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#5101 aditya-now

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 17:03

Technically, he was a contender last year. Ruben's problem is that he lacks the killer instinct. I think talent wise, he is right there. Beyond a certain point it becomes more about mental make up than raw talent. See how Webber reacted to team orders this year. That is how I would expect someone who had the potential to be WDC to act. Can you imagine Prost, Senna, Mansell, Mika, MS (1999 does not count as he was out of contention when he moved over for Irvine), Alonso, Lewis etc to move over when it is obvious they had the best car and they would be contenders for the WDC?

Never would happen. There are probably many little similar concessions that he has made throughout his career that resulted in his current position.

That said, it would not have hurt MS to show some class to another competitor...but then he realy has never done so without it benefiting him in the end. Not that this is abnormal for F1 drivers.


That´s exactly what I wanted to say with the words "Rubens is not a WDC calibre", but he does have excellent other qualities, which is overlooked by many, including Buttoneer.
As you say, the WDC calibre is very clearly a matter of mental and psychological make-up, we know that from sports psychology and from other sports as well.

Yet Rubens overall qualities are certainly there.
Why do you think Rubens is still finding cockpits year after year? The people in the know are aware of these qualities, that´s why Rubens is still on the grid.



Funny coincidence, Rubens qualified 7th at his 300th Grand Prix, exactly where Michael qualified at his first GP - 7th here in Spa in 1991.
Very clearly their fates are intermingled, and Michael was just setting up the stage with his move on Rubens in Hungary. In which Rubens showed the killer instinct you described, finally.

And exactly here, at his 300th GP, at Michael´s "home GP" (as Michael himself calls Spa, as it is the closest to Kerpen), it becomes evident that the way Rubens is leading Williams is showing results that the way Michael is leading Mercedes is not able to show. At the track at which Michael always used to excel - he used to be called the "King of Spa" before Kimi´s advent.

Edited by aditya-now, 28 August 2010 - 17:19.


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#5102 Buttoneer

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 17:04

I don´t think so. I think there is more behind it than you would like to think of.

Only if one were to assume the drivers are the technical brains behind the engineering teams, and that developments the drivers came up with were added to this years car rather than being reserved for next.

#5103 aditya-now

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 17:08

Only if one were to assume the drivers are the technical brains behind the engineering teams, and that developments the drivers came up with were added to this years car rather than being reserved for next.


You know better than that.

Was it not always said, that it is one of Michael´s strongest points to "gel a team", to spur the team spirit, to pull them all together?
Of course the driver is not the technical brain nor the engineering team, but he is in a pivotal position to pull all the strings together.

And at the moment Rubens appears to be doing just that better than Michael does.


#5104 ivand911

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 17:13

legardj : " Rosberg and Schumacher say podium finish for either this season will be a struggle. Mercedes doesn't have the pace currently"
What surprise Reno, Williams are better than former Honda team. Even FI is getting better. For MGP this year is over. I said that they will have problems in Spa and now they are 7th-8th strongest team by result. I said that even Nico will have problem to get in top 10. Then some people laugh at me. But who is laughing now?And somebody is coming here and is using car problems to put blame on the drivers? But, nobody blame before Reno and Williams drivers? MGP will need a lot of experience and new engineers to turn the situation. The truth is Reno and Williams have better engineers than MGP and they are doing better job now. MGP don't have real F-duct , EBD is melting. Yes, Michael is responsible for that, also for designing car with design faults.

Edited by ivand911, 28 August 2010 - 17:38.


#5105 Paco

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 17:54

legardj : " Rosberg and Schumacher say podium finish for either this season will be a struggle. Mercedes doesn't have the pace currently"
What surprise Reno, Williams are better than former Honda team. Even FI is getting better. For MGP this year is over. I said that they will have problems in Spa and now they are 7th-8th strongest team by result. I said that even Nico will have problem to get in top 10. Then some people laugh at me. But who is laughing now?And somebody is coming here and is using car problems to put blame on the drivers? But, nobody blame before Reno and Williams drivers? MGP will need a lot of experience and new engineers to turn the situation. The truth is Reno and Williams have better engineers than MGP and they are doing better job now. MGP don't have real F-duct , EBD is melting. Yes, Michael is responsible for that, also for designing car with design faults.


Reno and Williams.. better engineers? Are you mad?

Simply put. Honda bailed. Brawn managed to get an excellent car out and then ran out of money mid-season so little development and direction was in place until Merc came on board fully. So the 2010 is basically like the early season 2009 modified to 2010 regs (and poorly at that). This is a team that for 2 years was always on the brink with little direction for future seasons.

Renault are experiencing the same thing so don`t expect them to get any better any time soon.

As for Williams. Tonnes of promise but without a works team in place, they`ll probably stay as such unless they pull a Brawn one season. But they could every year be considered a dark horse that could come to light any year.

As for Merc. Good engineers. Solid team now. Direction there now and very little concern for long term prospects of the team folding so they can now concentrate on a fully developed 2011 car and ability to start 2012 plans early! They pretty much abandoned the 2010 dog a long time ago, any changes are purely for reliability and R*D knowledge for the 2011 car.

Everyone just needs to get over the fact that the 2010 car is a dog.

IT`S very clear why it is, it is very clear that it isn`t something can be fixed by bolt on`s so the 2010 season is a write off, due to the issues Brawn faced in 2009.



#5106 aditya-now

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:07

Everyone just needs to get over the fact that the 2010 car is a dog.

