminate the more control FOM has over a venue, the more they'd be attracted to it. In simple terms, why share when you don't have to? All that was part of my initial presentation.

#255 Cr0aker

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 03:30

1) Three words, it's in Utah...
2) "Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may be in Utah". Who in the world wants to go to Utah that doesn't have to?
3) There are no major metropolii anywhere in Utah. It's Utah... The biggest attactions in Utah are a huge hole in the ground and a dead lake.


I really don't think the F1 crowd is going to flock to Utah. In general, people go to races to have fun and when most folks think of fun places to go, it's doubtful that Utah tops the list (heh, it's doubtful that Utah even makes the list). What do you do after the race? Go check out the Mormon Tabernacle Choir?

I've been there, and invariably the best part of visiting Utah is getting on the plane for the flight out...


I have one word for you. BAHRAIN

It’s in the freaking desert. There is no drinking. The stands are half empty. The track and the racing suck.

Oh and for those of you that have not been to GP’s before, take this into account. Spa is surrounded by nothing but forest, and one little village with about ten places to eat. Although there is a steak place there on the main drag that is pretty great. Everyone camps out in the fields surrounding the village. Same for the German GP every other year when it is at the Ring. So saying that it should not be in Utah because there is not much to do is B.S. The fans that camp out at the races are what make it fun. The track needs to be great and the stands need to be full. Period.

The sad fact in my opinion is that there will be no USGP until Bernie realizes that he needs us more than we need him. FOTA already understands that. Especially the teams like Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull. Bernie has to realize that he must make a deal that will guarantee the venue and the city make money. Most countries subsidize the race simply due to the fact that they have no/limited international exposure in the sporting world, or because of the demand for a race by its citizens’. This is not the case in the U.S. If F1 never returned 95% of the country would never notice or care if they did.

Bernie has to lower his fees. When fans are paying between $200-1500 for tickets and the track still takes a loss there is a problem. My tickets at Eau Rouge last year were nearly $700 per ticket. Great seats yes, but not the most expensive by a long shot. I’m not sure if Spa makes money, but I think they operate at a loss. Just like most of the tracks on the calender. Not great if you ask me. Don’t even get me started on how you are treated at races either. Go to an F1 race and then go to the 24hr at the Ring and you will be done with giving money to Bernie.


#256 ViMaMo

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 03:58

I would love to see a 8 km to 10 km length track at USA.

#257 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 04:24

I would love to see a 8 km to 10 km length track at USA.

It won't happen - FIA regulations dictate that the maximum allowable circuit lengh is 7km.

#258 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 05:11

Again, Bernie is not interested in "growing" F1, "promoting" F1, or really anything at all "F1" except what he *can get up front for X number of races a year*.


He's a businessman to the core. He may like F1, but he's NOT in it to help it out.

You could have a race every month in the U.S., if you promoted properly - like NASCAR. That's all it comes down to - promotion.

Every race *I* went to at Indy had a ton of people; for a sport that has effectively ZERO promotion in the states, that's a pretty impressive crowd of people.

Meanwhile, the import tuner crowd, the XBox gaming crowd, the computer geek crowd - all people ripe for being fans of F1 - are ignored. People in the states have no awareness of F1 *at all*: most people at this point associate "car racing" with NASCAR. That's all.

That non-NASCAR potential fan base is enormous. Bernie is too ripe of age to consider the business potential of growing that audience; and of one day superceding NASCAR, and what that would mean profit wise.

He's narrow focused on now. I don't see that changing. I hope we have another GP in the states, but the biggest shame is FOM ignoring the missed *potential* in the states. Dumb.

/ It's a shame there are no proper F1 demonstrations in the U.S. like in other countries. It would be interesting to see what lap times an F1 car would casually set on the classic ovals in the states; and it would be great publicity. Oh well.


#259 john ruston

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 06:12

Since when has there been no drinking booze in Bahrain or Abu Dhabi come to that?
Spa has lots of restaurants at Malmedy,Stavelot,Francorchamps as well as Spa and is within 150 KLm of major population centres.
Easy to make glib points which are not factual but that is not unusual on this forum!

