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#5251 valachus

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 18:53

Pity?? Pity???

I tell you what I pity.

I pity the pathetic who are unable to enjoy the happiness and joy of others, and take every opportunity to espouse negativity.

One life to live, squandered, in attempt to make everyone miserable.


Being a new comer here and having followed several threads for sometime, I can honestly say that this forum is one of the most hateful, negative places I have chanced upon. No driver is immune to the hate, and I mean abject hate, just look at any thread concerning any driver. Some drivers attract more for obvious reasons, success is directly proportional to their dislike and vicissitude to which this is expressed.

Just my opinion, one that is no doubt ignorant, stupid, and worthless to someone who participates here.


Have a nice day!! :wave:


These are bitter times for many, my friend, the Depression is upon us and whatnot. However there is a way to make the forum quite enjoyable, "Use the Force*, Luke". Even if the trolls make clone accounts, they're easy to spot. I have some 30 or so in my list, and this way it's a pleasure to read the forum every day.
*i.e. the "ignore" function

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#5252 aditya-now

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 19:50

face it a - n

I note in your profile that your favourites would seem to include anybody who was not schumacher or a ferrari during the schumcaher era despite some classic races and finishes

you love ferrari but not when they were winning under todt?? a real tifosi then. rather watch a shambles but keep your nobility eh. coupla miss calls warranted all that spite despite watching a team regain and surpass past glories. as if the great man wasnt above making some dubious ethical calls either. lets forget that montazemalo also ran the team when the likes of lauda strutted around and threw out their toys.

face it mate you just cant stand schumacher and are incapable of finding anything positive so why dont you find somewhere else to espouse your views.



Good post.

A real tifoso you say - well, truth is, under Todt, Brawn, Byrne and Schumacher Ferrari were more successful than at any other time in history, yet to me that was not Ferrari. It was an international superstar ensemble, but not the Scuderia that I know and love, the Scuderia with all it´s mistakes, but deeply Italian (I lived in Milano and Roma for 1 1/2 years).

Ferrari is to me the team built by Enzo Ferrari, if you go to Maranello you still feel his spirit there. It´s in the buildings, in the aura, even in the paint on the buildings, something atmospherical and almost mystical. I don´t feel anything of Todt or Michael there anymore - Ferrari is Enzo, and to a certain extent Luca di Montezemolo, with all his rights and wrongs.

So please don´t call me "a real tifosi then", ask the Italians, for them Michael "does not drive for us" anymore. Being a tifoso Ferrari from 1993 till 2007 was a different Ferrari, the most successful in history and yet the most un-Ferrari. Now we are back to the Italian Scuderia, to the grande casino (although that is much better than in, say, the 70s), and this team is charming, arrogant, passionate, warm-hearted and deeply Italian, with all the contradictions. Not a cold-blooded winning-machine.

I prefer it 100% over the Todt-era Ferrari, and I am not alone with this view.

the assumption by joining a forum is that you are open to anothers point of view


Yes, and that pertains to both sides.

#5253 aditya-now

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 19:55

Nice belly Frans. :wave:

I can't believe you posted pictures of yourself in your profile.

Posted Image

I predict your body will soon apear in the "Photoshopped" thread... with the head of Schumacher. :wave:


This is Frans how we know and love him. He has his opinions (that many of you here don´t enjoy) and is yet sweet and kind. And, he is fascinated by the phenomenon that is Michael Schumacher, if from the other side of the spectrum (like myself).

Indeed, I should post a picture of myself and my belly, so that you guys can photoshop us with Schumi-features!

:lol:



#5254 aditya-now

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 20:14

Baddog mentioned cheering for ones heroes.

I too have attended various sporting events in my life with friends, but nothing has ever driven me to make stupid posters for the athletes/teams I support, stand in line for ages to see them or to get their autographs or scream like crazy when said athletes show up. Quite frankly, I pity anyone who behaves like that.


That is a very valid point - the fan groups of certain drivers can be very particular - in the Central European area it was virtually impossible to attend a race without having to deal with the red caps, the Schumi-fans, who had no idea about the sport and who were/are impertinent and loud in the extreme.

What baddog and Buttoneer cannot see is that people like me suffered long enough under this occurence of "fans", who were/are not so far away from the hooligans of soccer. And that we still cannot see green with them and their idol for the taste and flavour they have brought to the sport.

Apart from Schumi and his squadrons Mansell mania comes to mind, also he brought a type of fans with himself that were not the usual F1-afficionados. Lately it was Alonso and a particular group of Spanish fans and Lewis and a certain segment of his fans that brought a similar quality. Although I must say that Lewis´fans are generally more innocent and less beer-drinker/loud/unsubtle than the Schumacher fan variety.
And I am speaking about the fans that a driver brings to the races.

Look at the style of the Button fans, the Raikkonen fans or the Mika Hakkinen fans, they are much more enjoyable and less fanatic and polarizing.