IT`S very clear why it is, it is very clear that it isn`t something can be fixed by bolt on`s so the 2010 season is a write off, due to the issues Brawn faced in 2009.


The car is a dog?

Bahrain: Nico 5th, Michael 6th
Australia: Nico 5th, Michael 10th
Malaysia: Nico 3rd, Michael DNF
China: Nico 3rd, Michael 10th

and so on....

Nice dog of a car to have that can bring you to a podium finish, at least if your name is not Michael Schumacher.
It started to go on the wrong tangent the moment they wanted to "improve the car to suit Michael´s driving style" after China.

But that´s not because the car is inherently a dog but because they had to start messing around because of Michael.
Pity that Nico´s season was affected along the way....


#5107 Kovalonso

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:09

You know better than that.

Was it not always said, that it is one of Michael´s strongest points to "gel a team", to spur the team spirit, to pull them all together?
Of course the driver is not the technical brain nor the engineering team, but he is in a pivotal position to pull all the strings together.

And at the moment Rubens appears to be doing just that better than Michael does.


IMO there is no comparison among Rubens and Michael performance this year as a leading driver.

Michael is racing with the best engine and running WDC/WCC team.
Rubens has a new Cosworth venture to push him, running Friday's on a detuned one due to the excess of power loss.
Rubens also changed the way Williams engineers were reading the windtunnel data.

Michael wasn't helping Ferrari to develop their car and that's why Montezemolo allowed him to leave the team before the contract expiration.
Rubens has raced for several teams, making them grow like Jordan, Stewart, Ferrari, Brawn and now Williams. When he left, the whole team performance dropped in a noticeable way.

Michael had a remarkable performance in a given environment, he moved to another one and is not reproducing the results, which might lead to some conclusions. One of them is he wasn't that good actually.
Of course, age gets in the way, but so does to Rubens.

Fact is, even though Michael is faster than Rubens, MS is having a worse performance with better resources.

Edited by Buttoneer, 29 August 2010 - 23:13.


#5108 DanardiF1

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:14

Reno and Williams.. better engineers? Are you mad?

Simply put. Honda bailed. Brawn managed to get an excellent car out and then ran out of money mid-season so little development and direction was in place until Merc came on board fully. So the 2010 is basically like the early season 2009 modified to 2010 regs (and poorly at that). This is a team that for 2 years was always on the brink with little direction for future seasons.

Renault are experiencing the same thing so don`t expect them to get any better any time soon.

As for Williams. Tonnes of promise but without a works team in place, they`ll probably stay as such unless they pull a Brawn one season. But they could every year be considered a dark horse that could come to light any year.

As for Merc. Good engineers. Solid team now. Direction there now and very little concern for long term prospects of the team folding so they can now concentrate on a fully developed 2011 car and ability to start 2012 plans early! They pretty much abandoned the 2010 dog a long time ago, any changes are purely for reliability and R*D knowledge for the 2011 car.

Everyone just needs to get over the fact that the 2010 car is a dog.

IT`S very clear why it is, it is very clear that it isn`t something can be fixed by bolt on`s so the 2010 season is a write off, due to the issues Brawn faced in 2009.


Fans and the media seem to have forgotten that Brawn's championship year was an anomaly for the 'Brackley Team'. They have been on a downward curve since 2006, with worse cars each year until the rewritten rules allowed them to steal a march. Mercedes will need to invest in some new personnel in their aero and, crucially I think, the Tyre-modelling and simulating department.. two years in a row they have made a car that uses it's tyres differently to everyone else... this has had positive effects for drivers like Button, but also big negatives for the same drivers.

This Mercedes/Brawn car is better than the last two Honda dogs, but it's not at the same level the 2004/05/06 BAR/Honda's were, and is more redolent of the earlier BAR cars wheeled out of Brackley...

The media especially are still of the mindset that Mercedes/Brawn are a BIG team and would be one to definitely compete at the front... It was perhaps expected they'd be better than this given the progress the aero dpt. had made in working the new regulations, but with a year of data and lessons learned, the other real BIG teams had time to catch up and refine with their own engineers and aerodynamicists, who on past experiences were better...

Edited by DanardiF1, 28 August 2010 - 18:16.


#5109 AlainProstX

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:18

I wonder how on earth does Paco come to the conclusion that Mercedes GP has better engineers (=better team) than Williams or Renault F1.

Lets take a look at the past, beginning with 2002 (Renaults re-entry into F1):

Renault Williams Mercedes/Brawn/Honda/BAR
2002: 23 92 7
2003: 88 144 26
2004: 105 88 119
2005: 191 66 34
2006: 206 11 86
2007: 51 33 6
2008: 80 26 14
2009: 26 34,5 172

Except 2009, 2006 and 2004, the Merc/Brawn/Honda/BAR was always beaten by Renault AND Williams.

2009 they had a huge advantage and the team worked good. K, but now the advantage is gone. Currently, Renault is in a much better shape then Mercedes. Just imagine Renault having a good driver alongside Kubica like Heidfeld or Sutil and not Petrov. They would be already ahead of Mercedes GP in the constructor standings.



Oh yeah, I forgot, Brawn won the WDC and WCC last year, this means that the Brackley F1 team is MUCH better then Renault and Williams. This also means that the team must be better then Mclaren because Mclaren won no championship last season :)

Edited by AlainProstX, 28 August 2010 - 18:21.


#5110 Paco

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:18

The car is a dog?

Bahrain: Nico 5th, Michael 6th
Australia: Nico 5th, Michael 10th
Malaysia: Nico 3rd, Michael DNF
China: Nico 3rd, Michael 10th

and so on....