Why not US GP in Florida in early or late part of year when there is space in calender?

Non European events at each end of European season.

It's only a matter of time before the Gulf States want to give up GP when the two State petrol heads grow tied of their project.How many locals go?
You can have rooms at Abu Dhabi circuit hotels for next to nothing most of year.

If US wants a GP it will have one but do they want one.It is a country that likes parochial sports where Americans win American trophies.Look at single seater US Formula's.It was not only the George family that screwed up but influx of many South American drivers.Not been an important US driver involved in single seaters since Smoke other than Andretti family.

Teams want to save money.Transport would be a good way to start.



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#260 ViMaMo

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 06:24

Indy had spectators but not fantastic numbers though.

Anyways I would rather see them race on a great track with 5000 spectators in grand stands than a bland track with lot of spectators.

#261 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 06:33

It's only a matter of time before the Gulf States want to give up GP when the two State petrol heads grow tied of their project.

Actually, countries like Bahrain are using their Grand Prix as a platform to market the country to the world. Without the Grand Prix, they're virtually invisible to he world. They're not going to give that up any time soon.

Why not US GP in Florida in early or late part of year when there is space in calender?

Um, because it's insanely expensive to fly everything across the Atlantic and back. If the United States Grand Prix happens, it's going to be paired with the Canadian race - probably one week apart - to keep costs down.

#262 wj_gibson

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 06:43

Since when has there been no drinking booze in Bahrain or Abu Dhabi come to that?


I'd forgotten that there was a race in Abu Dhabi until I read that. Shows how much impact last year's race had on me.

#263 john ruston

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 07:52

The races in Bahrain /Abu Dhabi to probably be followed by Qatar are solely about the ruling family being petrol heads.The advertising of the country is a secondary thing or Dubai would have had ones years ago.They are flat racing people and that's why they have the Racing championship there with World Cup as its pinnacle.Same with Road to Dubai for golf.
This advertising the country is a myth when doing other things would bring so much more recognition at a smaller cost.
Best of luck to them and lets hope the ex pats who run the places continue to do a good job for their bosses as there have been a few PR slip ups but this could be due to not understanding how the places work.

#264 Gyan

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 08:06

It needs some work, but ask and you shall receive:

http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3753848



Here's mine, a bit long at 8 miles but it's on the beach and on the only decently curvy streets in the city-
http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3753892


Here would be mine.I've even included Miami Heat. :p

http://www.gmap-pedo...com/?r=3754595

#265 Cr0aker

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 08:32

Since when has there been no drinking booze in Bahrain or Abu Dhabi come to that?
Spa has lots of restaurants at Malmedy,Stavelot,Francorchamps as well as Spa and is within 150 KLm of major population centres.
Easy to make glib points which are not factual but that is not unusual on this forum!

Why not US GP in Florida in early or late part of year when there is space in calender?

Non European events at each end of European season.

It's only a matter of time before the Gulf States want to give up GP when the two State petrol heads grow tied of their project.How many locals go?
You can have rooms at Abu Dhabi circuit hotels for next to nothing most of year.

If US wants a GP it will have one but do they want one.It is a country that likes parochial sports where Americans win American trophies.Look at single seater US Formula's.It was not only the George family that screwed up but influx of many South American drivers.Not been an important US driver involved in single seaters since Smoke other than Andretti family.

Teams want to save money.Transport would be a good way to start.


Maybe drinking is aloud at those venues (except for the podium I guess since they have apple juice) It is typically frowned upon in their society, but if you have been there and say you drank, I stand corrected. Be that as it may, it is still in the desert with little action and limited attendance. The only reason it is there is because they pay Bernie and Co. a hell of a lot of money.

My point was that a race at a track in Utah could be just as good as the best race in Europe if the track was good enough. I have been to Spa for the last three seasons, and while you are correct that there are many villages within a 50Km distance, the night life in Francorchamps dries up at about 11PM after that, the camp sites are the place to be. Not a glib point that, but a fact. A race anywhere in the states could be just as good.