Schumi polarized fans and anti-fans from the beginning of his career, it is of his own making, on the track and off the track, we all have to live with it, whether we are on one side of the fence or on the other or middle-ground like baddog and Buttoneer. The ones that like Schumacher like him as vehemently as those who dislike him. Only that if you dislike him you get very nice worded blessings here in this forum.

Again, Michael made his own enemies and continues to make them. So I don´t see how the resonance he creates will ever change.


Being a new comer here and having followed several threads for sometime, I can honestly say that this forum is one of the most hateful, negative places I have chanced upon. No driver is immune to the hate, and I mean abject hate, just look at any thread concerning any driver. Some drivers attract more for obvious reasons, success is directly proportional to their dislike and vicissitude to which this is expressed.



Very valid entry, SpeedyTimer, yet with one thing I have to disagree:

"Some drivers attract more negativity than others for obvious reasons" you say, "success is directly proportionate to their dislike"....

Had Jenson Button, Kimi Raikkonen or Mika Hakkinen attained the same success as Schumacher, I still doubt that they would attract as much negativity.

They just miss the Macau 1990, Adelaide 1994, Jerez 1997, Montreal 1998, Austria 2002, Monaco 2006 and Hungary 2010 in their CV, so they reap different fruits. Without wanting to bring in anything religious, here is two quotes:"As thou sowest so thou shalt reap" and "he who has sown wind shall reap a storm". Michael has done so on numerous occassions. So it´s not his list of WDCs or GP wins, but the list above, for starters.

If Jenson or Kimi would have 7 WDCs I would still enjoy them, very much so, Even Lewis or Fernando, although these two are more polarizing. Yet all four are fair (to a varying extent). Michael´s 1994 season with the illegal Benetton still leaves a bad feeling in my stomach, like Singapore 2008 (both Briatore creations). Also Michael and Fernando share Austria 2002/Hockenheim 2010, so in this field both Michael and Fernando are no slouches. But then Alonso misses the Macau 1990, Adelaide 1994, Jerez 1997, Montreal 1998, Monaco 2006 and Hungary 2010 in his record, so still Michael has decidedly more negative vibes in his CV.

Well, finally you could argue that exactly because of that lack of ruthlessness a Button or a Raikkonen will never equal Michael´s record, but thank you very much, I prefer the Buttons, Webbers, Raikkonens, Hamiltons, Vettels and Alonsos of the sport.

(I am well aware that I am reaping my own due here on the BB for not going the politically correct way of tuning into the "Yeah, Michael!!!" chorus)

Edited by aditya-now, 03 September 2010 - 20:50.


#5255 SpeedyTimer

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 02:59

Well, finally you could argue that exactly because of that lack of ruthlessness a Button or a Raikkonen will never equal Michael´s record, but thank you very much, I prefer the Buttons, Webbers, Raikkonens, Hamiltons, Vettels and Alonsos of the sport.

(I am well aware that I am reaping my own due here on the BB for not going the politically correct way of tuning into the "Yeah, Michael!!!" chorus)



I agree. Raikkonen, probably the purest talent of all you mentioned was only destined for one, because he played fair as did Button.

You don't win 7 by cowering in the corner.

#5256 SparkPlug

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 05:46

Too much has been made of Macau 1990, honestly. I dont see how anyone can blame Schumacher for that incident at all. I remember following this race that year, and even have a recording of the race somewhere on tape. Finland did have minimal coverage of Hakkinen's career through the lower formulae, and no one in the media or from racing circles blamed Schumacher for that one at the time. To me it looked like a racing incident, and infact I would admit as a Hakkinen fan that he was a little too eager to pass Schumacher, and deserves blame there

EDIT : It seems like I am not the only one who thinks Mika should take most of the blame for Macau 1990 :
James Allen

"If you look back, many champions have it. It was impetuousness that caused Mika Hakkinen to try to pass Michael Schumacher in Macau, there are countless examples from the early careers of Senna, Schumacher and others."

Edited by SparkPlug, 04 September 2010 - 05:51.


#5257 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 06:04

I'm in a quiet minority that thinks Damon was at least 50% to blame for Adelaide...

#5258 Kovalonso

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 06:12

I'm in a quiet minority that thinks Damon was at least 50% to blame for Adelaide...

I agree with you: it takes two to tangle. :p

#5259 aditya-now

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 06:39

Ah, that leaves Jerez 1997, Montreal 1998, Austria 2002, Monaco 2006 and Hungary 2010 for the most obvious examples. But easily you will find excuses for these races as well. Meaning Michael Schumacher is and always has been an angel. And anyone finding fault with Michael is an outright......


 ;)








:lol:













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#5260 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 06:43

I'm in a quiet minority that thinks Damon was at least 50% to blame for Adelaide...

And i would suggest that you are in a small minority.

#5261 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 06:45

Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Damon lost any claim to the corner when he jumped on the brakes and no longer had a large speed differential when he made his move to pass. It was late and desperate, they were both driving like rookies.

#5262 ivand911

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 06:46

And i would suggest that you are in a small minority.