Nice dog of a car to have that can bring you to a podium finish, at least if your name is not Michael Schumacher.
It started to go on the wrong tangent the moment they wanted to "improve the car to suit Michael´s driving style" after China.

But that´s not because the car is inherently a dog but because they had to start messing around because of Michael.
Pity that Nico´s season was affected along the way....


It`s as if you think the season stands still... Most teams weren`t up to snuff the 1st 3-4 races and only introduced developments when they got back to Europe. At that point, Merc started to fall behind when the others finally got to Europe. Sure Nico was more comfortable racing around the inherient design flaws early on but as other teams got quicker, Merc couldn`t make any appreciable changes to keep pace as there was not left in the W01.

Michael at least recognized from the beginning that there was something very very wrong having driven championship-race winning cars where as Nico thought it would evolve into a race winner but when the foundation is flawed, sure you patch it a bit but then it runs out and collapses eventually. That`s what we are witnessing now. Hopefully, they get a solid base to work with in 2011 and get themselves into contenders for a championship in 2012.



#5111 Paco

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:29

I wonder how on earth does Paco come to the conclusion that Mercedes GP has better engineers (=better team) than Williams or Renault F1.

Lets take a look at the past, beginning with 2002 (Renaults re-entry into F1):

Renault Williams Mercedes/Brawn/Honda/BAR
2002: 23 92 7
2003: 88 144 26
2004: 105 88 119
2005: 191 66 34
2006: 206 11 86
2007: 51 33 6
2008: 80 26 14
2009: 26 34,5 172

Except 2009, 2006 and 2004, the Merc/Brawn/Honda/BAR was always beaten by Renault AND Williams.

2009 they had a huge advantage and the team worked good. K, but now the advantage is gone. Currently, Renault is in a much better shape then Mercedes. Just imagine Renault having a good driver alongside Kubica like Heidfeld or Sutil and not Petrov. They would be already ahead of Mercedes GP in the constructor standings.



Oh yeah, I forgot, Brawn won the WDC and WCC last year, this means that the Brackley F1 team is MUCH better then Renault and Williams. This also means that the team must be better then Mclaren because Mclaren won no championship last season :)


I`ll state what i just said, it`s as if you think F1 is static. Renault this year is not the same management, engineering wise etc. during the Fernando years etc. The current iteration isn`t as strong financially or R*D wise that the team was years gone by.

As for BAR-Honda-Brawn-Merc.. you have to look at what is in hand today.. not yesterday. BAR was a joke under Willis etc. Honda never really cracked the nut properly.. Brawn was hanging on a very loose string and managed to make excellent use of what they had but it`s not as if BRAWN 2009 = MERC 2010. That`s a far stretch to make. Merc came in, cleaned the house a bit and with some much needed funds, broght in a lot of new people. Time will tell in the next couple of years whether my belief is correct that Merc is stronger as team then Brawn was. That isnt to say Brawn did anything wrong, I just Ross-Mercedes is a better team the Brawn was due to access to capital to invest in its staff and increase its experience and knowledge.


#5112 Paco

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:33

I Guess Many People Here Really Do Go By The Saying ...

YOU`RE ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR LAST RACE..

I guess if Michael comes out if it rains and RAINMASTERS SPA 2010.. all will be forgiven and everyone will sing his praises again and Merc will be villified for signing Michael.. Maybe he`ll even lap his teammate while doing it and the Nico fans will go into hiding...

(sarcasim) :stoned:


#5113 AlainProstX

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:35

I`ll state what i just said, it`s as if you think F1 is static. Renault this year is not the same management, engineering wise etc. during the Fernando years etc. The current iteration isn`t as strong financially or R*D wise that the team was years gone by.

As for BAR-Honda-Brawn-Merc.. you have to look at what is in hand today.. not yesterday. BAR was a joke under Willis etc. Honda never really cracked the nut properly.. Brawn was hanging on a very loose string and managed to make excellent use of what they had but it`s not as if BRAWN 2009 = MERC 2010. That`s a far stretch to make. Merc came in, cleaned the house a bit and with some much needed funds, broght in a lot of new people. Time will tell in the next couple of years whether my belief is correct that Merc is stronger as team then Brawn was. That isnt to say Brawn did anything wrong, I just Ross-Mercedes is a better team the Brawn was due to access to capital to invest in its staff and increase its experience and knowledge.



Your "stronger" team is somehow weaker then Renault since several weeks and ruins the races of their drivers with bad calls/strategies/managements.

Yes, I would go so far to say this team is just like the Brackley team before the 2009 year.



#5114 Diablobb81

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:39

Seems the haters have come out in force today with inane comments. Must be because they lost their only ammunition in the quali.

#5115 arknor

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:46

Merc came in, cleaned the house a bit and with some much needed funds, broght in a lot of new people.

erm they did? then why is thr mercedes team running on a skeleton staff still?

you do realise they are running with half the man power of most teams right :rolleyes:

some people in this forum are either ignorant or post what they know is BS assuming noone will realise

#5116 cindy4ever33

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:47

I`ll state what i just said, it`s as if you think F1 is static. Renault this year is not the same management, engineering wise etc. during the Fernando years etc. The current iteration isn`t as strong financially or R*D wise that the team was years gone by.

