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#4951 jimm

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 14:50

You are right if this is only Michael decision. But, if this is team decision this mean they just test things? With Michael. In Germany Nico jump Michael with team approval. Because they pit Michael early he lost chance to jump Kubica, because going in the pit early wasn't right decision there. After Kubica came infront of him, he lost time behind him. Then they plan Nico to jump them both, but he couldn't and he landed before Michael only. For 10 laps he just managed to do around 1 sec to Michael, in this 10 laps they both got stuck behind other cars or doing fast laps. In the same 10 laps Button take 4 sec to the Lewis. In Hungary other cars managed to keep their tyres, Michael or his car can't do that. Maybe was from the heat(EBD) to the back tyres or just because he/car eat tyres. I hope in Spa they will come with sorted car, and we will see some strange strategy again. In Germany plan was not to pit early(according to Michael), maybe because he pass Nico at the start they changed the plan, but again Michael was at the losing end. Maybe they used Michael like bait for Kubica? To make him pit early.



None of this really has any inpact on setting a car up specifically for the race ignoring qualifying at a track where you rarely loose a position after the start unless it is in the pits. Certainly not a strategy designed for success.

As far as MS and tire management...this has really never the strongest part of his game...even before the tires he is using this year. Maybe they are writing off this season for him. For his sake it would be better if that were true.

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#4952 Lifew12

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 16:31

:
I do not understand you? He is in the learning process .....



Michael Schumacher is in 'the learning process'? After 12 races, and 15 years of top level F1 racing before, and you're happy to proclaim he's 'learning'? Let's get something straight here and it's something that, quite frankly, should be obvious: Mercedes didn't hire him so he could 'learn', they hired him so he could win. They hired him because he's a seven times world champion and 91 race winner, they hired him because they expected him - quite frankly - to piss all over Rosberg and justify the salary they are paying him. They didn't hire him as part of a mystical 'three year plan'but to win now, here, this weekend. That much should be blatantly obvious to anyone. Yet, after twelve race weekends and as much testing as anyone else has had - no more, no less - you think this veteran of F1, this man who many reckon to be - with good reason - is one of the greatest drivers of all time and the greatest of the modern era, is still 'learning'? For heavens sake, if it takes him 12, and maybe more, weekends to 'learn' what the bloody hell was the point in hiring him? With respect, you're talking nonsense; anyone with half a head would readily conclude that, by now, Michael has 'learned' all he needs to beat Nico Rosberg in the same car. If he hasn't, you have to - logically - question what he's doing there.


#4953 Kovalonso

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 16:49

The culprit is Ross Brawn.

He should have hired Danica instead of Rosberg.
If the 2nd driver was 0.3 sec slower than MS, then they could blame the car 100% for his misery.
After Jenson 'Cinderella' Button's WDC, the team came back to be a Honda pumpkin.

But Nico can't understand his hole in the Universe...

#4954 Birelman

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 17:13

You are right if this is only Michael decision. But, if this is team decision this mean they just test things? With Michael. In Germany Nico jump Michael with team approval. Because they pit Michael early he lost chance to jump Kubica, because going in the pit early wasn't right decision there. After Kubica came infront of him, he lost time behind him. Then they plan Nico to jump them both, but he couldn't and he landed before Michael only. For 10 laps he just managed to do around 1 sec to Michael, in this 10 laps they both got stuck behind other cars or doing fast laps. In the same 10 laps Button take 4 sec to the Lewis. In Hungary other cars managed to keep their tyres, Michael or his car can't do that. Maybe was from the heat(EBD) to the back tyres or just because he/car eat tyres. I hope in Spa they will come with sorted car, and we will see some strange strategy again. In Germany plan was not to pit early(according to Michael), maybe because he pass Nico at the start they changed the plan, but again Michael was at the losing end. Maybe they used Michael like bait for Kubica? To make him pit early.

Oh, I think I know this one, this is the one where Cinderella dresses up like a princess and goes to the party? :rotfl:

#4955 SeanValen

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 17:53

Everyone's on the same playing field now; Michael's done as much testing as anyone, and as many races.




I think most of the field has done more races and testing then Michael in the last 3 years, that's the main point I think. Arriving to a new team that doesn't understand why it's tyres are not always working isn't the best season to return too, his reputaiton as most successful and hype and all that doesn't change the nature of the challenges he's had, you can't compare his return and absense with any other current driver on the field.

Have some patience, not all the answers anyone is looking for is going to come from 2010. I remember alot of people wanting Jean Todt off the ferrari team back in 1996 when things were not going well, Schumacher stuck up for Todt saying he was one of the teams stengths. When your singling out one man and not every other factor going against that man in one year, it can be premature to have final verdicits. Everything has their timings, the truth is Michael, Brawn and Mecedes know more about their potential and issues then you, me and anyone here, the best we can do to find out how it turns out is to wait and watch it unfold and don't call judgement until everyone has played their cards in this 3 year project on paper. :smoking: :smoking: :up:

#4956 schuey100

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 18:03

Michael Schumacher is in 'the learning process'? After 12 races, and 15 years of top level F1 racing before, and you're happy to proclaim he's 'learning'? Let's get something straight here and it's something that, quite frankly, should be obvious: Mercedes didn't hire him so he could 'learn', they hired him so he could win. They hired him because he's a seven times world champion and 91 race winner, they hired him because they expected him - quite frankly - to piss all over Rosberg and justify the salary they are paying him. They didn't hire him as part of a mystical 'three year plan'but to win now, here, this weekend. That much should be blatantly obvious to anyone. Yet, after twelve race weekends and as much testing as anyone else has had - no more, no less - you think this veteran of F1, this man who many reckon to be - with good reason - is one of the greatest drivers of all time and the greatest of the modern era, is still 'learning'? For heavens sake, if it takes him 12, and maybe more, weekends to 'learn' what the bloody hell was the point in hiring him? With respect, you're talking nonsense; anyone with half a head would readily conclude that, by now, Michael has 'learned' all he needs to beat Nico Rosberg in the same car. If he hasn't, you have to - logically - question what he's doing there.