I do not think we are alone in wanting to see our countrymen win trophies. Spain did not give much of a damn about F1 until Alonso started winning, same with Poland with Kubica and Germany with Schumacher. I dare say that if Hamilton and Button do not produce another title in a few years England’s interest will wane as well. The popularity of the sport rises and falls within a country based on the caliber of driver(s) representing it. The United States has no one in F1 at all let alone a championship contender so why should we, as a whole, give a shit? We have no stake in the sport at all. So aside from those of us that simply like it for what it is, no matter who wins each race, no one in the U.S. cares.

To put it plainly, if F1 wants to increase revenue from the United States, they need to make the sport relevant to the customers they are seeking. People seem to think we in the U.S. should be like, “please F1, come back to America and hold a race here.” When in fact F1 should be saying, “What can we do to facilitate putting the USGP back on the calendar and get more people in your country interested in F1?”

Teams such as Ferrari and Red Bull should be scouring the U.S. looking for drivers to support in an effort to get them into an F1 car. They need to be looking for the next Andretti. I’m betting he is out there somewhere. An American Champion will bring more fans and money to F1 and that is about it.



#266 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 08:43

I'm still at a loss to explai why peole think America should get a better - or at least different - deal to everyone else. Think what you will of Bernie's method of business, it's clearly working since he's expanded the calendar out to twenty races for 2011. But for some reason, people seem to think he should change what he knows to work for America simply because it's America, and I'm having a hard time understanding - much less justifying - that approach.

#267 SeanValen

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 08:59

Has anyone seen the PGR4 tracks on Xbox 360 for Las Vegas. Great possible layouts.

Las Vegas night race would be a drivers circuit street track, overtaking possible, lots of money and booze, great hotels, lasers in the sky, perfect combination.


Edited by SeanValen, 25 May 2010 - 09:01.


#268 Xpat

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 09:38

I'm still at a loss to explai why peole think America should get a better - or at least different - deal to everyone else. Think what you will of Bernie's method of business, it's clearly working since he's expanded the calendar out to twenty races for 2011. But for some reason, people seem to think he should change what he knows to work for America simply because it's America, and I'm having a hard time understanding - much less justifying - that approach.


I think we understand that you don't understand.

I don't understand why you seem to think the deal Silverstone has is the same as the deal China has is the same deal that Brazil has. I'd be willing to bet there are no 2 deals that are the same. Do you think Bernie downloaded a boilerplate contract from the internets and just mails them to race promoters?

We are saying that the deals he makes with other venues aren't attractive to people(race promoters, track owners, local governments) in the US. If a deal is "worth it" or not depends on what a person thinks "worth it" means. In Bahrain it might mean putting them on the map with a recognized world class event. In the UK it might be about the history and tradition. In the US it will focus more on the bottom line. If the race doesn't make money it will not continue.

Bernie had been very successful and there isn't really any reason for him to change. It is not "worth it" for an American promoter/venue to lose money hosting an F1 race.



#269 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 09:52

I'm not talking about the specifics of the deal. I mean the one basic thing that all of the arrangements have in common: namely, that the circuits run at a loss. No, it's not the best way of mking things happen, but it's obviously working since so many circuits are a part of the calendar. Yet for some reason, American fans seem to think that America deserves a completely different arrangement in order to host a race in order to "make it work", despite the fact that it worked just fine in Indianapolis for seven years (or however long it was). If that's not attractice to race promoters, then so be it. It's their loss - Formula 1 has long since proved that it doesn't need the United States.

Edited by Captain Tightpants, 25 May 2010 - 09:53.


#270 Xpat

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 13:32

I'm not talking about the specifics of the deal. I mean the one basic thing that all of the arrangements have in common: namely, that the circuits run at a loss. No, it's not the best way of mking things happen, but it's obviously working since so many circuits are a part of the calendar. Yet for some reason, American fans seem to think that America deserves a completely different arrangement in order to host a race in order to "make it work", despite the fact that it worked just fine in Indianapolis for seven years (or however long it was). If that's not attractice to race promoters, then so be it. It's their loss - Formula 1 has long since proved that it doesn't need the United States.