As for BAR-Honda-Brawn-Merc.. you have to look at what is in hand today.. not yesterday. BAR was a joke under Willis etc. Honda never really cracked the nut properly.. Brawn was hanging on a very loose string and managed to make excellent use of what they had but it`s not as if BRAWN 2009 = MERC 2010. That`s a far stretch to make. Merc came in, cleaned the house a bit and with some much needed funds, broght in a lot of new people. Time will tell in the next couple of years whether my belief is correct that Merc is stronger as team then Brawn was. That isnt to say Brawn did anything wrong, I just Ross-Mercedes is a better team the Brawn was due to access to capital to invest in its staff and increase its experience and knowledge.


Time will tell you are right. Maybe next year or maybe year after Michael. I am not so sure what next year's car is gonna be but I am adamant that Merc will one of the strongest teams on the grid as long as they have Ross on board with input or something from experienced drivers like MSC.

#5117 cindy4ever33

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:49

erm they did? then why is thr mercedes team running on a skeleton staff still?

you do realise they are running with half the man power of most teams right :rolleyes:

some people in this forum are either ignorant or post what they know is BS assuming noone will realise


Isn't that cutting people one of the budget plan by FIA?

Next year all teams have to lay off some members to meet the maximum of 350 around.

#5118 Paco

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:51

Fans and the media seem to have forgotten that Brawn's championship year was an anomaly for the 'Brackley Team'. They have been on a downward curve since 2006, with worse cars each year until the rewritten rules allowed them to steal a march. Mercedes will need to invest in some new personnel in their aero and, crucially I think, the Tyre-modelling and simulating department.. two years in a row they have made a car that uses it's tyres differently to everyone else... this has had positive effects for drivers like Button, but also big negatives for the same drivers.

This Mercedes/Brawn car is better than the last two Honda dogs, but it's not at the same level the 2004/05/06 BAR/Honda's were, and is more redolent of the earlier BAR cars wheeled out of Brackley...

The media especially are still of the mindset that Mercedes/Brawn are a BIG team and would be one to definitely compete at the front... It was perhaps expected they'd be better than this given the progress the aero dpt. had made in working the new regulations, but with a year of data and lessons learned, the other real BIG teams had time to catch up and refine with their own engineers and aerodynamicists, who on past experiences were better...


Exactly. Unless something truly disasterious happens at Merc. They can really only go up from here next year.

Let`s not forget, BWM tried and failed at realizing the goals as a works team. Give Merc and Michael some time and I have a hunch that they`ll be a stronger team in 2012 then anything BMW accomplished during their stints as a engine supplier and full works team.

Considering how long and many years it took the genius of Newey to build RedBull this stage and what looks to be a championshipo.. think a driver like Michael would work a miracle at making the W01 a race winner is absolute crazy talk. I personally wouldn`t be suprised if Merc doesn`t win the championship until after Michael is gone but I do think they`ll win races faster by having him there. I very very much doubt Nico had it in him at the beginning of 2010 to lead team into a championship squad. How, having seen how Michael operates etc. he`s probably much more able to be a numbero 1 if and when Merc is ready to run at the front. However, I still think Michael will humble Nico before Michael is done and retired from his Merc uniform as a driver.



#5119 Paco

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 18:58

erm they did? then why is thr mercedes team running on a skeleton staff still?

you do realise they are running with half the man power of most teams right :rolleyes:

some people in this forum are either ignorant or post what they know is BS assuming noone will realise


Skeleton staff. Maybe at season start. Doesn`t mean that is still the case. Plus, they said from the word go they needed to evaluate everyone on staff as the season progressed and put into place necessary changes. I`m sure they have a shopping least of people and positions they want to fill and a list of people that will be getting some much needed pink slips. All the more reason to believe this year was simply a - Lets get through it year and make sure we ready for a solid 2011 compaign.

As for the 350.. that`s just the FIA being stupid again... It`s sooo easy for Merc to create a new company, fire staff and have them hired by the new company and run them as consultants. Same staff count.. just different setup.

Edited by Paco, 28 August 2010 - 19:21.


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#5120 arknor

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 19:01

Isn't that cutting people one of the budget plan by FIA?

Next year all teams have to lay off some members to meet the maximum of 350 around.

yea which was done long before mercedes brought anything to the team...

its one of the big reasons the car sucks and the upgrades arent coming compared to everyone else.

lets just blame it on schumacher though brawn had to fire them to pay schumacher the wage he wanted or something that makes the hatred filled people happy

#5121 ivand911

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 19:13

Skeleton staff. Maybe at season start. Doesn`t mean that is still the case. Plus, they said from the word go they needed to evaluate everyone on staff as the season progressed and put into place necessary changes. I`m sure they have a shopping least of positions and positions they want to fill and a list of people that will be getting some much needed pink slips. All the more reason to believe this year was simply a - Lets get through it year and make sure we ready for a solid 2011 compaign.

As for the 350.. that`s just the FIA being stupid again... It`s sooo easy for a create a new company, fire staff and have them hired by the new company and run them as consultants. Same staff count.. just different setup.

We all want MGP and Michael to do well. I didn't hear that MGP hire some new good specialists. Do you have any source or you just think this right thing to do? I said that Reno and Williams have better engineers because they improve constantly, their updates work , when MGP is going back. Yes it is true that Williams and Reno have better base(car) to work on. MGP is looking now like amateur team. I am not happy with this. For me drivers are victims only. I don't think Williams have more staff than MGP , this is not why they are better. As I said their updates work because base is better. MGP car don't have much potential for improvement. Lower air intake is problem for the car more than help. This is because they can't make normal F-duct this way.

Edited by ivand911, 28 August 2010 - 19:14.