Wow that's a very aggressive tone! Maybe I'm misreading it but you sound like one angry puppy, like someone that reads the Daily Mail or sees a cat and puts it into a bin.

But getting back on topic, I think Schumacher was hired for a number of reasons, one of which was to win the WDC during his contract period, the other, possibly stronger reason, was for the marketing opportunity. In any case, I doubt they care all that much about his salary, I have a feeling he more than covers it in the sponsors Mercedes can attract, the increase in car sales etc etc etc.

Is Michael the greatest ever? Maybe, maybe not. Is he now rubbish? Maybe, maybe not. There could be a multitude of reasons that he's struggling, the tyre issues seem to be mentioned by both him and Mercedes so maybe we ought to give that some credence. One thing we do know, if he was costing Mercedes the chance of a WDC or putting them in the red due to some horrid excessive salary or even if he was having a negative impact on the brand then he would be out on his ear. This is big business and Mercedes is ruthless enough to get rid if they think it improves the team.

So for now I'll take their inaction as evidence that Schumacher is still adding something to the team.

#4957 ivand911

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 18:05

Oh, I think I know this one, this is the one where Cinderella dresses up like a princess and goes to the party? :rotfl:

And this post was helpful because, you know fairy-tales? Or you just got in wrong forum.


#4958 Muz Bee

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 22:01

I think most of the field has done more races and testing then Michael in the last 3 years, that's the main point I think. Arriving to a new team that doesn't understand why it's tyres are not always working isn't the best season to return too, his reputaiton as most successful and hype and all that doesn't change the nature of the challenges he's had, you can't compare his return and absense with any other current driver on the field.

Have some patience, not all the answers anyone is looking for is going to come from 2010. I remember alot of people wanting Jean Todt off the ferrari team back in 1996 when things were not going well, Schumacher stuck up for Todt saying he was one of the teams stengths. When your singling out one man and not every other factor going against that man in one year, it can be premature to have final verdicits. Everything has their timings, the truth is Michael, Brawn and Mecedes know more about their potential and issues then you, me and anyone here, the best we can do to find out how it turns out is to wait and watch it unfold and don't call judgement until everyone has played their cards in this 3 year project on paper. :smoking: :smoking: :up:

New regs this year - no refueling - means everyone is on the same page. Nice try though.

#4959 SeanValen

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 02:35

New regs this year - no refueling - means everyone is on the same page. Nice try though.



No other driver been away from f1 for 3 years on current grid. One driver is not on the same page in this case. Nice try though.


Webber was on the same page as others in the past, he only writ some pages worth noting in his career in 2010, and he's been in f1 for what since 2001. :wave:

What you don't know now you may know in the future and that's worth leaving a door open for. Jenson Button and Webber have done nothing worth writing home about for most of their f1 careers, but one has a title and the other is going for one this year, that alone if you menstioned to forumers a few years ago, we both would be laughed at, those guys are good f1 pilots, both have been written off publically and by fans over the years, but certain cars/teams/certain seasons can brainwash the public. So Hamilton now is doing clearly better then Button, but because their friends/englsh/decent teamate pairing/community unity of british mclaren solitute :) it somehow lets Button off the hook, but hold on a minute, he is the current champion, but they know deep down Hamilton is better. The situation with Button is, we know why he's gotten beaten by Schumacher over the years in race of champions, we know the MS of Spain 2010 beat Button in his best showing this year. Button has only hit it gold for one season in his f1 career, yet he hasn't retired for 3 years and is back in a team with Hamlton, the only excuse Button could use, it's a new team for him, if that's the case, MS has 3 years away plus new team, surely MS is more on fragile ground this year then Button.. Schumacher on the otherhand has hit it gold with titles 7 times and challenges for more, I think Michael is allowed to get it totally wrong especially after a retirement, what he is doing is more unique situation then other drivers on the grid, Button on the otherhand shows a journeyman accepting the 1 title he has and knows now he won't get the better of guys like Hamilton and Alonso, Button actually made way for ALonso at Renault, and now Hamilton's beating Button, maybe Briatore was right about Button, he's miss, miss, miss, jackpott, back to miss, miss etc Schumacher jackpot takes 7 plus bonus challenges for the titels jackpot,

Schumacher main player for title challenges-94/95/97/98/2000/2001/2002/2003/2004/2006 9 title challenging seasons where he came close or won titles as a main player for title fights, from 94, only 96/99/2005/2010 hasn't worked out-99 we can understand because of his broken leg-96 we can understand as he gave up a title to kickstart a broken ferrari team-which leaves 2005/2010 as the only real disappointing seasons, 1 season which was 2005 is a result of rule change over rule change to finally trip his successful team up-tyres, just no matter what he did, they never got on top of the situation, now 2010-1st season back from retirement-team has issues with tyres/combine this with his return to f1 without testing era, you could say he still has the best title challenging stat of all drivers, that he will be in the hunt, both 2005/2010 team didn't understand tyres, Schumacher falled/now he's a retirement man returning to his state, so I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt, and see how his 3 year project turns out, becase given his strike rate for title challenges, he's more then likely to figure in.

F1 is too complicated to appreciate the inners workings of mercedes/brawn and MS and the work they have to do to improve. I don't know what's going on, no one does except them and their moviated to improve and make sure this season doesn't happen again, I admire the effort and confidence of what awaits. It's work in progress, nothing to conclude on yet, 2 early, some are just not with the long term thinking approach. But you have too, some problems in one season just don't go away but they can end dying this year when the season finishes and give him cleanslate for 2011, the problems MS has had in 2010 he's working with the team to ensure it's ironed out in 2011, this year even with bad results, he's gotta make the best of the situation, there is no testing, but the testing is the gps, and I think with the team he knows opportunities are there to work out what to avoid/try in 2011, even with his grid penality at Spa, you know he's a computer brain who gives feedback his teams have always found productive.

Edited by SeanValen, 25 August 2010 - 03:08.