Not so small. :) Aditya can you say something good for Michael because we know that according to you he is bad, his fans are bad, place where he race are bad, his wife and children are bad, his dogs are bad, his brother is bad, his father is bad. His 5 titles with Ferrari are bad. What else about him is bad? I am so pity about you and CWA for your suffering, maybe you can sue him? How much you suffer from his fans in racing days in Central Europe. Since when you didn't visit live GP? I can imagine since 1998?

Edited by ivand911, 04 September 2010 - 09:13.


#5263 ivand911

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 09:14

Schumi: No guarantee for success

Michael Schumacher insists he's not damaging his legacy through his rather trying return to F1 with Mercedes GP.

Having claimed seven World titles and 91 grand prix victories, Schumacher is, at least mathematically, regarded as the best driver ever to have raced in Formula One.

However, his return to the sport after a three-year lay-off has yet to yield the results that many had expected - and hoped for - from the German driver.

The 41-year-old has yet to finish on the podium, never mind win a race, slumping to tenth place in the Drivers' Championship.

This has sparked some debate over whether Schumacher's legacy is being damaged by his return. The German, though, says all is well.

"I do not know if I have to say something to that," Schumacher told Bild when asked what he would say to those who believe he's destroying his reputation.

"Everyone has the right to his own challenges, and I want to build something together with Mercedes.

"Life offers no guarantee for success. You can only do everything so that the best pops out. It's in doing this, we find ourselves."
http://www.planetf1....tee-for-success

Edited by ivand911, 04 September 2010 - 09:14.


#5264 Frans

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 10:09

People make the effort to support their favorite drivers which is totally acceptable, you come and shoot it down like a friggen nazi plane.


Best quote of this thread! :lol:

#5265 aditya-now

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 11:04

Not so small. :) Aditya can you say something good for Michael because we know that according to you he is bad, his fans are bad, place where he race are bad, his wife and children are bad, his dogs are bad, his brother is bad, his father is bad. His 5 titles with Ferrari are bad. What else about him is bad? I am so pity about you and CWA for your suffering, maybe you can sue him? How much you suffer from his fans in racing days in Central Europe. Since when you didn't visit live GP? I can imagine since 1998?


I said already several good things in this thread about him: this year Monaco, Spain and Spa. His best year IMHO 1995. Several excellent races like his famous four-stint race, his rain races or the race where he had only a fifth gear and finished high up.

His titles at Ferrari are not bad, but others would have scored as well with this ideal set-up, at least in 2002 and 2004. In 2003 the FIA helped a little... while 2000 is definitely Michael´s achievement.
I don´t know how you get the idea that his wife, children, dogs, father and brother are bad, this kind of exaggeration does not help your point.

About the famous "Rotkäppchen" fans, they were a pain in the neck and a pain on every track especially in the 90s and early 2000s. Later many Schumacher fans relativated their fanaticism, as they saw the different sides of Michael. Nowadays it is rather civil, but with the performance Michael is showing it is no wonder that they don´t want to stand out so much anymore.

You guys speak about "haters", but the amount of hate you show towards myself and some others is also obvious. So speak for yourself.

#5266 aditya-now

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 11:11

Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Damon lost any claim to the corner when he jumped on the brakes and no longer had a large speed differential when he made his move to pass. It was late and desperate, they were both driving like rookies.


You are always right, Ross.  ;)

It was definitely not wise of Hill to go for it right away, patience would have been more rewarded in this case. Indeed, Damon was frantic like a rookie in that moment (and also in some of the shoot-outs in 1995), I think Schumacher got to him on an emotional level,

#5267 aditya-now

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 11:58

At least Michael was happy after the race. As you know he like odd numbers and 7 is special for him. :) They show good fight between team mates.


A typical post for the bias in this thread. "At least Michael was happy after the race". Whether Rosberg was happy after the race doesn´t count here, it seems. As long as Michael is happy.
And a good show fight between team mates when Michael damages Nico´s front wing. I don´t even want to imagine the outroar here if Nico would have damaged Michael´s front wing. :lol:

Edited by aditya-now, 04 September 2010 - 12:00.


#5268 SparkPlug

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 12:43

Ah, that leaves Jerez 1997, Montreal 1998, Austria 2002, Monaco 2006 and Hungary 2010 for the most obvious examples. But easily you will find excuses for these races as well. Meaning Michael Schumacher is and always has been an angel. And anyone finding fault with Michael is an outright......

Well, he is no angel,infact the same applies for most of the great drivers that I have seen. But he most definitely isnt what you and some others are trying to paint him out to be. You really ought to take a step back and take a look at your own posts, its quite tiring for the rest of the forum to read repetitive hateful posts like you have been making recently. Very soon you will be put in the same category as Frans and CWA (i.e. the category of forummers who eventually everyone starts to ignore and just pities). I hope it doesnt happen though, you are definitely a knowledgeable member and it would be a shame to see it happening to you

#5269 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 12:50

And a good show fight between team mates when Michael damages Nico´s front wing. I don´t even want to imagine the outroar here if Nico would have damaged Michael´s front wing. :lol:

nico almost cut michael's tyre
it was nico to blame for the contact not michael.
nico went offtrack came back and hit a car on the racing line
racing incident but if you want to blame somebody try nico. michael was 99% in front since they touched read wheel rim vs font wing

nico made it too close. hard racing, but a little too close (since they touched). you can be sure he will get the same treatment next time.