#5122 Paco

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 19:30

We all want MGP and Michael to do well. I didn't hear that MGP hire some new good specialists. Do you have any source or you just think this right thing to do? I said that Reno and Williams have better engineers because they improve constantly, their updates work , when MGP is going back. Yes it is true that Williams and Reno have better base(car) to work on. MGP is looking now like amateur team. I am not happy with this. For me drivers are victims only. I don't think Williams have more staff than MGP , this is not why they are better. As I said their updates work because base is better. MGP car don't have much potential for improvement. Lower air intake is problem for the car more than help. This is because they can't make normal F-duct this way.


What I keep thinking is that Ross is a pretty canny individual and Merc have been in F1 long enough to know how to do things. I have feeling, they are simply:

Setting the bar very low now so as not to set the expectations too high and fall flat on their face.

If they improve.. they'll be vindicating for putting so much resource into the W02 and abandoning a car without little potential.
If they stay status quo.. they're building up the team and no one will really think much of it. Michael annouces his retirement mid-season and takes up a position on the wall.
If they fall back.. well, there really wont be much farther to fall by season end so.. the odds of that happening are very very low.

If they were to make incremental improvements and finish 4.. or 5th.. Then they have to basically be a top 3 team next season or would be considered a failure to a team that is stalled. Not exactly where you want to be in year 2 of your program.



#5123 Paco

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 19:41

Source for team having hired people... no inside info.

However, if the 02 is well into development .. highly doubt it would have been by the same people that weren't able to finish the 2009 compaign and fundamentally designed a bad 2010 car .. even if it's the 2009 in disguise. Plus, if the team was hemorraging technically .. i'm sure Merc would have recruited top software and CFD, mechanical and aero guys before they set foot designing the 2011 challenger.

If it were me running the team, I would have had severe reservations about moving forward with 2011 unless improvements were made staffing wise and a serious amount of knowledge was brought in to improve my cause. The drivers aren't the cause for a failed 2010 so you have to look at everyone else as probable cause and make it right before going forward in 2011. Considering how quickly those decisions need to be made, I find it almost impossible that Mercedes isn't a larger squad now then at the start of the season.

Considering the new potential entrant for 2011 Epsilon is already at mockup and wind tunnel testing.. it just goes to show that August would be too late for them to be thinking of NOW hiring people. That would had to have happened months back or else 2011 would be compromised.

But hey, that's logical thinking and soo many here seem to want to ignore that F1 isn't about the last race so maybe after todays qualifying.. merc decided to shrink it's team further .. why bother paying people if results are coming along fast enough :-) :-) :-)

Edited by Paco, 28 August 2010 - 19:46.


#5124 ivand911

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 19:54

Hope tomorrow for changeable conditions. Not because car will be better, but because other drivers can make more mistakes. Petorv will be strong from 24th, because of the car. Koba and Buemi are first problems for Michael. Where Koba maybe have faster car. But the race would be interesting.

#5125 arknor

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 20:25

Source for team having hired people... no inside info.

However, if the 02 is well into development .. highly doubt it would have been by the same people that weren't able to finish the 2009 compaign and fundamentally designed a bad 2010 car .. even if it's the 2009 in disguise. Plus, if the team was hemorraging technically .. i'm sure Merc would have recruited top software and CFD, mechanical and aero guys before they set foot designing the 2011 challenger.

If it were me running the team, I would have had severe reservations about moving forward with 2011 unless improvements were made staffing wise and a serious amount of knowledge was brought in to improve my cause. The drivers aren't the cause for a failed 2010 so you have to look at everyone else as probable cause and make it right before going forward in 2011. Considering how quickly those decisions need to be made, I find it almost impossible that Mercedes isn't a larger squad now then at the start of the season.

Considering the new potential entrant for 2011 Epsilon is already at mockup and wind tunnel testing.. it just goes to show that August would be too late for them to be thinking of NOW hiring people. That would had to have happened months back or else 2011 would be compromised.

But hey, that's logical thinking and soo many here seem to want to ignore that F1 isn't about the last race so maybe after todays qualifying.. merc decided to shrink it's team further .. why bother paying people if results are coming along fast enough :-) :-) :-)

so your source is you guessing and assuming?

i cant believe brawn would sack hundreds of people to meet the suposed staff limit which might never happens anyway, you see ferrari , redbull , mclaren etc firing half of their staff? , impose pay freezes etc just to hire all these new workers you dreamed up.

but hey if that is the case no wonder the upgrades arent working morale will be rock bottom

#5126 DanardiF1

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 23:13

so your source is you guessing and assuming?

i cant believe brawn would sack hundreds of people to meet the suposed staff limit which might never happens anyway, you see ferrari , redbull , mclaren etc firing half of their staff? , impose pay freezes etc just to hire all these new workers you dreamed up.

but hey if that is the case no wonder the upgrades arent working morale will be rock bottom


Well we know they downsized to 450 early last year, to be able to afford to still go racing. That would still make them amongst the 'smaller' teams on the grid. Isn't Sauber working with a similar amount? And I can't imagine Force India working on much more...

Mercedes said all along that they were going to run this team to a certain budget, and make their racing pay well. They're probably not using much Merc money at all this year, what with their TV money for the WCC and the Petronas deal...

But if they are going to keep that level of personnel whilst the megateams like McLaren and Ferrari have double, they're going to have to realise that they'll need to up the quality of the staff, and that'll cost money.

#5127 aditya-now

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 23:29

IMO there is no comparison among Rubens and Michael performance this year as a leading driver.