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#4960 jimm

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 03:51

Lewis is overall better than Button but Button had done well this year. That said, in the current form, I would take Button over MS this year. His speed has been better than expected compared to Lewis and he makes better calls reading the race than MS does.

Webber has raised his game this year and his pace compared to Vettel confirms this...he would be hard for MS to live with in the same car.


As far as your comments about MS, it does not matter what you did 6 years ago (yes it has been 6 years since he won a WDC) it matters what you can do now. Does it take away respect for WHAT he accomplished? no It impacts what he CAN DO right now...which is not match a driver who has never won a race....In fact while you say Button is just a journyman, he has in fact won races for 3 different teams, as of yet, Rosberg has not shown he can win at this level.

Put it this way, I respect what Lauda did coming back from his accident and his comback (which BTW was much more succesful than MS's)...but regardless, I would not put him an a race car.

MS not to that level but you can't take his past record as the reason for him to keep racing now. Next season, he either improves or should consider something else to do.

Edited by jimm, 25 August 2010 - 03:53.


#4961 aditya-now

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 04:46

What puts the brakes on Schumi's comeback?

http://www.auto-moto...ck-2721656.html

The most reputable German motor racing magazine auto motor und sport starts to detect a shift in the German perception of Michael Schumacher.

"Schumacher, that was yesterday. Today is Vettel" - Bild

"I can even detect some regression with Michael " - Gerhard Berger, who before the season believed Michael could do everything up to an 8th WDC title.

Indeed, the curves are pointing downwards.

Today, Schumacher is not the undisputed number one within his team anymore.....

The old regs were in favour of Michael, when tank stops meant that the race was broken up in several increments. Nowadays Michael has to carry the car across the finish line.....

Today's opponents have a different quality. They are like Michael, just 15 years younger....

The working craze of Schumacher is not rewarded anymore. The learning process now happens within one weekend.... Michael misses testing....

Then there are the electronic helps. Michael used them more than others ("understood earlier than others how helpful they are"). But they don't exist anymore or have been severly restricted....

And then there is the tyres: Michael is not used to having the same tyres like everyone else ("kennt keine Reifen von der Stange")...
Nico can circle the car around the track in a more sensitive way.

Christian Danner:"Michael tries with force when the grip is not there"

Franz Tost:"Today Michael starts to think while driving. Previously he did it instinctively"

Rubens Barrichello:"Michael's driving style is poison for the tyres. He wins his time from turning in till the apex....That kills the rear tyres. Today's tyres stop working in that way. Previously, Bridgestone build a tailor-made tyre for Michael, that works with his driving style."

What Michael now needs, is not fine-tuning. He needs a radical change. But if he can do it is doubtable - it is more difficult with 41 than with 22....
With Pirelli a new age starts, but it is doubtful, if it will be a better age for Michael. Like Bridgestone, Pirelli will build a tyre to be on the safe side.


That doesn't sound good for Michael, as AMuS is the motorsport bible of Germany (like Autosport in GB).

So far they were holding back, but now it is a consumate analysis. They throw light on everything we have discussed in this thread. Not good. I even spared you some of the painful parts.

"Is the time of Schumi already over?"

#4962 slaveceru

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 05:35

Michael Schumacher is in 'the learning process'? After 12 races, and 15 years of top level F1 racing before, and you're happy to proclaim he's 'learning'? Let's get something straight here and it's something that, quite frankly, should be obvious: Mercedes didn't hire him so he could 'learn', they hired him so he could win. They hired him because he's a seven times world champion and 91 race winner, they hired him because they expected him - quite frankly - to piss all over Rosberg and justify the salary they are paying him. They didn't hire him as part of a mystical 'three year plan'but to win now, here, this weekend. That much should be blatantly obvious to anyone. Yet, after twelve race weekends and as much testing as anyone else has had - no more, no less - you think this veteran of F1, this man who many reckon to be - with good reason - is one of the greatest drivers of all time and the greatest of the modern era, is still 'learning'? For heavens sake, if it takes him 12, and maybe more, weekends to 'learn' what the bloody hell was the point in hiring him? With respect, you're talking nonsense; anyone with half a head would readily conclude that, by now, Michael has 'learned' all he needs to beat Nico Rosberg in the same car. If he hasn't, you have to - logically - question what he's doing there.

So you know everything about Mercedes, Schumacher and everything else so why are we even discussing about Schumacher if you know everything. First of all we are in times that a person has to learn all the time and this process prolongs with aging. In every area when you are missing for a long time it is hard to come back and this is true also in racing. There is no measuring tool to measure how long it will take the individual to come back if he even can. Every word that you have written is just speculation so it is hard to have discussion with you. You are trying to hard to force your opinion to me. No GP or WDC wins can help you in the learning, so why are you mixing those two things. He has to learn how to drive this cars, he has to learn everything about new tires, new type of training (simulators). Generally experience can help him in some delicate racing situations in the races. Here is the basic definition of learning to learn is to acquire knowledge or skill. Learning also may involve a change in attitude or behavior. In other words he has to acquire new skills or knowledge and this is hard if you are experienced because you think that you know something and than you figure out that you do not. So once again why are you mixing experience with learning?

#4963 slaveceru

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 05:46

New regs this year - no refueling - means everyone is on the same page. Nice try though.

Yes what about double diffuser, what about all the things that have changed on the car from 2006 onwards what about testing which is done in simulator now days and has become important because there is limited testing why are you not considering those things? Why are you just saying things that help you to prove your point and forget everything else? This is not discussion if you do not take in the consideration of all the things that have changed in those three years. So you are provocative and you try to persuade others are you successful or are you seeking people on the forum who have similar opinion about Schumacher as you do?

Edited by slaveceru, 25 August 2010 - 05:56.


#4964 Lifew12

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:13

Every word that you have written is just speculation


Utter nonsense; the man has 15 years of experience driving a wide range of different cars, on different tyres, with different engines, different regulations, and different characteristics. He's won 91 races, and seven world titles. That's not speculation, it's fact, and it's a good reason why citing a 'learning curve' is nonsense. Further, Mercedes hired to him to win, not to learn; that's not speculation either - you hire Vitaly Petrov, Hulkenberg, a newcomer with promise if you want to give them a learnign curve, not a man with 200 plus races behind him. he's now had 12 races, with the same amount of testing as everyone else; that's not speculation, it's fact, again. You may be happy to overlook all this in the search for excuses, but it's simply that - a search for excuses.