It certainly isn't part of any arrangement that the races must lose money. I imagine most do and that is the problem.

I would love a race in the US because I am an F1 fan BUT no race track in the US is going to host a race and lose money just for the "privilege" of hosting an F1 race. You want to know why? Because it isn't a privilege anyone here cares about.

You really think it worked in Indianapolis? It didn't. That is why IMS and Bernie didn't come to an agreement to continue the event.

If Bernie and a promoter/venue could come to an agreement that allowed a bit more autonomy he could make a boatload of money. I think Bernie misunderstands (or maybe he doesn't care) the American market.

#271 mkay

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 13:52

I'm not talking about the specifics of the deal. I mean the one basic thing that all of the arrangements have in common: namely, that the circuits run at a loss. No, it's not the best way of mking things happen, but it's obviously working since so many circuits are a part of the calendar. Yet for some reason, American fans seem to think that America deserves a completely different arrangement in order to host a race in order to "make it work", despite the fact that it worked just fine in Indianapolis for seven years (or however long it was). If that's not attractice to race promoters, then so be it. It's their loss - Formula 1 has long since proved that it doesn't need the United States.


You should get your facts straight.

The majority of venues are operated at a loss because the Local Governments are heavily backing it. Same thing in Canada. No private investor wanted to touch the Canadian GP, not even with a 10-foot pole, so that's why the Canadian/Quebec Gov't had to chip in their money, my money (as a taxpayer).

In the USA, you can pretty much forget about this, so a GP will have to be profitable. I know some European GPs are not bankrolled by Gov't, but Europe is different. F1 was born in Europe and mostly operates in Europe so that pretty much seals the deal for them (passion, origin, most of the sponsors, manufacturers, etc. are European), whereas F1 is still pretty much 'foreign' for the average American.

#272 mkay

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 13:54

Indy had spectators but not fantastic numbers though.

Anyways I would rather see them race on a great track with 5000 spectators in grand stands than a bland track with lot of spectators.


Indy had the best attendance figures or was easily among the top 5 (post 2005 I suppose).

#273 Xpat

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 14:20

The race day crowd estimate for the first USGP at Indianapolis is 225,000.

One unfortunate problem with the race in Indianapolis was that a race crowd of 100,000 at IMS ends up looking like the place is empty. After the first two years the crowds settled in to about the 100,000 range which made some of the highest attendance events on the F1 calendar but IMS looked empty. The local press, who was angry at Bernie for not allowing them access they were used to, started reporting the crowds were disappointing, attendance was down ect.. I think this was one of Bernie's complaints about the promotion of the event, the local press was definitely not playing from Bernie's song sheet. It is one of the ways he doesn't understand the US market.

#274 Lazarus II

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 14:30

The only way F1 could possibly "take off" in the US is with a "perfect storm"; Ferrari build a car and sell it to a reputable US team to run. IMO I don't think a McLaren would garner the attention needed. And, again IMO, even then F1 would be a passing fad that would be followed for a year or two maybe; it could possibly add to the feverent US F1 fanbase - hopefully more than are lost every year.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/83865

Edited by Lazarus II, 25 May 2010 - 14:33.


#275 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 15:00

And in hindsight, don't think anyone would go for a 2 mile long straight a few feet from the water ending in a 90 degree sharp turn onto a bridge.

Posted Image

#276 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 15:24

Indy had spectators but not fantastic numbers though.


Not by Indy 500 numbers, but by F1 numbers averaging 100,000+ is quite good.


#277 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 15:27

I'm still at a loss to explai why peole think America should get a better - or at least different - deal to everyone else.


Because of the size of the potential market the advertising would address.

F1 to be made popular in the U.S. would be worth $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to both the manufacturers and the sponsors.



#278 peroa

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:19

What's in Austin, Texas?

Steve Austin?


NobleF1
The United States GP is back on the calendar from 2012 with a race in Austin, Texas. Story coming soon


Austin, Texas, seriously?

Edited by peroa, 25 May 2010 - 17:20.


#279 Greem

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:27

Seriously:

Here's the link
.

Count to ten and hope that Herr Tilke is kept away from the layout!

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#280 Don_Humpador

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:27

Texas? :lol: :lol: :lol:

#281 progrocks

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:27

The story is already up at formula1.com

Austin is a great city and they are building a track, which puts this at "I will believe it when i see it"

#282 peroa

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:31

The story is already up at formula1.com

Austin is a great city and they are building a track, which puts this at "I will believe it when i see it"


I believe you but, IMHO, there are tonnes of more attractive places in the USofA to host a race.


#283 hotstickyslick

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:36

Purpose built? Hmm...

I don't know. :well:

#284 KateLM

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:40

The story is already up at formula1.com

Austin is a great city and they are building a track, which puts this at "I will believe it when i see it"


After the Donington fiasco, this is my reaction too. I would love for it to happen but a lot can happen financially in two years...


50 euros says it will be designed by someone whose name rhymes with Termann Hilke.

#285 JPW

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:42

The story is already up at formula1.com

Austin is a great city and they are building a track, which puts this at "I will believe it when i see it"

What a surprise, hope they succeed Austin is a nice place that I'd go to for a GP :up:

Any more detailed info on Full Throttle Productions, they did some NASCAR and other events earlier I gather?

#286 Scotracer

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:46

No Watkins Glen or Road America then? :(



#287 Don_Humpador

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:47

No Watkins Glen or Road America then? :(


In your dreams! :rotfl:

Instead we get another Tilkedrome (or as KateLM might put it : a Hilkedrome).

#288 Lazarus II

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:48

Austin, as a city, is alright; although my wife being a born and bred Sooner would say otherwise.

It can get damn hot though....damn HOT.

#289 gwk

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:48

There's some good ideas contained in this thread. However, FOM is seeking a location in and around NYC. They want that demographic. As to why, I can only speculate along with the rest of you.

I have a potential motorsports venture that's in an excellent location with plenty of land to place any sort of course(s) one might like to construct, an entitlement process that is essentially unencumbered, fantastic weather 9 months of the year, along with local and state political support, all, within 2.5 hours drive of 20+ million, F1 savvy and car-crazy people. I have approached FOM and they still want the NYC market. I remain in touch with them, as they're the only entity that can make this venture work.

"You can lead a horse to water... "

:well:


Who knew rdrcr was prescient....

#290 One

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 17:58

It will be on the water front.

#291 BrokenBaculum

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 18:13

Well this is great news - finally a confirmed US GP! I know I shouldn't get too excited, but it's great for the city, the state, the teams, the sponsor and of course the fans.

Also, here's my attempt at the Miami Street Circuit that was requested for on the previous page:

Posted Image

It incorporates the former TransAm/ALMS purpose-built circuit section, and some of the wider neighbouring roads and streets. The yellow line is the pitlane, and the circuit is clockwise.

#292 rdrcr

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 18:19

An excellent choice. It's not my site, but an excellent choice nonetheless. If anyone has been to Austin, they know it, too, has many of the great elements required to host a first-class F1 race, i.e. an international airport, beautiful locale and topography, (it's not at all like the rest of Texas - the Texas Hill County is more like someplace in France with all the yellow limestone and lush landscape). Its city center is both modern and classic - containing some of the best live music in the county and without a doubt, has the some of the best BBQ on the planet. About the only drawbacks I am aware of are the wicked humidity in the summer, the really foul weather that can crop up without much notice and their highways and byways are poorly laid out and not well marked, though that specific problem is one can be fixed in time.

I wish all parties the best in their efforts. If the plan comes to fruition, I would highly recommend going.

Edited by rdrcr, 25 May 2010 - 18:54.


#293 Xpat

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 19:42

I have my fingers crossed.

If the schedule stays close to the current the race would be in June. It could get hot, real damn hot.

F1 better not pull a 2005 USGP. I hope Bernie has heard the phrase, 'Don't mess with Texas'. They DO mean it.



#294 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
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Posted 25 May 2010 - 20:34

No longer an 'attempt'

Thread closed

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