Michael is racing with the best engine and running WDC/WCC team.
Rubens has a new Cosworth venture to push him, running Friday's on a detuned one due to the excess of power loss.
Rubens also changed the way Williams engineers were reading the windtunnel data.

Michael wasn't helping Ferrari to develop their car and that's why Montezemolo allowed him to leave the team before the contract expiration.
Rubens has raced for several teams, making them grow like Jordan, Stewart, Ferrari, Brawn and now Williams. When he left, the whole team performance dropped in a noticeable way.

Michael had a remarkable performance in a given environment, he moved to another one and is not reproducing the results, which might lead to some conclusions. One of them is he wasn't that good actually.
Of course, age gets in the way, but so does to Rubens.

Fact is, even though Michael is faster than Rubens, MS is having a worse performance with better results.


Thanks for the kind words, Kovalanso.

What you say about Rubens is quite telling, looking at his record at Jordan, Stewart, Ferrari, Brawn and now Williams.

This is probably one of the most overlooked facts, and, Rubens being Rubens, a bit of a cry-baby, he often did not help his own case. Yet Michael was lucky to have had him as his lieutenant for six years, longer than any other team mate. And in these six years Michael won 5 WDCs.

#5128 Massa

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 00:52

Rubens 7th
Michael 11th

Interesting to see the comparison where Barrichello took Williams in development this year and where Michael took Mercedes in development this year.
Come to think of it, Michael won all his WDCs with Ferrari while Rubens was his teammate....after Rubens left Ferrari, Michael did not cut it anymore.

Jenson became WDC last year, again with Rubens doing the development work.

So while it is clear that Rubens is not a driver of WDC calibre, he is a pretty good developer and team worker. It´s great to see Williams on the up after 5 years in the doldrums, and it is telling to see where Mercedes is going within the same span of time with Michael doing the development at Merc....




Stop bullshit please.. :|


Schumacher come at Ferrari in 1996, Ferrari was one second off the pace at least. 1997, 1998 second. 1999 injury. Before sign Barrichello at Ferrari, the car was already the fastest.

Rubens, this genius driver, had the best car in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2009. Each time, he was beaten by his teammate.

#5129 arknor

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 00:52

Thanks for the kind words, Kovalanso.

What you say about Rubens is quite telling, looking at his record at Jordan, Stewart, Ferrari, Brawn and now Williams.

This is probably one of the most overlooked facts, and, Rubens being Rubens, a bit of a cry-baby, he often did not help his own case. Yet Michael was lucky to have had him as his lieutenant for six years, longer than any other team mate. And in these six years Michael won 5 WDCs.

yes because it was rubens doing the hundreds of thousands of miles of testing at muggelo every year ? you guys are so desperate to have a go at schumacher, you cant do it about his performance relative to his team mate so far this weekend so you try to pull any old BS out of the wood work.
we all know schumachers team mates didnt see mugello much while schumacher may aswell have lived there

#5130 Massa

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 01:03

Nevermind aditya.

Rubens has raced for several teams, making them grow like Jordan, Stewart, Ferrari, Brawn and now Williams. When he left, the whole team performance dropped in a noticeable way.



Jordan in 1998 and 1999 was the third force in formula, with Hill, Frentzen and Ralf.
Ferrari since 2005: second car in 2006.
Title in 2007.
Title in 2008
third car with Macca in 2009. Oh, Ferrari need Rubens, since he left nothing goes well... :rotfl:

The whole team performance of Brawn dropped after Turkey 2009, Barrichello was still at Brawn GP.

Edited by Massa, 29 August 2010 - 01:06.


#5131 SeanValen

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 01:10

It's good to see MS enjoying Spa again, it's been what like 5 years since he raced there and Sato took him out in his last race in 2005, and there was no Spa race in 2006-his last year at ferrari, then his retirement, on friday/saturday looking at his times and general driving vibe-seems pumped up to make the best of a bad situation, the penality and a car that isn't handling well, but still enjoying it, what a competitor. Sometimes being at Spa in a f1 car is just damn right cool in its own right, great track, great competitors, the spectare of rain/forests/the 1st corner at la source, this is f1! :smoking: :up:


Positive vibes :up:

Edited by SeanValen, 29 August 2010 - 01:12.


#5132 cindy4ever33

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 03:03

We all want MGP and Michael to do well. I didn't hear that MGP hire some new good specialists. Do you have any source or you just think this right thing to do? I said that Reno and Williams have better engineers because they improve constantly, their updates work , when MGP is going back. Yes it is true that Williams and Reno have better base(car) to work on. MGP is looking now like amateur team. I am not happy with this. For me drivers are victims only. I don't think Williams have more staff than MGP , this is not why they are better. As I said their updates work because base is better. MGP car don't have much potential for improvement. Lower air intake is problem for the car more than help. This is because they can't make normal F-duct this way.


Rumors said Nicolas Tombasiz will go to MGP. It is said in German source and no one yet confirms or denies the rumor.

#5133 slaveceru

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 04:32

Rubens 7th
Michael 11th

Interesting to see the comparison where Barrichello took Williams in development this year and where Michael took Mercedes in development this year.
Come to think of it, Michael won all his WDCs with Ferrari while Rubens was his teammate....after Rubens left Ferrari, Michael did not cut it anymore.

Jenson became WDC last year, again with Rubens doing the development work.

So while it is clear that Rubens is not a driver of WDC calibre, he is a pretty good developer and team worker. It´s great to see Williams on the up after 5 years in the doldrums, and it is telling to see where Mercedes is going within the same span of time with Michael doing the development at Merc....