Here's something more for you to contemplate, and these are your words:

"He has to learn how to drive this cars, he has to learn everything about new tires, "

He's going to have to do that next year, too; the car will be different, the tyres will be different, the characteristics will be different, he'll have no more testing than anyone else; surely he's going to need another 12 races on his learning curve, at least, again?

Far from trying to 'force my opinion on you' I'm suggesting you look a little closer at what you're saying; the most successful driver in the sport, a man with few peers and who the team boss still reckons is better than everyone else, shouldn't need a learning curve of two thirds of a season or more.


#4965 Lifew12

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:16

Wow that's a very aggressive tone! Maybe I'm misreading it but you sound like one angry puppy,


Far from angry, simply continually fed up with people trying to convince me that one of the most experienced drivers in teh field, and the most successful of all time, is somehow still on a 'learning curve' after 12 races. If that makes sense to you, great, but it shouldn't.


#4966 ivand911

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:42

Far from angry, simply continually fed up with people trying to convince me that one of the most experienced drivers in teh field, and the most successful of all time, is somehow still on a 'learning curve' after 12 races. If that makes sense to you, great, but it shouldn't.

Why you think that you know what should make sense? No body try to convince you of anything, maybe you try to hard to convince other? If you are not convinced it is OK. Don't listen others. They are people with different understanding here , nobody can convince anyone if he don't want to be convinced. I don't think here someone will lose his sleep if you are not convinced. This is just forum, it is for fun, not some very deeply serious stuff. :)


#4967 Fortymark

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:52

What puts the brakes on Schumi's comeback?

http://www.auto-moto...ck-2721656.html



Rubens Barrichello:"Michael's driving style is poison for the tyres. He wins his time from turning in till the apex....That kills the rear tyres. Today's tyres stop working in that way. Previously, Bridgestone build a tailor-made tyre for Michael, that works with his driving style."


Interesting interesting...
Well, I guess it´s no news for us whom already knew this.. haha


#4968 Frans

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:53

Why not all go to Spa and wave Michael a nice goodbye from F1.

Before he damages the sport and he get's a fine for that! :lol:

#4969 F.M.

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:57

Q: So you believe that you are faster than Nico Rosberg?
MS:
I see all the details. True, with how the car behaves at the moment I am not driving at his level. At least not in qualifying. In the race it’s very equal. I know precisely how I can change that fact - and I am working on it.

http://www.formula1....10/8/11154.html

#4970 merschu

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:05

The full article.

In conversation - Ecclestone & Schumacher

Their names are synonymous with Formula One racing. One abandoned his driving career after two Grands Prix, became a successful team boss and then transformed the sport into a global phenomenon. The other rewrote its record books from behind the wheel, accumulating a set of career statistics that may never be surpassed. They are, of course, Formula One Group CEO Bernie Ecclestone and Mercedes GP’s seven-time world champion Michael Schumacher. Their friendship goes back almost 20 years. No surprise then that they always have plenty to talk about…

Q: Bernie and Michael, can you both remember when you first met - and what you thought about the other?
Bernie Ecclestone: If memory serves me well, that must have been some two decades ago in Monza…
Michael Schumacher: … that’s right.
BE: I helped a bit to move him from Jordan to Benetton.

Q: Why? Was it already so obvious to you at that time that he had that ‘je ne sais quoi’?
BE: Yes, of course. That was the reason I wanted him in a competitive team. And indeed he not only developed into a magnificent driver, but also into a sort of team manager. In soccer you would call it a player-coach… (laughs)

Q: Before Michael legions of German drivers had tried their luck in Formula One, with varying degrees of success. Why were you so sure that Michael would make it big?
BE: You could see that immediately if you had a good eye for talent. I think it was already visible at his first race in Spa.
MS: I also believe that talent shows right away…
BE: …anyway, I was sure that there is a winner in the making, even before his first podium in Spa in 1992. That he would win the title seven times is of course something that nobody sane would have ever predicted.

Q: When was it clear for you Michael that you would succeed in Formula One?
MS: To be honest that was in Monza after my second race - my first race for Benetton - when there was that gut feeling that bigger things could be in the wings. Before that I was lacking self-confidence to think beyond the mere fact of just being there. Of course there was no vision of winning a championship, but I had the impression that I could race on a level with the best and fight with them.

Q: So you must have been grateful that Bernie helped you move from Jordan to Benetton?
MS: Of course. He was always there if I needed advice and always offered his support. For sure Bernie was an important factor when I changed team from Jordan to Benetton. It was an important change, probably not in the first year, but definitely as a natural next step to being with the right team. Only then was I able to help increase the interest in Formula One in Germany. So I benefitted from it, as well as Formula One.
BE: Absolutely. He and Lewis Hamilton are still the most prominent drivers in Formula One. Even today.

Q: What did Formula One give you Michael?
MS:
Twenty years full of passion and positive excitement.

Q: What have the two of you learned from each other?
BE:
Michael is a proper guy. That is important for me. If you talk to him you know where you stand. And once again, how fast he upgraded himself from pure driver to ‘team manager’ at Benetton…
MS: …that’s not totally correct. That was rather more the case at Ferrari. (smiles)

Q: And now at Mercedes?
MS:
Well, I have worked together with (team principal) Ross (Brawn) and others in the team for so many years that it is natural that my job is not limited to driving only. I’m surely no engineer nor aerodynamicist, but I have enough experience to know the direction it should head in to be successful. With all these computer programs and all the data flowing from it, it is still men who make the decisions.

Q: Bernie, at what point did you know that Michael would make a comeback?
BE:
I learned it from the newspaper.