#5270 ivand911

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 13:20

A typical post for the bias in this thread. "At least Michael was happy after the race". Whether Rosberg was happy after the race doesn´t count here, it seems. As long as Michael is happy.
And a good show fight between team mates when Michael damages Nico´s front wing. I don´t even want to imagine the outroar here if Nico would have damaged Michael´s front wing. :lol:

I can only comment about Michael, because I see his interview on RTL. I didn't see Risberg interview or maybe I missed it, this is why I can't comment. I suppose he was happy too. But,you are making fast conclusions again. About FW it was discussed , you can go back and read. For me was racing accident and Nico was going into Michael. And he was behind in this moment ,then he need to be careful.

Edited by ivand911, 04 September 2010 - 14:12.


#5271 Fortymark

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 14:18

I can only comment about Michael, because I see his interview on RTL. I didn't see Risberg interview or maybe I missed it, this is why I can't comment. I suppose he was happy too. But,you are making fast conclusions again. About FW it was discussed , you can go back and read. For me was racing accident and Nico was going into Michael. And he was behind in this moment ,then he need to be careful.


We all got bias, that´s just natural.
When I look at the replay I still think that Michael cut his way into Rosberg.
Rosberg was slightly off track by being pushed out by Petrov but he had every right to
get back to the racing line which he did.
Watching the replay
At 46 seconds you can see that Rosberg holds the inside line and Schumacher
comes past but turns in front of him. On the video you can see that Schumacher has
lots of space on his left side.
Rosberg follows the same line as Petrov btw. How of earth can that be Rosberg´s
fault?

The incident is actually a little bit like Vettel and Webber @turkey, Vettel got passed but turned
into Webbers path. Vettel was hit on his rear tyre too = webbers fault ? Hardly imo

Ask yourself, what did Schumacher do to avoid the incident? In your opinion, what should Rosberg have
done? Stay off track and let all cars past before he could rejoined, or Should Rosberg have let MS through
because he had the momentum?


Lets say your traveling on a road and car comes up from behind and he wants to pass you, he starts to overtake
and he´s 90% past you but then he steers into your lane thinking he´s past you. When you touch, is it your fault then?

#5272 ivand911

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 14:38

In the moment they hit(47sec) Nico have 0,5m track to the right and after this he have from the red/white thing. I assume he was having around 1 meter to the right? For me this situation was bad for both, but I think it was dangerous for Michael more if he puncture his tyre there. I don't think Nico lose important part of the FW there, I remember a lot of cases where driver lose aero parts of his car without losing performance. You ask me what Nico have to do in this moment, tell me what Michael have to do there? This was situation where 100% from the drivers will use like he did. If he didn't pass there all will say he is coward(not to use other word starting with P) and is not the same any more. Nico was not off the track when they hit. What Rubens did to avoid incident(with Alonso)? There was life treating accident and here we discuss one not important accident? But ,this is why the forum is. :)

Edited by ivand911, 04 September 2010 - 14:44.


#5273 arknor

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 14:45

In the moment they hit Nico have 0,5m track to the right and after this he have from the red/white thing. I assume he was having around 1 meter to the right? For me this situation was bad for both, but I think it was dangerous for Michael more if he puncture his tyre there. I don't think Nico lose important part of the FW there, I remember a lot of cases where driver lose aero parts of his car without losing performance. You ask me what Nico have to do in this moment, tell me what Michael have to do there? This was situation where 100% from the drivers will use like he did. If he didn't pass there all will say he is coward(not to use other word starting with P) and is not the same any more. Nico was not off the track when they hit. What Rubens did to avoid incident(with Alonso)? There was life treating accident and here we discuss one not important accident? But ,this is why the forum is. :)

when a driver leaves the track and an accident occurs as he rejoins the track its always the person rejoining the track at fault

#5274 Fortymark

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 14:55

In the moment they hit(47sec) Nico have 0,5m track to the right and after this he have from the red/white thing. I assume he was having around 1 meter to the right? For me this situation was bad for both, but I think it was dangerous for Michael more if he puncture his tyre there. I don't think Nico lose important part of the FW there, I remember a lot of cases where driver lose aero parts of his car without losing performance. You ask me what Nico have to do in this moment, tell me what Michael have to do there? This was situation where 100% from the drivers will use like he did. If he didn't pass there all will say he is coward(not to use other word starting with P) and is not the same any more. Nico was not off the track when they hit. What Rubens did to avoid incident(with Alonso)? There was life treating accident and here we discuss one not important accident? But ,this is why the forum is. :)


If Nico has a maximum of 0,5 m then Schumacher has > 2 meters.
Look at the replay and Nico holds the inside line almost all the time when
MS overtakes.