Say it straigh Rubens is better developer of cars than Schumacher :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
You say that Rubens developed the car for Schumacher in Ferrari jet Rubens has always said that he does not like driving the car which was developed strictly for Schumacher who had No1 status. It is getting better and better. If Rubens would develop the car for him and Schumacher that he would like the car and not say that all the team was concentrated on Schumacher and the car was strictly prepared and developed for Schumacher? This is trolling.
If the base of the car is not good, this is the case with MPG car, than the drivers input cannot help in the development because the base is crap is this not clear or what?

#5134 Kovalonso

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 05:27

Thanks for the kind words, Kovalanso.

You're welcome :wave:

Edited by Buttoneer, 29 August 2010 - 23:15.


#5135 MaxisOne

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 05:58

Rumors said Nicolas Tombasiz will go to MGP. It is said in German source and no one yet confirms or denies the rumor.


Post the source please ..


#5136 aditya-now

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 06:03

yes because it was rubens doing the hundreds of thousands of miles of testing at muggelo every year ? you guys are so desperate to have a go at schumacher, you cant do it about his performance relative to his team mate so far this weekend so you try to pull any old BS out of the wood work.
we all know schumachers team mates didnt see mugello much while schumacher may aswell have lived there


You mean Maranello or Mugello?


#5137 cindy4ever33

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 06:25

Post the source please ..


The link is http://www.bild.de/B...chste-jahr.html

Mercedes plant schon für das nächste Jahr


2011 SOLL ES ENDLICH BESSER WERDEN: SCHUMIS RENNSTALL BAGGERT AN FERRARIS CHEFDESIGNER

Im Chefbüro der Silberpfeile liegt eine 288 Seiten starke Mappe auf dem Tisch von Teamchef Ross Brawn. Der Atomphysiker mit dem Spitznamen „Superhirn“ hat vom neuen Reifenhersteller Pirelli die wichtigen Infos bekommen, wie die Gummis der Formel-1-Autos nächstes Jahr aussehen werden.

Damit hat Brawn jetzt endlich alle Puzzleteile zusammen. Er sagt: „Wir können jetzt richtig loslegen.“ Mercedes baut ab sofort mit Volldampf das Auto für 2011. Schon 2008 hat Schumis Superhirn mit diesem Trick Erfolg gehabt. Er ließ den lahmen Honda ohne große Entwicklungen weiterfahren und setzte alles auf das Auto ein Jahr später. Prompt glückte ihm ein Meisterwagen.

Auch dieses Jahr hat das Team im WM-Kampf keine Chance mehr. Das weiß intern bei Mercedes mittlerweile jeder.

Auch wenn Schumi in Valencia noch öffentlich gesagt hat: „Es ist zu früh, sich auf das nächste Jahr zu konzentrieren.“ Das muss er sagen. Sein Arbeitgeber Mercedes kann sich nicht leisten, mehr als eine halbe Saison lang hinterherzufahren und dabei den Anschein zu erwecken, freiwillig abzuschenken. Deshalb wird offiziell volle Pulle weiterentwickelt.

Mercedes-Boss Norbert Haug klingt immer noch kämpferisch: „Wartet ab. Da kommt noch was.“

Doch Mercedes kann lange auf das Wunder warten. Brawn ist mit dem ersten Silberpfeil nur ein solides Auto gelungen. Es fehlte von Anfang an die große Erfindung, um den Wagen an die Spitze zu führen. Michael Schumacher (41) und Nico Rosberg (25) sind derzeit das schlechteste der vier Topteams. Und nichts spricht dafür, dass sich daran in den verbleibenden 10 von 19 Rennen noch etwas ändert.

Bereits jetzt stellt das Team deshalb seine Mannschaft für 2011 auf. Von Ferrari soll Chefdesigner Nikolas Tombazis weggelockt werden. Der Grieche kenntSchumi und Ross Brawn schon ewig. Er arbeitete bei Benetton als Aerodynamiker an Schumis beiden Titeln mit. Er holte mit Schumi bis 2003 vier Titel bei Ferrari. Sein Spezialgebiet ist die Aerodynamik. Auch so ein Schwachpunkt am Mercedes. Offiziell wird dementiert. Aber Ferrari will den Spitzenmann unbedingt halten und richtet sich auf eine Abwehrschlacht ein.

Schumi braucht die Hilfe.

Er schlägt sich nach seinen drei Jahren Pause zwar passabel, aber glücklos. Sein Riesenproblem kann er noch nicht lösen: Schumi weiß nicht, wie er mit den Reifen besser umgehen kann. Die Gummis sind hochempfindlich, müssen auf die richtige Temperatur (zwischen 80 und 90 Grad) gebracht werden, sonst bleibt jede Menge Zeit liegen. Ein falsches Bremsmanöver und die Dinger sind hinüber. Schumi: „Wir wissen selbst nicht, warum das so ist.“ Nächstes Jahr, wenn statt Bridgestone nun Pirelli Reifen liefert, könnte alles noch komplizierter werden. Die Mercedes-Arbeitsgruppe, die sich ausschließlich um Reifen kümmert, wird deshalb vergrößert.

Noch hat Mercedes das kleinste der vier Topteams. Vor der Mercedes-Übernahme im Winter wusste Teamchef Brawn nicht, wie er das Team finanzieren kann.
Er hat deshalb 280 Leute entlassen. 450 Mitarbeiter sind noch in Brackley beschäftigt. Ab nächstem Jahr sind alle Teams gleich groß: Dann darf die Rennmannschaft nur noch aus maximal 350 Mann bestehen. Ferrari, McLaren oder Red Bull müssen zum Teil mehr als die Hälfte ihrer Leute entlassen. Das wird eine Chance.