Q: You didn’t talk before?
BE:
No.
MS: What for?
BE: The most important factor was that Michael had enough self-confidence to do it and a team that believed in him. The people at Mercedes knew what he stands for and what he is able to achieve and they talked to him in a serious way so that he would listen. If they’d tried to sell him nonsense he surely wouldn’t have listened to them.

Q: Were you surprised by the media hype surrounding your comeback?
MS:
You bet. Already in summer 2009 when there was the talk of me returning to Ferrari for a short period I was surprised - positively surprised.
BE: It was super. Very similar to Tiger Wood’s comeback - even though Tiger had stopped playing for very different reasons. We had a tremendous media presence thanks to Michael. Thanks again for that.

Q: Hand on heart Michael, would you ever have guessed it is possible for one driver to win seven titles in his career?
MS:
No, nobody can be that narcissistic. Even in my wildest dreams I could not imagine winning more than one title, if at all, because as a driver you depend heavily on the competitiveness of your car. We are not tennis players or other lone sportsmen where it is only your own talent that makes or breaks it. But I love it the way it is - that you are part of a team where you have to put performance together like a jigsaw puzzle to be successful, and where everybody needs to be motivated by the others.
BE: How true. Formula One is a team sport and that shows in the outfit of every individual team member - they are all the same. So they should all pull together for the benefit of the whole. That’s why I am against the so-called ‘team order’ ban that is all over the place right now - because we are speaking about internal team decisions. The only collusion that cannot be tolerated in my opinion is one between two teams for the disadvantage of a third party. What’s your opinion Michael?
MS: Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel in Turkey had the smell of team orders, or Nico Rosberg staying out longer in Hockenheim. But is that really team orders? No, it is not. Only things that can be controlled should be regulated.
BE: Absolutely correct.

Q: Bernie, when you heard that Michael was coming back you called it a gift for Formula One. That comeback has been a bit bumpier than expected and there are lots of critics. Was it really a gift for Formula One?
BE:
Yes, because Michael is a hundred percent fit and talented, but he is racing because he wants to win - and at the moment this is not possible, so he has to focus on getting the car right.

Q: What about you Michael? Explain why your comeback was not a mistake…
MS:
Because I enjoy what I’m doing and because I believe in being able to reach my goal - to win the title. I have to accept that it will take time. Of course we all in the team believed that we would be more competitive this season. Unfortunately that’s not the case.
BE: If Michael were driving a Red Bull I would put my money on him…

Q: You too, Michael?
MS:
Let’s put it this way, I would have different options in a Red Bull.

Q: What makes you so optimistic that next year will be better?
MS:
Because we know and understand the problems that are haunting us now.
BE: I have to add something else. When people say that Nico Rosberg is faster than Michael I tell them Nico still has to prove himself. Not so Michael. For Nico fourth places are still important - not for Michael. Only winning is what counts for him. Whether he finishes fourth or 14th doesn’t really matter for him…

Q: Is that true, Michael?
MS:
He’s probably right.

Q: Both of you like a poker game. How important is it to put on a good poker face?
BE:
He doesn’t need it - he’s in the car wearing a helmet! (laughs) But let’s be serious, why should he push to the limit for fourth places?
MS: Wait a minute, I cannot leave that statement unresolved. I always drive at the limit. I do that for myself.

Q: What Bernie obviously means is that you appear much more relaxed than in the past…
MS:
Okay, yes. But that doesn’t mean that I’m not giving everything.
BE: I’m only suggesting that the motivation is different if you fight for a win or for eighth or ninth place.

Q: Are you still surprised about the reactions of the media? Do you pinch yourself sometimes, thinking ‘Oh my god, what have I done?’
MS:
Once again, for me it is important how I work with the car and with the team. The media are just a side effect. They don’t influence the picture that I envision.

Q: So you believe that you are faster than Nico Rosberg?
MS:
I see all the details. True, with how the car behaves at the moment I am not driving at his level. At least not in qualifying. In the race it’s very equal. I know precisely how I can change that fact - and I am working on it.

Q: Jenson Button, your predecessor at Brawn-Mercedes, has said feels a bit guilty as last year he moulded the 2010 car to suit his driving style - and that is completely different to yours. His handling preference is more towards understeer - a characteristic you don’t like. You came to the team too late to change the fundamental characteristics of the car…
MS:
…true, every driver has his own driving style and you have to work with the team so that you feel comfortable with the package. I achieved that with Ferrari. But that doesn’t happen overnight. It is no secret that at the moment our car has characteristics that don’t suit me. Now it is up to us to change that. Then the situation will be different.

Q: Bernie, before Michael drivers were not averse to living the high life off track. But then he came and changed it all. He introduced a kind of Teutonic thoroughness that had only one goal - success. Did you view that development with mixed feelings?
BE:
I can only say this - today all drivers want to be like Michael Schumacher…
MS: I am sure that, for example, Sebastian Vettel observed my career steps very carefully. He never told me, but I think I’m right. I am proud of that. But I wasn’t only successful because I was the fittest guy on the grid. I also worked hard with the team. My success was the summation of many factors.
BE: And let’s not forget that Michael also introduced new dimensions for driver salaries. Team principals don’t really appreciate him for that! (laughs) And coming back to Sebastian Vettel, he is as smart as Michael when it comes to his working mode and he is gifted with exceptional talent. On top of that he’s a damned nice guy. Wasn’t he called ‘Baby Schuey’ in Germany?
MS: He doesn’t like these comparisons. And he’s right. He has outgrown it.

Q: Last question. Is Fernando Alonso your spiritual successor at Ferrari? Some feel he is the Ferrari team principal in disguise…
MS:
I cannot answer that. I have no contact with Alonso.
BE: Fernando has a different character. He will not achieve at Ferrari what Michael did.


http://www.formula1....10/8/11154.html

Edited by merschu, 25 August 2010 - 09:34.


#4971 Kovalonso

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:14

What puts the brakes on Schumi's comeback?

http://www.auto-moto...ck-2721656.html

The most reputable German motor racing magazine auto motor und sport starts to detect a shift in the German perception of Michael Schumacher.