What im saying is that Schumacher should of corse used his momentum to pass Rosberg
but it was totally unnecessary to be so close and even hitting him.
This is the problem with Schumacher, either he´s very bad at judging where his own or other cars are
or he´s having problems with racing fairly closely and I actually believe it´s the latter.

He just can´t race close to somebody without touching them. How many times did he touch
another driver i Canada, GB, Rubens in Hungary and now Rosberg at Spa... ?

#5275 Fortymark

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 15:01

when a driver leaves the track and an accident occurs as he rejoins the track its always the person rejoining the track at fault


And that driver is responsible for the next corners or laps?
Seriously, you´re right if the accidents happens just at that moment when he rejoins.
But in the case with MS and NR, that not accurate.
Rosberg never really left the track and Schumacher was just behind and then to his right.
Watch the replay, Rosberg wasn´t that close to MS. There was at least one car that could fit in
between them... :rolleyes:

#5276 ivand911

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 15:18

Nico left track with all his 4 tyres(44sec). Everything happen for 2-3 sec. Firtst when he came back to the track he return in the middle of the track, when Michael start to overtake him, his right tyre was on white line, when they hit he was 0,5 m inside to the left, he get into Michael. He have enough space not to hit Michael. Second Michael chose his line and he keep it,he barely take the corner(only his right tyres stay on the track). He can't do anything about Nico behind him?

Edited by ivand911, 04 September 2010 - 15:18.


#5277 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 15:24

He just can´t race close to somebody without touching them. How many times did he touch
another driver i Canada, GB, Rubens in Hungary and now Rosberg at Spa... ?

did you really watch hungary?
where did he touch rubens? in your dream?

#5278 Frans

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 15:36

Schumacher simply hit Rosberg, but many Schumacher fans try to defend the man even if he killed someone. Let's face it, the red glasses are turned into silver glasses, and they aren't as fast but still the same. The man is a menace to the other drivers including his teammate who beats the crap out of him, and he needs to accept it, he never had that before so it's understandable how he reacts... I even believe Schumacher hoped to eleminate Rosberg right then and there. Very simple.

#5279 hansmann

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 15:43

We all got bias, that´s just natural.


True, but it's not natural to loose your grip on reality .;)

The incident is actually a little bit like Vettel and Webber @turkey, Vettel got passed but turned
into Webbers path. Vettel was hit on his rear tyre too = webbers fault ? Hardly imo


If there is anything at all that's even remotely similar between those two incidents, can someone explain it to me ?
Apart from Vettel not having been passed, but trying to pass, it happening on a straight, in clean air, no other cars around ?

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#5280 aditya-now

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 20:25

Well, he is no angel,infact the same applies for most of the great drivers that I have seen. But he most definitely isnt what you and some others are trying to paint him out to be. You really ought to take a step back and take a look at your own posts, its quite tiring for the rest of the forum to read repetitive hateful posts like you have been making recently. Very soon you will be put in the same category as Frans and CWA (i.e. the category of forummers who eventually everyone starts to ignore and just pities). I hope it doesnt happen though, you are definitely a knowledgeable member and it would be a shame to see it happening to you


Well, you have me on record, I said that Michael Schumacher is the second best driver of all time to me, after Ayrton Senna, and I stand by my word.

Interestingly, as you can read in the thread http://forums.autosp...howtopic=135053 Senna was neither the best based on the new points system in the 1980s (Prost was) nor in the 1990s (again Prost was, Senna second, Schumacher third). So the perceptions who is the best/second best/third best etc. will always be very subjective - and of course, as this thread looks at the average performances - it still seems a very valid way of measuring performance.
In this intriguing way to measure performance Michael is by the way second best in history after Fangio. And in the 2000s MS is by a big margin the best ahead of Hamilton, Hakkinen and Alonso.
Michael will hold the exclusive distinction to have even competed in the 2010s, so he will be, together with Rubens, Mario Andretti, Graham Hill and Jack Brabham one of the rare drivers to have competed in three different decades. Based on 2010, of course, his average showing in his last decade will not be so good anymore. Still he will overall stay at the top end of this statistics.

Lately, I criticized Schumacher for the Hungaroring incident and for the way how he was "apologizing" to Rubens and then how he was (not) congratulating Rubens on his 300th race. I conceded that Spa was a reasonable race by Michael, one of his best this year, but I cannot see eye to eye with a number of posters here who go ballistic about how great Michael´s driving was in Spa.

My last theme was the redcaps (Rotkäppchen) fans of Schumacher and how this peculiar fan group was always quite painful at the racetracks, while I could not understand the notion "Michael, your best wins are in the future". This is simply unrealistic (for someone who had such great wins in the past) at the age of 41, and it either smells of sentimentality or desperation or unrealism or irony, take your pick.

So I consistently had justified points to make, and the majority of the responses that I got can be reduced to one word: "hater". You are a noble exception among the Schumacher-sided posters here, yet still you resort to the term "hateful posts" - I do not feel hate towards Schumi, but I do find fault with the way the whole propaganda around him happens, how he gets away with seemingly everything, and how, when one makes these things a point, one becomes stigmatized as a "hater".