Die Männer um das Superhirn wissen bereits, wie man mit der kleinen Besetzung arbeitet. Die anderen Teams müssen diese Umstellung erst noch hinkriegen.

Auch Schumi schuftet weiter hart, um näher ranzukommen. Samstag in Valencia saß er noch lange im Technik-LKW und verglich Datenblatt um Datenblatt. Das Abendessen ließ er sich unter Alufolie verpackt bringen.
Er nahm sich nicht einmal die Zeit, in den Speiseraum zu kommen.



#5138 ivand911

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 07:56

Rubens 7th
Sutil 8th
Rookie 9th
Alonso 10th
Michael 11th
Why to put only 7th and 11th position, when we put other positions too picture change dramatically. And somebody here discuss that Rubens is better in development than Michael. If you ask me then he is better than Alonso too. Alonso make his car look bad, where Massa show car true potential. Retirement come to mind. This is familiar situation Nico/Michael. Just to remember what garbage we hear then. One of the best driver now with his very good car finished Qualy only one position before Michael and his dog car. He is not good for Ferrari, he don't deserve his salary. Look Massa is good in development. Alonso did not cut it anymore(here I just change the name). He think he is still on holiday and driving for Renault. But look where is Renault now and where is Ferrari. Somebody kill their(Ferrari) development. Even Hulk and Sutil are better in development.
But still Alonso can do something good in the race, I still believe in him.

Edited by ivand911, 29 August 2010 - 08:00.


#5139 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 08:50

yes because it was rubens doing the hundreds of thousands of miles of testing at muggelo every year ?

That was Luca Badoer.

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#5140 Massa

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 10:38

That was Luca Badoer.



False. That was Schumacher. For example, for the 2006 season, he has not gone on vacation and testing the new car all winter.

#5141 Paco

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 11:43

so your source is you guessing and assuming?

i cant believe brawn would sack hundreds of people to meet the suposed staff limit which might never happens anyway, you see ferrari , redbull , mclaren etc firing half of their staff? , impose pay freezes etc just to hire all these new workers you dreamed up.

but hey if that is the case no wonder the upgrades arent working morale will be rock bottom


I never said Brawn fired hundreds and if he did, there was probably a reason for it. That doesn't mean anything if it did happen as they were probably simply replaced, maybe not 1 for 1 but it's not about the absolutely number of staff but the quality of them. 1 good engineer can make up for 10 poors one so absolute count is meaningless. Especially when you look at McLaren and Ferrari that probably use their engineers for side projects not related to F1.



#5142 Paco

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 11:45

The one thing I'll say about Rubens and his manager, they have an uncanny knack of putting him into the right position at the right time.

I for one would wish the man would just go away already but yet, he finds a way to stay on the grid year after year and making the most of this opportunities. Kudo's to him for being able to do that. Very very very few drivers have ever been able to do that for as long as he been able to.

#5143 arknor

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 11:52

I never said Brawn fired hundreds and if he did, there was probably a reason for it. That doesn't mean anything if it did happen as they were probably simply replaced, maybe not 1 for 1 but it's not about the absolutely number of staff but the quality of them. 1 good engineer can make up for 10 poors one so absolute count is meaningless. Especially when you look at McLaren and Ferrari that probably use their engineers for side projects not related to F1.

they were fired , they were never replaced, brawn are the only team under what should be the staff cap if the FIA actually implement it.

brawn seems to have taken a gamble on having an advantage if the cap gets introduced but non of the other teams will want to just fire hundreds of staff

#5144 Massa_f1

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 13:34

Good drive today let the haters say what they want just cause Rosberg beat him but good solid drive from the back.

#5145 Tarzaan

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 13:36

It was not bad. The low downforce set-up wasn't good after the last SC, but the +14 place is good.

Monza should be horrible with this car/top-speed.

#5146 z2z

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 13:38

Hail Kaiser!!! :D

#5147 marchi-91

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 13:40

Great race from Michael. Only thing that got Rosberg near him was that last safety car. Outclassed all day and only a more rain dedicated setup stopped Rosberg from being deservedly beaten.

#5148 arknor

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 13:43

Good drive today let the haters say what they want just cause Rosberg beat him but good solid drive from the back.

yea good race imo, he couldnt really have done much better with the car its a pitty a safety cat at the end robbed him and im pretty sure schumacher wasnt the 6th car behind the safety car, it didnt look like a mercedes to me anyway so i can only assume he had traffic straight after the safety car pulled into the pits which led to his downfall.

he showed good pace throughout the race until the end though, he was definetly quicker than rosberg until the very end , it seemed rosberg had a better setup for a wet race which would make sense imo seeing as schumacher was faster throughout the weekend in s1 and 3 which suggested he had a lower downforce setup..


no doubt the trolls will come out in force and spoil this topic though

#5149 Urawa

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 13:43

Yeah, faultless drive.
If somebody would have told me before this weekend he would finish only one place behind his teammate I would have taken that immediately!

#5150 Boing 2

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 13:48

Great race from Michael. Only thing that got Rosberg near him was that last safety car. Outclassed all day and only a more rain dedicated setup stopped Rosberg from being deservedly beaten.



surely the fact that the majority of the race was dry would mean that a wet set up was a bigger hinderance than benefit, to beat a guy with a more suitable set up was impressive.