Rubens Barrichello:"Michael's driving style is poison for the tyres. He wins his time from turning in till the apex....That kills the rear tyres. Today's tyres stop working in that way. Previously, Bridgestone build a tailor-made tyre for Michael, that works with his driving style."

Thank you for the article :up:

#4972 ivand911

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:21

"Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel in Turkey had the smell of team orders, or Nico Rosberg staying out longer in Hockenheim. But is that really team orders? No, it is not. Only things that can be controlled should be regulated."
"BE: I have to add something else. When people say that Nico Rosberg is faster than Michael I tell them Nico still has to prove himself. Not so Michael. For Nico fourth places are still important - not for Michael. Only winning is what counts for him. Whether he finishes fourth or 14th doesn’t really matter for him…"

I think I said that before. Thank you for the article from formula1.com.


#4973 as65p

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:27

In a way it's fascinating to see how MS himself genuinely believes it's everything but himself responsible: the car, the tyres and what not. And I guess nobody in his surroundings is going to object, they all gain from his presence, after all.

Not least Bernie whose one and only interest shines through in this statement:

"It was super. Very similar to Tiger Wood’s comeback - even though Tiger had stopped playing for very different reasons. We had a tremendous media presence thanks to Michael. Thanks again for that."

You bet...

#4974 slaveceru

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:34

Utter nonsense; the man has 15 years of experience driving a wide range of different cars, on different tyres, with different engines, different regulations, and different characteristics. He's won 91 races, and seven world titles. That's not speculation, it's fact, and it's a good reason why citing a 'learning curve' is nonsense. Further, Mercedes hired to him to win, not to learn; that's not speculation either - you hire Vitaly Petrov, Hulkenberg, a newcomer with promise if you want to give them a learnign curve, not a man with 200 plus races behind him. he's now had 12 races, with the same amount of testing as everyone else; that's not speculation, it's fact, again. You may be happy to overlook all this in the search for excuses, but it's simply that - a search for excuses.


I do not know if this is an excuse if it is a fact. If someone would have a measuring tool to say yes normally it takes just a few races or a few games to come back from retirement than I would say that Schumacher is delusional about him self but there is no one so you can not compare. I have said it once that he is not like all others rookies he is experienced but experience does not bring the speed. Experience just helps the driver in some situations in races to react better than the rookie would. What about the style of driving tires or the car? He has told several times that he has changed his style completely the cars and tires are completely different so in all of this areas he is very similar to rookies who are competing this year is he not?

Here's something more for you to contemplate, and these are your words:

"He has to learn how to drive this cars, he has to learn everything about new tires,

He's going to have to do that next year, too; the car will be different, the tyres will be different, the characteristics will be different, he'll have no more testing than anyone else; surely he's going to need another 12 races on his learning curve, at least, again?

If you are saying that Rosberg is better this year than him then I agree with you, if you are saying that he is on the same level of understanding of the cars and tires as he was prior retirement than it is just your speculation. There are few of you on this forum who have said several times that he is the same driver as he was prior retirement just to say that he was not so great are you one of them? If the answer is yes than you have a tool to measure greatness. He was one of the greatest driver from 1994 - 2006 together with Alonso and Hakinne. It is stupid to say that he was greater than those two drivers in this period but you can say that he was more successful and is the most successful driver in the history of F1 racing and no one can take this from him. Did he deserved all the wins and WDC wins yes he did, was he the most controversial driver in this period yes he was.

Far from trying to 'force my opinion on you' I'm suggesting you look a little closer at what you're saying; the most successful driver in the sport, a man with few peers and who the team boss still reckons is better than everyone else, shouldn't need a learning curve of two thirds of a season or more.

I do not think that boss still recons that Schumacher is better than everyone else. This also is not my opinion, but he deserves the place on the grid.
Is he generally better than Rosberg I honestly do not know? The team has the answer on this question and not us here on this forum.

Once again you are confusing experience with learning. Experience has nothing to do with learning. I know what I am saying to put brief. No one knows how long it will take him to catch the leading guys if he can still achieve this? Do you have a measuring tool to say that few races is enough to relearn everything? Is there another guy who came from retirement or what?
All the drivers would be on equal level if they would stop racing for three years and then began with Schumacher so they are not on equal level and there is probability that they never will be. On the other hand if he can beat them once again he will prove to him self and others that he can do it and that he is not too old. Schumacher said that it will take him a few races to get back to rhythm of racing and to get back the filling of the car. Rhythm and felling does not win GP or WDC all driver have those two things.

Edited by slaveceru, 25 August 2010 - 09:57.


#4975 glorius&victorius

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:58

Q: What did Formula One give you Michael?
MS: Twenty years full of passion and positive excitement.<


typical response of MS that shows his inability to convey his passion for the sport in words... same response one would get if ask him: "why are you the best driver and won 7 WDC?"... he would probably say "I dont know...perhaps hard work"

Stewart, Moss, Senna, Mansell would have given more passionate reply... Senna would probably have given an entire analysis of transformation of his persona etc and realization of etc etc... :)

Edited by glorius&victorius, 25 August 2010 - 10:02.


#4976 Big Block 8

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:09

MS: Of course. He (Bernie Ecclestone) was always there if I needed advice and always offered his support.


It would be interesting to know actually how much Bernie's influence played part in MS's success as a whole. Meaning with this not only his Benetton move, but that kind of thing is bound to have a positive effect practically on everything - team status, penalties, contracts, rules, sponsors, paddock insiders, media etc. etc. No pun intended, but in hindsight MS sure did have all the ducks lined in for success!

Edited by Big Block 8, 25 August 2010 - 10:11.


#4977 ivand911

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:25

It would be interesting to know actually how much Bernie's influence played part in MS's success as a whole. Meaning with this not only his Benetton move, but that kind of thing is bound to have a positive effect practically on everything - team status, penalties, contracts, rules, sponsors, paddock insiders, media etc. etc. No pun intended, but in hindsight MS sure did have all the ducks lined in for success!

Karun also have big help from BE. Expect 7WDC for him soon? BE help a lot of drivers, because he need them. But this is his job really. With Michael penalties he did really poor job.