It reaches the summit heights in posts like the one a while ago, that, according to me, Michael´s wife is bad, Michael´s children are bad, his dogs, his father and brother are all bad. I need not comment on that, as I would never makes such undifferentiated and untrue claims.

The whole point is that Michael himself has always created this divide about him over all the years, and continues to do so. Where did the negativity originate?

I cannot stand the whole business of extolling him to the skies when he is at most average in his showings this year, while, when someone comments realistically on his performance, he is being termed a hater.

As I said a number of posts before: everyone has the right to express their views ("it pertains to both sides") - the pro-Schumacher faction does so amply and has every right to do so, I and a few others comment on the side of Michael that people here don´t want to see or try to excuse away. And I think it is as reasonable to grant this right to both sides, without terming the persons involved "haters" or other negative vocabulary!

Speaking about vocabulary: I try to abstain from any such negative, "low" words, the worst you will hear from me is "Schumacher apologists", and, in response to other posts, I might repeat the "b*llsh*t" another poster has used, which is not an original term I would use.

So please, guys, look at yourselves as well (and/or put me on ignore).

Peace to your hearts


#5281 ivand911

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 20:57

My last theme was the redcaps (Rotkäppchen) fans of Schumacher and how this peculiar fan group was always quite painful at the racetracks, while I could not understand the notion "Michael, your best wins are in the future". This is simply unrealistic (for someone who had such great wins in the past) at the age of 41, and it either smells of sentimentality or desperation or unrealism or irony, take your pick.

It show support, nothing else? But, you don't see it. Who are we/you to judge? When we talk about Santa Claus("simply unrealistic, and it either smells of sentimentality or desperation or unrealism or irony") it doesn't mean he exist? Ooh, you have feelings , we don't? You live in the past, we don't. I am happy what I get from MS. You guys expect more than his fans. And after this to come here and to say how disappointed you are. I have right to be disappointed, because I spend money to support the team. I visit GP, bought MGP official number 3 cap. But, I am not disappointed. 7 or 8 titles what is the difference? I would like Michael to stay 3 years in F1 without title than only 1 year with title. What I will do with his titles? I want him on the track, good or bad on the track. :) We are here for discussion like with Forty some posts ago, not to talk about 1994 or else. What to discuss decided things?

Edited by ivand911, 04 September 2010 - 21:03.


#5282 aditya-now

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 21:05

It show support, nothing else? But, you don't see it. Who are we/you to judge? When we talk about Santa Claus("simply unrealistic, and it either smells of sentimentality or desperation or unrealism or irony") it doesn't mean he exist? Ooh, you have feelings , we don't? You live in the past, we don't. I am happy what I get from MS. You guys expect more than his fans. And after this to come here and to say how disappointed you are. I have right to be disappointed, because I spend money to support the team. I visit GP, bought MGP official number 3 cap. But, I am not disappointed. 7 or 8 titles what is the difference? I would like Michael to stay 3 years in F1 without title than only 1 year with title. What I will do with his titles?


I get your point, ivan911. To support your driver is great, and please excuse me if I am bit unnerved in the case of Schumacher fans, who have a record of being the most obnoxious of the whole bunch. Indeed there are innocent and kind fans as well, just wanting to cheer their idol.

The point about Santa Claus is the age of those involved who believe in him.

I live in the past and you don't? Interesting assertion, I thought I see the Schumacher of 2010 and that's why you, amongst others, becomes so apologetic.

I am indeed disappointed in how MGP seem to be going backwards, they are obviously only the number 7 or 8 among the teams right now (only good wet weather driving by Nico and Michael as well as good race strategy this time around) prevented them from showing much further back in Spa.

7 or 8 titles, what is the difference? Well, why do you think Michael has come back? What did he announce before the season? Did he really just come for the fun?

To be very frank with you, Ivan, I know that you cannot do anything with Michael's titles, and you can be sure Michael does not care. He is living according to his own laws.

#5283 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 13:24

I said already several good things in this thread about him: this year Monaco, Spain and Spa. His best year IMHO 1995. Several excellent races like his famous four-stint race, his rain races or the race where he had only a fifth gear and finished high up.

His titles at Ferrari are not bad, but others would have scored as well with this ideal set-up, at least in 2002 and 2004. In 2003 the FIA helped a little... while 2000 is definitely Michael´s achievement.
I don´t know how you get the idea that his wife, children, dogs, father and brother are bad, this kind of exaggeration does not help your point.

About the famous "Rotkäppchen" fans, they were a pain in the neck and a pain on every track especially in the 90s and early 2000s. Later many Schumacher fans relativated their fanaticism, as they saw the different sides of Michael. Nowadays it is rather civil, but with the performance Michael is showing it is no wonder that they don´t want to stand out so much anymore.

You guys speak about "haters", but the amount of hate you show towards myself and some others is also obvious. So speak for yourself.


Aditya nobody hates you. I just find it hard to watch/read that a man with as much intellectual abilities as your self (I'm not brown nosing here, trust me) often has to bait others in order to prove a point or to wind them up.

I've said this before, you're far too intelligent for that and it undermines your credibility when you engage the rabid fan boys to wind them up.

The same applies for the poster 'man' too. I don't know why you guys do it. :up:



#5284 aditya-now

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 22:49

The same applies for the poster 'man' too. I don't know why you guys do it. :up:


Good question.

Anyway, thanks for your perspective :up: - it is indeed not the wisest thing "to wind up rabid fan boys" - and also, no amount of discussion will usually change the way how human beings look at reality. As we have seen, there is two sides on Michael, neither of which can convince the other side of their point of view, and then there are the wiser, milder and more seasoned "observers" like yourself, who usually refrain from taking sides and offer interesting posts, if not as frequently as the ones who are taking the pro and con sides.

So I might disengage a little from the Michael Schumacher thread, although the man is a phenomenon, no matter from which side you approach him. Let´s see if I will be disciplined enough to stay away from that drug and come here only every now and then to offer my comments. ;)

Now, on Jochen Rindt's 40th death anniversary, some personal words:

Coincidentally, Jochen was my first real F1 hero, before Lauda, Pironi, Villeneuve and Senna. You can imagine that, having had to deal with Jochen's, Villeneuve's and Senna's deaths as well as the accidents of Lauda and Pironi (and later the death of Pironi in the Speedboat) I nearly dropped all my interest in following the sport in 1994. Never could I emotionally appreciate a driver again like I did with Jochen, Niki, Gilles, Didier and Ayrton.

This may explain a little how I was perhaps, on a subconscious level, traumatized by the appearance of Michael Schumacher at the loss of Senna - after all the positive fandom I had for Rindt, Lauda, Villeneuve, Pironi and Senna was gone, I might have become a kind of "anti-fan" of Schumacher - the positive emotional energy I felt for those five was replaced by pain, and I might still project that pain on Schumacher.

That's my deep psychological explanation, and lets suffice to say as much.

I do not feel hate for Schumacher, indeed I sincerely admire his admirable achievements, as I detest certain of his other traits. And I do wish him one more victory in a GP (it will be, if it happens, one of the most celebrated victories ever), before he leaves. Hopefully he will be able to leave the sport unscathed.


RIP Jochen 40 years ago

#5285 Ducks McTeeth

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 02:19

Frans is my hero. Now where is my McCrocket?

#5286 Galko877

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 07:09

My last theme was the redcaps (Rotkäppchen) fans of Schumacher and how this peculiar fan group was always quite painful at the racetracks, while I could not understand the notion "Michael, your best wins are in the future". This is simply unrealistic (for someone who had such great wins in the past) at the age of 41, and it either smells of sentimentality or desperation or unrealism or irony, take your pick.


I have seen "painful" fans among each and every drivers's fans, but most of the fans who go to races are there for the fun and usually there is a pretty great atmosphere among fans at races, no matter who supports who. Seriously, I think you are projecting your own ill feelings on other people.


#5287 Galko877

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 07:28

Baddog mentioned cheering for ones heroes.


I too have attended various sporting events in my life with friends, but nothing has ever driven me to make stupid posters for the athletes/teams I support, stand in line for ages to see them or to get their autographs or scream like crazy when said athletes show up. Quite frankly, I pity anyone who behaves like that.



However you spend quite a lot of time on an Internet forum discussing something like Formula One, following it on TV and so on. It's not like that is so much more of an "adult thing" to do.... Let's face it: sports, following a sport, supporting sports teams and athletes is a childish thing to do. So anyone who is spending time here on this forum isn't really in the position to look down on other people because of "childish" things you have described. Following F1 - or any sport for that matter - is childish in itself. But it's fun. Why don't you do something more useful with your time than watching F1 on TV and spending time here, if you are such a serious guy?

#5288 Frans

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 08:04

I'd wish I was a child forever .... At least I try it ... :lol:

#5289 scarletf12002

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 08:54

It show support, nothing else? But, you don't see it. Who are we/you to judge? When we talk about Santa Claus("simply unrealistic, and it either smells of sentimentality or desperation or unrealism or irony") it doesn't mean he exist? Ooh, you have feelings , we don't? You live in the past, we don't. I am happy what I get from MS. You guys expect more than his fans. And after this to come here and to say how disappointed you are. I have right to be disappointed, because I spend money to support the team. I visit GP, bought MGP official number 3 cap. But, I am not disappointed. 7 or 8 titles what is the difference? I would like Michael to stay 3 years in F1 without title than only 1 year with title. What I will do with his titles? I want him on the track, good or bad on the track. :) We are here for discussion like with Forty some posts ago, not to talk about 1994 or else. What to discuss decided things?


:up:

#5290 Buttoneer

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 09:47

Discussion getting a bit e-existentialist at the moment. Back to Schumacher perhaps?

#5291 Muz Bee

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 22:33

Topic disintegrates into fatuous ramblings......

Actually since Spa there seems to have been just a polarised stupidity dominating. Oh well it usually comes down to that when the subject is one of the hallowed ones. I think the Schumacher fans have a right to be agrieved by the senseless whining about Michael's pass on Nico. The discussion tended to be well into the territory of ridiculous as clearly neither Mercedes driver seemed aggrieved greatly. If neither driver was aggrieved then why does the band start up here? Clearly a racing incident of no great consequence even if they were team mates. The fact that Michael is one of the hardest so-of-a-bitches ever in F1 shouldn't make any difference to how one viewed that "incident".

Nico spanked him in the end and got the last laugh anyway. This track was Michael's best chance and he turned in his best drive so far of his comeback.

#5292 chrisblades85

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 22:34

Discussion getting a bit e-existentialist at the moment. Back to Schumacher perhaps?



Let's.

And we should all admit he is the best driver in the world. And everyone should stop being in denial. :stoned: :eek:

#5293 aditya-now

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:01

Nico spanked him in the end and got the last laugh anyway. This track was Michael's best chance and he turned in his best drive so far of his comeback.


This.


#5294 ivand911

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:55

Michael on-board adventures from Spa:
http://rutube.ru/tra...fee7a3e0202c852

#5295 arknor

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 07:10

Topic disintegrates into fatuous ramblings......

Actually since Spa there seems to have been just a polarised stupidity dominating. Oh well it usually comes down to that when the subject is one of the hallowed ones. I think the Schumacher fans have a right to be agrieved by the senseless whining about Michael's pass on Nico. The discussion tended to be well into the territory of ridiculous as clearly neither Mercedes driver seemed aggrieved greatly. If neither driver was aggrieved then why does the band start up here? Clearly a racing incident of no great consequence even if they were team mates. The fact that Michael is one of the hardest so-of-a-bitches ever in F1 shouldn't make any difference to how one viewed that "incident".

Nico spanked him in the end and got the last laugh anyway. This track was Michael's best chance and he turned in his best drive so far of his comeback.

nico didnt spank anyone...

you didnt see the 2 back markers in eua rouge that michael had to lift off for...

how do you think nico gained 2 places from a safety car restart? look at the race again schumachers in 6th place yet hes not the 6th car behind the safety car because the safety car didnt signal to let backmarkers go past the safety car.

this forums a waste of time because people just post any old crap to wind people up even when they obviously know the facts they just ignore them

#5296 Bleu

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 07:53

The lapped cars are no longer allowed to overtake. Hasn't happened in other races this year either.


#5297 arknor

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 08:08

The lapped cars are no longer allowed to overtake. Hasn't happened in other races this year either.

the safety car can switch on some lights which signal to them they are alowed to pass british commentator brundle has mentioned it many times this year

#5298 Craven Morehead

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 08:26

Michael on-board adventures from Spa:
http://rutube.ru/tra...fee7a3e0202c852


That was awesome! On board with the Schu round Spa in mixed conditions. What a great track. :up: I think the video also clearly shows this:

1. Rosberg falls completely off the road and Michael goes by giving him plenty of space, but Niko cuts back across the track and hits him.

2. Near the end the two are running side by side and Niko effectively punts Michael off the road, leaving not a foot of space for Michael's car.

In both cases, remarkably hard driving against one's team mate I would think.

#5299 chrisblades85

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 08:33

nico didnt spank anyone...

you didnt see the 2 back markers in eua rouge that michael had to lift off for...

how do you think nico gained 2 places from a safety car restart? look at the race again schumachers in 6th place yet hes not the 6th car behind the safety car because the safety car didnt signal to let backmarkers go past the safety car.

this forums a waste of time because people just post any old crap to wind people up even when they obviously know the facts they just ignore them



I wouldn't say it's a waste of time. But it gives the Schumi bashers a real chance to flex their muscles as his comeback hasn't gone as good as it could. But I bet half of them, if they saw him would be the first, if they saw him, to go running up to him. Push him over, just to get an autograph. I've seen middle ages men to that. And it's not good.

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#5300 aditya-now

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 09:53

nico didnt spank anyone...

you didnt see the 2 back markers in eua rouge that michael had to lift off for...

how do you think nico gained 2 places from a safety car restart? look at the race again schumachers in 6th place yet hes not the 6th car behind the safety car because the safety car didnt signal to let backmarkers go past the safety car.


You make me smile, arknor. How do you think Michael gained Nico´s place in the first place if not by Petrov blocking Nico. So Spa was really a case of tit-for-that and Michael got beaten in the end. The use of the word "spanked him" is debatable, as you point out.

On to Monza, one of Michael´s all time classic tracks!


But I bet half of them, if they saw him would be the first, if they saw him, to go running up to him. Push him over, just to get an autograph. I've seen middle ages men to that. And it's not good.


It´s an interesting assertion, as it is a funny habit anyway to collect other people´s signature. So apart from that oddity, why should someone who does not like Schumacher do that? Also the strategy of first pushing him over to secondly get an autograph does maybe not have the best chances of success...

;)

Edited by aditya-now, 07 September 2010 - 09:59.