Edited by ivand911, 25 August 2010 - 10:27.


#4978 dav115

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:59

Interesting interesting...
Well, I guess it´s no news for us whom already knew this.. haha

Yeah, and it explains why he was so shit from '91 until '99 when he switched to Bridgestones...

#4979 as65p

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:06

Yeah, and it explains why he was so shit from '91 until '99 when he switched to Bridgestones...


That's not helping your case. 1 fair title in 8 years on standard tyres against 5 titles on bespoke Bridgestones in 7 years.

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#4980 as65p

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:11

It would be interesting to know actually how much Bernie's influence played part in MS's success as a whole. Meaning with this not only his Benetton move, but that kind of thing is bound to have a positive effect practically on everything - team status, penalties, contracts, rules, sponsors, paddock insiders, media etc. etc. No pun intended, but in hindsight MS sure did have all the ducks lined in for success!


To be fair, I reckon Ecclestone is motivated by commercial success and nothing else. He would surely help MS as long as he serves a means to that goal (which he certainly was in the beginning, as a key to the huge german market and is now again as a "sporting legend" like Tiger Woods or Eddie Jordan), but not for personal or other reasons.

Or IOW if MS would somehow turn out bad for business, BE would drop him in an instant like a hot potatoe.

#4981 Mika Mika

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:13

To be fair, I reckon Ecclestone is motivated by commercial success and nothing else. He would surely help MS as long as he serves a means to that goal (which he certainly was in the beginning, as a key to the huge german market and is now again as a "sporting legend" like Tiger Woods or Eddie Jordan), but not for personal or other reasons.

Or IOW if MS would somehow turn out bad for business, BE would drop him in an instant like a hot potatoe.


100% agree....

#4982 Lifew12

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:18

There are few of you on this forum who have said several times that he is the same driver as he was prior retirement just to say that he was not so great are you one of them?


Am I 'one of them' just wants to say he's 'not so great'? No. Am I on who thinks he is the same driver that he was prior to retirement? No, he's nowhere near as good.

And therein lies the problem; you have also hinted that Rosberg is better than Michael this year, and by all accounts that is a sensible assessment. The question then is this - why is he going to be any better next year?

You ask how long it takes for him to complete his 'learning curve' (which I maintain is ridiculous) so what makes you think it's going to be exactly, precisely one season, and that next year he'll be better than Rosberg? Why should, why would, that be? 12 races and it hasn't happened - 12 races with as much experience with the car and team as Rosberg - so why will it happen next year? That doesn't make sense.

My view is this - if it takes him 12 races - and more - to 'learn' how to drive this car, and these tyres, it's going to take him the same to 'learn' to drive another car, and new tyres; it doesn't matter that everyone will be learning the new tyres, as how long it takes Michael Schumacher doesn't have any bearing on how long it takes AN Other. If you're right, and he needs this 'learnign curve' then surely, he's going to be in the same situation at this point next year?

I find that hard to believe, don't you?

#4983 dav115

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:26

That's not helping your case. 1 fair title in 8 years on standard tyres against 5 titles on bespoke Bridgestones in 7 years.

The only unfair thing that happened in 1994 with Schumacher was his disqualification for two races in order to give Hill a sniff at the title hunt, so don't try pulling that card. You also seem to neglect that between 96 and 98 he was beating fairly drivers whose cars were acknowledged to be several tenths per lap quicker. In fact, I'd put money on the fact that if you were to make a poll asking which year Schumacher was at his peak in, the vast majority of responses would lie within those three years.

#4984 ivand911

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:31

That's not helping your case. 1 fair title in 8 years on standard tyres against 5 titles on bespoke Bridgestones in 7 years.

What was fair? Slow Hill to take 1994 title? :rotfl: They take 20 points from Michael and 2 races not to race. This was really fair.


#4985 as65p

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:43

Keep missing the point, guys. Even 2 out of 8 looks distinctively worse than 5 out of 7, doesn't it? That messy 1994 championship isn't really the issue here, the influence of tailored Bridgestones on MS' success from 2000 onwards is.

#4986 Big Block 8

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:45

To be fair, I reckon Ecclestone is motivated by commercial success and nothing else. He would surely help MS as long as he serves a means to that goal (which he certainly was in the beginning, as a key to the huge german market and is now again as a "sporting legend" like Tiger Woods or Eddie Jordan), but not for personal or other reasons.

Or IOW if MS would somehow turn out bad for business, BE would drop him in an instant like a hot potatoe.


I agree, but regardless of the reason the effect was the same.

#4987 Big Block 8

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:51

You also seem to neglect that between 96 and 98 he was beating fairly drivers whose cars were acknowledged to be several tenths per lap quicker.


True, that was the most popular opinion at the time. The conclusion was based on assumption that Eddie Irvine was the true indicator of the car's speed, the rest was coming from Schumacher's driving skill.

Edited by Big Block 8, 25 August 2010 - 11:53.


#4988 ivand911

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:13

Keep missing the point, guys. Even 2 out of 8 looks distinctively worse than 5 out of 7, doesn't it? That messy 1994 championship isn't really the issue here, the influence of tailored Bridgestones on MS' success from 2000 onwards is.

If there was tailored BS tyre for Michael, I think this was in worst times of tyre war. Not all the time and every time. Even this tyre didn't help him much in 2005. My opinion.


#4989 slaveceru

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:17

That's not helping your case. 1 fair title in 8 years on standard tyres against 5 titles on bespoke Bridgestones in 7 years.

:rotfl:
He has won two WDC titles in this period and both were fair. How can you judge the WDC titles?

#4990 slaveceru

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:57

Am I 'one of them' just wants to say he's 'not so great'? No. Am I on who thinks he is the same driver that he was prior to retirement? No, he's nowhere near as good.

And therein lies the problem; you have also hinted that Rosberg is better than Michael this year, and by all accounts that is a sensible assessment. The question then is this - why is he going to be any better next year?


You ask how long it takes for him to complete his 'learning curve' (which I maintain is ridiculous) so what makes you think it's going to be exactly, precisely one season, and that next year he'll be better than Rosberg? Why should, why would, that be? 12 races and it hasn't happened - 12 races with as much experience with the car and team as Rosberg - so why will it happen next year? That doesn't make sense.

My view is this - if it takes him 12 races - and more - to 'learn' how to drive this car, and these tyres, it's going to take him the same to 'learn' to drive another car, and new tyres; it doesn't matter that everyone will be learning the new tyres, as how long it takes Michael Schumacher doesn't have any bearing on how long it takes AN Other. If you're right, and he needs this 'learnign curve' then surely, he's going to be in the same situation at this point next year?

I find that hard to believe, don't you?


Spot on. I am not saying that he will be better next year in comparison to Rosberg. I am trying to explain you that in now days you are learning about new things all the time and you have to if you want to be successful. The limiting factor of how quick you can learn new things is age and experience can not help you. So once again we have come to age. There is saying that after 40 years of age there is only room to forget the things that you have learned. Here is another one” It is hard to learn old dog new tricks”.
So at the end we have come to the same conclusion.
So do you still believe that it is enough to learn everything that has changed in three years just in a few races? In my type of work I know that if I would take vacation for three years it would take me at least one year to come back to the same level prior vacation and I am not 40 years old.


#4991 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 13:14

That's not helping your case. 1 fair title in 8 years on standard tyres against 5 titles on bespoke Bridgestones in 7 years.


Yeah, the guy only won two WDC's in that time. He's shit. :rolleyes:
Your arguments are impressive. Especially how in a discussion about tires you managed to insert comments about his fairness.

Edited by Diablobb81, 25 August 2010 - 13:16.


#4992 Jazza

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 13:19

The only unfair thing that happened in 1994 with Schumacher was his disqualification for two races in order to give Hill a sniff at the title hunt, so don't try pulling that card. You also seem to neglect that between 96 and 98 he was beating fairly drivers whose cars were acknowledged to be several tenths per lap quicker. In fact, I'd put money on the fact that if you were to make a poll asking which year Schumacher was at his peak in, the vast majority of responses would lie within those three years.


At the time the claim was more like a second per lap quicker. It's only in recent years that it has been revised to a more realistic tenths of a second.

As for beating fairly... How many times was MS genuinely faster then Hill's Williams or Mika's McLaren? In their championship years in raw race pace they were faster almost every race. MS's wins those years normally came when they had a problem. If the 98 McLaren had been reliable mika would have won about a dozen races that year.



#4993 ivand911

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 13:28

At the time the claim was more like a second per lap quicker. It's only in recent years that it has been revised to a more realistic tenths of a second.

As for beating fairly... How many times was MS genuinely faster then Hill's Williams or Mika's McLaren? In their championship years in raw race pace they were faster almost every race. MS's wins those years normally came when they had a problem. If the 98 McLaren had been reliable mika would have won about a dozen races that year.

If Michael didn't broke his leg in 1999, he could take that year title also.

Edited by ivand911, 25 August 2010 - 13:30.


#4994 Jazza

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 13:39

If Michael didn't broke his leg in 1999, he could take that year title also.


He may have, he may not have. That seems to have little to do with him being faster then other drivers in faster cars.



#4995 Anssi

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 13:57

I think what's happening is that unrealistic views on Michael Schumacher are being tuned down to a more realistic level. I believe that every great driver is hyped up to be greater than they actually are. They all have their flaws, like they have their advantages over others. It's healthy that this correction happens.

The records are 'set in stone', what was done was done, and Michael Schumacher can be happy with his records and so can his fans be. It's the same for all the great drivers who won a Championship, or more, in F1. No matter what happens thereafter, they can say they did it. The bullshit stops at the official records.

#4996 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 14:00

That's not helping your case. 1 fair title in 8 years on standard tyres against 5 titles on bespoke Bridgestones in 7 years.


1991 - not a capable car
1992 - ditto
1993 - ditto
1996 - ditto
1997 - took it down to the wire; cheat or no cheat
1998 - took it down to the wire

What's your argument again?

#4997 Lifew12

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 14:11

So at the end we have come to the same conclusion.


I'm not sure we have, but whatever!

So do you still believe that it is enough to learn everything that has changed in three years just in a few races?


'Just a few races'? two thirds of a season? 12 races? What i find curious is that you're willing to dismiss experience so readily; compared to a deriver such as Petwov I would say it should take Michael Schumacher a lot less time to 'learn' the car. He's done it before, many times, over a 15 year (and more) career. That experience doesn't go away.


In my type of work I know that if I would take vacation for three years it would take me at least one year to come back to the same level prior vacation and I am not 40 years old.


I doubt you would come back at the same level as before your vacation indeed, but I'm quite certain that the experience you had of the job prior to leaving would make it much easier for you to get back up to speed. I've done it, and it did.

#4998 arknor

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 16:05

That's not helping your case. 1 fair title in 8 years on standard tyres against 5 titles on bespoke Bridgestones in 7 years.

didnt the other company work with mclaren?

#4999 Fortymark

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 16:31

The only unfair thing that happened in 1994 with Schumacher was his disqualification for two races in order to give Hill a sniff at the title hunt, so don't try pulling that card. You also seem to neglect that between 96 and 98 he was beating fairly drivers whose cars were acknowledged to be several tenths per lap quicker. In fact, I'd put money on the fact that if you were to make a poll asking which year Schumacher was at his peak in, the vast majority of responses would lie within those three years.


That´s your opinion, I have mine.
If you cheat, you should never be allowed to come away with it.
Schumachers behaviour at Silverstone is minor really but they were found with
illegal software and manipulating the fuel rig. That´s two clear cases of cheating.

It´s a myth that Schumacher was having "inferior cars" against the others in 1994-99
The whole theory is based on the neglected #2 driver for gods sake..


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#5000 Fortymark

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 16:32

If Michael didn't broke his leg in 1999, he could take that year title also.



Well, it was his own mistake so he can´t blame anyone else :wave: